DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on September 20, 2008, 11:26:07 PM
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By Lee-Anne Goodman, The Canadian Press
WASHINGTON - Canadian journalist Heather Mallick is facing an ugly onslaught from the U.S. right-wing media and its fans for an online column she wrote maligning Sarah Palin as "white trash."
The Sept. 5 column on CBC.ca, entitled "A Mighty Wind Blows Through the Republican Convention," had already been on the receiving end of vitriol from some Canadian news organizations.
But Fox News picked up on it this week, and unleashed its full fury on Mallick for stating that Palin, the Republicans' vice-presidential nominee, appeals to "the white trash vote" with her "toned-down version of the porn actress look."
Mallick says those comments pale in comparison to the abuse that's come her way in the wake of the column. She's been called a "pig" by Fox News anchor Greta Van Susteren, has been branded an insane Pakistani Muslim by commentators on Fox message boards and has received violent and threatening email, some of which include anti-Semitic slurs - despite the fact that she's neither Jewish nor Muslim.
"I'd love to punch you right in your chops and knock every tooth out of your head. Come see me bitch, I have something for you!" someone named Dave Jones wrote in an email to Mallick.
Messages left on the Fox News website also contain a lot of anti-Canadian sentiment.
"Canada is made up of small towns and many if not most trace their ancestry back to their 'redneck cousin' and they still have relatives here in the U.S.," one wrote.
Wrote another, "Those morons up north just can't keep their ignorant mouths shut when it's really none of their socialist business ... the People's Republic of Canada is no friend of the USA!"
The Toronto-based Mallick admits she's been shaken by the violence suggested in hundreds of emails similar in tone to Jones', but adds the messages have simply served to underscore her point about the bigotry and small-mindedness of some Republican supporters.
"The responses to my column proved me correct about the extreme right in the United States: they have a great misogynist rage in them," Mallick said in an interview from Toronto on Saturday.
"The violent and obscene threats against me were one thing - it's easy to filter those - but the anti-Semitic hate mail was very troubling. I am not Jewish but I am honoured to be taken for one. I consider it a great compliment."
The CBC said Saturday it had no plans to remove Mallick's article from its website despite the criticism.
"She's an opinion columnist, she expresses her opinion. Her opinions don't represent the views of CBC in general or CBC News in particular," said spokesman Jeff Keay.
"The people who object to her opinions have an opportunity to comment on the website as they've done."
Mallick was certainly not alone in attacking Palin in the days following John McCain's surprise pick of the Alaska governor as his running mate.
Among many others in the mainstream media and in the blogosphere, Salon.com's Cintra Wilson had a column about Palin that was in the same vein as Mallick's.
"Ideologically, she is their hardcore pornographic centrefold spread," Wilson wrote. "She's such a power-mad, backwater beauty-pageant casualty, it's easy to write her off and make fun of her. But in reality I feel as horrified as a ghetto Jew watching the rise of National Socialism."
The rage of women about Palin in the so-called blue states - those that routinely vote Democrat in presidential elections - has, in fact, been well-documented.
"All of my women friends ... were on the verge of throwing themselves out windows," author and political activist Nancy Kricorian told the New York Sun earlier this week.
"People were flipping out. ... Every woman I know was in high hysteria over this. Everyone was just beside themselves with terror that this woman could be our president - our potential next president."
But the woman-versus-woman slurs haven't just focused on Palin. Van Susteren levelled some Mallick's way when she repeatedly called her a pig while discussing the controversy with the Ottawa Citizen's David Warren on her Fox News Channel show Thursday.
"There's no part of me that thinks this woman published this as part of a grand motive to expose others. I think she just wrote it for selfish reasons and because, as I noted, I think she's a pig," Van Susteren said.
One lone participant on Van Susteren's blog, amid the many cheerleaders, took her to task for the remarks.
"It seems particularly ironic that you decry Mallick's lack of tact/professionalism, etc., when she name-calls by doing precisely the same thing: what sort of journalistic integrity is there in calling someone a pig?" wrote someone named Hope.
The media blog Media Bistro also defended Mallick.
"We kind of think Heather Mallick has some balls to be that snarky in a country that tries to legislate politeness," it wrote.
Mallick was unapologetic about the column Saturday, adding the CBC has been supportive of her right to expression.
"Columnists have been opinionating since newspapers were invented," she said. "And now journalism is online which makes reaction even more hyper than it used to be. I'm a confident writer and some of this new audience is not used to that."
[above article re-printed in its entirety]
When I say that the so-called "conservative" movement is really crypto-fascist, it becomes apparent in the rage that its followers cannot contain. The threats of violence are real and they represent an undercurrent of native fascist brutality. There is no spin in the world able to account for the fact that all of this latent violence comes from only one side of the political spectrum. Rednecks are armed and they are dangerous. It is up to every decent American citizen NOT to give them the victory that they are now seeking at the polls. They need to be defeated, not by a whisker but in a landslide.
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Wait, wait, wait, holdonafreakin'second....
The left are supposed to be the hate-filled ones.
Somebody oughta tell these folks...
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In monarchies, women who rose to the top dealt mostly with a narrow elite, so they could prove themselves and get on with governing. But in democracies in the television age, female leaders also have to navigate public prejudices — and these make democratic politics far more challenging for a woman than for a man.
