DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Kramer on October 12, 2011, 11:35:17 PM
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ATLANTA (AP) — If there's a policy star in the Republican presidential primary it may be Herman Cain's 9-9-9 tax overhaul plan.
It has helped fuel the Georgia businessman's sudden surge in the GOP race. But behind the catchy slogan is a reality: Experts say it will raise taxes on some Americans.
"The 9-9-9 plan that I have proposed is simple, transparent, efficient, fair and neutral," Cain, the former Godfather's Pizza chief executive, declared at Tuesday night's Republican presidential debate in New Hampshire, where his newfound higher status in the Republican primary race was on full display
Better-known Republicans seeking the White House relentlessly assailed both Cain and the centerpiece of his unlikely presidential bid, mocking it as simplistic and politically unworkable.
"I thought it was the price of a pizza when I first heard about it," joked former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman.
Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann dismissed it as a jobs plan, not a tax plan.
"When you take the 9-9-9 plan and turn it upside down, I think the devil's in the details," she quipped.
Still, 9-9-9 has placed the charismatic Cain in the thick of the primary battle. Now the trick will be staying there. On Wednesday, Cain pledged to ramp up his ground game in the early primary states of New Hampshire and Iowa, an effort to capitalize on his momentum.
The plan would scrap the current tax code and replace it with a 9 percent tax on personal income and corporations as well as a new 9 percent national sales tax.
Cain argues the 9-9-9 proposal would expand the tax base so more Americans are contributing to government coffers while at the same time getting government out of the business of picking winners and losers through the tax code.
The final phase of Cain's plan would move to a so-called fair tax, eliminating the income and corporate income taxes in favor of a national sales tax.
"It's bold," Jeanne Seaver, co-founder of the Savannah, Ga., tea party. "I like that you know where you stand with his plan."
But while some are swayed by the plan's simplicity — it can fit on a bumper sticker compared with Mitt Romney's 160-page plan — critics on the left say it would place a greater tax burden on middle- and low-income Americans by stripping away deductions that currently complicate the federal tax code.
Most low-income families currently pay less than 9 percent of their income in federal taxes. Nearly half of all U.S. households — mostly low-and middle-income families — pay no federal income taxes, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.
Roberton Williams, senior fellow at the nonpartisan Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, said under Cain's plan taxes would rise on the elderly and the poorest Americans who earn less than $20,000 a year.
"The top end earners would see a big tax cut and the bottom end would see a big tax increase," Williams said. "Where in the middle it would break even we don't know because we don't have the details of the plan."
The proposal would eliminate the capital gains as well as payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare. Corporations wouldn't pay a tax on dividends and the 9-9-9 plan would lower the corporate income tax from 35 percent to 9 percent.
Cain argued Tuesday night that low-income workers would pay less because he would eliminate payroll taxes, which total 15.3 percent of wages.
Kevin Hassett, an economist and senior fellow at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, praised Cain's plan as moving toward a flat tax.
"If someone's going to attack the 9-9-9 plan I would say they should be careful because you are talking about the Republican holy grail," Hassett said,
The plan, Hassett said, hews to the conservative orthodoxy of "taxing consumption rather than success."
But conservative economists are not unanimous in their support.
But some say they're troubled by the creation of a national sales tax that would give politicians in Washington a new stream of money to meddle with.
"It's very good in theory but very troubling in practice," said Daniel Mitchell, an economist and senior fellow at the Cato Institute. "I don't trust politicians with a new source of revenue."
Still, politically, Cain seems to have struck gold.
The 9-9-9 plan is seemingly easy to understand, with a memorable slogan. It reinforces his image as a political outsider willing to brush aside the Washington bureaucracy and start fresh. And its red meat to the anti-tax tea party crowd where Cain has drawn strong support.
"The best politicians are those that are able to discuss complex policy matters in fairly direct terms," said former Republican strategist Dan Schnur, who now runs a political think tank at the University of Southern California.
In the past, the 65-year-old Cain has compared the tax code to the "21st century version of slavery," a particularly powerful analogy from the lone African-American in the Republican contest.
Still, there are also political trouble spots.
Cain has been fixated on the 9-9-9 plan and to be a viable contender for the GOP nomination he must show a mastery of other issues.
