DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Mucho on November 14, 2006, 02:08:26 PM
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Diversity In Cannon Fodder
By Eugene Robinson
Tuesday, November 14, 2006; A31
It didn't work. The Republican Party put up three high-profile black candidates to try to weaken the bond between the Democratic Party and African Americans, and all three got slammed by the voters, big-time. After a week of reflection, maybe Ken Blackwell, Lynn Swann and Michael Steele have come to understand that they were never intended to be viable candidates. From the start, they were more like cannon fodder.
There is no reason Republicans can't someday win a big share of the African American vote. All the GOP has to do is adopt policies that most black Americans believe will work to their advantage, rather than leave them behind. Oh, and Republicans also need to drop all those coded appeals to white racists, such as the infamous "Playboy party" ad that helped defeat Democrat Harold Ford Jr. in Tennessee.
Instead of making a legitimate play for the black vote, Republicans convinced themselves that tokenism would be enough. Judging from last Tuesday's returns, they didn't convince anybody else.
Whatever Karl Rove was smoking when he issued all those hyper-confident preelection forecasts, he and other Republican strategists couldn't have seriously thought that Ken Blackwell would win the race for governor of Ohio. Blackwell's far-right views are too extreme for a state so evenly divided between red and blue, and his controversial tenure as Ohio's secretary of state -- his decisions may have decided who won that state in the 2004 presidential contest, and thus who won the White House -- ensured that Democrats would be motivated to come out and vote against him.
If Blackwell's candidacy was a long shot, Swann's run for governor of Pennsylvania was more of a joke. The Republicans chose as their candidate a man who was one of the finest wide receivers ever to play in the National Football League -- and who really should have stuck with football.
Swann, a political novice, lost his race by 21 percentage points. He did better than the experienced Blackwell, who lost by 24 points. Swann was merely unimpressive; Blackwell was scary.
Michael Steele's run for the Senate was another story. Steele, Maryland's lieutenant governor, was recruited by the White House to run in what has historically been a Democratic stronghold. He was another sacrificial lamb, like Blackwell and Swann, an African American face meant as a demonstration to voters that the Republican Party had finally become serious about diversity.
Then funny things started happening. Steele's white opponent, Rep. Ben Cardin, ran an unimaginative and plodding campaign. Steele, on the other hand, proved to be a natural on the trail.
Steele's television ads deserve a page in the annals of American politics. Shot against a white background, they had the minimalist look and post-postmodern sensibility of those commercials for Apple or the Gap. They managed to deliver all image and no substance -- and, yes, I meant to use those absolute terms "all" and "no.'' Speaking to the camera, Steele told voters he knew what they were thinking -- but didn't specify what that might be. He promised to be a different kind of senator -- again, no hint of what that might mean. About the only thing the ads firmly established was that Steele likes puppies.
Republican strategists looked at the numbers and saw that Steele might actually win as long as he kept pretending not to be a Republican. Several prominent black Democrats, piqued that there were no African Americans at the top of the ticket in Maryland, endorsed Steele. Some analysts saw the race as a toss-up.
Last week Steele lost by 10 points. That's better than Blackwell and Swann did, but still a landslide.
Nationwide, the black vote went overwhelmingly to Democratic candidates, as usual. In some races, there were indications that Latino voters are becoming angry about the Republicans' demagoguery over the immigration issue.
I remember attending the 2000 Republican convention, when the party made a great show of supposed inclusion. On the podium, you saw a rainbow of speakers and performers. Out in the hall, the number of black and brown faces was statistically insignificant.
Maybe someday the Republican Party will make a serious play for minority voters, but it won't be with a platform of tax cuts for the wealthy and indiscriminate spending cuts for social programs. The party will never break through until it manages to dispel its image of hostility toward policies that seek to lift up the disadvantaged. African Americans would love to have a real choice between the two parties, and maybe we will someday.
In the meantime, Republicans, don't bother with tokens. They don't fool anybody.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/13/AR2006111301053_pf.html
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There is something that Republicans can do.
An increaseing number of Black people are upper middle class or rich.
