And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks

[domer]

Dare understand before ye speak, Crane.

[Plane]

The Israelis did all they could to remove Palestinians from their land or to cause them to flee. After they fled, they were banned from returning.

Pretty much pure hyperbole there, but whatever makes you feel better, Xo

I don't think so , there are some facts that lean n the direction XO is pointing.
The failing that lead to the long running hostility was and is human failing, and can be perceived as the fault of either side.

[sirs]

I don't think so , there are some facts that lean n the direction XO is pointing.  The failing that lead to the long running hostility was and is human failing, and can be perceived as the fault of either side.

I do Plane, in that while conceding that Isreal's foreign policy positions as it relates to the Palestinians, are indeed harsh, and can be called unfair, that was not how it was in the beginning.  There was no effort on the part of Isreal for them to do "all they could do", to rid the region of Palestinians.  If that were the case, they'd be long gone by now, with the type superior firepower they have.  Could have layed waste to Gaza.  The fact is they did try initially.  But the spector of constant attacks and wars, have apparently hardened the position of Israel, as it relates to Palestinians & their Arab neighbors.  The pledges of seeing Isreal cease to exist, while other Arab nations that have a "treaty" with Isreal, do zip to curb those public pledges in the destruction of Isreal, does little to help soften that stance.  And the idea Isreal to simply give land for a "promise of peace" has been shown to be pretty much a non-starter as well

No Plane, I'm going to have to differ with you on this one.  While I agree Isreal is no saint in this picture, neither are they actively trying to ethnically clense the region of Palestinians.  The mere fact of the Palestinian population growing should demonstrate that fallicy

[_JS]

Interesting.

Right now we know that Sirs proposition that Israel is surrounded by enemies who refuse to acknowledge her existence is false. We also know that Jordan does take in Palestinian refugees and regardless of that, it is still not an excuse for Israeli apartheid policies.

So we're left with an historical argument from both Domer and Sirs. History, according to Sirs and Domer justifies the actions of Israel, which are, even according to both of you, "harsh" and "unfair."

For Sirs there is a minor side argument that Israel is not involved in genocide. I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China, as the South African Government wasn't involved in genocide either (they needed the blacks for manual labour and essentially for basic jobs to run the economy of the nation). That of course did not justify the actions of apartheid, but I suppose that Prime Minister Botha could have stood up and said, "with our superior firepower we haven't engaged in genocide. Look at the growth of the black population as evidence."

What a bone chilling statement to make. What a disgusting line of thought.


I was watching a documentary on Nelson Mandela's life. A very good documentary and it showed the Sharpeville Massacre, surprisingly well-documented by the Nationalist Government. At that point Mandela and the ANC realised that peaceful demonstration would not work by itself. Colonel Pienaar, issued a statement on behalf of the Government that day:

The Native mentality does not allow them to gather for a peaceful demonstration. For them to gather means violence.

At Sharpeville, the blacks gathered to burn their passes. These were passes they had to carry by law, which police could check at any time. Without them you could be imprisoned. These are no different than the documents Palestinians must carry in Israel. And of course, "security" was the same reason given for carrying them. The demonstration was peaceful, but as the above mentality of the Government was seen, it didn't matter.

What amazes me is that given the current situation in the Middle East, either of you are willing to take the most nationalist version of Israeli politics. Mind you, not all Israelis believe in what you do. In fact, it is more popular in the United States than in Israel. It is the wrong side of history and that's fine, I don't doubt that in previous decades you'd have both supported nationalist South Africa.

Either gripped by the power of his new-found Catholicism or deluded into righteousness by his pseudo-intellectualism, JS persists in his misapprehension of the Israeli-Palestinian problem. I scoff at his comparisons. In fact the Holocaust and the events in its wake are unique in the history of mankind, fully understood, and should not be trivialized. While I don't have close enough knowledge to bespeak what position I would take on particular Israeli policies, some of which I deplore, I can however see the larger picture of the absolutely essential nature of security in the life of the Israeli nation. Further, the morality of the settlement of "Israel" cannot be understood without a full comprehension of the history leading up to it. While the maelstrom of 1947-1949 may reveal bona fides to some degree, the historical backdrop against which those events are assessed provides little succor for the Palestinians. Denying in the strongest terms possible that the Jewish resurgence in Palestine can rightly be called a war of aggression, the latter means of ascent is a "storied" avenue to nationhood. Just ask any American Indian.