In one common experiment, the “Goldberg paradigm,” people are asked to evaluate a particular article or speech, supposedly by a man. Others are asked to evaluate the identical presentation, but from a woman. Typically, in countries all over the world, the very same words are rated higher coming from a man.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10kristof.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10kristof.html)
Canadian resorts to nasty name calling , Fans of the insulted indulge in empty threats .
I don't really know which to feel more sorry for, but what has any of this to do with Sara Palin?
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In monarchies, women who rose to the top dealt mostly with a narrow elite, so they could prove themselves and get on with governing. But in democracies in the television age, female leaders also have to navigate public prejudices — and these make democratic politics far more challenging for a woman than for a man.
In one common experiment, the “Goldberg paradigm,” people are asked to evaluate a particular article or speech, supposedly by a man. Others are asked to evaluate the identical presentation, but from a woman. Typically, in countries all over the world, the very same words are rated higher coming from a man.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10kristof.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10kristof.html)
Canadian resorts to nasty name calling , Fans of the insulted indulge in empty threats .
I don't really know which to feel more sorry for, but what has any of this to do with Sara Palin?
Ahhhh- Love is blind.
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My guess is the poor souls commenting on Fox mistook the love and respect Mallik has for Palin and that her remarks about white trash voters and porn actress looks were actually complementary. Her column obviously was overly nuanced.
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My guess is the poor souls commenting on Fox mistook the love and respect Mallik has for Palin and that her remarks about white trash voters and porn actress looks were actually complementary. Her column obviously was overly nuanced.
White trash she surely is and a porn actress might be poetic license for how you fools drool over the only attractive female fascist in America.
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<< . . . but what has any of this to do with Sara Palin?>>
Ahh, that's for you to figure out, plane.
Start by asking the question, what is it about Sarah Palin that attracts such an interesting bunch of sub-human Neanderthals? Why are these hate-filled, violence-addicted thugs so attracted to Palin and not to McCain, Biden or Obama?
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But Fox News picked up on it this week, and unleashed its full fury on Mallick for stating that Palin, the Republicans' vice-presidential nominee, appeals to "the white trash vote" with her "toned-down version of the porn actress look."
Once again you get it wrong.
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<< . . . but what has any of this to do with Sara Palin?>>
Ahh, that's for you to figure out, plane.
Start by asking the question, what is it about Sarah Palin that attracts such an interesting bunch of sub-human Neanderthals? Why are these hate-filled, violence-addicted thugs so attracted to Palin and not to McCain, Biden or Obama?
I still get the feeling somehow that there is a contempt for the common man implicit in the Obama fandom , but how am I getting this impression?
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<< I still get the feeling somehow that there is a contempt for the common man implicit in the Obama fandom , but how am I getting this impression?>>
Easy. You've confused "the common man" with the hate-filled white-trash Neanderthals who think Sarah Palin is great.
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But Fox News picked up on it this week, and unleashed its full fury on Mallick for stating that Palin, the Republicans' vice-presidential nominee, appeals to "the white trash vote" with her "toned-down version of the porn actress look."
[...]
"The responses to my column proved me correct about the extreme right in the United States: they have a great misogynist rage in them," Mallick said in an interview from Toronto on Saturday.
Yes, it's bad to be against someone simply for having breasts, but perfectly reasonable to be against someone simply for having large breasts. No, not really, I was just being sarcastic.
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<<Yes, it's bad to be against someone simply for having breasts, but perfectly reasonable to be against someone simply for having large breasts. No, not really, I was just being sarcastic.>>
? ? ? ? ?
You DO understand, don't you, that "misogynist rage" referred to the comments directed by Palin's supporters against the Canadian reporter?
(just askin')
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Of course I do. Thus my sarcastic comment. You do understand my sarcastic comment, don't you?
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<< I still get the feeling somehow that there is a contempt for the common man implicit in the Obama fandom , but how am I getting this impression?>>
Easy. You've confused "the common man" with the hate-filled white-trash Neanderthals who think Sarah Palin is great.
I am?
What is the common man like then?
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<<You do understand my sarcastic comment, don't you?>>
Yes, but I'm having a little trouble integrating it into the argument in this thread.
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It's a criticism of Lee-Anne Goodman.
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I still get the feeling somehow that there is a contempt for the common man implicit in the Obama fandom , but how am I getting this impression?
Could it be that you identify with what you call the "common man", and somehow feel that anyone with more education than you is out to get you? Could this be a problem that has been festering in your own mind?
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From the Los Angeles Times
Alaskans angered that Palin is off-limits
Queries are directed through the McCain campaign machine. Her political capital at home is eroding.
By Kim Murphy
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 21, 2008
ANCHORAGE — Jerry McCutcheon went to Sarah Palin's office here last week to request information about the firing of former Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan, the scandal that for weeks has threatened to overshadow the governor's role as Republican presidential candidate John McCain's running mate.
McCutcheon was given a phone number in Virginia to call: the national headquarters of the McCain-Palin campaign.
Why, he wanted to know, did he have to call a campaign office 4,300 miles away to find out what was going on in Alaska government? The longtime civic activist phoned his local state representative, Les Gara, who quickly filed a protest.