If it becomes more common for Black people to be successfull and /or well educated it will become more common for them to vote their own minds and in their individual intrest.
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If it becomes more common for Black people to be successfull and /or well educated it will become more common for them to vote their own minds and in their individual intrest.
So, currently, in your opinion Plane, African-Americans aren't educated or wealthy enough to vote "their own minds and in their own individual interests" ?
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So, currently, in your opinion Plane, African-Americans aren't educated or wealthy enough to vote "their own minds and in their own individual interests" ?
I don't think he said that at all. But i certainly agree that with the advent of a black middle and upper class (Buppies) you have more citizens exploring membership in parties other than the democrats.
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If it becomes more common for Black people to be successfull and /or well educated it will become more common for them to vote their own minds and in their individual intrest.
He seems to make a direct correlation between Black people achieving "success" and the increase of the rate of black people voting "their own minds and in their individual intrest."
Does that not imply that African-Americans do not currently vote "their own minds and in their individual intrest" because they lack such "success?"
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There is something that Republicans can do.
An increaseing number of Black people are upper middle class or rich.
If it becomes more common for Black people to be successfull and /or well educated it will become more common for them to vote their own minds and in their individual intrest.
I have heard it said that Dems help the poor group of people,whoever it might be at any given time, to become integrated and successful in the US whereupon they become Repubs. All I am hoping is that some stay and help others to do the same.Repubs can be the greedy shits they want to be , but someone has to care for others until we truly reach the land of mil & honey and we aint there yet, Honey. :-*
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Does that not imply that African-Americans do not currently vote "their own minds and in their individual intrest" because they lack such "success?"
I can't speak for Plane but i do know that W garnered more of the 'Black" vote than many of his predessors. The question then becomes is that a result of integration and educational efforts and economic advancement or is that just a normal statistic that reflects a certain percentage always marching to a different drummer no matter the demographic they belong to.
I happen to think it is a trend and i think more partisan democrats believe it to or why the furious attacks against those who dare wander from the beaten path.
I think the discussion is largely academic anyway as anyone who follows demagraphics realize that brown is the new black.
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I think the discussion is largely academic anyway as anyone who follows demagraphics realize that brown is the new black.
Browns will never be the new Blacks. We have assimilated many previous "browns ". The Blacks and Indians are different from any other racial group. They have a special place in the US wall of white shame.The Indians were already here and we brutally forced them out of and the Blacks were brutally forced in to this land.
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Sorry Knute, White Guilt doesn't work on me. Besides i'm just looking at the numbers. And yes Hispanics do seem to assimilate pretty well.
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Sorry Knute, White Guilt doesn't work on me. Besides i'm just looking at the numbers. And yes Hispanics do seem to assimilate pretty well.
Quilt doesnt work on Sociopaths either. No I am not calling you one. Just observing. Thanx for admitting you were wrong once. (But I bet you will find you were mistaken about that).
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Quilt doesnt work on Sociopaths either.
It works best for little old ladies.
They get together in groups to quilt.
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An increaseing number of Black people are upper middle class or rich.
If it becomes more common for Black people to be successfull and /or well educated it will become more common for them to vote their own minds and in their individual intrest.
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Who says Black people don't vote their own minds and individual interests NOW?
Who are you to assume that voting for Juniorbush and similar clowns is in their interests?
If you are interested in what wealthier Black folks think and do, and how that relates to politics, observe what goes on in Prince Georges (PG) County, Maryland. There are more wealthy Black folks there than anywhere else.
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Who are you to assume that voting for Juniorbush and similar clowns is in their interests?
Who are you to assume that it is not?
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Quilt doesnt work on Sociopaths either. No I am not calling you one. Just observing. Thanx for admitting you were wrong once. (But I bet you will find you were mistaken about that).
Where was i wrong?
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Quilt doesnt work on Sociopaths either. No I am not calling you one. Just observing. Thanx for admitting you were wrong once. (But I bet you will find you were mistaken about that).
Where was i wrong?
Posts: 636
I think the discussion is largely academic anyway as anyone who follows demagraphics realize that brown is the new black.
Then:
And yes Hispanics do seem to assimilate pretty well.
