Author Topic: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)  (Read 8353 times)

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Cynthia

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2007, 11:30:48 PM »
sorry
I tried to stay away
but can`t
but the legal issue is intent of what a funeral supposed to be.
true the church has a right to annoy the grieving family
but that doesn`t mean they should do it
note very few people protest at funerals
it`s a dumb move-globally
also notice after all this time that churches membership hasn`t exactly grown
sorry for the intrusion I stay away from now on

Oh Kimmie,
Don't feel that you have no voice here. I am a bit sensitive too, and not as bright as most who post here, but I like to give my opinions and thoughts. For the most part, XO and M-tee and Bt and plane have been pretty nice to me. I do have to say that I keep crossing my fingers, as I know the anger and the meanspirited behaviors that we all have spewed over the past few years here. Pooch is one of my favorites to read, and you are too. Please don't stay away too long. I will miss your posts.

Cynthia

Plane

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2007, 11:33:14 PM »
thanks
I just need to cool off
but as you said before I can`t just give this up
as you notice by me posting.
I can`t help clicking here by reflex.



Take a break , you might return refreshed, and all the more be a valuable contributor.

Cynthia

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2007, 11:40:06 PM »
"The church members testified they are following their religious beliefs by spreading the message that soldiers are dying because the nation is too tolerant of homosexuality."

How about bring a law suit for liable. How can they make such outrageous statements of illogic?

"The jury first awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages. It returned in the afternoon with its decision to award $6 million in punitive damages for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress."

XO, I was speaking about the "under the law" compensatory damages that were brought forth against the Phelps family. There is a condition in the suit that must have some legal eagle teeth...i.e. emotional distress.

My point was that the argument has soley been on the issue of freedom of speech. What about the other line that was crossed by this family. Isn't that a legal issue? (emotional distress) Obviously, it was so because 2 million dollars was awarded the grieving family because of that point, alone.

Plane

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2007, 11:41:23 PM »
No, I think I haven't been clear Plane.

Like you said, we all have good and bad family and ancestors.

But here's my point. My Grandfather fought for the German Army in World War II. He was a conscript, by no means a Nazi Party member. He fought on the Eastern Front and whatever happened, the war helped to ruin his life.

Now, should I fly the Nazi Flag as a point of heritage?

In the same way a lot of Southerners, including me, had ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. They may not have fought for slavery specifically in their minds, though there is little doubt that they were fighting for a Government that was fighting on behalf of slavery.

Now should I fly a Confederate Flag as a point of heritage?

What would be the difference in flying the Swastika or the Confederate Battle Flag in either case? I could point to either and say, "it is my heritage." That would be true, even though I don't believe either cause was the righteous cause.

Would local Jews have more right to protest a Nazi Flag, flown for German Heritage and WWII losses, than an African-American protesting the Confederate Battle Flag flown for Southern Heritage and Civil War losses? Knowing that both flags are used by white supremacist hate groups.

The Natzis were not white supremicists , they were eager to kill Caucasion people who could give up some Libenstraum for them , wern't most of the victims of German Krieg White? They were Arian Suprimacist and Araian was a flexable enough term for the Government to make it mean whatever they wanted.  The Spanish , French , Polish , Russian victims could not appeal to their whiteness for anything.

The Confederate Battle flag is a symbol of our people , chosen forbeing the product of a valorous time and the possession of a valorous group. What do you suggest as a better symbol of our people?

Cynthia

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2007, 11:48:18 PM »
"I am wondering how much anyone can really be offended by nutty religious fanatics such as these."

No different from the nutty professor in Colorado who teaches his students that victims of 9-11 were little Eichmmans(sp?)


"I don't think that if I had lost a son to the war I would take them seriously at all."

Frankly, your response here is similar to your posts about God and the doubt you feel. There's a deeper element of the human being that brings for feelings we can't understand unless we have "been there" completely and totally. Unless you have believed in Christ, you can't really understand the faith. YOu can intellectualize a great, great, great deal, but you will not be able to compare that with someone who has indeed taken the leap of faith. (imo)

Unless you have had a flesh and blood son die in battle and you are faced on the new battle field where signs are waved with shouts of God is smiling or God is happy that soldiers die, I don't think you can share that experience in depth enought to back up your statement. XO. Just my opinion.

