The Hermanator telling it like it is!

[Xavier_Onassis]

The Lumpenproletarians who believe in gasbag crackpot blowhards like Cain are at least as ignorant as those maoist students waving their Little Red Books.

[Kramer]

The Lumpenproletarians who believe in gasbag crackpot blowhards like Cain are at least as ignorant as those maoist students waving their Little Red Books.

At least Cain isn't a former Cocaine addict like Obama. Plus he mother wasn't a slut either.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Cain could be  more dangerous to this country than Obama ever could be, but he is a flash in the pan and will sink into the ooze of oblivion twice as fast as Ross Perot. Twenty years ago, they were giving Perot a possibility of being president. Now people don;t know if he is still alive.

Watch Cain vanish even faster.

[sirs]

I suppose we could tweek that to make it even that more accurate...

The Lumpenproletarians who believe in gasbag crackpot blowhards like Obama are at least as ignorant as those maoist students waving their Little Red Commie Books.

And nothing could be more dangerous to this country than a radical Socialist running it.  So sad that not only does he not have a majority of the electorate supporting his efforts, but apparently no longer has the support of even a Senate Majority of Democrats

[Michael Tee]

<<How would you convince anything like the brightest that Comunism actually works?>>

Easy.  I'd send 'em to China.

    << A century of earnest experiment produced a lot more misery and death than real Communism.>>

Well, a lot of that was capitalism at its finest.  WWI, for example, a war between capitalist powers for greed and empire.  WWII, starting with the anti-communist Hitler, bankrolled by the capitalists of the world to defeat communism in Germany, who then invaded the USSR, causing tens of millions of innocent deaths.   No, plane, it was not "earnest experiment" but out-of-control capitalism that caused - - and is still causing (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) - - most if not all of the carnage of this century and the last.

     << I think it firmly established that Communism is only approximated under severe tyrany and has no potential for realisation of its grand promise.>>

What's "firmly established" is that the Soviet Union has broken apart.   What's not "firmly established" is the how and why of that break-up, the role of capitalism subversion and deceit in that break-up, the role of opportunism, careerism and greed, etc.  We don't know WHY the USSR broke up.  Similarly we don't know to what extent the quasi-capitalist features of today's China are permanent or to what extent they will be expanded or to what degree communist principles still underlie the current system there.

What else is now "firmly established" is the failure of capitalism, not only in the U.S.A. but in Europe as well, the deadly rapacity of its thirst for cheap raw materials in the Third World and the counterproductivity of its imperialism.  For the U.S.A., the worst is still to come.  As bad as the failure of capitalism appears now, in five years from now, you'll see just how bad it really is.

      <<Or do we need another century of earnest experiment?>>

It seems pretty obvious to most Americans at this point in time that you do need to try something new.

[Plane]

  Europe is a spectrum of socialism, with Greeks being very socialist and Germans being quite capitalist.

    The level of socialism in a nation corresponds directly with the amount thay need to be rescued by the Germans.

     What happened to the USSR is no mystery either, they owed more loans to Germany than they could repay with a centurys production, when they couldn't pay the intrest anymore why should Germany continue to make loans?

[Michael Tee]

<<The level of socialism in a nation corresponds directly with the amount thay need to be rescued by the Germans.>>

That is a ridiculous oversimplification.  Ireland was one of the LEAST socialist nations in the EU, with one of the lowest, if not the lowest, rates of corporate tax in the EU, and its economy also needed an international rescue.  China's "level of socialism" I would say is pretty high, so according to your theory, the Germans will have to bail it out anytime now.

    << What happened to the USSR is no mystery either, they owed more loans to Germany than they could repay with a centurys production, when they couldn't pay the intrest anymore why should Germany continue to make loans?>>

That is also an oversimplification, leaving out a lot of unanswered questions.  Up until 1989 or thereabouts, they owned and occupied almost half of Germany, then they let it all go and they wind up INDEBTED to it so deep that they can't pay the fucking interest on the loan?  How in the hell did this happen?  The damage that Germany caused to the U.S.S.R. couldn't be repaid in a hundred years.   Germany and its fascist allies (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, et al.) were responsible for the damage AND lost the war.  They were all ocuupied by the U.S.S.R. and wouldn't have repaid their war obligations when suddenly the U.S.S.R. pulls out?  This is total fucking bullshit, plane, there is obviously more to the story than meets the eye.