Domer, you can attack whatever institution you wish. You may call me whatever name you wish. I won't even pretend to be the most intelligent person around. You may scoff all you like.

I love Jewish and Muslim people as my brothers and sisters. I grew up with an ingrained guilt for the Holocaust from my German mother. I've been to Dachau and as one of the most unemotional people you will meet, I still get emotional when I watch a documentary or film on any aspect of the Holocaust. It was an amazing testament to man's incredible cruelty to his fellow man.

If you want statistics we can get into those:

5 to 6 million Jews
2 million (non-Jewish) Poles
1 million Roma
200,000 to 300,000 disabled
100,000 Communists
5,000 Jehova's Witnesses

Civilians Killed:

3.5 to 5 million Slavs
2.5 to 4 million Soviet POW's
1 to 1.5 million Political dissidents
3 million Soviet slave labourers


In Croatia:

500,000 to 1.2 million Serbs

A few things should be made clear. The Israeli Government is not the same as the Jewish people. It does not necessarily represent the survivors of the Holocaust. as can be seen here and here.

Further, the morality of the settlement of "Israel" cannot be understood without a full comprehension of the history leading up to it.

Quite honestly I don't think you or Sirs has a fair view of that history.

In fact the Holocaust and the events in its wake are unique in the history of mankind, fully understood, and should not be trivialized

I don't trivialize the Holocaust, but I think you trivialize other historical brutalities and even defend injustices when you defend the Israeli Government. Yes, Israel exists, but it doesn't need to exist as it is with a Government that practices bigotry and apartheid. You might as well carry a picture of Botha or Strom Thurmond in your wallet.

[domer]

Your outrage, my friend, thus modulated is more admirable but nonetheless unwise. My sense of history and the temper of the times indicates grave danger in a snowballing effort to condemn Israeli excesses when their just and justifable policies of security themselves may be the edifice that actually crumbles in the onslaught. It is a volatile situation, as I see it: any sustained, vitriolic critique of Israel could ignite a bloodlust of anti-Semitism, an attempt to reprise what the Nazis did not finish. To me this is palpable. Unfortunately, imperfect choices are all we have in this most compelling of modern (all-time) tragedies ... until the day shall come ....

[_JS]

It is an unjust bias Domer, that cannot see the Israeli Government as a separate entity from the Jewish people. There are, after all, as many (or more depending upon one's source) Jews in the United States as Israel. Europe is becoming a new area for growth of Jewish populations, which to me is something wonderful to see. The European Union's work on securing human rights and working very hard to stem nationalism is hopefully a testament to this population growth, which includes Germany itself.

Rightly criticizing Israel cannot be considered the same as igniting anti-semitism. Whether or not you have some Hegelian or Marxist world view that leads you to believe that a fascist reprisal will occur to "finish the job" I cannot comment upon. The forces of history are what they are.

To me it is a struggle of oppressed people. If apartheid policies were wrong in South Africa then they are wrong in Israel as well. While ivory tower elitists discuss how these policies make them safer and it certainly makes the middle class and upper class of Israel breathe easier (and live a little better), it is really no different than the whites of South Africa. You might want to get into historical justification (and I'm sure the Nationalists had their fair share), but you tell that to the Palestinian children you're killing through privation.

Sirs can tell them that at least it isn't genocide (by the way, privation is counted in nearly all the Holocaust statistics) 5 to 6 million Jews were not gassed or even killed by gunshot. Much of the death was from disease and privation in the ghettoes (which is a good indicator and should count in my opinion).

You tell them that their land and property are gone because of the Holocaust, something for which they had nothing to do with. You tell them that their neighborhoods are bulldozed because of a war that took place sixty-two years ago and Holocaust survivors for which the Israeli government doesn't even do a good job keeping up.

