Author Topic: It starts at home...  (Read 8725 times)

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BT

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2008, 03:01:54 AM »
Quote
If this is indeed a disabled vet's home, why doesn't the neighborhood get together and paint it for him/her? After all, it IS the Season of Giving!

That has been offered many times. and the offer has been turned down.

The phrase poor but proud comes to mind. Plus Bill liked to piss people off. Bill passed away last year. We kept his yard up while the property was in probate. The matriarch of the family is seriously ill and the remaining siblings have not mentioned any plans for the property, and as stated their is no law saying the house needs to be painted.



Brassmask

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2008, 11:13:10 AM »
Could you find enough likeminded persons to make this really happen?

People don't really need Barn raisins , quiltin bees , corn shuckins and the like anymore , but the social occasion went away when the chore went away.

There are a lot of little old ladies that arn't rakeing their leaves because they can't , but they might bake some cookies for the party that followed a neighborhood rakein.

I toy with that idea sometimes.  The thing that I can't figure out is how to go to the door and ask if they want their yard raked for free.  If someone did that to me, I'd immediately be suspicious of that person.  Not only that, what if that person is offended by the offer?

In the spring, I'm going to spend more time talking to the people I don't know on my street, maybe it will grow from there.

Plane

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2008, 12:20:21 AM »
Could you find enough likeminded persons to make this really happen?

People don't really need Barn raisins , quiltin bees , corn shuckins and the like anymore , but the social occasion went away when the chore went away.

There are a lot of little old ladies that arn't rakeing their leaves because they can't , but they might bake some cookies for the party that followed a neighborhood rakein.

I toy with that idea sometimes.  The thing that I can't figure out is how to go to the door and ask if they want their yard raked for free.  If someone did that to me, I'd immediately be suspicious of that person.  Not only that, what if that person is offended by the offer?

In the spring, I'm going to spend more time talking to the people I don't know on my street, maybe it will grow from there.


Every now and then you find a church that feilds a ministry like this , but modern neighborhoods are full of strangers.

Brassmask

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2008, 11:24:04 AM »

Every now and then you find a church that feilds a ministry like this , but modern neighborhoods are full of strangers.

Well, you know how me and churches mix but there is a place about a block from me called "Service Over Self".  They're basically a churchy kind of thing (a ministry, I guess you could say) that brings in kids from schools and churches (and other people, I assume) and they go into poor neighborhoods to do repairs for people and yard work and the like.

http://www.sosmemphis.org/

Pretty churchy.

sirs

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2008, 11:27:47 AM »
You mean they CHOSE to do such?  It wasn't mandated by any governmental body or coerced thru taxation??  *gasp*   And here I thought that's the only way anything ever gets done


















 ;) 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2008, 12:15:24 PM »
You mean they CHOSE to do such?  It wasn't mandated by any governmental body or coerced thru taxation??  *gasp*   And here I thought that's the only way anything ever gets done
 ;) 

Yeah, that's great and all, but check this out.

I found this site that said that SOS's income was a little over 3 mil from 2003 to 2006.  In 2008, they did repairs on something like 34 houses.  I didn't find any numbers on houses repaired from '03 to 06 but let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they did repairs on as many or more.  Let's say in those years, they did repairs on 40 houses per year.

So, in 4 years at 40 houses a year, that's a 160 houses.  Their total net assets for those four years was 12.7 million (there abouts). 

Now, what they did with that 12.7 mill was they had a bunch of kids come from all over the country to their camps.  They sang songs, ate, prayed, worked on houses, listened to sermons and showered.  (Their site mentions showering a LOT for some reason.)  That money came from a small group of people comparatively to the US taxpayer rolls.

Now, you may disagree, but if the government budgeted 12.7 mill to a team of say 20 people who were home repair types who just needed a job, I daresay they would have gotten a lot more houses fixed up, I bet.

If you pay 20 people $20 an hour for four years, that's just shy of 4 mill.  That means my secular, government-paid group would have over 8 million to spend on repair cost on houses.  And these 20 people wouldn't be dicking around with spouting gods' glory and spilling paint and cutting boards twice 'cause Susie got scared by the table saw.

Not to mention, they wouldn't be figuring in the cost of housing my 20 people or worrying about two of them sneaking off and kissing behind the shed.

I mean, according to SOS's own info, the spent only 26% of their budget on "construction".  I mean, expanding that out theoretically, 26% of 12.7 mill is 3.3 mill.  With my secular, government-funded 20 people, I more than double the amount spent on construction ergo, in four years, my group would have done repairs on 320 houses in that same timeframe.

What's more important?  Helping people maintain their neighborhood and giving people their dignity when they thought all hope was lost or spending 12.7 mill on a gods' glory and repairing half as many houses?