These days, many such queries about Monegan -- or anything else involving Palin's record as governor -- get diverted to McCain staffers. A former Justice Department prosecutor from New York flew in recently to advise the governor's lawyer and field reporters' calls about Monegan. Soon after, Palin's willingness to cooperate in the Legislature's probe of the affair ended.
A recent call to John Cramer, the head of the state Department of Military and Veterans Affairs -- who clashed with Palin during her years as mayor of Wasilla -- was returned by a McCain campaign operative who had just arrived from Washington, D.C. "John who?" she asked.
In stubbornly independent Alaska, the sudden intrusion of a political campaign into so many corners of state government -- not to mention Wasilla, where a dozen or more campaign researchers and lawyers have also begun overseeing the release of any information about Palin's years as mayor -- has touched a raw nerve. McCain staffers have even been assigned to answer calls for Palin's family members, who have been instructed not to talk.
"Why did the McCain campaign take over the governor's office?" the Anchorage Daily News demanded in an editorial Saturday. "Is it too much to ask that Alaska's governor speak for herself, directly to Alaskans, about her actions as Alaska's governor?"
The partisan spillover of the presidential campaign into the statehouse, political analysts here say, now threatens Palin's most powerful political capital in Alaska: her commitment to transparency, her willingness to forge bipartisan alliances with Democrats to advance her legislative agenda, and her battle to upend the good ol' boy network.
"Is this going to dilute her image as a maverick who will clean out the rascals from their perches of power, when she herself cannot tolerate questions into her behavior, investigations into the firing of a public safety commissioner?" said Gerald McBeath, political science professor at the University of Alaska in Fairbanks.
Palin, he said, is "still popular" in Alaska, "but she is not beloved. And there's a difference between the two. She's getting a lot more criticism at the state level as a result of her vice presidential candidacy."
Democratic leaders, whom the Palin camp accuses of initiating rounds of partisan sniping, say the bipartisanship that helped Palin win passage of ethics measures, a new natural-gas pipeline and an increase in the oil production tax -- in most cases over the objections of her own Republican leadership -- is essentially over.
"She would have gotten none of her bills passed without us, and to see her come in and attack us now the way she's attacking us, when it's completely unwarranted, is just tearing people up," said Democratic state Sen. Bill Wielechowski. "I think it's going to make it hard for her to come back and govern in this state."
Even conservatives are expressing resentment over the governor's about-face on the Monegan investigation and the infiltration of state government by the McCain campaign.
"This Palin VP thing has Alaskans all stirred up. Much like Palin divided the Republican Party, she has managed to divide the state over her national candidacy," conservative talk-show host Dan Fagan complained in a commentary last week.
"My fellow conservatives, remember how frustrating it was when Bill Clinton committed perjury and liberals looked the other way. As conservatives, we are no better unless we demand full disclosure from our governor," he said. " . . . No politician is so popular and charismatic that they should be above accountability and telling the truth."
Most of the battle lines have been drawn around what is commonly called Troopergate: allegations that Monegan was fired in July because he had refused to terminate Palin's former brother-in-law, a state trooper whose divorce from Palin's sister was messy.
Palin insists the firing was motivated by Monegan's insubordination on budget issues, not her sister's situation, though the governor and her husband, Todd, admit complaining in the past about the trooper. They said their former brother-in-law had threatened the family, driven his patrol car after drinking alcohol and illegally shot a moose.
Palin had welcomed the Legislature's inquiry and promised to cooperate.
But she now says the state personnel board, not the Legislature, is the proper venue to probe what happened. The board consists of three GOP appointees.
Palin's spokespeople have accused the Democratic chair of the state Senate Judiciary Committee, Hollis French, and others of turning the probe into a partisan attack. In a media interview earlier this month, French warned that the committee's final report might turn into "an October surprise" for the McCain campaign.
On Friday, French, who was Palin's point man in the Legislature on the oil production tax hike, waited for more than half an hour for subpoenaed witnesses, including Palin's husband. None showed up.
Several other witnesses had been scheduled to testify voluntarily but, on the advice of Palin's attorney general, also did not appear.
The resulting standoff has put Alaska on the verge of a constitutional crisis, as the legislative and executive branches each refuse to budge, and no one is sure who is in charge. Legislators say they will consider holding in contempt any witnesses who ignore subpoenas, and they have challenged the right of the attorney general, who is appointed by the governor, to advise state employees on whether to testify.
The standoff has ended any vestiges of bipartisan goodwill for Palin in Juneau, after just 21 months in office. "The level of money [the McCain campaign] sent up here to attack people is unprecedented in a small state like this. If [McCain] were truly a reformer, he'd end this nonsense and apologize to all the people he's attacked up here," said Rep. Gara, a Democrat.
The biggest controversy came Tuesday, when the McCain-Palin campaign called a news conference to dispute the claim that Monegan was dismissed for refusing to fire the trooper.
Edward O'Callaghan, who until recently was co-chief of the terrorism and national security unit of the U.S. attorney's office in New York, and a former Palin spokeswoman now working for the national campaign, accused Monegan of a "rogue mentality" and "outright insubordination." They said he had flown to Washington, D.C., without Palin's approval to lobby for more police funding.