The plan would also implement a new national sales tax, which draws little enthusiasm among the GOP's conservative base.
Former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum scored points at Wednesday's debate when he noted that the proposal would raise the cost of many things citizens purchase every day.
"How many people here are for a sales tax in New Hampshire?" Santorum asked the audience.
Receiving almost no response he turned back to Cain, "there you go, Herman. That's how many votes you'll get in New Hampshire."
Maybe a few more than that. A Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll of Republican primary voters released Wednesday found Romney and Cain in a dead heat, while Perry dropped to 16 percent. Cain was the first choice of 27 percent of those surveyed, while Romney held firm at 23 percent. The poll, which was taken Oct. 6-10, had a margin of error of 5.35 percent.
http://news.yahoo.com/herman-cains-sudden-surge-powered-9-9-9-193640597.html (http://news.yahoo.com/herman-cains-sudden-surge-powered-9-9-9-193640597.html)
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"When you take the 9-9-9 plan and turn it upside down, I think the devil's in the details," she quipped.
That is just fatuous , I am disapointed in her.
It is not really much worse than Perrys, Deer in the headlights,reaction to the math involved or Mitt Romneys , "my plan is more complex , therefore better" attempt at putting the 9-9-9 plan down.
Really more to the point is the question of how much support a new federal sales tax should have."How many people here are for a sales tax in New Hampshire?" Santorum asked the audience.
Do we realise that Herman Cain is putting forward the only Republican plan that includes open increase in some types of tax?
I expect the refined version to have some progressivity , like an exemption for payment from below a threshold or a sales tax exemption on some staple foods.
But the simplicity of the plan is itself a virtue and should not be complexified for any small consideration.
No one thinks rules are fair that they do not understand, how could you assert the fairness of a rule you don't understand?
There is good reason for even the poor to pay taxes , number one because many of the poor are quite patriotic and don't really wnat to shirk their fair share.
Number two part of the poor are not poor in fact , but are poor on paper , the underground economy, even this gets harvested in consumption taxes , provided the taxes are not so high that they drive more commerce underground.
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Cain is a crackpot and a blowhard, and his ridiculous 999 plan is not going to be popular with the general electorate in the unlikely event that he gets the nomination. Who wants to buy a new house or a car and pay a 9% sales tax on it, and get no deduction?
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Do people like the tax laws as they are?
It is like a penalty on renters, which half of us are.
To support a tax that you do not understand is silly, and who claims to understand the tax code?
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Cain is a crackpot and a blowhard, and his ridiculous 999 plan is not going to be popular with the general electorate in the unlikely event that he gets the nomination. Who wants to buy a new house or a car and pay a 9% sales tax on it, and get no deduction?
ONLY A MORON WOULD THINK THAT 9% WOULD BE ADDED TO THE PURCHASE OF A HOME.
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Who wants to buy a new house or a car and pay a 9% sales tax on it, and get no deduction?
The sales tax on a new home is already paid by the builder when he purchases materials. Buying an existing home would be exempt from sales tax. New auto purchases are already charged a sales tax (which is not deductible), so maybe the percentage would change, but people are doing it already.
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The sales tax on a new home is already paid by the builder when he purchases materials. Buying an existing home would be exempt from sales tax. New auto purchases are already charged a sales tax (which is not deductible), so maybe the percentage would change, but people are doing it already.
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STATE sales taxes are charged for cars and maybe for building supplies. We do not know what Cain's silly 999 plan would do, because he has said nothing about it. It is simple a gimmick, and has even less chance of being passed than this blowhard crackpot has of being nominated.
You have to pay state sales tax on both new AND used cars, unless you buy from an individual and lie about the purchase price.
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STATE sales taxes are charged for cars and maybe for building supplies. We do not know what Cain's silly 999 plan would do, because he has said nothing about it. It is simple a gimmick, and has even less chance of being passed than this blowhard crackpot has of being nominated.
He has stated that the 9% sales tax is the same as that proposed by the Fair Tax plan (with a lower rate) and that plan is pretty well documented.
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Let Cain clarify his gimmick. I don't think he has bothered to think it through much at all.