One of the pieces to the puzzle lies in something I read a while back but did not pursue - - that the U.S. had promised the U.S.S.R. that if it pulled out of Eastern Europe, no military alliances would be formed between the U.S.A. and the former People's Republics.  This obviously would have been a lie because now some of them are NATO members, the U.S.A. has "secret" bases in Bulgaria and Romania, and Russia is being surrounded by U.S. bases.  The U.S.A. was obviously prepared to lie to get the Russians out of Eastern Europe.  What else were they prepared to do?  I would guess at a minimum, bribery and subversion, their usual first resort.  This is why I say I do not really know the real reason behind the collapse of the USSR.  My gut feeling is that the USA had a lot more to do with this than is commonly known.

[Plane]

  There is much more to it than will ever meet your eye , because you are not looking.
   West Germany made massive loans to East Germany and to the USSR from the middle Seventys till the last years before collapse.

     Communism never kept up with its boastfullness with anything like effectiveness , eficency and production.

      Why is running half the world not enough?
      The greatest famines of all human history were in communist times and places.

      Giving to each according to his need was never anything but poetry.

[Christians4LessGvt]

<<How would you convince anything like the brightest that Comunism actually works?>>
Easy.  I'd send 'em to China.   

Oh really?

Rated at 91st in the world?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

Thats something to be proud of after thousands of years? Ha!

Many Chinese earn 80 cents an hour
Others may earn $200 a month.
Millions of Chinese earn $1500 a year.

And that's the shining example of success?

Pitiful!

[Michael Tee]

China has existed for thousands of years, it is true.  COMMUNIST China has existed only since 1948.  In the mere 63 years that Communist China has existed, they have progressed further and faster than any other country has progressed in the history of the world to date.  For that, only communism can take the credit.

You quoted figures, figures which are mostly meaningless - - you quoted earnings with no reference whatsoever to what those earnings could buy.  Using the same logic, I could quote the earnings of Germans during the inflationary period of the Weimar Republic to prove that they were the wealthiest people in the history of the world - - a mailman was earning millions of marks every day - - but it cost millions just to buy a loaf if bread.  They were impoverished, not rich.  But one-sided looks at one-sided statistics just give a one-dimensional meaningless view of the achievements of the Communist Revolution.

Everything has to go back to 1948 to get a measure of their achievements - - by that yardstick NOBODY has ever made such progress.

By any and every measure, Chinese today are farther ahead of where they were 63 years ago than any other people on earth.  Infant mortality declining, literacy up, famine (which had plagued China for four thousand years) abolished, public health up, roads, railways, manufacturing, up.  There's no point in listing all of the progress they made.  The overall stats, GDP, increase rate in GDP, exports, trade balances, military power, weaponry, electronics, regional and even global influence, all up, up and up.

Your stats are meaningless.  Yes, I'd take that person to China - - you draw your own conclusions from your meaningless stats, and others with eyes to see will know at once what communism has accomplished for China.

And then I'd take the same guy back for a tour of the USA - - the millionaires homes and the homeless in the streets, the foreclosures, the unemployment, the deaths from lack of health insurance, the corporations earning billions while student loan balances cripple graduates who have no way of repaying them.  I'd bring the guy here after he's seen the triumphs of communism so that he can see the other side of the coin - - the failure of capitalism.

[Plane]

  Don't forget the period between 59 and 63 when the Chineese were less prosperous than during the Japaneese occupation.

    Most of the progress you are bragging about didn't happen while Mao was alive.

     China today has a lot of millionaires, it will not be long before there are more Chineese millionaires than American.

      The key of course was to totally drop the useless and counterproductive parts of Communism like insisting on equality of economic result .