I'm being a little too snide here and apologies for that, old habits die hard.  Obviously, the 12.7 mill was spent by donors on what they thought was important and they got to make their own choices and some kids got some great stuff to put on their resume's and all the parents of the kids should feel proud.

But, imagine what a complete "army" of construction workers could do if they were funded by the government like the Armed Forces are.

sirs

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2008, 12:39:37 PM »
And yet again, Brass brushes right over those that choose to do good works with their time & $ vs mandating it to happen by way of taxation....with all the added layers of bureacracy, mismanagement, and waste.  Got to love the consistency though
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2008, 01:11:56 PM »
Your government program would eat a minimum of 50% of every dollar allocated for administrative overhead.

You have congressional staff, executive branch staff at the federal level, then state or county equivalents, then city level counterparts all putting their fingers in the pie before a single nail is driven.


Habitat for Humanity is probably a better example of service over self than your sos ministry and even they have overhead.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2008, 03:31:28 PM »
Your government program would eat a minimum of 50% of every dollar allocated for administrative overhead.
====================================

If this were actually true, then UPS would be making a huge profit, or would be seling their delivery service for less than the Post Office. The Army is also a huge bureaucracy, but Blackwater still charges a lot more than the volunteer army costs.

It's not true: the Post Office pays their employees better than UPS of FedEx, and gives better pensions and healthcare and STILL charges about the same.

Volunteering is great: the only problem is that the number of volunteers is fewer than the need for them.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2008, 03:38:31 PM »
But, imagine what a complete "army" of construction workers could do if they were funded by the government like the Armed Forces are.


http://www.navy.mil/navydata/personnel/seabees/seabee1.html

http://www.usace.army.mil/

http://www.army.mod.uk/royalengineers/

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/Janfeb96/ms967.htm


I am fmilliar with SeaBee, Primebeef ,bare base, Redhorse,and Army Engineers.

These guys can build a lot of amazeing things , in unlikely places and astonishingly fast.

But when were they ever accused of being cost effective?

Plane

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2008, 03:41:56 PM »
You mean they CHOSE to do such?  It wasn't mandated by any governmental body or coerced thru taxation??  *gasp*   And here I thought that's the only way anything ever gets done
 ;) 

Yeah, that's great and all, but check this out.

I found this site that said that SOS's income was a little over 3 mil from 2003 to 2006.  In 2008, they did repairs on something like 34 houses.  I didn't find any numbers on houses repaired from '03 to 06 but let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they did repairs on as many or more.  Let's say in those years, they did repairs on 40 houses per year.

So, in 4 years at 40 houses a year, that's a 160 houses.  Their total net assets for those four years was 12.7 million (there abouts). 

Now, what they did with that 12.7 mill was they had a bunch of kids come from all over the country to their camps.  They sang songs, ate, prayed, worked on houses, listened to sermons and showered.  (Their site mentions showering a LOT for some reason.)  That money came from a small group of people comparatively to the US taxpayer rolls.

Now, you may disagree, but if the government budgeted 12.7 mill to a team of say 20 people who were home repair types who just needed a job, I daresay they would have gotten a lot more houses fixed up, I bet.

If you pay 20 people $20 an hour for four years, that's just shy of 4 mill.  That means my secular, government-paid group would have over 8 million to spend on repair cost on houses.  And these 20 people wouldn't be dicking around with spouting gods' glory and spilling paint and cutting boards twice 'cause Susie got scared by the table saw.

Not to mention, they wouldn't be figuring in the cost of housing my 20 people or worrying about two of them sneaking off and kissing behind the shed.

I mean, according to SOS's own info, the spent only 26% of their budget on "construction".  I mean, expanding that out theoretically, 26% of 12.7 mill is 3.3 mill.  With my secular, government-funded 20 people, I more than double the amount spent on construction ergo, in four years, my group would have done repairs on 320 houses in that same timeframe.

What's more important?  Helping people maintain their neighborhood and giving people their dignity when they thought all hope was lost or spending 12.7 mill on a gods' glory and repairing half as many houses?

I'm being a little too snide here and apologies for that, old habits die hard.  Obviously, the 12.7 mill was spent by donors on what they thought was important and they got to make their own choices and some kids got some great stuff to put on their resume's and all the parents of the kids should feel proud.

But, imagine what a complete "army" of construction workers could do if they were funded by the government like the Armed Forces are.

88 K per house?  Is this a lot of work or basic repair?
If the 88K produced extensive remodeling , then the cost is reasonable , if not then hosting and training the kids might be the real point of the program.

hnumpah

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2008, 10:51:42 AM »
Amish homeowners: Religion trumps building codes
By TODD RICHMOND, Associated Press Writer

TOWN OF FRANKLIN, Wis. ? Daniel Borntreger's home looks like hundreds of other Wisconsin farmhouses: two-story A-frame, porch, clothes on the line.

