Author Topic: ...hope almost always beats fear  (Read 3274 times)

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BT

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2008, 08:52:46 PM »
Quote
If Bush did not start it, who did?

Al-Queda based in Afghanistan.

Who do you think started it?

Brassmask

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2008, 09:08:35 PM »
Quote
If Bush did not start it, who did?

Al-Queda based in Afghanistan.

Who do you think started it?


Your statement is slightly misleading.  AQ was never proven to be "based in Afghanistan".  It was widely accepted (since the Bush "administration" kept stating) that ObL was holed up in Afghanistan so there was a lot of support for going into Afghanistan to take him out.

To put forth the idea that Bush did not start a "war" with Afghanistan by invading it, is slightly disingenuous, in my opinion.

To be really technical in your favor though, I can't recall Bush every officially "declaring war" on either Afghanistan OR Iraq.  I would submit that neither instances of military action could be considered real "wars" especially since the people that are shooting at our military are not actually members of any official military of a sovereign nation.  Since those people are basically guerrilla warriors, I would say that we are invaders and occupiers and those trying to shoot at our military at rebels.

But whatever these military excursions are called, I don't see how one can possibly put forth the idea that Bush didn't start either one of them.

To extrapolate on this though, I find it odd that when "terrorists" come into our country and then flee into Afghanistan (who may harbor them but not necessarily direct them or fund them), Afghanistan, a whole nation and its government, is then to held totally accountable for all of those "terrorists" actions.

But when someone in the Bush "administration" is shown to be a criminal of some kind, true of some lesser kind of crime than killing 3000 innocents, that person is somehow a rogue or lone nut or acting on his own and the "administration" is in no way accountable for anything that individual has done.

Would you square that circle for me?

Plane

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2008, 09:11:15 PM »
"...that neither instances of military action could be considered real "wars" especially since the people that are shooting at our military are not actually members of any official military of a sovereign nation."


When was this definition of "war " invented?

Brassmask

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2008, 09:23:24 PM »
"...that neither instances of military action could be considered real "wars" especially since the people that are shooting at our military are not actually members of any official military of a sovereign nation."


When was this definition of "war " invented?

From the Wiki on "war"...

War is an international relations dispute, characterized by organized violence between national military units.
In his seminal work, On War, Carl Von Clausewitz calls war the “continuation of political intercourse, carried on with other means.”[1] War is an interaction in which two or more militaries have a “struggle of wills”.[2] When qualified as a civil war, it is a dispute inherent to a given society, and its nature is in the conflict over state governance rather than sovereignty. War is not murder or genocide because of the usually organized nature of the military's participation in the struggle, and the organized nature of units involved.

...


Conduct of wars

The war to become known as one must entail some degree of confrontation using weapons and other military technology and equipment by armed forces employing military tactics and Operational art within the broad military strategy subject to military logistics. War Studies by military theorists throughout military history have sought to identify the Philosophy of war, and to reduce it to a Military science.

In general modern military science considers several factors before a National defence policy is created to allow a war to commence: the environment in the area(s) of combat operations, the posture national forces will adopt on the commencement of a war, and the type of warfare troops will be engaged in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War#Conduct_of_wars

Plane

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2008, 09:35:40 PM »
Even in the site you cited they didn't insist that war was strictly and only between nations.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/war
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war13 dictionary results for: war
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
war1      /w?r/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wawr] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, warred, war·ring, adjective
–noun 1. a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air. 
2. a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other. 
3. a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812. 
4. active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words. 
5. aggressive business conflict, as through severe price cutting in the same industry or any other means of undermining competitors: a fare war among airlines; a trade war between nations. 
6. a struggle: a war for men's minds; a war against poverty. 
7. armed fighting, as a science, profession, activity, or art; methods or principles of waging armed conflict: War is the soldier's business. 
8. Cards. a. a game for two or more persons, played with a 52-card pack evenly divided between the players, in which each player turns up one card at a time with the higher card taking the lower, and in which, when both turned up cards match, each player lays one card face down and turns up another, the player with the higher card of the second turn taking all the cards laid down. 
b. an occasion in this game when both turned up cards match. 
 
9. Archaic. a battle. 
–verb (used without object) 10. to make or carry on war; fight: to war with a neighboring nation. 
11. to carry on active hostility or contention: Throughout her life she warred with sin and corruption. 
12. to be in conflict or in a state of strong opposition: The temptation warred with his conscience. 
–adjective 13. of, belonging to, used in, or due to war: war preparations; war hysteria. 

BT

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2008, 10:33:33 PM »

Michael Tee

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2008, 11:48:10 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/17/international/asia/17osama.html

Wow that's a real clarion call to action.  Basically saying nothing more than

"OBL is a very bad guy who hates the US and all things American and might be able to do us a lot of harm one day.  He lives in Afghanistan."

I wonder how many similar reports were floating around in those days about Abdul and Umar and Naji and Ghazi, who lived in Baghdad or Beirut or Aleppo or Izmir and were very bad guys (with beards!) who had weapons and hated the U.S.A.  I'll bet that dozens of reports like this have been coming in for decades from all over the Middle East every single day of the year.  No government in the world would act on any one of them unless there was evidence the guy was a perp and had already committed serious crimes against Americans.

Simple prudence would have dictated that airport security be tightened dramatically, but of course the incoming President and Combat-Avoider-in-Chief didn't even dream of it.  And so there was 9-11.

BT

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2008, 07:47:10 AM »
The report reute this statement by Brass:

Quote
Your statement is slightly misleading.  AQ was never proven to be "based in Afghanistan".

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2008, 12:18:41 PM »
"The report reute"... ??? ??? ???
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2008, 12:19:40 PM »
refutes

sirs

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Re: ...hope almost always beats fear
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2008, 12:39:14 PM »
"The report reute"... ??? ??? ???

The spelling nazi strikes again
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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