      China has poor people still , but thanks to abandoning the tenants of Marx they are not starving as much as they used to.

       Call it Communism if you must , what makes it a success is what communism isn't.

[Michael Tee]

 <<Don't forget the period between 59 and 63 when the Chineese were less prosperous than during the Japaneese occupation.>>

The progress we see today is the final result of all the years of communism, mistakes and misfortunes factored in. What system on earth doesn't have temporary set-backs, misfortunes, mistakes?  But only ONE came out ahead.  If my horse wins a race, he wins a race - - no point saying, "don't forget the point between the 2nd and 3rd quarter-mile when he was behind three other horses."

    <<Most of the progress you are bragging about didn't happen while Mao was alive.>>

Mao played his role and then made way for other good Communists to play theirs.  Mao wasn't the only Communist, you know.  It's like saying that much of the progress of the Jewish people didn't happen when Moses was alive.  It's more of a "do what you can and then pass on the baton."  I love Chairman Mao and I honour him for his great role in the war and the Revolution, but like everyone he made mistakes too; in the fire of war and Revolution he emerged victorious, one hell of an accomplishment, and without which none of the later triumphs could have followed.   Many people participated, but the guiding line in all their actions was, and remains today, the fundamental principles of Marxist-Leninist thought, adapted wisely to changing circumstances.

    << China today has a lot of millionaires, it will not be long before there are more Chineese millionaires than American.>>

I think the time will come for them to eliminate either the millionaires or their fortunes to prevent them from buying up the government as happened unfortunately in the USA.  And I think they're in a much better position to do that than the US is today, because the Party still exercises the dictatorship of the proletariat, whereas the rich in the US have bought up not only the two political parties but also the judiciary and the MSM.  The US will never shake them off, China will do so when it needs to do so.  Even Russia has taken on its oligarchs - - one by one, they are landing in jail and their fortunes, to the extent that the Russian government can get their hands on them, are being taken back in the name of the people.

      <<The key of course was to totally drop the useless and counterproductive parts of Communism like insisting on equality of economic result .>>

While retaining a tight control over the amount of the inequality of result AND maintaining the principle of state ownership of the means of production.

China faces future problems but so does the USA.  But China is still trending up, and the USA is still trending down.

      <<China has poor people still , but thanks to abandoning the tenants of Marx they are not starving as much as they used to.>>

". . . not starving as much as they used to."  or "they eat a helluva lot better than they used to."  What is this comment but a variation on the glass is half empty or the glass is half full?  However you want to put it, the difference between China now and China in 1948 is like night and day, and communism is what made the difference possible.  The progress made by China between 1948 and now outstrips any progress made by any other country on earth in the same period.  China sooner than you think will outstrip the US military in both technology and firepower and the US can't do a God-damn thing about it.  It's just something that is going to happen and something that the US is just going to have to suck up.  And it's all due to the interplay of two factors: you are going down because capitalism has failed and China is going up because communism has succeeded.

      << Call it Communism if you must , what makes it a success is what communism isn't.>>

Communism is the dictatorship of the proletariat through its vanguard the Communist Party, as well as state ownership of the means of production.  The means by which China has won its success is no more an abandonment of communism than Lenin's adoption of the NEP was in the 1920s, or Fidel's temporary adoption of the "mercados libres" in the 1980s.  One of the strengths of communism is its adaptability and willingness to experiment with new systems some of which work and some of which don't.  The US, since the rich bought out both political parties, was even afraid to experiment with health-care systems, let alone systems of production and distribution.  You're ossified and you're fucked, both.

[Plane]

   Everything Mao did was a mistake from the point of view of those who had to starve to death during his learning period.

    Did you miss that I mentioned that the Chineese had greater prosperity under Japaneese occupation than under Chairman Mao for practicly two decades?

     Calling Mao a success under any terms than the Aggrandisement of Mao himself is rediculous.

      When the Chineese tire of their Millionaires we will welcome them and the Chineese can return to starving , but covering up the starvation.

