The "Religion of Peace" strikes it's own.

[Xavier_Onassis]

You may be destined to fee sorry as someone who accidentally flicked a booger at the Pope.

[sirs]

You may be destined to fee sorry as someone who accidentally flicked a booger at the Pope.

 

lol.....whatever that's supposed to mean

[Xavier_Onassis]

Do you lack the imagination to interpret  this?

An explanation of this would be like explaining a knock knock joke.
You will have to try harder.

[sirs]

Do you lack the imagination to interpret  this?

I see....so I'm supposed to imagine what you were thinking.  There's not a medication on the planet that could accomplish that.  The only thing lacking in the last response of yours was some asemblence of sense.  Pretty much anything I'd come up with that wasn't some demeaning reference to myself, would be immediately cast off as wrong.  So, why would I want to play that deflection game

Suffice to say, the deeper you dig your attempts at degrading my faith, the more sorry I feel for you.  Which brings up quite the hypocrtical irony once again, as you accuse me of trying to ram my faith down your throat, here you are trying to ram your non-faith down mine.  Quite the double standard badge you live under

[Plane]

You assume that Paul could see into the future, that he could foresee that he would die in his attempts.  ,,,,,,

This is not an assumption on my part, he wrote of the fate he expected.

Your argument includes the much less likely assumption, that Paul left the established party in power, and joined the upstarts hoping to succeed thereby,

Paul was a very rational and logical sort, a fact hidden from anyone that feels it necessary to reject the rationality of anything Godly.

[Xavier_Onassis]

AS I said, Paul thought he would be rewarded in the afterlife.
And no matter what you say about what he expected, he was not clairvoyant.
Soldiers write about dying in battle all the time. Then they live to be 90. What one expects is just that. Martyrdom has always been a big deal in Middle Eastern religions, so contemplating martyrdom is a plus, as it puts foreth the thought, "I am willing to DIE for my religion."

Paul was quite rational: he was willing to throw all the old Jewish dietary laws into the garbage in order to win more converts among the pagans.

When the Church proclaimed that the wine and the communion cookie actually turned into the physical blood and flesh of the human Jesus, then that made Christianity extremely trayf (ie, non kosher), since humans are not kosher, cannibalism is an unspeakable sin, and consuming blood is also unclean.

[Plane]

AS I said, Paul thought he would be rewarded in the afterlife.

Certainly, but that is the expectation of every Christian. This expectation does not explain any motivation to change the rules. Aftrelife rewards depend on God, not churches. 

And no matter what you say about what he expected, he was not clairvoyant.

Whether he was a prophet or just a good prognosticator, he was accurate.


His motive could not have been self aggrandizement.

[Xavier_Onassis]

No of course his motives were not aggrandizement.
And yet he has hundreds of churches named after him, doesn't he?

Paul's objective was clearly to convert as many people as possible. Hence he ditched the old Jewish commandments, kosher laws and all that so that he could recruit pagans to Christianity.

Note this: Jesus said ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Of course, Paul may never have heard this quote, as most of what he knew about Jesus was passed down orally as what can only be called hearsay.

Paul abolished the laws, there is no denying that.
Jesus said that he came to fulfill the laws, there is no denying that, either.

How can you fulfill a law by abolishing it?

Suppose, for example that the Supreme Court ruled that your beloved Second Amendment was invalid, and the court ruled that by abolishing it, they were fulfilling it?

Would you not find fault with that?

[Plane]

  I do quibble with your very very narrow interpretation of a pair of carefully chosen quotes.

   Jesus did not abolish the Law and neither did Paul.

   When Jesus's disciples were upbraided for harvesting food on Sabbath, Jesus talked the problem out . When Jesus was asked to participate in an enforcement action against an adulterous woman, he not only did not , he talked a whole mob out of it.

    So you pick one of his statements out of context to make a Pharisee of him?

   Paul did not change the definition of a Jew nor change the law for Jews, he did settle the controversy of whether a Person must become a Jew first to become a Christian.
    There were churches in which converts were being circumcised and taught the dietary law etc, on their way to being Christians, Paul called this off, after having a vision about it. So this was not even his own idea.

     The upshot being that a person can become a Christian without becoming also a Jew.

