DebateGate

Being humiliated is NOT torture.

On the contrary, a United Nations definition of torture in a 1987 treaty to which the United States is a signee (called UNCAT) the following is the formal definition of torture.

1. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Notice that the pain or suffering can be mental and certainly humiliation can be severe enough to be considered torture. Also notice another interesting aspect of UNCAT in Article 2:

2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

Just something to note for later.

And taking prisoners during a time of war, does not translate into requiring automatic legal representation nor full geneva convention protections if the enemy has chosen not to abide by the requirements of being protected by them

There is no war. That's the problem. There is a policy of internment and that's nothing new or creative. It is also not very effective.

Yes, but just as the President of Iran uses the holocaust to meet his own political ends. I suggest that many others use the holocaust, or false indignation surrounding the holocaust to meet their own political ends.

How many people here were actively discussing or reading about the holocaust before the Iranian President spoke about it? Before the term "Islamofascist" came into the lexicon? Before the Israeli/Lebanese war?

Just rhetorical questions that require no answer, but I suggest that using the holocaust as a political tool in such a manner, is little better than the manner in which the Iranian President uses it.

It is interesting to note that we look at Iran in horror (and rightly so) when they refute the holocaust. It is actually a crime in many European countries and is a European Union crime as well to refute that the Holocaust ever took place. There were many who suffered in the chambers of the Nazi Death camps, some who rarely get mentioned and some who were devestated (especially the European Jewish communities). The Germans weren't alone in their anti-semitism, nor in their war crimes of rounding up people for certain death.

What is rarely expressed is that there were other atrocities, for which refutation is common, yet no condemnation is afforded. It is one of those bizarre double standards. A good example is the Rape of Nanking and the pillaging and rape of the Korean people by the Japanese Imperial military. There is little doubt that both events took place. In fact, Nanking was well-documented by both major Chinese factions (nationalists and Communists) as well as foreign reporters, including Americans and Brits. Yet, Japanese professors who taught it were punished. History books made no mention of it (or the rape of Korea) and the American government and American people rarely spoke against it.

Imagine Germany doing the same thing?

The other good example is the Ottoman Turk genocide of the Armenian people, for which only academic pressure has been placed on Turkey to even acknowledge and they still do not. In fact, Turkish professors still maintain that the Ottoman military attempted to "save" the Armenians but that the Allied powers prevented them from doing so. Due to Turkey's strategic importance and non-Islamist government there is little pressure on them to even acknowledge the genocide ever took place.

So, I find a lot of people's ire about Iran's comments simply false indignation only to bolster support for a very undemocratic Israeli regime. Or, simply to throw mud at the Iranians, and using the holocaust as a means to an end.

Typical politics of the self-interested.

Civilizations do not fall to the power of enemies.

Really? And just how did the Byzantine Empire fall?

I don't know; who is? Where is the voice of the "moderate"? I do not read them in any newspaper source. Do you? Where are the Muslim "moderates" who will speak up?

Ever wonder why you don't read about them in newspapers? How many newspapers would make good copy by reporting on moderate Islam? What newspapers do you read?

Let me research it, but my soon to be sister-in-law is from the Northwest Territories and we were just discussing the topic two weekends ago. (I know it is hearsay, let me see what I can find).

Of note is that the Canadian system is much different than most of the European systems. It is really different than most any system. Interestingly, some Americans like to talk about states rights (well they used to before they needed to dispense with it to get W elected), but Canadian Provinces have far more independence than any US state. The Canadian Healthcare system has variations amongst the provinces.

No, he was making a joke in a situation where the butt of the joke is not a part of a an unstable or violent region.

Note that there have been some on the right wing in the United States who have called for violence against President Chavez. I'd hardly call them responsible, mature adults.

Yes, yes

President Bush is such a victim of double standards.

Let's all join together and whinge some more for the difficulties faced by President Bush.

Maybe Laura will bake him some cookies and make him feel better since that mean ol' Chavez hurt his feelings.

Quite frankly, when you attempt to remove a duly elected leader of a nation through dubious means, then your president can stand to be the butt of a few jokes.

Moreover, given the United States history with Latin America and our less than sterling record to which Bush has so generously added his own name, be grateful that Chavez and others have such a good sense of humour as opposed to the long memory that other areas of the world have.