DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: R.R. on December 10, 2008, 12:54:10 AM
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This is madness. The federal government is bailing out everything that moves. No bank in the world would loan money to any of these automakers with their failed business model, so why should the American people?
Ford, GM and Chrysler all build inferior products to their foreign counterparts. And their heathcare and pension costs are far higher. They should be allowed to fail if nobody wants to buy their products.
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10% of the workforce is related to the new car auto industry. That crashes we have social problems.
Serious problems.
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We'll get through it. This is America. We have made the best of challenges before. We've already lost 1.2 million jobs over the past quarter. We will get through this. But we can't bail out the big three just because they are large and provide many jobs. What about the local mom and pop hardware store down the road forced to close up because of tough economic times? Where's their bailout money? They don't have millions to spend on lobbyists. Everybody is hurting right now. Sucking the government teat is not the answer.
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Sucking the government teat is not the answer.
What is?
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Allowing the auto industry to fail to make a point would cost more than a rescue attempt. If the GOP filibusters this, they will rightfully be compared to Hoover for the next 40 years.
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Allowing the auto industry to fail to make a point would cost more than a rescue attempt. If the GOP filibusters this, they will rightfully be compared to Hoover for the next 40 years.
If it wasnt so potentially disastrous , this would be a good reason to want them to do it.
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The answer is that there is no government solution to this. All a federal government should do is give the conditions to allow businesses to thrive such as low regulations and low taxes and then get out of the way. They shouldn't be in the business of running businesses, such as Chris Dodd suggesting who the CEO of GM should be. All three automakers are losing billions per month. This $15 billion bailout is just a drop in the bucket. It's not going to be nearly enough. They will be back for more. And I don't think the American taxpayer should be propping them up. When you add in pension costs and healthcare, worker costs are double at the big three than their foreign counterparts that have American plants. GM has become more of a healthcare provider than an automaker. Failed businesses should be allowed to fail, no matter how big and lethargic they have gotten.
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XO and Knutey, the Dems got us into this mess by forcing banks to make loans to people who couldn't afford them. The last people in the world who should be running the auto industry are Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. They are both incompetent.
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The government will have to take over the pension funds if GM and Chrysler go under. It will cost more if they go under.
You think Dodd and Frank are incompetent, and that they will be somehow running the auto industry. Neither of these "facts" is true.
The main reason cars are not selling is a lack of financing. The banks are not allowing people to borrow against the equity in their homes.
New cars in the US are often bought by people who do not actually need them, Faced with hard times, they are
simply not buying.
Watch and see, the Republicans will not filibuster anything. They don't have the votes, and at least some of them are too smart to do this. Not gonna happen.
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All three automakers are losing billions per month.
Actually, Ford is not. They have a $24B losses in three years, so it's less than a billion a month. Also, Ford doesn't want actual cash, they just want a guarantee that they will have access to cash if they need it over the next year (if economic conditions get worse).
GM and Chrysler, however, are in much worse shape, and they want actual cash right now.
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XO and Knutey, the Dems got us into this mess by forcing banks to make loans to people who couldn't afford them. The last people in the world who should be running the auto industry are Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. They are both incompetent.
If you are referring the CRA , this is just another RW lie.Even the OC Register the most RW of RW newspapers knows this. Only y'all blind morons dont.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/loans-subprime-banks-2228728-law-lenders# (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/loans-subprime-banks-2228728-law-lenders#)
Frank & Dodd would do a much better job running the auto companies than the Bushidiot did running the county.
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The government will have to take over the pension funds if GM and Chrysler go under. It will cost more if they go under.
That is spin that I have heard labor leaders say. The government has a pension guarantee fund that companies have to pay a premium into to protect against their own failure. It's more like an insurance policy funded by premiums paid by the company.
You think Dodd and Frank are incompetent, and that they will be somehow running the auto industry. Neither of these "facts" is true.
An appointment of a car czar is not running the auto industry?
The main reason cars are not selling is a lack of financing. The banks are not allowing people to borrow against the equity in their homes.
Most people don't have any equity in their homes.
This all comes full circle to Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. Their risky scheme to force banks to make bad loans to people who couldn't repay them has been a disaster. And yes, they are both incompetent. That is a fact. Chris Dodd himself should be under investigation for accepting a favored loan from Countrywide.
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Only y'all blind morons dont.
Let's leave the personal insults out of this, if you can.
Frank & Dodd would do a much better job running the auto companies than the Bushidiot did running the county.
Frank and Dodd don't have any experience running the auto industry, or any business whatsoever. So I have to say that I disagree with your idea to have them run it. They should both be kicked off their congressional committees.
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There is no proposal to let Frank or Dodd run the auto industry.
Neither will be removed from his committee.
The Republicans will not filibuster this bill.
Most people probably DO have equity in their homes, but those that do are either not interested in buying a new car (my home is paid in full, and I will never, ever buy a new car or even a car on credit, for example), or they cannot borrow against it.
Only by doing this is the cost of the loan deductible according to the tax code.
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Only y'all blind morons dont.
Let's leave the personal insults out of this, if you can.
Frank & Dodd would do a much better job running the auto companies than the Bushidiot did running the county.
Frank and Dodd don't have any experience running the auto industry, or any business whatsoever. So I have to say that I disagree with your idea to have them run it. They should both be kicked off their congressional committees.
I said y'all so it wasnt personal :P
You do however lie like a rock. You claim that most folks dont have equity in their homes when 84 % do.