Democratic leaders, incensed that outsiders were attacking a respected former state official, produced a travel document Friday showing that in fact Monegan had a signed authorization from the governor's chief of staff before making what the Palin camp had called an "unauthorized" lobbying trip.
"I don't know why they're trying to paint this [legislative investigation] as a Democratic partisan attack," said state Sen. Wielechowski. "The thing I constantly remind people of is: Democrats didn't push this. You know who pushed it? It was the Republicans. This is the thing people conveniently forget now. There were no Democrats out there screaming for an investigation."
The House Judiciary Committee vote to endorse the issuance of the subpoenas included five Republicans and two Democrats.
Taylor Griffin, the McCain-Palin spokesman in Alaska, said the governor believes the state personnel board is a more objective forum for answering any outstanding questions.
"The governor . . . has nothing to hide, and she instructed her staff to cooperate with the inquiry because she thought it was important to get the facts out," Griffin said.
"But this was all before she was named as the Republican vice presidential running mate. After that, things changed. There was a partisan switch that was flipped among many in the Legislative Council, five of whom have endorsed Obama, several of whom are featured in a picture on Obama's website," he said. The 14- member council -- which oversees legislative business between sessions -- unanimously authorized the probe.
Meanwhile, the blogs in Alaska have been full of rants about the McCain campaign. "A pack of high-powered East Coast lawyers are the new artisans of the Palin 'image.' If anyone has a question about Palin's 20 months as governor, ask the McCain campaign, because apparently no one else can give you the answers. This is not going over well in Alaska," one blogger wrote last week.
"Who the hell do they think they are?" wrote another.
Yet many on both sides of the political fence who initially were critical of Palin have rallied behind her.
"Everything that's flitting through my mind right now is better left where it is," Rep. Jay Ramras, a Fairbanks Republican who has been a strident critic of Palin, told the Anchorage Daily News last week. The governor, he said, has become "the American idol of politics."
kim.murphy@latimes.com
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-troopergate21-2008sep21,0,6395136,print.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-troopergate21-2008sep21,0,6395136,print.story)
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Hey, look: criticism of Sara Palin that has nothing to do with her physical appearance.
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<<Legislators say they will consider holding in contempt any witnesses who ignore subpoenas, and they have challenged the right of the attorney general, who is appointed by the governor, to advise state employees on whether to testify.>>
There is the problem right there. They issued a subpoena, the subpoena was ignored, there was no attempt to have it set aside by a court order - - obviously because the subpoena would stand - - and no action is taken. What self-respecting court or tribunal anywhere in the civilized world would see its subpoena power willfully flouted like that? The witness doesn't show, an arrest warrant is issued and the police haul his miserable ass into the hearing room, where he takes the oath and answers the questions or he finds himself counting the bars in the Crossbars Hotel. But in Alaska, legislators whose subpoena is willfully flouted "will consider" holding in contempt . . . LMFAO.
Great article in general. Clearly and carefully highlights the overwhelmingly bi-partisan nature of the Troopergate investigation, the absurd claim that with the nomination of Palin a "bi-partisan switch" was thrown, as if human beings can be turned off and on like a light switch, ethical and honest one second, dishonest and unethical at the flip of a switch. You can almost TASTE the desperation in that last absurd and even childish claim manufactured by the McCain campaign.
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".....the absurd claim that with the nomination of Palin a "bi-partisan switch" was thrown, as if human beings can be turned off and on like a light switch, ethical and honest one second, dishonest and unethical at the flip of a switch. ..."
Oh yes this does happen.
Ever see the "Tresure of the Sierra Madre"?
The Presidential prize is enough to make large groups of people behave abismally and contrary to their norm.
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Ever see the "Tresure of the Sierra Madre"?
The Presidential prize is enough to make large groups of people behave abismally and contrary to their norm.
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It was a movie about gold mining. It had nothing to do with presidential anything.
McCain, Palin and their handlers seem to be the ones who want to run away from the scandal. They are behaving abysmally. I am not sure what their norm is.
If you are making a point here, it is not a very sharp one.
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Ever see the "Tresure of the Sierra Madre"?
The Presidential prize is enough to make large groups of people behave abismally and contrary to their norm.
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It was a movie about gold mining. It had nothing to do with presidential anything.
McCain, Palin and their handlers seem to be the ones who want to run away from the scandal. They are behaving abysmally. I am not sure what their norm is.
If you are making a point here, it is not a very sharp one.
I think P is equating greed to lust for power. Doesnt surprise me coming from a Repub who wouldnt know or care about the difference.
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Ever see the "Tresure of the Sierra Madre"?
The Presidential prize is enough to make large groups of people behave abismally and contrary to their norm.
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It was a movie about gold mining. It had nothing to do with presidential anything.
McCain, Palin and their handlers seem to be the ones who want to run away from the scandal. They are behaving abysmally. I am not sure what their norm is.
If you are making a point here, it is not a very sharp one.
I think P is equating greed to lust for power. Doesnt surprise me coming from a Repub who wouldnt know or care about the difference.
You are right , but don't leave me ignorant , tell me about the diffrence.
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I still get the feeling somehow that there is a contempt for the common man implicit in the Obama fandom , but how am I getting this impression?