Tell them that racism and bigotry are acceptable because you have to defend against anti-semitism.

Tell them that they should act non-violently while they are being killed and taken for everything they have.

Tell them you support democracy, freedom, and human rights, unless it is Israel depriving them of that, in which case it is perfectly acceptable.

[domer]

I expect more from you, JS.

[Michael Tee]

<< . . .  Europe conducted a much larger genocide for a couple hundred years before Dauchau.   . . .  Giving purposely poxed blankets to women and children was a cold, directed, bottom-line decision, and equals any SS moral depravity.>>

That's just outrageous.  There were plenty of isolated acts of mass murder by settlers in one place or another directed against the Indians, but there was never a top-down decision from the highest level to exterminate every single one of them, to wipe out an entire race.  They were always being pushed back off their land, robbed and murdered, but other land was always being set aside for them, shitty though it may have been.  Nobody ever planned and executed a policy of pure murder to exterminate the whole race.

I could never defend what was done to the Indians any more than I could defend slavery, they're both monstrous crimes, on a gigantic scale, but to compare either of them to the Holocaust is ridiculous.  And no, I DON'T think the Holocaust justifies the oppression of the Palestinians.  But it provides a whole lot of historical context.  Whatever the fight is now, it began as miserable victim against miserable victim, probably the saddest and most desperate struggle on earth.

If the problem is going to be resolved - - and it is certainly capable of resolution, because no one side is all right and no one side is all wrong - - it will not be the extremists on either side who resolve it.  One of the problems standing in the way of a sensible resolution is the mindless, ignorant cheerleading from non-involved partisans, demonizing one side and cheering on the other as if this were some kind of sporting event.  A lot more people than you might think are engaged in a slow, patient exploration of possibilities, in bridge-building and reconciliation; mostly out of the limelight.  With time and a lot of luck, they might be able to pull it off.

[Plane]

Right now we know that Sirs proposition that Israel is surrounded by enemies who refuse to acknowledge her existence is false.

Well yes ,with the qualifier of "right now" you have a valid statement.

Egypt and Jordan struggled with Israel for a while before reaching settlement , motly settlements that required mutual sacrifice.

So is the process ongoing?

[sirs]

Right now we know that Sirs proposition that Israel is surrounded by enemies who refuse to acknowledge her existence is false.

Well yes ,with the qualifier of "right now" you have a valid statement.  Egypt and Jordan struggled with Israel for a while before reaching settlement , motly settlements that required mutual sacrifice.

We also have the qualifier that those few countries that have recognized Isreal's right to exist, or have a treaty with Isreal, do absolutely squat in curbing the violence aimed directly at them by those Arab nations & terrorists that don't.  Nor do they lift a finger in helping to relocate any of the Palestinians, which includes immigrant policies far more harsher than ours, in preventing Palestinians from becoming citizens of their countries.  So, in essensce my statement is still valid, if not technically accurate

[Henny]

We also have the qualifier that those few countries that have recognized Isreal's right to exist, or have a treaty with Isreal, do absolutely squat in curbing the violence aimed directly at them by those Arab nations & terrorists that don't.

Sirs, you are absolutely wrong in this statement. Please give some examples of what you think these countries are doing (or not doing).

[sirs]

We also have the qualifier that those few countries that have recognized Isreal's right to exist, or have a treaty with Isreal, do absolutely squat in curbing the violence aimed directly at them by those Arab nations & terrorists that don't.

Sirs, you are absolutely wrong in this statement. Please give some examples of what you think these countries are doing (or not doing).

Immigration policies to inhibit if not prevent Palestinians from becoming citizens of their countries.  Little to no finiancial aide to relocate for those that wish to relocate.  Little to no Public/Governmental condemnation of organizations like Hamas, and denouncing terrorist attacks on Isreal.  Little to no military action in trying to disarm or take down organizations like Hamas.  Shall I go on?  Or please, show me how I'm wrong.  Show me how these countries are actively trying to stop the Arab/muslim lead attacks on Isreal, while also trying to help find places for the Palestinians to live, besides Isreal.  Or are you going to rationalize why they don't do precisely what I've outlined above as examples?