After I said:
I think the discussion is largely academic anyway as anyone who follows demagraphics realize that brown is the new black.
Browns will never be the new Blacks. We have assimilated many previous "browns ". The Blacks and Indians are different from any other racial group. They have a special place in the US wall of white shame.The Indians were already here and we brutally forced them out of and the Blacks were brutally forced in to this land.
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Still don't see where i am wrong, Hispanics have passed blacks in the size of their voting bloc.
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Still don't see where i am wrong, Hispanics have passed blacks in the size of their voting bloc.
In size , maybe , but not in moral power.
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In size , maybe , but not in moral power.
How so? And WTF is moral power?
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Still don't see where i am wrong, Hispanics have passed blacks in the size of their voting bloc.
In size , maybe , but not in moral power.
"Moral Power"?? ???
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I can't speak for Plane but i do know that W garnered more of the 'Black" vote than many of his predessors. The question then becomes is that a result of integration and educational efforts and economic advancement or is that just a normal statistic that reflects a certain percentage always marching to a different drummer no matter the demographic they belong to.
How do you figure that? Bush the elder won 10% of the African American vote in 1992. Dole won 12%. Bush took 8% in 2000 and 11% in 2004. He did no better than his predecessors, certainly not statistically significantly any better than his father and no better than Bob Dole in 1996. It makes your second statement and Plane's veiled racist remark absolutely invalidated.
I think the discussion is largely academic anyway as anyone who follows demagraphics realize that brown is the new black.
Interestingly that is a demographic the Republican Party and people such as Sirs (and many others) simply handed to the Democrats with the Iraq War and immigration discussion. Polls showed that the number one issue facing Hispanics was immigration reform, and that they were 2 to 1 more likely to vote for Democrats based on that issue. In 2004 immigration was very rarely ranked as a top tier issue. By a 62% to 28% margin most Hispanics favored immigration reform, but as I said earlier, they favor the Democrats to do it - not the Republicans. Three-quarters of Hispanic voters feel that discrimination against Hispanics is a problem in the United States.
The Iraq war was also a major issue with roughly 69% disapproval amongst Hispanic voters.
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Interestingly that is a demographic the Republican Party and people such as Sirs (and many others) simply handed to the Democrats with the Iraq War and immigration discussion. Polls showed that the number one issue facing Hispanics was immigration reform, and that they were 2 to 1 more likely to vote for Democrats based on that issue.
Well, you won't get any arguement from me as to the piss poor lack of immigration reform, and the continued notion of amnesty being proposed by Bush. Not very "conservative or pragmatic". The GOP started to figure it out, but much too late in the ball game
And before you even make the knute-like leap, no, that doesn't mean rounding up every illegal immigrant and putting them in camps or deporting them, all in 1 fell swoop
The Iraq war was also a major issue with roughly 69% disapproval amongst Hispanic voters
A true leader by nature doesn't lead by way of what the polls say he needs to lead by. For that, Bush gets some recognition
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In size , maybe , but not in moral power.
How so? And WTF is moral power?
I forgot you guys were no longer moral nor in power anymore. What I mean is that Blacks and American Indians are deserving of special consideration because of what was done to them. Remember , the others came here voluntarily , the Indians were forced off and the blacks forced on this land. I think we have a special moral obligation to them. Some Indians are getting their reparations via legal gambling and some via oil. I am not sure how we can ever compensate the Blacks.
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Well, you won't get any arguement from me as to the piss poor lack of immigration reform, and the continued notion of amnesty being proposed by Bush. Not very "conservative or pragmatic". The GOP started to figure it out, but much too late in the ball game
And before you even make the knute-like leap, no, that doesn't mean rounding up every illegal immigrant and putting them in camps or deporting them, all in 1 fell swoop
The problem is that the Hispanic community did not appreciate the extreme manner in which many Republicans approached the issue. People like JD Hayworth are not what the Hispanic community approves of at large, from what I've read. They seem to prefer amnesty or at least a much more humane plan and an approach that does not use terms like "invasion" and "crisis."
The truth is that Bush did well with Hispanics and Spanish-speaking Hispanics, and the Republican Party destroyed those gains in 2005 and 2006.