Could it be that you identify with what you call the "common man", and somehow feel that anyone with more education than you is out to get you? Could this be a problem that has been festering in your own mind?
I am a rather common man , but I consider myself well read and ambitious to learn.
Several persons on this forum have evidently got better education than I do , but they are not uniformly against me nor does there seem to be a conspiracy of intentionally repressing the less qualified , it is just necessarily like that sometimes .
When translation or teaching is the subject I would certainly give you the deference due to an hundred times my experience in those fields , but this doesn't mean I can't disagree with you .
Just as I suspect I have a lot more experience and specialised Knowledge than you do in Aircraft maintenance , but if you think I am wrong about an aircraft you can certainly say so , no ones expertise amounts to omniscience , even in a speciality.
So yes I Identify with the Common man , tho "fester" with its connotation of rot does not describe my attitude well ,I am pleased to count myself an ordinary American , More I wonder how it is that you do not identify with the common man so much?
MT's References to Hillbillies , Rednecks and Neanderthals denote an unwarranted disrespect ,the common man is Atlas, Ann Rand got that backwards.
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>You are right , but don't leave me ignorant , tell me about the diffrence.<
Greed is associated with lust for money which does not necessarily mean that the luster is also seeking power. Many power lusting people do not care about the money. Can I be of service in any other way?
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>You are right , but don't leave me ignorant , tell me about the difference.<
Greed is associated with lust for money which does not necessarily mean that the luster is also seeking power. Many power lusting people do not care about the money. Can I be of service in any other way?
That is a good distinction that you make , but I think you understood what I meant about people in the throws of greed and also the lust for power acting in ways worse than their norm.
The US Presidency is the biggest consentration of Power in the history of the world , those who lust for power act outrageously for a tiny share of it.
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That is a good distinction that you make
Plane, you are a much nicer man than I am.
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The common man is Atlas, Ann Rand got that backwards.
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Atlas was Capitalism, as portrayed in her books. The bad guys in her books were akin to those who killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.
None of Ayn Rand's heroes was any sort of common man: both her villains and her heroes were people who had a better than average education. The "public" was an easily duped assortment of boneheads, until John Galt points the way, they they all follow his Messianic lead.
You are right about Rand getting it wrong concerning economics. She was wroing about smoking, too. She thought smoking was symbolic of Man's domination of Fire. She died of lung cancer.
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I don't think I would offer advice to you concerning aircraft maintenance, unless you were doing something truly dumb, like putting the wings on upside down.
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<<MT's References to Hillbillies , Rednecks and Neanderthals denote an unwarranted disrespect ,the common man is Atlas, Ann Rand got that backwards.>>
Sorry, plane. Whoever I meant when I said hillbillies, rednecks and Neanderthals, it was never meant to be you. I meant people who were filled with hate, the kind of people who made up lynch mobs in the past and commit hate crimes today. Violent, ugly, criminal people. The hundreds of people who sent the hateful e-mails referred to in the article at the top of this thread.
The common man is the common man, not a hate-filled bigot. He might not be as educated as others but he's the guy who keeps the truck motors running, the planes flying and the ships floating. He's the guy the People's Revolution is made for and he's the guy in whose name all the state power of the dictatorship of the proletariat is exercised.
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My mother's folks are mountain folks, from the mountains of NE Alabama and east Tennessee. I have always been a hillbilly and a redneck. Maybe you should rethink your definitions.
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You have a right to call yourself a hillbilly and/or redneck, but these are terms normally used to refer to rural uneducated types.
You do not appear to be either, although you might be rural.
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He's the guy the People's Revolution is made for and he's the guy in whose name all the state power of the dictatorship of the proletariat is exercised.
Unless he wants to fix his neighbor's lawn mower for free. Then he's the guy who gets crushed under the exercise of all the state power of the dictatorship of the proletariat.
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Unless he wants to fix his neighbor's lawn mower for free. Then he's the guy who gets crushed under the exercise of all the state power of the dictatorship of the proletariat.
There are major differences between Nouveau riche zoning laws and the dictatorship of any proletariat.
I doubt that this man would have been even a minor bother to any commissar in a Communist state. Property values is not a topic that Lenin thought about very often.
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<<I doubt that this man would have been even a minor bother to any commissar in a Communist state. Property values is not a topic that Lenin thought about very often.>>
Exactly. Bourgeois values in a capitalist society, socialist values in a communist society. It would be absurd to try to apply socialist ethics in a capitalist society. Although his situation was not exactly analogous, you need only consider the fate of Jesus Christ if you want to see what happens to anyone attempting to apply the values of one kind of society while living in another.
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An issue that I should have addressed before is that some people have taken offence at my overly liberal application of words like hillbilly, redneck and Neanderthal.
I'm really sorry. Don't know why I didn't look after this before. Should have dealt with it right away.
plane and hnumpah, I did not mean to offend either one of you. Sorry if I did. I'm going to keep a much tighter watch on my use of those terms and probably qualify them if and when I DO use them again so that it becomes crystal clear just who I am referring to. And who I'm NOT referring to.
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I doubt that this man would have been even a minor bother to any commissar in a Communist state. Property values is not a topic that Lenin thought about very often.
