Author Topic: Broken Army  (Read 24481 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2006, 10:29:33 AM »
Should we have no freinds in the region?

Every government in the area is to some degree undemocratic or repressive by our standards , I don't think we can shun all of them.

I didn't know that the Carter administration was trying to preserve the Pavlavi dynasty , what in particular was done?

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What?

When we impose unpopular and hated tyrants on a nation, we are not making friends, or having friends.

We not only do not shun most of the governments in the Middle East, we support them in a manner that can be called slavish. Have you not seen Juniorbush walking along holding hands with Prince Bandar?

Carter did not try to preserve the Pahavis, because the Shah was too far gone and his son was too young and some say stupid.
Kissinger did all he could to impose a man named Baktiar.

My point is that we are not loved in the Middle East because of exceedingly bad decisions by our rulers. As a rule, the worst decisions have been made, as in Latin America, by Republicans.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2006, 12:22:44 AM »
So when we foster a democratic government we are making freinds?


Not with the government s nearby that are not democratic I suppose.


In the past we have tried to make freinds with the governments as we found them , or fostered the replacement of an unfreindly government with a freindly one whether it was democratic or not.

Now for the first time we are trying to encourage the People to take the reigns in two governments in the region , no wonder they hate us.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2006, 08:50:56 AM »
Saudi Arabia is the LEAST democratic government in the Middle East.
JUniorbush likes to stroll about, holding hands with Prince Bandar.

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Iran has regular elections.
Juniorbush is spending millions to destablize Iran.
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Israel actively practices apartheid against Palestinians.
Palestinians have elections, Juniorbush does not like Hamas that won them fair and square.
Juniorbush refuses to talk to Hamas. Only when Jimmy Carter denounces this garbage for what it is, are any slight changes made.
Otherwise, the Palestinians can starve. Their children can starve, and Palestinians who just want to work can be held for six hours every day at checkpoints.

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Juniorbush would not recognize democracy if it bit him on his tallywhacker.

Which some should at least try.
I suggest an Italian mastiff.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2006, 03:48:36 AM »
Saudi Arabia is the LEAST democratic government in the Middle East.
JUniorbush likes to stroll about, holding hands with Prince Bandar.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iran has regular elections.
Juniorbush is spending millions to destablize Iran.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel actively practices apartheid against Palestinians.
Palestinians have elections, Juniorbush does not like Hamas that won them fair and square.
Juniorbush refuses to talk to Hamas. Only when Jimmy Carter denounces this garbage for what it is, are any slight changes made.
Otherwise, the Palestinians can starve. Their children can starve, and Palestinians who just want to work can be held for six hours every day at checkpoints.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Juniorbush would not recognize democracy if it bit him on his tallywhacker.

Which some should at least try.
I suggest an Italian mastiff.

The Saudis seem to be good sports , putting up with a new democracy on their border which we odviously intend to be the model for the future of the region.

But the Saudis are an example of our takeing a government as we find it and makeing it our freind.

Which mode do you like better?

_JS

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2006, 05:08:20 PM »
Quote
This is the question before you.

Is violent radical islam worth stopping in its tracks.

If not now, when.

A ridiculous question because it implies that the war in Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein (a secular leader who drew the ire of many religious radicals) is the only accepted path to stop violent radical Islam "in its tracks." Clearly that is not the case. In fact, warfare in general is likely not a very intelligent path to stop terrorism. An historical lesson we could learn from Israel and Northern Ireland.

So yes, all terrorism is worth stopping. But no, this was not the proper path to stop it. In fact, this wasn't even in the same ballpark.
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sirs

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2006, 05:44:44 PM »
yes, all terrorism is worth stopping. But no, this was not the proper path to stop it. In fact, this wasn't even in the same ballpark.

 :-\  Well, that's one opinion.  One not shared by those who can grasp the concept of connections both direct & indirect that were present between terrorists and Saddam's regime, when we went into Iraq. 

And "no" nothing will stop radical Islam "in it's tracks" outside of nuking a determined location that every Islamofascist radical happens to at.  Since that is as unlikely as the Earth's rotation reversing, the best we can do is keep knocking it down, bit by bit, where & when we can.

Or does Js have a suggestion that will stop radical Islam "in its tracks"?  Hint, "being nice" to them won't work
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2006, 07:47:27 PM »
Quote
A ridiculous question because it implies that the war in Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein (a secular leader who drew the ire of many religious radicals) is the only accepted path to stop violent radical Islam "in its tracks."

I don't believe i ever made that claim, so i guess my "ridiculous" question was met by a "ridiculous" response.

However, if not there, where.

If not now, when?

Michael Tee

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2006, 11:15:22 PM »
It was kind of interesting to follow the thread and see how many of the warmongers' attitudes were based on raw emotion, usually of the most primitive and basic kinds:  "capitulating to car bombers" (rage, fear); fight 'em over there instead of over here(pure fear); fostering a perception of strength (fear again); although occasionally the emotion appealed to was something a little softer and less primitive - - pity, or not wanting to hurt the feelings of the (U.S.) fighters, which domer (perhaps in another thread) and plane raised.  There was even an appeal to herd instinct (the U.S. people supported it 90% once upon a time, so it's weak and dastardly not to maintain that 90% level till now.)