It is quite unlikely to pass Congress, as it ends far too many subsidies and loopholes..
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Let Cain clarify his gimmick. I don't think he has bothered to think it through much at all.
It is quite unlikely to pass Congress, as it ends far too many subsidies and loopholes..
The current tax system is a gimmick and you are an asshole!
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Let Cain clarify his gimmick. I don't think he has bothered to think it through much at all.
It is quite unlikely to pass Congress, as it ends far too many subsidies and loopholes..
I don't want to know exactly your income level so don't bother to be specific.
How much of your income is gone to taxes now?
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My taxes are not the point. Cain has absolutely ZERO experience dealing with Congress or lobbyists. There is NO WAY he could get a majority of Congress to vote for this stupid plan.
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My taxes are not the point. Cain has absolutely ZERO experience dealing with Congress or lobbyists. There is NO WAY he could get a majority of Congress to vote for this stupid plan.
My point is that it would take you most of a day to figure out your tax burden precicely .
Keeping us confused is the biggest reason to have complexity.
Congress has the power to punish and reward with the taxes , this power and no other reason at all would explain Congressional resistance to a simple tax system.
If we elect enough TEA we ought to see some simplifacation.
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If we elect enough TEA we ought to see some simplifacation.
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We would see that a country ruled by simpletons can only come up with simplistic solutions.
I am pretty sure that if we replaced the current tax with Cain's silly plan, I would be paying a lot more, since I would have to pay a 9% tax on every dollar I get from Social Security. I do not pay taxes at any 9% rate now. As I am retired, I do not pay FICA. I pay $96.40 for Medicare premiums every month. The amount of my taxes varies, because it depends on how much I take out of my 403(b) each year, and that depends on major purchases and property taxes, around $1800 per year.
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So it's not OK if your taxes go up, but it's just fine if the other guys does.
And they call the rich greedy.
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I am hardly going to vote for a tax increase on myself. I paid income taxes for 50 years, and now some fool decides that I need to pay 9% more on money from my Social Security income of $18K per year?
No way!
But as I continue to stress, Cain's cockamamie plan will never be enacted, because Cain will not get the nomination, could never win the election, and even if those very improbable events occurred, he would not have the clout to get it through Congress. I doubt that even a majority of Republicans would vote for it.
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I am hardly going to vote for a tax increase on myself.
Yes it's always better to vote for a tax increase on someone else.
That's the progressive way of doing things.
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Let's see, a 9% tax increase on the $18K i get from Social Security, plus a 9% sales tax on everything I buy, including food and drugs. Plus I get to listen to this crackpot blowhard loser on the TV for four years.Yeah, sure, that sounds fair.
And calling Cain a LOSER is 100% accurate: he ran for the Senate and lost. Ergo, he's A LOSER
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Let's see, a 9% tax increase on the $18K i get from Social Security, plus a 9% sales tax on everything I buy, including food and drugs. Plus I get to listen to this crackpot blowhard loser on the TV for four years.Yeah, sure, that sounds fair.
This is the best argument for Cain that I've ever seen. I'd love to see XO suffer.
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Plus I get to listen to this crackpot blowhard loser on the TV for four years.Yeah, sure, that sounds fair.
I don't see why, you havent listened to him yet.
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I have listened to Cain. He is a crackpot and a blowhard.
And if he is so effing great, why didn't he get elected Senator
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44921197/ns/politics-decision_2012/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44921197/ns/politics-decision_2012/) who will pay more? the people who spend more money on new goods. the sales tax only applies to people who buy new goods. not used goods . that's a big difference that doesn't come out.
>> for those 30 million americans who don't pay income tax , including 16 million elderly americans , you concede they would, in fact, pay more.
>> not the elderly. that's two different groups. let's talk about the elderly. you don't pay taxes on your social security income . it replaces the capital gains tax . many of the elderly make money off of their investments, they won't pay that. tax on dividends and tax on income generated from investments, you only pay once. so in that sense, it helps the elderly.