Your dismissal and Michael's missed the real point. The point is not property values or even fixing lawn mowers. The point is what happens when one does something not approved by the authority, by the dictatorship of the proletariat.
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<<The point is what happens when one does something not approved by the authority, by the dictatorship of the proletariat.>>
What happens when you run a red light in the heart of London, England, the very source of our Parliamentary democracy?
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The point is what happens when one does something not approved by the authority, by the dictatorship of the proletariat.
You are deliberately misunderstanding MY point. Communists are not into these stupid zoning regulations.
The mention of a "dictatorship of the proletariat" is inappropriate referring to this case.
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What happens when you run a red light in the heart of London, England, the very source of our Parliamentary democracy?
Since I don't live in London, I can only guess. Probably a camera takes a picture and one gets a minor fine. On the other hand, Mr. Tennett who dared to help his neighbors for free could end up paying a $25,000 fine. You seemed to think this was a dandy idea.
To be clear, no one is arguing against laws.
The point being that for all the talk of helping the common man, the proletariat, you embrace the notion of almost literally hammering down anyone who is so "selfish" as to think of doing something on his own. You said the common man is "the guy who keeps the truck motors running, the planes flying and the ships floating. He's the guy the People's Revolution is made for and he's the guy in whose name all the state power of the dictatorship of the proletariat is exercised." One common man fills his time with helping his neighbors, keeping their lawn mowers running free of charge, simply because doing the work pleased him, not expecting payment, and you say he should be damned for his selfishness. The dictatorship of the proletariat is a tyranny.
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You are deliberately misunderstanding MY point. Communists are not into these stupid zoning regulations.
The mention of a "dictatorship of the proletariat" is inappropriate referring to this case.
No, I got your point. It had nothing to do with mine. The criticism is not about zoning laws or what happened to Mr. Tennett. The criticism is about the dictatorship of the proletariat.
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When a common man picks up a good education ,what does he become?
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<<One common man fills his time with helping his neighbors, keeping their lawn mowers running free of charge, simply because doing the work pleased him, not expecting payment, and you say he should be damned for his selfishness. The dictatorship of the proletariat is a tyranny.>>
Well, let's put it this way - - he decides the world will be a better place if he fixes people's lawnmowers free in his home. Some of the lawnmower owners agree.
The people, through laws passed by their duly elected representatives, have decided that the world will be a better place if property use is determined by the Official Plan and enforced equally across the board by City By-Law Enforcement Officers, subject to certain built-in procedures whereby Joe Tennant or anyone else can apply for exemptions.
To be perfectly frank about it, there are probably a hell of a lot more people who voted for the municipal government that enacted the Official Plan and related zoning by-laws than there are of Joe Tennant and all the lawn-mower owners who took advantage of his free services combined. Their interests in orderly property use and development in a capitalist society in which they each own or rent property are apparently more important to them than free lawnmower repair, although to Joe Tennant and his lawnmower owners, the reverse is true. Since the majority rules, the zoning by-law wins. If Joe can convince enough citizens that free lawn mower repair is more important than orderly property use and development, they can elect a new municipal government that will amend the Official Plan and the zoning by-laws their way. Or if Joe can convince the local Committee of Adjustment that he ought to be given a "minor variance consent" (exemption from the by-law) then he can carry on his usual practices. Until then, he better just follow the law. On both sides of our common border, people will tell you, "You don't fight City Hall." That's generally good advice. Not always, but probably 19 times out of 20.
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<<When a common man picks up a good education ,what does he become?>>
That's entirely up to him. Either you're for the Revolution or you're against the people.
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plane and hnumpah, I did not mean to offend either one of you. Sorry if I did. I'm going to keep a much tighter watch on my use of those terms and probably qualify them if and when I DO use them again so that it becomes crystal clear just who I am referring to. And who I'm NOT referring to.
That would be appreciated, though I don't see any reason to use those terms at all. If you mean racist or misogynist, or whatever else you were substituting those terms for, why not just use racist or misogynist? Both will, in fact, be found across the spectrum of the populace, not just among the groups you choose to slander. To me it is akin to telling Polack jokes.
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That's entirely up to him. Either you're for the Revolution or you're against the people.
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I don't see there as being any sort of obligation to choose one or the other ever, or even selectively.
If the Revolution says I can only paint Revolutionary paintings or sculpt Revolutionary heroes in the act of being heroic, and I prefer to paint horses or sculpt naked women, then there is something wrong with the revolutionary leadership that decided this.
If the Revolution says my research must be based on Lysenko, and I recognize Lysenko as a fool, then the problem is with the revolutionary leadership. Lysenkoist science leads nowhere useful, as it is based on the false premise that actions performed on organisms after they are born will be inherited eventually.
4000 of circumcisions and the continuing demand for moyels should have educated Lysenko about this, but alas, such did not happen, and Stalinist science was defective as a result.
It would have been great had Lysenko been right, since the New Soviet Man would have been incapable of corruption and egotism, eventually. It pleased Stalin to believe this, and Lysenko was given the stamp of approval.
Anti-Lysenkosists were purged and sent to supervise hog production and the like.
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plane and hnumpah, I did not mean to offend either one of you. Sorry if I did. I'm going to keep a much tighter watch on my use of those terms and probably qualify them if and when I DO use them again so that it becomes crystal clear just who I am referring to. And who I'm NOT referring to.
