Whats Obama afraid of ? (seeing progress?)

[Amianthus]

The so-called "land grab" occurred in 1939, by which time Stalin's ideas on defence had evolved considerably, as had the ideas of every other European leader.

The lands that the Soviets took "just happened" to be the same lands that they asked the Germans for in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - just a coincidence, huh?

[Michael Tee]

<<You didn't know that dozens of PT boats were burned , battleships sunk , tons of rifles thrown into the ocean, pistols and binoculars smashed with bulldozers , planes and jeeps sold for a song.>>

I believe the thinking at the time was that with the A-bomb on the racks, the other stuff was kind of pointless.  The monopoly on nukes trumped all those binoculars, pistols, etc.  Nobody (apart from a few visionaries) foresaw wars of national liberation.  The U.S. refused to share the Bomb's technology with its Soviet Allies, maintained a peacetime draft which was previously unheard of and maintained a constant stream of anti-Soviet bullshit to the extent that politicians like Henry Wallace, FDR's VP, had to leave the Democratic Party to run as a Progressive in the 1948 elections.  The U.S.S.R. had a pretty good indication of the Allies' real intentions during the Greek Civil War, as early as 1944, when the British Army intervened on behalf of Royalist guerrillas against the Communist forces which had conducted the major part of the anti-Nazi Resistance. 

I think if you really want to get into the origins of the Cold War, you'd also have to investigate the so-called Polish Question, and the pro-fascist activities of the Knights of Columbus in the U.S.A., first on behalf of Fascist Spain, preventing any Allied retaliation against a country which had sent an entire division of "volunteers" to invade the U.S.S.R. and was now, thanks to U.S. and British foreign policy, to be allowed to continue its Fascist regime indefinitely into the future.

The bottom line is that the Soviets had a great deal to fear from an anti-Communist U.S.A. with a nuclear monopoly and as they soon became encircled by a string of U.S. bases, events proved them right.

[Amianthus]

I don't know where you get this "half the officer corps" bullshit - - probably the same anti-Soviet garbage that accuses Stalin of "millions" of murders - - but in fact the trial of Marshal Tukhashevsky proved clearly that Stalin had every reason to fear a coup from the officer corps and probably led by Tukhashevsky, although there is some indication now that the Marshal MAY have been framed by German intelligence.  No one will ever know.

According to records, well over half the upper officers:

The purge of the army removed three of five marshals (then equivalent to six-star generals), 13 of 15 army commanders (then equivalent to four- and five-star generals), eight of nine admirals (the purge fell heavily on the Navy, who were suspected of exploiting their opportunities for foreign contacts), 50 of 57 army corps commanders, 154 out of 186 division commanders, 16 of 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars. In total, 30,000 members of the armed forces were arrested and executed.

The Great Purge

Also, the documents incriminating Marshal Tukhachevsky are known to be forgeries, since several of the people supposedly writing those letters had already been jailed at the time they were supposed to have been written.

[Michael Tee]

<<The lands that the Soviets took "just happened" to be the same lands that they asked the Germans for in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - just a coincidence, huh?>>

Of course it's not a coincidence.  The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression pact between the two countries signed by Russia after failing in three years of negotiations to get a defence agreement from Britain and France.  It was Stalin's last option.  Since it provided that Germany was going to get Poland anyway (one of the reasons for failure of the Anglo-French-USSR negotiations was that Poland refused to grant a right of passage to the Red Army in the event of hostilities breaking out between France and Germany, so Russia could not have come to France's aid without having to fight Poland too) so the Soviets figured, fuck it, if the Germans are gonna take Poland, we need a little buffer.  And I guess you could say the Polacks brought this one on themselves because of the anti-Soviet bias of their leader, Marshal Pilsudski, which had deprived Stalin of his first choice, a defence pact with France and Britain.

The Finnish lands referred to in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact were the same lands previously demanded by Russia from Finland - - a couple of naval bases and a border readjustment of about 16 miles to move the border back from Leningrad in case of a German occupation of Finland with or without Finnish complicity.

Neither one of these piddling little demands were anything like the evidence of a Soviet goal of world domination that plane tries to make them out to be.

[Amianthus]

The Finnish lands referred to in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact were the same lands previously demanded by Russia from Finland - - a couple of naval bases and a border readjustment of about 16 miles to move the border back from Leningrad in case of a German occupation of Finland with or without Finnish complicity.

Actually, the "Finnish lands" that the Soviets asked for was all of Finland.

Here is a map of the partition in the pact:

[Michael Tee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ribbentrop-Molotov.svg

Cute map.  Actually it's one of two; above is the link.  On the first map, all of Finland is assigned to the Russian "sphere of influence" as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.  On the second map, showing the actual occupations undertaken by the USSR and Germany under the pact, it shows how much of Finland was actually taken - - more or less as I originally stated, a small sliver, just enough to push back the border about 16 miles from Leningrad.  Can't tell from the scale, but it looks like less than 1% of the Finnish land mass. 

Again, in the context that this matter was first raised, Russia's alleged desire for world domination, sure looks to me like there's a lot of world left over after this tiny sliver of Finnish territory is taken out and moved into Russian domain.

[Amianthus]

Cute map.  Actually it's one of two; above is the link.  On the first map, all of Finland is assigned to the Russian "sphere of influence" as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.  On the second map, showing the actual occupations undertaken by the USSR and Germany under the pact, it shows how much of Finland was actually taken - - more or less as I originally stated, a small sliver, just enough to push back the border about 16 miles from Leningrad.  Can't tell from the scale, but it looks like less than 1% of the Finnish land mass. 