Not surprisingly, the logic and facts all seemed to be on the anti-war side, but were given short shrift by the war-lovers.  XO's detailed list of just some of the numerous Israeli and American actions that would pretty well account for much of the hostility of "violent radical Islam" was dismissed out-of-hand by domer and never referred to again.

What you could see forming was a kind of nascent fascism, the reduction of complex geopolitical struggles into issues, not of right and wrong, but of weakness and strength.  The American people (but NOT the American army) was "weak" because it did not support "its own" military in its mission.  As if the army had its own separate existence and mission in which the role of the American people were to offer blind and unconditional support.  The idea of the army as the agent and servant of the people themselves being something of a non-starter.

The idea that a clique of non-elected men of enormous wealth and influence somehow coalesce around certain candidates (of either party) for office, supply them with talent and money and instructions and prepare plans delineating specific roles to the Army, the politicians and the media is brushed aside for the more simplistic assumption that "the American people" have spoken, through their "elected representatives" and the resultant wars must be supported by all "strong" Americans, although unfortunately the once-"strong" nation seems to be infested by a lot of "weak" individuals who are somehow sapping its great strength.  All very interesting from a Hitlerian perspective.  What will happen when enough "strong" Americans realize that unless they "do something" about the "weak" in their midst, that the nation will never be able to "stand tall" and be "strong" again?  Hopefully, saner minds will prevail and we'll never have to find out.

BT

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2006, 12:00:51 AM »
Quote
It was kind of interesting to follow the thread ....

You confuse resolve for a desire for perpetual war, the fact is resolve equates to wanting to end it once and for all.

Resolve is part of the equation. It goes with the stick,  just as concessions go with the carrot.


Michael Tee

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2006, 01:08:29 AM »
"Resolve" is a value-free term.  Hitler showed resolve in his determination to exterminate the Jews and Churchill showed resolve in his determination to destroy Hitler.  Resolve is only as good or as bad as the goal upon which it is fixed.  If for example, the war on Iraq is a very bad thing, then it is a very bad thing to be "resolute" in pursuing that warl

In effect, your show of disgust for the American people's lack of "resolution" is off the mark; what you are really disgusted about is their failure to see the pursuit of the war as a good and desirable end, which (like WWII) would probably have brought out that resolve that you now find to be so sorely lacking.

Incidentally, I don't believe I accused American militarists of wanting perpetual war, or if I did, that was sloppy thinking on my part.  I think militarism is really born of fear - - with the exception of a few "happy warriors" who delight in slaughter and carnage and are eager to blow other human beings apart completely legally, I would say that most militarists are simple souls - - idiots, in fact - - who are easily scared and easily manipulated.  They soon come to see the army as the only thing standing between them and a vast horde of bogeymen ("the Jews," the Red Menace, radical Islam) that their leaders constantly wail would eat them alive in minutes were it not for "our boys in uniform."  The other factor in militarism of course is powerlessness - - some poor wage-slave whose life is not his own, who scrapes through life with barely enough to make ends meet, puts up with countless humiliations at work and in the home, sees "his" flag painted on the side of that Tomahawk that can incinerate some poor bugger's home and family in one pass, "his" flag on the shoulder patch of that 22-year-old kid with the 50-calibre machine gun who just lit up a wedding party in their old beat-up jalopy, and vicariously experiences the thrill of real power, exercised in his name.  I'm an American, you fucker, yeah!!  And now how do you like THAT?

sirs

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2006, 01:24:29 AM »
It was kind of interesting to follow the thread and see how many of the warmongers' attitudes were based on raw emotion, usually of the most primitive and basic kinds.....Not surprisingly, the logic and facts all seemed to be on the anti-war side, but were given short shrift by the war-lovers.  

Doncha just love to watch how easy some are at completely disconnecting themselves from current reality.   The art of projection at it's finest.  We could go point by point, yet again, with the facts and logic that took us into Iraq.  We could address the NIE & Global intelligence conclusions on the disposition of Saddam's WMD prior to going into Iraq, & the throng of committees that concluded how none of the intel was abused, shaped, or distorted in taking us to war.  We could hit all those facts that Tee & co give a short shrift to, while he and like minds connect non-existant dots, as to how Bush stole the election & lied us into war.  We could even address the nonsensical hyperbole of "war lovers".  We could, but it's all been done adnauseum already.

Some fine entertainment though, Tee
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 02:08:08 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2006, 01:58:09 AM »
Michael, you're nothing if not consistent: consistently extreme, hyperbolic, morally outraged without a good sense of morals. No one in his right mind or right conscience would promote the horrors you list. They are to be avoided virtually at all costs. Yet, the realities of the world literally force people to endure this suffering, and participate in its creation, toward the end of averting much worse of the same kind.