Cynthia

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2007, 11:25:30 AM »
Unless you have believed in Christ, you can't really understand the faith. YOu can intellectualize a great, great, great deal, but you will not be able to compare that with someone who has indeed taken the leap of faith. (imo)

Yeah, sure. Unless I declare that I believe blindly in a whole series of weird beliefs that make no logical sense whatever to me, I cannot know what it is to  renounce all logic and believe weird stuff. I can agree with that.

Some of the people who worked in the WTC were agents of various for-profit organizations that took the lion's share of the resources of poor countries. They weren't killed for that, they were just bloody unlucky. Ward Churchill, the so-called "nutty professor" of whom you speak, is a great writer and thinker, but is also a publicity hound and tends toward flamboyance. I hardly think what he said was any major upset for anyone. It was just a pretext to can him and get him out of the establishment's hair. They know they can't get Noam Chomsky, but they will settle for Ward Churchill.

Again, I hardly believe that anyone considers Phelps to be anything other than a fanatical religious nutball.

To expect wisdom or even truth from him is like expecting The Great Unified Theory to eminate from the Special Olympics, or  Jesus to reincarnate as my cat.

I am not opposed by the government harassing him. He deserves to be harassed, because harassment is his thing. I find this at least as just as waterboarding Dickless Cheney. I don't expect Cheney to be waterboarded, but it would be more than just.

But I don;'t think they have a winning case unless he was either trespassing or interrupting the funeral service.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Stray Pooch

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2007, 01:23:52 PM »
Yeah, sure. Unless I declare that I believe blindly in a whole series of weird beliefs that make no logical sense whatever to me, I cannot know what it is to  renounce all logic and believe weird stuff. I can agree with that.

That's actually not what Cynthia said.  I would interpret her comments as approximately meaning "Unless you have been in a situation like that you cannot have the proper perspective."  I am a retired soldier.  As such, I was trained to always obey the laws of war.  Yet I find it hard to sit in judgement of, say, those marines that killed civilians after their buddy was killed in front of them.  I wasn't there.  I didn't have all of the facts.  I didn't experience the horror.  Maybe under those circumstances I would have killed people indiscriminately too.  If you have a kid killed in battle, maybe you could ignore ignoramuses like the Phelps cult.  But maybe, under the emotional stress of the moment, you would decide to take off a few fanatic heads. 

I think the award is appropriate, given the history of this cult and the inappropriateness of the action.  I do respect free speech, and do not object to the right to express the "God Hates Faggots" message, even though I find it disgusting (and anything but Christian).  But there is more to free speech than the simple right to say anything, anywhere, under any circumstances.  The history of free speech in America is one of evolution, and what is acceptable today is far different from what was acceptable a century ago, or two centuries ago.   A lot has happened to increase free speech beyond its original understanding over even the last 50 years.  The child porn crowd was actually trying to use the first amendment to protect their product back in the seventies. 

But free speech has - and should have - limitations.  Aside from the "crowded theater" scenario, it is well understood that inflammatory speech under circumstances that may lead to violence is not protected.  I remember a case (I cannot remember the specifics) where someone burned a gay flag at a gay pride event and was prosecuted for inciting a riot. This was compared, of course, to burning an American flag and called a double standard.  I think that is a fair assessment, frankly, but there is certainly an argument to be made that burning that flag at a gay rally WAS likely to result in violence.   Imagine how a U.S. flag burning would go down at a Veterans Day commemoration at Fort Bragg, NC.  Posting a "God Hates Faggots" sign on your front lawn is tasteless and idiotic, but it should be protected.  Telling someone that their perfectly straight, decent, Christian son who was killed in combat died because God Hates Faggots is a pretty good way to get me a "God Hates Faggots" sign in your ass.

Had this been an isolated incident, a hand-slap may have been appropriate.  But the fact is, this group continues to do this.  And the language they use is clearly inflammatory.  "God Hates Faggots" is not the same emotionally as "God disapproves of homosexual behavior."   It is not unlikely that one of these days somebody is going to make a few martyrs out of the idiots.  Then, of course, that somebody will end up in jail - and rightly so.  I think sucking the financial life out of these nutcases is better than having that scenario play out.  And given that the organization has nowhere near that amount of money, lowering the award is unlikely to alter the reality of it.   No doubt there will be someone perfectly willing to take up the issue of free speech on principle, but I think in this case the principle does not apply.