>> the other defect in the plan comes from fellow conservatives who say, you got some problems here. this is what "the wall street journal " said about it this past week. the real political defect, the "journal" writes, of the cain plan is that it imposes a new national sales tax while maintaining the income tax . mr. cain 's rates are desubjectively low but the current income tax was introduced in 1913 , with a top rate of 7% amid promises that it would never exceed 10%. by 1918 the top rate was 77%. the politics of a national sales tax is bad enough on its own. a 9% rate when combined with state and local levies would mean a tax on goods of 17% or more in many places. the cries for exemptions would be great.
>> don't combine it with state taxes. this doesn't address state taxes. if you add them together, yes, you would get that number. this is a replacement structure. these are replacement taxes. they're not on top of anything. we replace capital gains tax . we replace the payroll tax . we replace corporate income tax . replace personal income tax . and replace the death tax . (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44921197/ns/politics-decision_2012/)http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44921197/ns/politics-decision_2012/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44921197/ns/politics-decision_2012/)
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Is the 9-9-9 plan hard to explain to Germans?
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"............Gregory let it go at that and moved on to another one of Cain's presumably insufficiently thoughtful statements: "You've also said that stupid people are ruining America.... Who exactly are you talking about?"
MR. CAIN: People who are uninformed. People who will not look at an alternate idea. People who are so dug in with partisanship and partisan politics. Open-mindedness is what's going to save this country. The reason that my message is appealing is because it's simple and people can understand it. You know, a good idea transcends party politics...
Somehow, the next question on Gregory's list was: "Is race a factor in this campaign?" Obviously, Cain's answer is going to be no. I'm more interested in why Gregory jumped from "stupid people" to race. Gregory next displays the new Newsweek cover, which calls Cain "the Anti-Obama," and starts to put together a question: "You've actually talked a bit about race, though, and you've created a contrast between yourself and your experience as an African-American, a term you don't like, by the way."
So suddenly the topic is the terminology of race: African-American or black American, which Cain prefers. Gregory asks why. Cain says:
Because my roots go back through slavery in this country. Yes, they came from Africa, but the roots of my heritage are in the United States of America. So I consider myself a black American.
That's a very rich statement. Slavery is a heritage. But Gregory goes for the implicit distinction between Cain and Obama: "So you draw some distinction between yourself and your experiences as a black man in America and the experience of President Obama."
Cain says:
Absolutely. I came from very humble beginnings. My mother was a maid, my father was a barber and janitor and a chauffeur. We, we had to, we had to learn--do things the old-fashioned way. We had to work for it. I--my parents never saw themselves as a victim, so I didn't learn how to be a victim. I didn't have anything given to me. I had to work very hard in order to be able to go to school and work my way through school....
Notice how simply and vividly he struck a chord — the classic black American experience — and made it resonate for anyone who works for living. There is a quality of nobility, that fits with the idea of heritage. Gregory is at a complete loss, I think, to do anything with this:
MR. GREGORY: You actually said President Obama's outside the mainstream. So you're making a different, more of a social cultural background distinction between you and the president.
MR. CAIN: More experiential. Look at his experiences vs. my experiences. It was more at a contrast of experiential differences than anything else.
MR. GREGORY: Let's talk about foreign policy...
YET MORE: I liked the way, when asked to name his model for the ideal Supreme Court justice, he focused on Clarence Thomas:
I believe that Justice Clarence Thomas, despite all of the attacks that he gets from the left, he basically rules and makes his decisions, in my opinion, based upon the Constitution and solid legal thinking. Justice Clarence Thomas is one of my models.
MR. GREGORY: Has he been targeted unfairly, you think?
MR. CAIN: I think he has been targeted unfairly.
Gregory declines to follow up about what the unfairness was. He moves on to the topic of Cain's wife Gloria, who's been invisible so far. He gave a lovely explanation:
My wife and I, we have a family life, and she is maintaining the calmness and the tranquility of that family life so, when I do get a day off of the campaign trail, I can go home and enjoy my family.
She's his wife, not America's wife. Home is a refuge. That's a good traditionalist message. "http://althouse.blogspot.com/
Posted by Ann Althouse at 1:11 PM 197 comments
Tags: "Meet the Press", Clarence Thomas, David Gregory, Herman Cain, political spouse, racial politics, slavery, taxes
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Is the 9-9-9 plan hard to explain to Germans?
nine