[Henny]

Immigration policies to inhibit if not prevent Palestinians from becoming citizens of their countries.  Little to no finiancial aide to relocate for those that wish to relocate.  Little to no Public/Governmental condemnation of organizations like Hamas, and denouncing terrorist attacks on Isreal.  Little to no military action in trying to disarm or take down organizations like Hamas.  Shall I go on?  Or please, show me how I'm wrong.  Show me how these countries are actively trying to stop the Arab/muslim lead attacks on Isreal, while also trying to help find places for the Palestinians to live, besides Isreal.  Or are you going to rationalize why they don't do precisely what I've outlined above as examples?

First of all, I wasn't questioning the policies regarding helping Palestinians relocate. Just about countries that have treaties with Israel helping to stop attacks against them.

Now we're talking about Jordan and Egypt. I am very well aware of everything that Jordan does to stop attacks on Israel and Israeli citizens, and they are truly the best neighbor that Israel could possibly have. Egypt is a little more murky - they have a host of internal problems they are unable to control, let alone Israel's problems.

Now, before I get started, could you please specify what Jordan and Egypt are NOT DOING for Israel?

[sirs]

First of all, I wasn't questioning the policies regarding helping Palestinians relocate. Just about countries that have treaties with Israel helping to stop attacks against them.

First of all, that's precisely part of my point about who actually is and isn't trying to help the whole Israeli/Arab conflict, which includes the disposition of the Palestinians, not just the attacks against Israel

Now we're talking about Jordan and Egypt. I am very well aware of everything that Jordan does to stop attacks on Israel and Israeli citizens, and they are truly the best neighbor that Israel could possibly have. Egypt is a little more murky - they have a host of internal problems they are unable to control, let alone Israel's problems.  Now, before I get started, could you please specify what Jordan and Egypt are NOT DOING for Israel?

Lemme see if I have this straight.  I get chastised because I referenced Israel as practically surrounded by enemies that wish to cease it to exist, while only 2 of them, you even conceding that 1 is "murky") are the reasons I was supposedly debunked?  When I stated that "The pledges of seeing Israel cease to exist, while other Arab nations that have a "treaty" with Israel, do zip to curb those public pledges in the destruction of Israel, does little to help soften that stance" somehow has no merit??  What i don't see ANYONE doing Miss Henny, much less Jordan and Egypt is publically condemn folks like Hamas, publically pledge to help stop such attacks by folks like Hamas, provide logistical and intelligence assistance in taking out Terrorist cells and leaders.  It amazes me how everytime I see an Arab leader asked if he'll denounce Terrorist attacks on Israel, they unanimously respond "we denounce all terrorist activities, including what Israel......".  They never can focus on the Arab side of the equation. 

I am absolutely convinced that if ALL attacks on Israel were to cease, and that all the surrounding Arab Governments would acknowledge Israel's right to exist right where it is, and pledge to go after any terrorist cells that took some pot shots at Israel, Israel would never bulldoze another Palestinian home.  They could even go back to their '47 borders,

What they can't do is to allow the Palestinians to become a governing part of Israel, for the simple reason that if that were to occur, the majority of Palestinians could, over time, simply vote out all the Israeli elements of Israel ---> Israel ceases to exist.  Which again is the foundation to this whole debacle.  So the "right of return" is basically a non-starter, in that it's simply a slower, less militaristic means of destroying Israel.  If we're not going to get any other country to open their borders to the Palestinians in becoming citizens of their country, what we need to shoot for are basically 2 items, as I see it;
1) Separate Palestinian and Israeli lands, completely sovereign unto themselves, with their own governments, immigration polices, economy, etc.
2) Public treaties by the surrounding Arab nations (not just 2) demonstrating once and for all, Israel's right to exist

and until we get pledges by many other Arab nations to assist in stopping terrorist attacks on Israel, I see no reason for Israel to relinquish any lands they acquired in defending themselves the 1st few go arounds with those Arabs wishing to see Israel cease to exist

[Henny]

First of all, that's precisely part of my point about who actually is and isn't trying to help the whole Israeli/Arab conflict, which includes the disposition of the Palestinians, not just the attacks against Israel

Ok, we've already discussed this. Jordan does do everything to help with the issue. Truly, I'm not aware of Egypt's policies. The rest of the Arab world gives them residency, not citizenship.