That would be appreciated, though I don't see any reason to use those terms at all. If you mean racist or misogynist, or whatever else you were substituting those terms for, why not just use racist or misogynist? Both will, in fact, be found across the spectrum of the populace, not just among the groups you choose to slander. To me it is akin to telling Polack jokes.
This is one of the few cases that I cannot agree with T. I say, if the shoe fits wear it. Also , there is nothing wrong with Polack jokes and I am a Slovak whom my dad called hi-class Polacks. Those jokes are neither racist or misogynistic. They are ethnic . The only people that I know that hate stupid Pollack jokes are stupid Polacks . Be offended if it applies to you, but leave funny alone.We have enough sadness & depresion in the world .
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Polish are offended by Polak jokes. Ploes dioslike being called Polaks.
Norwegians tell Norski jokes. Norwegians are never offended if you call them Norskis.
The Norskis in Norski jokes are often dumber than the Polaks in Polak jokes.
There is simply a difference in attitude and sense of humor here. Norwegians have the better of both.
Perhaps it is because Poles had Germans for neighbors, and Norwegians had Swedes, Danes, Finns and the odd Sami.
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I always thought this was amusing:
WHITE POWER is seen as a racist slogan.
BLACK POWER is seen as an empowering slogan.
POLISH POWER is seen as a humorous slogan.
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When the racism seemed to develop organically out of the historical or regional experience of large groups, it was a kind of short-hand for what came of that historical development: the racism of the hillbilly developing out of the frontier battles with the Indians and the racism of the rednecks developing out of the need to control the slave population. Also the complete indifference to human life that went along with the racism made it different than, say, country-club racism or job-discrimination racism. The racism of the groups that I labelled "hillbillies" or "rednecks" seemed to be a lot more deadly than many other forms of racism. Anyway, I agree that many people can be lumped as rednecks or hillbillies by origin, ancestry or even self-definition and yet may have gotten past racism or primitive urges to maim and kill, which is a distinction I should have taken into account and will try to be more careful about in the future.
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Also the complete indifference to human life that went along with the racism made it different than, say, country-club racism or job-discrimination racism.
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The oligarchy decided that there would be slavery and there would be a war between the French and the English was a lot more responsible for the current mess than the slave catchers, the auctioneers, the overseers and the patrollers that enforced slavery or the soldiers who did the actual killing.
The country club types who decided that no Blacks would be hired as supervisors, tellers, garbage truck drivers were also a lot more responsible than the hooting , bare-armed Klansmen that swung the axhandles, led the attack dogs and held the firehoses.
The oligarchy always manages to see that the proper atrocities are committed without getting its hands dirty. This does not make them less responsible.
The demeaning part of being a hillbilly or a redneck is that one is a pawn of others.
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Michael,
I took care of a patient who every morning, cleaned his electric razor very carefully and put a drop of oil wherever you put it, I don't remember now.
He saw me observing this daily ritual and he said, "I'm just a hillbilly. I like things to last. I've had this for 15 years."
He was a bank president and was well-educated, so what I get from his description is the kind of messages I got from my parents, that you waste not, want not. Make it last, etc. or do without. If you break it, fix it; if you can't, grow flowers in it. Survive and try to be happy, go on to the next challenge.
:-) Depression-era stuff.
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Well, that was pretty much my dad's way as well, except that although well able to afford one, he considered an electric razor a needless and outrageously irresponsible extravagance for sissies and punks who were afraid to nick their skin. I got three as Bar Mitzvah presents, but I never dreamed of using them and incurring my dad's scorn. He liked to lather up the old-fashioned way with a cup and a brush, but sometime in the late 50s, he finally agreed to get his Barbasol out of the spray-can. That and the Gillette safety razor were the only concessions he made to modernity in shaving, but he could never bring himself to throw out his old straight razor and leather sharpening strap.
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The brush and soap lather actually works better than the spray foam. The difficulty these days is in finding a decent badger brush. Apparently badger breeding is in a slump.
I never liked electric razors, they make my face itch.
The cheapo 12 for $2 razors seem to do a better job than the old safety razors. The new Gillette Mach razors are best by a small degree, but the blades do not last as long as the cheapo razors.
There is a major forum on straight razor use and care in the Internet. Shaving as a hobby, something else.
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Some real charmers, here.....
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/sandra_bernhard.html (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/sandra_bernhard.html)
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/bill_mahers_sit.html (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/bill_mahers_sit.html)
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/failed_comedian.html (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/failed_comedian.html)
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Dick, I laughed my ass off at the print versions of Maher and the last guy, and I can't wait to play the Bernhard tape when I've got a few minutes, but it looks funny as hell too. I dunno, I don't think Bernhard REALLY wants anybody to get gang-raped by blacks or whites or anyone else in Manhattan, but she's making some rhetorical points and . . . well, life goes better with a sense of humour. Just lighten up and enjoy, you don't even have to agree with anything they say. Some very funny stuff was posted here by a right-wing writer, I didn't recognize the name, but I laughed my ass off then too, regardless of the political POV being expressed. Funny's funny.
Anyway, thanks for those three links.