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Plane

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2007, 03:47:16 PM »
  We should worry that this case will wind its way through the courts and wind up getting a strange interpretation at a high level court.

    Given oppurtunitys like this the Court seems capricious .

Stray Pooch

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2007, 10:42:18 PM »
Given oppurtunitys like this the Court seems capricious .

Is that a fancy of saying "dumb as bricks?"
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The_Professor

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2007, 10:43:35 PM »
perhaps, just unfathomable?
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Cynthia

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2007, 11:16:27 PM »
"That's actually not what Cynthia said.  I would interpret her comments as approximately meaning "Unless you have been in a situation like that you cannot have the proper perspective."

Yes, Pooch, that's what I meant. I thought XO would get that, but I can appreciate his need for debate.


Cynthia

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2007, 12:01:23 AM »
Unless you have believed in Christ, you can't really understand the faith. YOu can intellectualize a great, great, great deal, but you will not be able to compare that with someone who has indeed taken the leap of faith. (imo)

Yeah, sure. Unless I declare that I believe blindly in a whole series of weird beliefs that make no logical sense whatever to me, I cannot know what it is to  renounce all logic and believe weird stuff. I can agree with that.

Some of the people who worked in the WTC were agents of various for-profit organizations that took the lion's share of the resources of poor countries. They weren't killed for that, they were just bloody unlucky. Ward Churchill, the so-called "nutty professor" of whom you speak, is a great writer and thinker, but is also a publicity hound and tends toward flamboyance. I hardly think what he said was any major upset for anyone. It was just a pretext to can him and get him out of the establishment's hair. They know they can't get Noam Chomsky, but they will settle for Ward Churchill.

Again, I hardly believe that anyone considers Phelps to be anything other than a fanatical religious nutball.

To expect wisdom or even truth from him is like expecting The Great Unified Theory to eminate from the Special Olympics, or  Jesus to reincarnate as my cat.

I am not opposed by the government harassing him. He deserves to be harassed, because harassment is his thing. I find this at least as just as waterboarding Dickless Cheney. I don't expect Cheney to be waterboarded, but it would be more than just.

But I don;'t think they have a winning case unless he was either trespassing or interrupting the funeral service.


I would rather see Noam Chompsky as liberal as he was in the past stand tall against the likes of the nutty professor. Chompsky is a brilliant man. Churchill is a matchstick in the liberal world ready to set fires where ever he can to get attention.
Poor comparison, XO.

We all have our "thoughts". You're thoughts are just a bit too quick to support the nutcases of the world.
But I appreciate your thoughts.

Cynthia

Plane

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2007, 06:26:37 AM »
Given opportunity's like this the Court seems capricious .

Is that a fancy of saying "dumb as bricks?"


Only Stray Pooch could make that a rhyme.

Plane

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2007, 06:30:04 AM »
perhaps, just unfathomable?

Hmmmmm...

They are doctors of the law , and they do get to wear gowns in public.

Perhaps they understand the question at a deeper level than I can approach.


Making it appropriate for them to make rulings that no one understands as justice.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Gay-bashing church pickets GI funeral - damages $11 million (almost)
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2007, 07:11:31 AM »
Ward Churchill had tenure. By firing him for simply expressing his opinion, ie that some of the WTC employees were bureaucrats who made decisions that resulted in people in Third World countries dying (which is undisputably TRUE, by the way), every tenured professor in Colorado and perhaps the entire nation is put on alert that they must never say anything out of line.

Churchill did not cause a riot or harm to anyone by stating what he did. And it's TRUE.

Decisions made in the WTC allowed Nigeria to continue to destroy the environment and livelihood of people living in the Niger delta with oil pollution, causaed by sloppy Nigerian and foreign companies, which have contributed none of the oil revenues to the people whose lives they have destroyed. What goes on in Equatorial Guinea is even worse than that.

If Churchill made the right people think about the results of their actions, perhaps many people would not die in the name of profits for Big Oil and corruption of national leaders.

I suggest that all you know about Ward Churchill is crap from the rightwing press and goons like Limbaugh, who are paid bigtime to propagandize people like you.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."