But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines. Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish tradition ? but without a building permit.

His case is among at least 18 legal actions brought against Amish residents in Wisconsin and New York in the past year and a half for building without proper permits, according to court records, attorneys and advocates for the Amish.

The cases have sparked local debates about where religion ends and government begins. Amish advocates ? the Amish religion precludes them from defending themselves physically or legally ? argue the Amish belief that they must live apart from the world trumps local regulations.

"The permit itself might not be so bad, but to change your lifestyle to have to get one, that's against our convictions," Borntreger said as he sat in his kitchen with his wife, Ruth.

But local authorities say the Amish must obey the law.

"They just go ahead and don't listen to any of the laws that are affecting anybody else. It's quite a problem when you got people next door required to get permits and the Amish don't have to get them," said Gary Olson, a county supervisor in central Wisconsin's Jackson County, where Borntreger lives.

The Amish emigrated from central Europe to Pennsylvania in the early 1700s. Also known as the "Plain People," the Amish believe they must live a simple, nonviolent life. Many reject electricity, indoor plumbing and cars.

In Pennsylvania, home to a large Amish population, more liberal-leaning congregations have lobbied successfully for exemptions in the state building code, including permission to forego electricity and quality-graded lumber, said Frank Howe, chairman of the board of supervisors in Leacok township in Lancaster County.

Officials try to keep the Amish informed about what they can and can't do, and most conform, Howe said. He didn't believe his board had ever taken an Amish resident to court over building violations.

"You try to work with both sides," Howe said. "(We tell them) this is what we need you to do so everyone can go home and relax."

The Amish population has nearly doubled in the U.S. over the last 15 years, growing to 227,000 this year, according to estimates from Elizabethtown College's Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies. As the Amish look for new farmland, conservative congregations have migrated into states that haven't seen them before, said Karen Johnson-Weiner, an Amish expert at the State University of New York at Potsdam.

That sets up conflict between building officials with little experience dealing with their beliefs and conservative Amish who aren't familiar with the codes or don't want to compromise, Johnson-Weiner said.

Municipal attorneys in Hammond, a town of about 300 people in upstate New York, cited Joseph Swartzentruber and Henry Mast in August for building houses without a permit. That case is pending. Hammond attorney Fred Paddock declined to comment.

In Morristown, a town of about 450 people just north of Hammond, town attorney Andrew Silver has brought 13 actions against the Amish for not abiding by building codes. They're pending, too.

Silver declined comment except to say the town is treating the Amish as it would any homeowner who violates building codes.

In Wisconsin, authorities in Black River Falls, a city of 3,600 people about 130 miles northwest of Madison, have filed at least four cases against area Amish involving permit violations.

One action ended in April when a judge fined Samuel S. Stoltzfus $9,450 for building a house and driveway without permits. In July the same judge levied a $10,600 fine against Daniel Borntreger. Another pending action accuses Samuel F. Stolzfus of building two houses without permits.

Stoltzfus believed signing a permit would amount to lying because he wouldn't follow parts of the code that violate his religion, said Robert Greene, an attorney with the National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom, which has intervened in his case.

Custom-built homes are allowed in Wisconsin as long as the plans meet code standards, but apparently the Amish don't understand that, said Paul Millis, the attorney suing the Amish in Jackson County. The Town of Albion, where Samuel F. Stolzfus lives, waived a requirement that permits be signed so the Amish could avoid violating their religious beliefs, but they still won't comply, he said.

Attorneys acting on behalf of the Amish argue they have a constitutional right to religious freedom. They don't have to conform to building regulations that require them to use architectural drawings, smoke detectors, quality-graded lumber and inspections, Steve Ballan, an assistant public defender assigned to the Amish in Morristown wrote in court documents.

"They should be allowed to practice their religion and their religious traditions without interference from the government," he said in an interview.

The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, which has taken up the Amish's cause in Hammond, plans to file a federal lawsuit in New York in the next few weeks arguing that.

The Amish advocates have a strong argument, said University of Michigan law professor Douglas Laycock.

The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down, he said.

"People aren't getting hurt," he said.
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The_Professor

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2008, 11:01:12 AM »
Typical strong-armed Government tactics. Seems you can't mind your own biz without the Government intruding.
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hnumpah

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2008, 04:09:26 PM »
Which is why Mormons are limited to one wife. Religion didn't seem to trump that law, why should it trump this one?
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The_Professor

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Re: It starts at home...
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2008, 08:50:48 PM »
Well, I am NOT LDS, but why should they be limited to one wife if their religion says otherwise?

Why Ruby Ridge? Gimme a break here.

Why the ludicrous assault on Korash & Co?

Why?
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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D