Author Topic: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)  (Read 7045 times)

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fatman

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2008, 11:43:21 PM »
even the new york times admits progress in iraq
so now lets see
everybody including the NY Times is in on the big conspiracy to connect your looney dots?
obama doesn't want to go to iraq because he'll be in a "catch 22"
he'll see lots of progress and thus his doom/gloom wont make sense or sell as well

So why are the majority of Americans still against the war in Iraq?  I'm serious here, if the bastion of liberalism, the NYT is admitting progress, why are the people against it?

"Which comes closest to your view about what the U.S. should now do about the number of U.S. troops in Iraq? The U.S. should send more troops to Iraq. The U.S. should keep the number of troops as it is now. The U.S. should withdraw some troops from Iraq. OR, The U.S. should withdraw all of its troops from Iraq."
 
     .
 
  Send More   Keep SameNumber  WithdrawSome  WithdrawAll  Unsure
  %                  %                     %                      %           %
  15                 17                      28                     34           6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A majority doesn't like war , a minority wants to retreat.

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
 


Thanks for the poll Plane, I looked for a recent one but couldn't find one.

A majority doesn't like war , a minority wants to retreat.

That's certainly one way of putting it, another would be that 32% favor escalation or the status quo, while 62% favor either complete or partial withdrawal.  This is important, what with all the saber rattling about Iran and all.  Twice as many people favor some form of withdrawal opposed to staying the course, this actually surprises me.  I would have thought that the number would have been closer.

All this said, while I would like to see a drawdown soon, I think that Petraeus and Gates are very intelligent and capable men, and I would, for the most part, defer to their judgement, unless I see reason to do otherwise.

Plane

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2008, 12:00:12 AM »



All this said, while I would like to see a drawdown soon, I think that Petraeus and Gates are very intelligent and capable men, and I would, for the most part, defer to their judgement, unless I see reason to do otherwise.


A partial withdrawal is a means of maximiseing our losses ,that isn't hard to understand , the bigger gang dominates the fight.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2008, 12:08:15 AM »
"So why are the majority of Americans still against the war in Iraq?  I'm serious here,
if the bastion of liberalism, the NYT is admitting progress, why are the people against it?"


Fatman for the sake of brevity and to answer your question my opinion is:
I think it is because in general people do not like war. War is ugly. War is costly.
As General Sherman said "War Is Hell". So it is not a surprise that people are "against war".
Also Fatman I believe there is an element of most of the people not realizing the
consequences of pulling out of Iraq. A short attention span and the need for immediate
gratification is one of the disadvantages we face against an enemy that views "the battle
with the infidel" as a conflict that can last for centuries if needed. I am pleased to see you
have confidence in President Bush appointees Petraeus and Gates. Both seem to be doing
a very good job under difficult circumstances.






"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2008, 12:29:03 AM »
<<A partial withdrawal is a means of maximiseing our losses ,that isn't hard to understand , the bigger gang dominates the fight.>>

Partial withdrawal is a purely political compromise.  From a military POV I think you're either in or you're out. Pulling out some just signals to the enemy that he is on the right track and his sacrifices have paid off.  Keep fighting and nest time they'll pull out more and so on until they're all gone.  So I think the only viable choices are stay in the fight with the same number of troops, stay in and raise troop levels or pull out. 

If this thing to date really has cost three trillion bucks, as Prof. Stiglitz says, then IMHO you just cannot afford to see this through even if progress were being made (which I don't believe is the case anyway.)  So the decision has to be to pull out.  This will become more apparent as the collapse of the U.S. dollar really sinks into the consciousness of the people through its effect on their daily lives, as it is now starting to do at the gas pumps.

<<Also Fatman I believe there is an element of most of the people not realizing the
consequences of pulling out of Iraq. >>

With all due respect, CU4, I don't believe anyone really knows "the consequences of pulling out of Iraq."  A lot of things might happen, some good, some not so good.  I remember when everyone in authority used to trot out the "Domino Theory" to explain all the bad things that would follow if the U.S. pulled out of Viet Nam, specifically the serial collapse of pro-U.S. regimes all across Southeast Asia.  Never happened.

OTOH, the consequences of continuing the war are becoming clear - - a ruined U.S. dollar which has lost the power to buy the gas the average family needs and will soon fail as well in purchasing food, to the extent that the cost of food reflects the cost of fossil fuel.

Plane

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2008, 12:42:37 AM »
the "Domino Theory" to explain all the bad things that would follow if the U.S. pulled out of Viet Nam, specifically the serial collapse of pro-U.S. regimes all across Southeast Asia.  Never happened.



Yes after exausting the Communists fighting first the french then the US , they still managed to knock ove three dominos , but the Cambodia Domino went so disgustingly wrong that Communism will never clean the stain from itself .