A true leader by nature doesn't lead by way of what the polls say he needs to lead by. For that, Bush gets some recognition
And you live with the repercussions that if you send soldiers to die in an unpopular war your party stands to suffer long-term losses. Reagan's people tried to warn Bush.
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If it becomes more common for Black people to be successfull and /or well educated it will become more common for them to vote their own minds and in their individual intrest.
So, currently, in your opinion Plane, African-Americans aren't educated or wealthy enough to vote "their own minds and in their own individual interests" ?
More all the time.
Do white people become traitors to their race by swiching their party? Is this impossible for a White person?
Why are Black people not considered as individuals the way that White people are?
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The problem is that the Hispanic community did not appreciate the extreme manner in which many Republicans approached the issue. People like JD Hayworth are not what the Hispanic community approves of at large, from what I've read. They seem to prefer amnesty or at least a much more humane plan and an approach that does not use terms like "invasion" and "crisis."
Strange. I've read how a predominat amout of Legal Hispanic citizens support immigration reform, including tougher enforcement and no amnesty. In fact, I'm confident that Bush's push for amnesty was a deal breaker for both core conservatives & loyal legal immigrants. And before you ask what that's supposed to mean, it's in reference to the multitude of immigrants that went thru our system legally, and support the need to control our borders
The truth is that Bush did well with Hispanics and Spanish-speaking Hispanics, and the Republican Party destroyed those gains in 2005 and 2006.
And what changed? Oh yea, the push for amnesty. The House finally figured it out, but much too late in the game
And you live with the repercussions that if you send soldiers to die in an unpopular war your party stands to suffer long-term losses. Reagan's people tried to warn Bush.
That's 1 viewpoint. Another is of you continue in failing to stick to the principals that put you in power in the 1st place, you live with the repercussions of that endeavor, including being voted out of power. Whether it's long term or not, depends on if you learned from your mistakes
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Strange. I've read how a predominat amout of Legal Hispanic citizens support immigration reform, including tougher enforcement and no amnesty.
Source?
That's 1 viewpoint. Another is of you continue in failing to stick to the principals that put you in power in the 1st place, you live with the repercussions of that endeavor, including being voted out of power. Whether it's long term or not, depends on if you learned from your mistakes
So you just conveniently ignore the fact that Iraq was so high on the list of priorities for voters? Where did budget deficits rank again Sirs? Where did illegal immigration rank? That's right, far below the Iraq War. In some demographics the Iraq War was #1. In fact, it was priority #1 in the Hispanic demographic that we are currently discussing. Care to address that?
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If it becomes more common for Black people to be successfull and /or well educated it will become more common for them to vote their own minds and in their individual intrest.
So, currently, in your opinion Plane, African-Americans aren't educated or wealthy enough to vote "their own minds and in their own individual interests" ?
More all the time.
Do white people become traitors to their race by swiching their party? Is this impossible for a White person?
Why are Black people not considered as individuals the way that White people are?
I find the question rather strange coming from someone who claims that Black people don't currently vote their "own minds" and "own individual interests." That is a very broad, sweeping, and racist statement for someone who then asks why they aren't considered individuals. Of course "white people" are grouped demographically when they vote as well. White men tend to vote Republican whereas white women tend to vote Democrat. So, of course voting preferences per deomographics are noted by groups from all sides of the political spectrum. Do you really think "don't be a girlie man?" bumper stickers were printed without looking at the demographics? Do you think Republicans in Watts would have used those, considering that Black men vote overwhelmingly Democrat?
The problem here is that you are using knute's racism as an excuse for your own. One does not excuse the other. I don't know why the Republicans do poorly amongst the African-American community. I might suggest that having people like Trent Lott as Senate Minority Leader and Haley Barbour as Governor (and one time RNC Chairman) probably does not help. What certainly doesn't help is telling the African American community that they need to be better educated and wealthier to start voting Republican.
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What certainly doesn't help is telling the African American community that they need to be better educated and wealthier to start voting Republican.
I don't see where he said that.
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Bt:
If it becomes more common for Black people to be successfull and /or well educated it will become more common for them to vote their own minds and in their individual intrest.