I never disagreed that the Russians only acquired a small portion of Finland; as such, your argument here is a strawman.

The point I made, which the original map reinforced, was that Russia wanted all of Finland. Just because Hitler never intended to give it to them (even though he initially agreed) doesn't mean that they didn't want it.

[Plane]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ribbentrop-Molotov.svg

Cute map.  Actually it's one of two; above is the link.  On the first map, all of Finland is assigned to the Russian "sphere of influence" as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.  On the second map, showing the actual occupations undertaken by the USSR and Germany under the pact, it shows how much of Finland was actually taken - - more or less as I originally stated, a small sliver, just enough to push back the border about 16 miles from Leningrad.  Can't tell from the scale, but it looks like less than 1% of the Finnish land mass. 

Again, in the context that this matter was first raised, Russia's alleged desire for world domination, sure looks to me like there's a lot of world left over after this tiny sliver of Finnish territory is taken out and moved into Russian domain.

The Soviets tried to take all of Finland , but their recently purged forces were not up to it .

Imagine the glee of Hitler seeing his prospective target displaying such weakness in the face of a much smaller opponent , such things led him to say that a kick on the door would down the whole house of the Soviet Union.

I still do not see any evidence that Stalin or any other Soviet leader ever passed up a chance at aggrandisement of the Empire.

[Plane]

<<The Red Army instead got busy carrying out its orders to consolidate dominance of the locals>>

I'm SHOCKED.  An occupying army that consolidates its dominance of the locals.  What an amazing concept.  Obviously at odds with the idea of adding land as a buffer to an attack.

Good start thinking of Iraq in terms of a buffer against attack.

<< , in Poland this amounted to killing most of the well educated.>>

Who by some strange twist of fate happened to come from the aristocratic and haute-bourgeoisie classes and were fervently anti-Communist and anti-Russian.  What Stalin SHOULD have done, obviously, was teach them all to sing the Russian version of Kumbayah, then they could have held hands together and swayed to the beat.

So he really needed to shoot a few thousand of them?Mostly as exicutions without trial?

[Amianthus]

Can't tell from the scale, but it looks like less than 1% of the Finnish land mass. 

When you include all three sections taken by the Soviet (Karelia, Salla, and Pechenga) Finland lost about 10% of it's land mass and 20% of it's industrial capacity to the Soviets. And it was more like 50 miles, not 16.

[Michael Tee]

<<I still do not see any evidence that Stalin or any other Soviet leader ever passed up a chance at aggrandisement of the Empire.>>

Austria's the first example that comes to mind, of course. 

But "aggrandisement of the Empire" is a loaded phrase.  The U.S.S.R. has suffered terribly from invasions launched from the west, so I think "keeping the former aggressors on a very short leash" is just as accurate a way of describing Stalin's European policy.  And much nicer, too.  I recall some very ugly scenes when the fascists briefly got the upper hand in Budapest in 1956, but thank God they were put down relatively quickly by the Red Army, while the USSR's former American ally merely stood by and fanned the flames via the Voice of America.

[Michael Tee]

<<Good start thinking of Iraq in terms of a buffer against attack.>>

Well, I would, except that, like all the rest of Bush's explanations, it's just one big lie.

<<So he really needed to shoot a few thousand of them?Mostly as exicutions without trial?>>

No, he should have forgotten all about preparing for the coming Nazi attack and devoted at least fifty per cent of the state's resources into providing trials for tens of thousands of anti-Soviet enemies of the people.  And left the non-communist Polish intellectuals up to their usual habits of undermining socialism, plotting against Russia and writing ever more elaborate treatises on why the Jews are a poison in the noble soul of the Polish people.

Just to put a little perspective into this, plane, it wasn't even twenty years since the last Polish attack on Russian territory, when the Poles, taking advantage of the Russian Civil War, had attacked Russia and taken the very territory that Russia was only now, in 1939, going to get back.  Land that wasn't even inhabited by Poles, but by Belorussians and Russians.  Something I'm sure that none of your American "history" textbooks  ever mention, just as they'll never mention the Russo-Polish War.  Of course not, how can they?  Russia is the "aggressor."  Russia has always been the "aggressor."   

Whoever is in charge of the Great Brainwashing of the American People really did a magnificent job on it.  I congratulate him or her without reservation.

[Amianthus]

Austria's the first example that comes to mind, of course. 

Actually, Austria pretty much bought off the Russians to get them to leave.

But "aggrandisement of the Empire" is a loaded phrase.

You're complaining when someone else uses loaded phrases like you constantly do? Think you have a copyright on use of loaded phrases?

[Michael Tee]

<<Actually, Austria pretty much bought off the Russians to get them to leave.>>

Gee, those evil, greedy little red bastards.  And after all the good things Austria did for them, too.

<<Think you have a copyright on use of loaded phrases?>>

If I ever did, either it's expired a long time ago or you and your right-wing pals are pretty brazen.

[Plane]

<<Good start thinking of Iraq in terms of a buffer against attack.>>

Well, I would, except that, like all the rest of Bush's explanations, it's just one big lie.

Why do you accept this line from Stalin then , was he famous for honesty?

<<So he really needed to shoot a few thousand of them?Mostly as exicutions without trial?>>

No, he should have forgotten all about preparing for the coming Nazi attack and devoted at least fifty per cent of the state's resources into providing trials for tens of thousands of anti-Soviet enemies of the people.  And left the non-communist Polish intellectuals up to their usual habits of undermining socialism, plotting against Russia and writing ever more elaborate treatises on why the Jews are a poison in the noble soul of the Polish people.

They were not enemys of their own people.