Lemme see if I have this straight.  I get chastised because I referenced Israel as practically surrounded by enemies that wish to cease it to exist, while only 2 of them, you even conceding that 1 is "murky") are the reasons I was supposedly debunked? 

Egypt's treaties are not murky. I said that they have internal problems (such as poverty beyond your wildest imagination) and they are focusing internally to fix their own problems. That goes a long way in the security of Israel, believe me.

When I stated that "The pledges of seeing Israel cease to exist, while other Arab nations that have a "treaty" with Israel, do zip to curb those public pledges in the destruction of Israel, does little to help soften that stance" somehow has no merit??  What i don't see ANYONE doing Miss Henny, much less Jordan and Egypt is publically condemn folks like Hamas, publically pledge to help stop such attacks by folks like Hamas, provide logistical and intelligence assistance in taking out Terrorist cells and leaders.  It amazes me how everytime I see an Arab leader asked if he'll denounce Terrorist attacks on Israel, they unanimously respond "we denounce all terrorist activities, including what Israel......".  They never can focus on the Arab side of the equation. 

You know what Sirs, it's not my fault that you don't see things. And yet you come into a debate saying that because you don't see certain things they don't exist. That is faulty reasoning.

Let's discuss where I'm knowledgeable - Jordan.

I read the newspapers here - in Arabic. The King denounces Hamas and Hizbollah and their actions on a regular basis. He also condemned Zarqawi's actions in Iraq.

But let's talk about the meat of the issue - what does Jordan DO? I mean, a leader can condemn all day long, and the words are meaningless without action to support it.

Jordan has some of the best intelligence in the world - trained by America. They work regularly with America and Israel to root out any local terrorist issues BEFORE they happen, and we often read about thwarted terrorist plots against international interests in Jordan.

Driving to areas bordering Israel is a blast. 10, 15, sometimes even 20 miles before the border, you start getting to security checkpoints. Everyone gets out of the car. The car is searched top to bottom, inside and out. (For God's sake, the last time we went to the Umm Qays (next door to the Golan Heights and the northern border crossing), they practically dismantled my son's car seat to make sure we didn't have a bomb in it.) These searches are not just for those going over the border, but even for those just going near the border. By the time you get anywhere near the Israeli border, you've been searched 4 or 5 different times.

The Jordanian military has posts along the entire border with Israel - and the Israeli military is on the other side of the border. This is a double line of defense to ensure that potential threats don't slip across the border.

Whenever an Israeli crosses into Jordan for any reason (tourism, business, personal trip, etc.) they are offered a police escort to their destination, and further security if they feel threatened. If an entire tour bus comes across the border, the police escort is mandatory.

Moreover, after the hotel bombing a few years back, security has become the best business in town. If you go to a hotel, a large grocery store, the mall, or even a nice restaurant, you will be frisked, have your bags searched and go through a metal detector. These security measures are to protect everyone - Jordanians and foreigners. (I've been wondering for ages why we didn't see this kind of security in the States a long time ago?) Oh yeah, and if you try to park in a parking garage... again, get out of the car while they search inside and out. Oh gee, I forgot the explosive sniffing dogs everywhere you go.

But I forgot... you've never SEEN any of this Sirs, so it doesn't exist.

I am absolutely convinced that if ALL attacks on Israel were to cease, and that all the surrounding Arab Governments would acknowledge Israel's right to exist right where it is, and pledge to go after any terrorist cells that took some pot shots at Israel, Israel would never bulldoze another Palestinian home.  They could even go back to their '47 borders,

Nice rose-colored glasses you have there.