Humans are flawed, and I would present George W. Bush as exhibit number one on that account. He made a tragically flawed, monumently poor decision to invade Iraq for reasons retrospect clearly dissolves. The invasion was a mistake. The horrors of war were unleashed for no good reason. I went along with the tide that trusted the administration with this terrible decision, for lack of understanding. One does the best he can with what he knows. The responsibility for this mess lies squarely with the president, who is notoriously in denial. In my opinion, oft-repeated, he was at least negligent in his duties, if not reckless. History will judge him harshly, as contemporary journalists have begun to do. Yet, you take criticism of the man and his administration to the point of lunacy in your unbridled condemnation and overt hatred. Though shrouded, your virulence stems from reasons far deeper than the trivial caricatures you present as argument. In a sense: physician, heal thyself.

Your cynical outrage, what you see (and revel in) as a clearcut chance to be grandly self-righteous, aggravates the situation. Your concern, to me, is not genuine as to those that suffer but instrumental to your chance to "moralize" with a vengeance, a vengeance I suspect (but of course can't know) that goes back to the nightmare your people suffered during the last great war. Thus, your cynicism, to me, is emotionally based and utilitarian in nature: you like to bitch as if you're God's saving (indeed, avenging) angel, when in fact you throw flames on the fire by your very acts of hate. You see matters in black and white, much like Bush. In doing so, you distort reality and impinge on the truth.

That truth is not as simple as you would like it to be. Granted that the invasion should never have occurred, we nonethless have to face, realistically, the situation now confronting us. Much lies on our future course. As an example, I have been on a one-man campaign tilting at windmills in this club to divine the right thing to do going forward. Regardless of prologue, the task we now have is to leave Iraq in the best position we can and extricate ourselves as quickly and deftly as possible, for among other reasons to fight the overall struggle with violent, radical Islam more intelligently and effectively. To that end, in my view, as I've stated ad nauseam, there are limited avenues of action. The two I deem rational are an embrace of the Iraq Study Group proposals, which is preferable to my mind, or a last chance to buy more time for the Iraqi government to take control and actually function as an effective government by a "surge" of troops. While I think this latter course is up against much greater odds, almost prohibitively so, I will "support" that decision until silence exacerbates the situation. We really don't know what will come about, and our speculation is idle until we have some hard facts to work with.


Plane

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2006, 02:14:18 AM »
Quote
"...Regardless of prologue, the task we now have is to leave Iraq in the best position we can and extricate ourselves as quickly and deftly as possible, for among other reasons to fight the overall struggle with violent, radical Islam more intelligently and effectively."


Can't disagree with that, but what about the Iraq study group is helpfull to these ends?

domer

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2006, 02:19:49 AM »
Somewhere between the lines, notoriously unformed and unarticulated by Bush's opposition, there is a grand vision of a war fought religiously, culturally and politically -- that is, civilly if robustly -- in addition to the necessary military, intelligence and law enforcement actions needed to stanch gross excrescences of the violent, radical Islamic enemy.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Broken Army
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2006, 02:23:31 AM »
. The two I deem rational are an embrace of the Iraq Study Group proposals, which is preferable to my mind, or a last chance to buy more time for the Iraqi government to take control and actually function as an effective government by a "surge" of troops. While I think this latter course is up against much greater odds, almost prohibitively so, I will "support" that decision until silence exacerbates the situation. We really don't know what will come about, and our speculation is idle until we have some hard facts to work with.
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The "surge" will kill a lot of people, and some of them will be Americans. It does not seem likely to solve anything, because the tryth is that the soldiers of the Iraqi Army do not want to kill other Iraqis because they know (and probably agree with) the centuries-old tradition of tribal reprisals. If you happen to kill this guy, his family will take revenge, perhaps on you, perhaps on your family. So they let the Americans do the killing.

No amount of "surge" will change this and make the Iraqi soldiers brave, or even good soldiers.

On the other hand, the "surge" will serve the same pupose of the Tet Offensive in Vietnam or the Battle of the Bulge: it will either be the final conclusive thrust, or the last desperate futile attempt for 'victory'.

No matter that the eventual state of Iraq's government will be determined after the US no longer has a significant presence in Iraq. That day must come and will come.

It would be useful to simply have a plebiscite on whether the Americans stay or leave every six months. It's their country: let them decide. The understanding would be that if we leave, we stop repairing stuff and throwing money and Halliburton at every problem in the Iraqi infrastructure.

The Iraq Study Group did make a number of recommendations, and a of them seem to have some merit. Sitting on Israel to end its apartheid and holding discussions with Syria and Iran are among the most useful, but Juniorbush doesn't seem to be too keen on either one.

The mild reforms in Israel policies regarding the Palestinians I deem to be a result of Carter's trip,

I totally reject the spurious 'evidence' of WMD's and Saddam collaborating with Al Qaeda before the invasion. It sounded bogus before the invasion. The only difference is that I thought that Cheney, as smart as he is supposed to be, would not have turned out to be as ignorant and moronic as Juniorbush. After all, Cheney was supposed to be the Adult Supervision, in addition to the competent and totally ignored Colin Powell.

 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."