       By the Way, if you ever need a liver , you can probly buy the best in China.

[Michael Tee]

  <<Everything Mao did was a mistake from the point of view of those who had to starve to death during his learning period.>>

Mao's greatest acccomplishment was leading the Revolution to victory and for the first time in centuries freeing China from foreigners and their puppets.  Every success that followed was built upon that primary liberation.

    <<Did you miss that I mentioned that the Chineese had greater prosperity under Japaneese occupation than under Chairman Mao for practicly two decades?>>

It's all relative and I don't trust those figures either.  What kind of prosperity is it when some fucking Jap can throw a Chinese baby up in the air and catch him on the point of a bayonet?  Anyone who can refer to "prosperity" under the Japanese occupation is just sick.
   
<< Calling Mao a success under any terms than the Aggrandisement of Mao himself is rediculous.>>

I just called him a success under the terms of liberating China from foreign control and establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat in China, the fundamental conditions for the current rise of that country, and there is absolutely nothing ridiculous about it.

      <<When the Chineese tire of their Millionaires we will welcome them and the Chineese can return to starving , but covering up the starvation.>>

You're not the only one who can make ridiculous predictions, plane.  When the second American revolution breaks out, we here in Canada will NOT take in the refugees, since we'll know them for the parasitic blood-sucking crypto-fascists that they are.

       <<By the Way, if you ever need a liver , you can probly buy the best in China.>>

What happened, Israel ran out of Palestinians?

[Plane]

  <<Everything Mao did was a mistake from the point of view of those who had to starve to death during his learning period.>>

Mao's greatest acccomplishment was leading the Revolution to victory and for the first time in centuries freeing China from foreigners and their puppets.  Every success that followed was built upon that primary liberation.

This was equally true of Hitler untill 1944.

    <<Did you miss that I mentioned that the Chineese had greater prosperity under Japaneese occupation than under Chairman Mao for practicly two decades?>>

It's all relative and I don't trust those figures either.  What kind of prosperity is it when some fucking Jap can throw a Chinese baby up in the air and catch him on the point of a bayonet?  Anyone who can refer to "prosperity" under the Japanese occupation is just sick.
   

For all that this is true and perfectly tipical of the Japaneese occupation , they were not as harsh on the people as Mao. How are you not sick? Mao established strong food exports simultainious with the greatest famine of all human history, his greatest skill seems to have been coercion and covering the truth.
.

<< Calling Mao a success under any terms than the Aggrandisement of Mao himself is rediculous.>>

I just called him a success under the terms of liberating China from foreign control and establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat in China, the fundamental conditions for the current rise of that country, and there is absolutely nothing ridiculous about it.

  Mao did for Tibet what Tojo did for the Philipines. What Mao did for China is akin to what Tojo did for China but on a much larger scale. What is the advantage of his being Chineese himself? Does being Chineese give license to kill Chineese?  Chinas progress since Maos death is inspirational of wonder, if Mao had died a

      <<When the Chineese tire of their Millionaires we will welcome them and the Chineese can return to starving , but covering up the starvation.>>

You're not the only one who can make ridiculous predictions, plane.  When the second American revolution breaks out, we here in Canada will NOT take in the refugees, since we'll know them for the parasitic blood-sucking crypto-fascists that they are..

You must mean a third revolution, the second went badly for my people in spite of Canadian assistance. Thanks anyway. If the OWS croud attempts rebellion they will discover that they do not amount to 1% and that very few of us think that class warfare is a good idea. China needs its millioniares , they  are a part of the end of famine. For who is it unfortunate,, that they are millionaires in US dollars?

       <<By the Way, if you ever need a liver , you can probly buy the best in China.>>

What happened, Israel ran out of Palestinians?

I didn't even know that Isreal was using capitol punishment. If they are, they will have to work hard to match China which leads the world in this catagory too.  Is the Isreali policy on organ harvest and sale at auction as progressive as is Chinas?
     Yes ,there is some capitolism that even I don't like.