   Jesus and Paul speak reams of the law, isolating a few comments out of context is just a means of misquoting, the law is what it always was , a way to point to perfection.

     Jesus plainly does state in several ways that there is not salvation in Law, the debt of sin is unavoidable without divine forgiveness.
     I do not see Paul in disagreement .

[Plane]

Suppose, for example that the Supreme Court ruled that your beloved Second Amendment was invalid, and the court ruled that by abolishing it, they were fulfilling it?

Would you not find fault with that?

People do this all the time .

What they want is nothing like what the second amendment provides, so they concentrate on the preposition " A well regulated milita..." and try to say that the phrase "the right of the people shall not be abridged " therefore means nothing.

    As if the second amendment was written to ensure that the Army would not be disarmed.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Yeah right. After having a "vision". Oh, please.   Homey don't do "visions".

This "vision" stuff does not fly any more.  The last major American leader that had visions was  Elijah Muhammad. He had visions of space aliens piloting a giant wheel (like the one Ezekiel saw in a "vision") coming to spirit all the True believers away and wreaking havoc on all the White devils.

I think Louis Farrakhan said he had a minor vision in which he spoke with Elijah, but I don't think even a phony like Farrakhan would dare to have a major"vision".  He'd get laughed out of the Peanut Gallery.

As Church Lady would say, "How Con VEEEN ient."

The fact remains Jesus said one thing, Paul said another that entirely contradicted him. Jesus at no point in the Bible said that he had come to minister to anyone except Jews. In the context of the times, all this occurred after the conquest by Alexander a couple of centuries before Jesus appeared, and many Jews had given up the prudish habits of the Jews and had become Hellenized. This was particularly true of the upper classes. There was Messiah after Messiah running about, John the Baptist and Jesus were two traditionalists who wanted to return to the old ways among many. After Jesus there were also Messiahs, the most successful being Shimon bar Kockhba, who actually rallied the Jews so well they drove the Romans out of the country. 

The Messiah, by the way, like the Muslim Makhdi, is not described in the Bible (or the Koran) as a divine being, just a super special prophetic leader and perhaps a second King David type. The Jews (well, some of them) are waiting for a Messiah, but not a one of them thinks the Messiah is going to be divine.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The federal government of the US at the time that the Second Amendment was written was an extremely weak entity, and could not have disarmed the population even if it wanted to. Of course, most of the population was rural and they were very spread out, and there were brigands, highwaymen ESCAPED SLAVES and Indians against whom neither the federal government nor the  state governments could defend them. And the militias (which were concentrated in places where there were slaves and malcontent Indians) were the defense or the community.

[Plane]

The federal government of the US at the time that the Second Amendment was written was an extremely weak entity, and could not have disarmed the population even if it wanted to.

This should not change.

[Plane]

Yeah right. After having a "vision". Oh, please.   Homey don't do "visions".

I know you are not accepting any supernatural explanations , but Jesus and Paul explained themselves in supernatural terms quite a bit .

I think your attitude twards the supernatural explains your acceptance of very unlikely sounding theory's of events that are pretty simple to people that accept the involvement of God.

The fact remains Jesus said one thing, Paul said another that entirely contradicted him. Jesus at no point in the Bible said that he had come to minister to anyone except Jews.

I think this is two errors.

  In the context of the times, all this occurred after the conquest by Alexander a couple of centuries before Jesus appeared, and many Jews had given up the prudish habits of the Jews and had become Hellenized. This was particularly true of the upper classes. There was Messiah after Messiah running about, John the Baptist and Jesus were two traditionalists who wanted to return to the old ways among many.

That does not sound like either of them.

. After Jesus there were also Messiahs, the most successful being Shimon bar Kockhba, who actually rallied the Jews so well they drove the Romans out of the country. 

The Messiah, by the way, like the Muslim Makhdi, is not described in the Bible (or the Koran) as a divine being, just a super special prophetic leader and perhaps a second King David type. The Jews (well, some of them) are waiting for a Messiah, but not a one of them thinks the Messiah is going to be divine.

Surprised were they?

[Plane]

Jesus urges respect for the law.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205&version=NIV

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

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Jesus urges that the Law not be respected more than doing the right thing .
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012&version=NIV

 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”


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Jesus reads the riot act to teachers of the law.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023&version=NIV

Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.