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What I mean is that Blacks and American Indians are deserving of special consideration because of what was done to them. Remember , the others came here voluntarily , the Indians were forced off and the blacks forced on this land. I think we have a special moral obligation to them. Some Indians are getting their reparations via legal gambling and some via oil. I am not sure how we can ever compensate the Blacks
as a member neither of these folks
the obligation should extend to opportunity.
everyone should get all the opportunity to do anything.
nothing should be given for something done in the far past.
unless they are still alive.
the mongol`s tried to wipeout my race.
It`s stupid to get money from them now.
I don`t know anyone who gives a rats ass about the mongols and what they did.
also the issue of white guilt is stupid
not all white folks were involved.
in fact some had it worst than blacks.
the term white trash comes to mind
these folks are looked down upon by blacks.
white guilt is absurd.
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also the issue of white guilt is stupid
not all white folks were involved.
in fact some had it worst than blacks.
the term white trash comes to mind
these folks are looked down upon by blacks.
white guilt is absurd.
You don't think Ted Bundy should feel guilty. He doesnt
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/print?id=123763
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The problem here is that you are using knute's racism as an excuse for your own. One does not excuse the other. I don't know why the Republicans do poorly amongst the African-American community. I might suggest that having people like Trent Lott as Senate Minority Leader and Haley Barbour as Governor (and one time RNC Chairman) probably does not help. What certainly doesn't help is telling the African American community that they need to be better educated and wealthier to start voting Republican.
Unless you are black, I dont really give a rats ass that you think I am a racist. I do however wonder how you get off calling me that for only posting two articles by black men and agreeing with them. Perhaps I think you are a racist as well for living in a state that falls for racist TV ads. There is more reason for that than what I did.
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uhm
ted bundy did those crimes
not all white people did what`s accused of them.
a whole lotta people have been falsely accused
The 1st man executed by the electric chair is a relative of mine
should I feel guilty for being related to him?
I don`t and i shouldn`t.
I didn`t kill those people
I never had the ability to keep them alive what so ever.
being white should not mean being guilty of racism by default
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uhm
ted bundy did those crimes
not all white people did what`s accused of them.
a whole lotta people have been falsely accused
The 1st man executed by the electric chair is a relative of mine
should I feel guilty for being related to him?
I don`t and i shouldn`t.
I didn`t kill those people
I never had the ability to keep them alive what so ever.
being white should not mean being guilty of racism by default
Iwas only referring to Bundy to prove that guilt is not always bad. I am not suggesting all whites should feel guilt over their ancestors sins. Many white ancestors werent even in the country then. But those that are rstill practising and espousing racism should feel every bit as guilty as Bundy , but they wont.
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If it becomes more common for Black people to be successfull and /or well educated it will become more common for them to vote their own minds and in their individual intrest.
So, currently, in your opinion Plane, African-Americans aren't educated or wealthy enough to vote "their own minds and in their own individual interests" ?
More all the time.
Do white people become traitors to their race by swiching their party? Is this impossible for a White person?
Why are Black people not considered as individuals the way that White people are?
I find the question rather strange coming from someone who claims that Black people don't currently vote their "own minds" and "own individual interests." That is a very broad, sweeping, and racist statement for someone who then asks why they aren't considered individuals. Of course "white people" are grouped demographically when they vote as well. White men tend to vote Republican whereas white women tend to vote Democrat. So, of course voting preferences per deomographics are noted by groups from all sides of the political spectrum. Do you really think "don't be a girlie man?" bumper stickers were printed without looking at the demographics? Do you think Republicans in Watts would have used those, considering that Black men vote overwhelmingly Democrat?
The problem here is that you are using knute's racism as an excuse for your own. One does not excuse the other. I don't know why the Republicans do poorly amongst the African-American community. I might suggest that having people like Trent Lott as Senate Minority Leader and Haley Barbour as Governor (and one time RNC Chairman) probably does not help. What certainly doesn't help is telling the African American community that they need to be better educated and wealthier to start voting Republican.
My racism is non existant .