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Let me put it this way, this-
Well, let's put it this way - - he decides the world will be a better place if he fixes people's lawnmowers free in his home. Some of the lawnmower owners agree.
-has far less to do with my point than this-
Either you're for the Revolution or you're against the people.
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Some real charmers, here.....
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/sandra_bernhard.html (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/sandra_bernhard.html)
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/bill_mahers_sit.html (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/bill_mahers_sit.html)
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/failed_comedian.html (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/09/failed_comedian.html)
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Well, I checked 'em all out and they were kind of disappointing.
First, Sandra Bernhard - - the clip didn't show what the text referred to, her threatening Palin with rape by black street criminals if she dared come to Manhattan, so I can't say how that would have been presented. I think some of the more traditional blacks might have found this offensive, also lots of bourgeois women. She's a very angry lady and in the clip, I think she was just expressing the anger in political and religious formats, as she often does, but I think I got the point in each format, the religious one was a little easier, I'm not exactly sure what she was trying to say about Palin politically. It didn't really seem important enough to bother about, frankly. This was pretty much run-of-the-mill Bernhard, Palin supposedly gave it a contemporary edge, but really nothing new. She was probably a lot better ten or fifteen years ago, the message never changes, I'm starting to feel kind of sorry for her. Maybe the rape thing had some funny angle to it in a live performance, but I dunno. If she came to Toronto, there's a 50-50 chance I'd bother to take in the show. Our friend can always get passes to some of the comedy clubs, so if it's free I'd probably catch the act just for the Palin rape schtick, but otherwise fuhgeddabowdit.
The Bill Maher stuff was funnier - - Free Levi!! - - but someone should tell whoever created the negative image of Maher ("shit-for-brains") that George Grosz beat him or her to it 75 years ago in a much better, funnier painting. (We saw the original in Berlin, but I'll be God-damned if I can remember the museum, probably the Neue Nationalgalerie.) I agree with the Free Levi! stuff except that if he plays his cards right, the baby can live, he can still get an education and maybe more than he'd get if he "lit off fer the Territories," and maybe he and Bristol can craft some kinda life for each other. OTOH, seems kinda dumb and sad for the guy to get nailed down this early in his young and stupid life, if Bristol wants to have the baby without him, I'm sure they've got the resources in the Palin family to see that nobody goes hungry.
And the last guy was just - - so-so. But he raised a point, maybe Bristol really needs some counselling because the mum's political ambitions might be causing her to sacrifice Bristol's best interests or even thwarting her will. What if Bristol really wants an abortion and the mum is exerting undue influence to make her carry to term. I don't know if simply posting the price of an abortion for Bristol is the answer, but given the apparent lack of interest by the Governor in her own family members, maybe a court should step in and make Bristol its ward, and then determine what is actually in her best interests with regard to the pregnancy.
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<<When a common man picks up a good education ,what does he become?>>
That's entirely up to him. Either you're for the Revolution or you're against the people.
In my country , a very strong majority of the people are against the people.
If that makes no sense to you , I blame your paradigm.
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<<In my country , a very strong majority of the people are against the people.>>
That's pure speculation on your part. Half of them don't even bother to vote.
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<<In my country , a very strong majority of the people are against the people.>>
That's pure speculation on your part. Half of them don't even bother to vote.
I am useing your definition.
"Either you're for the Revolution or you're against the people."
So there is no speculation at all only a tiny number of Americans are in favor of another Revolution , a tiny number who favor it either hold conventions in hotel rooms or toss bombs.
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America's a long way from a Revolution. Generally speaking, Revolutionary opportunities arise in the wake of foreign defeats. America will have to suffer some catastrophic foreign defeats or major economic collapse before the development of revolutionary pre-conditions. That's why REAL leftists favour McCain and Palin over Obama and Biden. The former are much more likely to fuck up the country AND to engage in foreign adventures that will lead to catastrophic defeats.
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America's a long way from a Revolution. Generally speaking, Revolutionary opportunities arise in the wake of foreign defeats. America will have to suffer some catastrophic foreign defeats or major economic collapse before the development of revolutionary pre-conditions. That's why REAL leftists favour McCain and Palin over Obama and Biden. The former are much more likely to fuck up the country AND to engage in foreign adventures that will lead to catastrophic defeats.
Leftists as real as that must be pretty rare.
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<<Leftists as real as that must be pretty rare.>>
Yeah, they are. Unfortunately. And they don't work over at Saturday Night Live or any of the places sirs or Rich think they do.
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America's a long way from a Revolution. Generally speaking, Revolutionary opportunities arise in the wake of foreign defeats. America will have to suffer some catastrophic foreign defeats or major economic collapse before the development of revolutionary pre-conditions. That's why REAL leftists favour McCain and Palin over Obama and Biden. The former are much more likely to fuck up the country AND to engage in foreign adventures that will lead to catastrophic defeats.
So "real" leftists want people to suffer and to die for the sake of the "real' leftists political agenda. How (completely not) compassionate of them.
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<<So "real" leftists want people to suffer and to die for the sake of the "real' leftists political agenda. How (completely not) compassionate of them.>>
Hopefully, when the Revolution next appears it will be bloodless.
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>>As far as I'm concerned, everyone's mortgage could be paid off.<<
Not likey.