If Communism had not been resisted it would have all the more spread and dominated, ruining the environment of the lands it took , ruining the lives of every person in the name of the People.

Fighting Communism was never a bad idea , even when it hurt us severely , it hurt even more the people who were taken under the iron curtain.

Michael Tee

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2008, 04:11:45 PM »
<<If Communism had not been resisted it would have all the more spread and dominated, ruining the environment of the lands it took , ruining the lives of every person in the name of the People.>>

That is pure speculation on your part, and it's not even likely, given the national character of the Vietnamese Communist Party and the National Liberation Front.  As most serious historians seem to recognize, the struggle was conducted by the Vietnamese people, led by the Communists and Ho Chi Minh, not by any international or even regional communist movement.  For example, the Vietnamese Communist Party had no interest in Burma (Myanmar,) Malaysia, Indonesia or any other country, although they did in fact have fraternal relations with other communist parties. 

As opposed to your speculation, the FACTS are that the "loss" of Viet Nam to the Communists was NOT followed by the collapse of any single domino referred to in the Domino Theory.  Laos and Cambodia were brought into the war by U.S. attacks against them (in Cambodia's case, by deliberate U.S. subversion and overthrow of the existing neutralist government) but the "dominoes" of the theory were strategically important pro-American governments of Thailand, Malaysia, etc.  The Domino Theory was a complete fraud.  There was never any evidence supporting it other than pure speculation, and in the actual historical event, when it was tested, it failed completely.  No dominoes fell.

<<Fighting Communism was never a bad idea , even when it hurt us severely , it hurt even more the people who were taken under the iron curtain.>>

When you judge the worth of an activity by who got hurt more, it's like beating yourself and another guy over the head with a hammer, three strokes to your own head for every five strokes to his.  According to you, it's not a bad idea if the other guy comes off the worse.  Sorry, but to me, that's just nuts. 

Apart from everything else, there are probably millions of widows, orphans, cripples and majorly fucked-up individuals all over America and Viet Nam who might want to differ with you on how good of an idea it really was after all.

Plane

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2008, 04:20:16 PM »
"That is pure speculation on your part,..."


Since world dominion of Communism was a stated goal of Communist leadership , why is repeating this speculative at all?

Michael Tee

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2008, 04:36:10 PM »
<<Since world dominion of Communism was a stated goal of Communist leadership , why is repeating this speculative at all?>>

It's speculative because you can't connect victory of the Vietnamese Communists to world dominion of communism.  Their victory had very little effect on the ability of the capitalist powers to protect their own interests closer to home.

Anyway, you're a little behind in your knowledge of communist goals.  Stalin gave up world dominion of communism for "socialism in one country" back in the 1930s.  Trotsky didn't get the message, so Stalin sent him a follow-up, in the form of an ice-pick to the brain.  "World dominion" died a long time ago, plane, before you were even born.

Plane

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2008, 04:44:14 PM »
<<Since world dominion of Communism was a stated goal of Communist leadership , why is repeating this speculative at all?>>

It's speculative because you can't connect victory of the Vietnamese Communists to world dominion of communism.  Their victory had very little effect on the ability of the capitalist powers to protect their own interests closer to home.

Anyway, you're a little behind in your knowledge of communist goals.  Stalin gave up world dominion of communism for "socialism in one country" back in the 1930s.  Trotsky didn't get the message, so Stalin sent him a follow-up, in the form of an ice-pick to the brain.  "World dominion" died a long time ago, plane, before you were even born.

After Stalin said that he was not for world dominion , he proceeded to conquer half of Finland , a big wedge of Poland , and kill off the resistance in his new territorys .

After the time of the war was over and the Allience was no longer needed , there seemed to be a Iron curtain made for the domination of everything the Soviet Union could cover , I think of the Soviet Crush of the  Prague spring as a simple exercise in imperialism , why shouldn't I.

Go ahead and find for me the Quote you speak of which preceeded all of this , I am pretty sure that I can find some thing Kruchev said afterwards.

Michael Tee

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2008, 06:02:40 PM »
<<After Stalin said that he was not for world dominion , he proceeded to conquer half of Finland , a big wedge of Poland , and kill off the resistance in his new territorys.>>

In Finland, Stalin made very limited territorial demands for naval bases and that the border be moved a short distance back from Leningrad, out of fear of a German attack through Finland.  The Finns refused these limited demands and Stalin took the action he felt he needed to take to protect the U.S.S.R. from an inevitable Nazi attack.  As it turned out, Stalin was right about the dangers he faced.

In the case of Poland, Stalin had two choices:  hang back and let the Nazis take the whole country, landing them right on the Russian border, or grab a strip of land 200 miles wide, formerly Russian territory, and taken by force during the Russian Civil War by Polish troops.  Poland in any event was lost.  If he did not grab the 200-mile strip, the Nazis would have.