I didn't say that a Black person could not make up his mind for himself and as an individual vote for a Democrat. But I am saying that this is the process that any person should go through in such a decision , bandwagon voting is only good for those who can lead the louder band.
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My racism is non existant .
I have observed that racists never think they are and non-racists sometimes wonder if they might be. Not calling you anything . Just an observation.
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JS
I saw the quote.
What are the demographics for the average black republican?
What are the demographics fort the average black democrat?
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Listen, I'm not here to upset anyone. I'm fairly certain that what I read meant exactly what it said, but I could very well be wrong.
Even if it follows demographics as you might suggest Bt, that would only make the original quote itself all the more disturbingly elitist.
Of course, considering that the overwhelming majority of African-Americans vote Democrat the minority that votes Republican would be a statistically outlying sample of the total African-American votes. In other words, there are surely a different set of statistics surrounding them simply because they do not reflect the population as a whole. It would be the same if you polled only those Tennesseans who voted against the ban on gay marriages.
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JS
Your line of thought doesn't upset me in the least.
The point i am making is simple.
Do demographics support the underlying facts of the statement. If so, ascribing motivation seems to be a crapshoot, and in the case of a racism charge, which i believe is overused and is destroying the seriousness of the charge, needs to be supported by a pattern of behavior that i haven't seen in the subject of our discussion.
BTW i certainly appreciate your efforts to raise the bar in this discussion and debate forum.
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Thanks for the compliment.
Honestly, I don't know the answer to your question. It would also be interesting to note the differences in African American voters by gender and geography.
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It would also be interesting to note the differences in African American voters by gender and geography.
That would indeed be interesting. But that wasn't the focus of the statement. Would noticing party preferences of African Americans focusing on gender and geography be flirting with being labelled a a racist also?
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My racism is non existant .
I have observed that racists never think they are and non-racists sometimes wonder if they might be. Not calling you anything . Just an observation.
Then describe what you observe of your self?
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It would also be interesting to note the differences in African American voters by gender and geography.
That would indeed be interesting. But that wasn't the focus of the statement. Would noticing party preferences of African Americans focusing on gender and geography be flirting with being labelled a a racist also?
I am not worried about being harmlessly labeled as a racist , I know myself well enough to consider this a mere distraction.
I like better your focus on the demographic aspect of Black voteing .
Consider trhe implication , what Republicans who want the Black vote may do is try to ensure that there are more economicly successfull black people , what the Democrats that want to keep the black vote may do is the opposite.
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shouldn`t the real question be ,is voting republican better for blacks?
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My racism is non existant .
I have observed that racists never think they are and non-racists sometimes wonder if they might be. Not calling you anything . Just an observation.
Then describe what you observe of your self?
In spite of the fact that I was Chairman of the OC Fair Housing Council and have always worked for civil rights and fairness, I have sometimes wondered bout whether I might harbor some racism. It is rather like those that believe without a doubt that they are great lovers. They invariably are not . While one that does not see himself that way keeps trying to be great.
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I don`t trust chinese politicians.
I`ll even say I won`t vote for them because of their chinese.
I don`t think I`m racist,more like a realist.
a chinese politician will always apply old chinese practices.
which simply is not compatable with americans systems.
ex. matt fong lost the election in san francisco
one of his big mistake is having his mom say how good a boy he is on television.
that just don`t work in the u.s.
it was brutal.
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shouldn`t the real question be ,is voting republican better for blacks?
I would say that giving Black preachers heavy cash to incinerate their congregations to vote against their own best interests begs your question, amended: 'is voting republican better for blacks, or just Republican-purchased black preachers?'
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shouldn`t the real question be ,is voting republican better for blacks?
I would say that giving Black preachers heavy cash to incinerate their congregations to vote against their own best interests begs your question, amended: 'is voting republican better for blacks, or just Republican-purchased black preachers?'
Voting is an important part of the picture , there is also riseing in the ranks of the party and being appointed or elected , there is being active in the party and influential in the party , there is leading and shapeing the party , dealing and tradeing and compromiseing .
Is the Republican party a party that Black people can do these things in?
Is the Black race to be restricted to one party when no other race is so limited?