Both of those essentially defensive actions are not even remotely connected to the "world dominion" that you ludicrously claim to have been Stalin's goal.  There is a lot of world left over after you take the 200-mile strip of Poland, and the 16-mile readjustment of the Russo-Finish border.

<<After the time of the war was over and the Allience was no longer needed , there seemed to be a Iron curtain made for the domination of everything the Soviet Union could cover>>

All of those "dominated" countries with the exceptions of Poland and the Czech part of Czechoslovakia were former Nazi allies which had participated in the Nazi invasion of the U.S.S.R.  The U.S.S.R. had every right to dominate them militarily.  What did you think, they should have freed them to join NATO and participate in yet another Western attack on the Soviet Union? 

<< I think of the Soviet Crush of the  Prague spring as a simple exercise in imperialism , why shouldn't I.>>

Kinda like the U.S.-British imperialism's crushing of the anti-fascist Greek Resistance in the Greek Civil War in 1944?  Or the forcible return of Viet Nam to the French colonial orbit as a reward for their anti-Japanese resistance during WWII?  Yeah, I kind of see what you're driving at.  Still doesn't add up to a quest for world dominion, any more than the Viet Nam War taking place at the same time as the Prague Spring and with a lot more bloodshed too, I might add.

<<Go ahead and find for me the Quote you speak of which preceeded all of this , I am pretty sure that I can find some thing Kruchev said afterwards.>>

"Socialism in One Country?"  It's a pretty well-known quote.  I wouldn't waste a minute of my time to verify it.  Everyone knows it.  I accept it, and you're free to take it or leave it, as you choose.

Plane

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2008, 11:54:25 PM »
 I really doubt that the land grabs of Stalin had anything to do with defense , if Stalin were interested in Defense he might not have armed and trained the German Panzer forces and air forces with equipment and training grounds in Soviet territory. Perhaps he might have avoided killing half of his officer corps in purges for the sake of political purity , at the cost of getting rid of most of his well educated officers.No even the Polish and Finnish territory taken was useless for defense because no defense was prepared there. The Red Army instead got busy carrying out its orders to consolidate dominance of the locals , in Poland this amounted to killing most of the well educated.

At wars end, We should have treated France the way that the Soviet Union treated Poland and Chezhoslovachia? Perhaps we should have treated Austria the way the Soviet union treated Hungary?They all participated in Natzi works and fighting but  the excuse is hollow.

  After the war the us and the Allies underwent a massive return to civilian activity , if Stalin had understood the wisdom of that he might have preserved the  allience into peacetime  and instead of wasteing all the resorces that went into domination of his empire and the pursuance of the cold war , the Soviet Union could have got into the business of recovery full force the way the Allies did. There was no preparation at the end of the war to invade the Soviet Union , none at all , the imperialism of the Soviet union is unexcused by anything but greed.

I really doubt that the land grabs of Stalin had anything to do with defense , if Stalin were interested in Defense he might not have armed and trained the German Panzer forces and air forces with equipment and training grounds in Soviet territory. Perhaps he might have avoided killing half of his officer corps in purges for the sake of political purity , at the cost of getting rid of most of his well educated officers.

I am not sure when Stalin rejected expantion verbally , but I am quite aware that he never passed up a chance for expantion in fact. Later on Breznev did the same and stated that no Communist Government should ever be allowed to backslide and leave the communist fold .

Luckily they were swimming against the current , people who experience Communism often wish for better.

Michael Tee

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2008, 03:57:57 AM »
 <<I really doubt that the land grabs of Stalin had anything to do with defense , if Stalin were interested in Defense he might not have armed and trained the German Panzer forces and air forces with equipment and training grounds in Soviet territory. >>

The training program you are referring to began during the time of the Weimar Republic and was not renewed when it terminated some time in the mid 1930s.  The so-called "land grab" occurred in 1939, by which time Stalin's ideas on defence had evolved considerably, as had the ideas of every other European leader.

<<Perhaps he might have avoided killing half of his officer corps in purges for the sake of political purity , at the cost of getting rid of most of his well educated officers.>>

I don't know where you get this "half the officer corps" bullshit - - probably the same anti-Soviet garbage that accuses Stalin of "millions" of murders - - but in fact the trial of Marshal Tukhashevsky proved clearly that Stalin had every reason to fear a coup from the officer corps and probably led by Tukhashevsky, although there is some indication now that the Marshal MAY have been framed by German intelligence.  No one will ever know.  In any event, there is no inconsistency between a desire to defend the Motherland by force of arms and a desire to avoid a military coup.  The two are not only mutually compatible, but good policy as well.

<<No even the Polish and Finnish territory taken was useless for defense because no defense was prepared there. >>

Nonsense.  The frontiers were re-located accordingly once the land was secured, and defended in accordance with whatever the general defence plan of the USSR prescribed for the frontiers.  Why wouldn't they be?

<<The Red Army instead got busy carrying out its orders to consolidate dominance of the locals>>

I'm SHOCKED.  An occupying army that consolidates its dominance of the locals.  What an amazing concept.  Obviously at odds with the idea of adding land as a buffer to an attack.

<< , in Poland this amounted to killing most of the well educated.>>

Who by some strange twist of fate happened to come from the aristocratic and haute-bourgeoisie classes and were fervently anti-Communist and anti-Russian.  What Stalin SHOULD have done, obviously, was teach them all to sing the Russian version of Kumbayah, then they could have held hands together and swayed to the beat.

<<At wars end, We should have treated France the way that the Soviet Union treated Poland and Chezhoslovachia?>>

I know, that's sarcasm.  Based on the idea that the USSR was just beastly and horrid to Poland and Czechoslovakia, right?  Well here's a news flash for ya, plane -- - they weren't anywhere near as beastly and horrid as America was to the Vietnamese.  Never dropped napalm or WP on them, that's for God-damn sure.  Never killed millions of 'em.  Never put 'em in tiger cages.  I never saw a Polack burning himself alive to protest the Soviet occupation. Never saw a Czech prisoner thrown out of a helicopter. 

<<Perhaps we should have treated Austria the way the Soviet union treated Hungary?They all participated in Natzi works and fighting but  the excuse is hollow.>>

Oh, the excuse is hollow, eh?  And I suppose that comes out of your vast knowledge of the Nazi occupation of the USSR, in which the Hungarian army was a full-fledged participant?  Maybe you should take a look at this, plane, read it to the end if you can, it's an account of the Nazi occupation, and THEN tell me how "hollow" the excuse is, in your esteemed opinion:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1942/420106b.html

<<After the war the us and the Allies underwent a massive return to civilian activity . . . >>

Huh?  They DID???  I musta bin living on another planet or something.  In the world I lived in, the Selective Service Act was allowed to run its original term to one or two years after the end of the war and then extended into a permanent peace-time draft.

<<the Soviet Union could have got into the business of recovery full force the way the Allies did. >>

Yeah, sure, while the U.S. continued to enforce its Selective Service Act, which was enacted in 1940 expressly to prepare for WWII, after WWII was all over.

<<There was no preparation at the end of the war to invade the Soviet Union >>

I don't think that would have been a good idea.  There WAS this little thing called the atom bomb though, something that America had a monopoly on at the time, and just wouldn't give up.   Sure woulda made ME nervous, if I were Uncle Joe.  Considering the hostility to Communism so prevalent in American ruling class circles.  And not unknown in the American military either, as General Patton's example clearly proves.

<<none at all , the imperialism of the Soviet union is unexcused by anything but greed.>>

It was perfectly natural for the Red Army to lend assistance to local anti-fascist Resistance leaders, many of whom were in fact Communists or socialists, when they came into conflict with surviving collaborators who had served the Nazis in the course of the war.  The USSR was not going to fight an exhausting war on Nazi Germany, only to be stabbed in the back after the war by Hungarian, Slovak, Romanian or other fascist collaborators who would like nothing better than to be allowed to sabotage the Revolution and set up "nationalist" parties to continue the Nazi project of fascist rule and killing off whatever local Jews were still left alive.  A lot of Red Army men and women were raised on slogans like "Death to Fascism" and when they said it they meant it.

Plane

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2008, 05:36:45 AM »
Huh?  They DID???  I musta bin living on another planet or something.  In the world I lived in, the Selective Service Act was allowed to run its original term to one or two years after the end of the war and then extended into a permanent peace-time draft.


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So you don't know that the Armed forces shrank ?

You didn't know that dozens of PT boats were burned , battleships sunk , tons of rifles thrown into the ocean, pistols and binoculars smashed with bulldozers , planes and jeeps sold for a song.

In the world you lived in the Allies didn't build down? In the world of Stalinist propaganda everything we really did was reversed.Were you liveing in that world.

In Korea not only did we have no tanks , we forbid our ally from getting any of his own. There was really no preparation for invadeing North Korea , or the Soviet Union at all.

Amianthus

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2008, 07:49:57 AM »
Perhaps we should have treated Austria the way the Soviet union treated Hungary?

Austria was partitioned like Germany after the war. My parents lived in the Soviet section.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2008, 07:56:50 AM »
It is ridiculous to compare the Iraq War with WWII or any aspect of the Cold War, such as the Korean War or the Vietnam War, other than to point out that these wars were all avoidable, destructive and stupid.

One can dispute the size of the Red Menace and the intent of the Communists, but it is pretty clear that Al Qaeda is in no way comparable in any way with the Soviet Red Army or the Chinese Army.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."