At the end of March, nearly 8.5 million homeowners had negative or no equity in their homes, representing more than 16 percent of all homeowners with a mortgage, according to Moody’s Economy.com Chief Economist Mark Zandi. By June 2009, he estimates that will increase to 12.2 million, or almost one out of every four homeowners with a mortgage.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24988315/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24988315/)
So you either lie or are stupid like your hero the Bushidiot. You dont have a clue. You just regurgitate Rushisms.
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RR, Christians 4LG and Richpo all seem to be dittoheads, just some are more annoying than others.
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RR, Christians 4LG and Richpo all seem to be dittoheads, just some are more annoying than others.
I hate to say it , but I bet even Rush would say that most people dont have eqiuty in their homes. What total nonsense!
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I hate to say it , but I bet even Rush would say that most people don't have eqiuty in their homes. What total nonsense!
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Rush says whatever he is paid to say. He is a hired mercenary leader of the lumpenproletariat. Most of what he says in nonsense, but he is credible because, despite his lack of even a BA degree, he SOUNDS like he knew stuff. It's like thinking that laughing Elmo actually thinks something is funny.
It might be true that many, or even most, people who are accustomed to using their home equity can no longer do so to buy new cars.
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I hate to say it , but I bet even Rush would say that most people dont have eqiuty in their homes. What total nonsense!
You are ill informed because you rely on Air America.
Very few people have equity in their homes as banks are shutting down equity lines due to plummeting home values. This is another negative consequence of the Dodd-Frank credit crisis.
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There is no proposal to let Frank or Dodd run the auto industry.
Don't tell them that. They are big government liberals. Dodd was mouthing off yesterday saying that he was going to bring the auto industry back to profitablity. He said that GM's CEO Wagner should "move on." These are not his calls to make. It's outragious that he is even involved in the bailout negotionations considering his sweetheart deal from Countrywide.
Neither will be removed from his committee.
They should.
The Republicans will not filibuster this bill.
They may not have to if there are not enough votes to pass it.
Most people probably DO have equity in their homes, but those that do are either not interested in buying a new car (my home is paid in full, and I will never, ever buy a new car or even a car on credit, for example), or they cannot borrow against it.
Banks are shutting down and closing equity lines. The equity line of credit is becoming a thing of the past. As well it should. People should not be using their homes as a bank.
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>>People should not be using their homes as a bank<<
Thats been going on here since shortly after the pilgrims arrived. It may slow down for awhile, but it won't stop, nor should it.
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Borrowing against your house to buy a car is a smart move, as it's the only way that the interest is deductible. Conservatives should be all for it, because it results in fewer taxes paid, which, of course, results in smaller government. ::)
Actually, buying a car on credit is stupid: people should save the money and then plunk down a cash payment. If that's too hard to do, then they have no real business buying a new car.
Credit cards are useful for buying online and by phone so you can get the stuff sooner, and should be paid in full every month.
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As what I could get from a sale falls, the equity avlible in ownership falls.
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Borrowing against your house to buy a car is a smart move, as it's the only way that the interest is deductible.
I wasn't aware of this. Thank you. Provided somebody has enough credit and equity to refinance or their bank hasn't frozen their equity line, I would have to reconsider my opinion on this.
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Borrowing against your house to buy a car is a smart move, as it's the only way that the interest is deductible.
I wasn't aware of this. Thank you. Provided somebody has enough credit and equity to refinance or their bank hasn't frozen their equity line, I would have to reconsider my opinion on this.
I have to give you credit for your honesty and/or lack of Systemic Sclerosis of the brain. Unlike some brain-dead aliens in here that persist in their stupidity long after they have been proven wrong thinking , probly , that it is cute rather than the blithering stupidity that it is.
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I imagine that most new cars before the current crisis were purchased by using a home equity loan, as this is the best way to manage borrowing $12,000 to $80,000. The interest is not deductible unless it is on your home. Of course, this is against the spirit of the home interest deduction.
If you are in the 25% bracket, a $30,000 loan at 8% would be $2400 in interest, and the deduction would be $600 per year for maybe 5 or 6 years.
If people only bought what they could afford, meaning buy for cash, then the average car would not be junked after 8 years, and more people would be driving Cobalts, Fits, Corollas, Rios and Accents.
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Unlike some brain-dead aliens in here that persist in their stupidity long after they have been proven wrong thinking , probly , that it is cute rather than the blithering stupidity that it is.
You really must get over your school girl crush on me.
Besides, you have never been able to prove me wrong. Insults are not "proof" of anything.
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Unlike some brain-dead aliens in here that persist in their stupidity long after they have been proven wrong thinking , probly , that it is cute rather than the blithering stupidity that it is.
You really must get over your school girl crush on me.
Besides, you have never been able to prove me wrong. Insults are not "proof" of anything.
If the shoe fits as they say.
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what i don`t understand is they`re dependant on each other,it` stated that if either ones goes all three will tank.
I don`t see why the top two can`t just eat the weakest and be stronger for it.
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>>RR, Christians 4LG and Richpo all seem to be dittoheads, just some are more annoying than others.<<
This freaking retard has a real Rush fixation. It seems to be matched only with his fixation on me.
Well BO, I really should tell you nobody who listens to Rush minds you pointing out the fact that they do. Simply listening to Rush isn't enough to get all the information one needs to discuss current events. However just a few minutes of Rush gives anyone enough information to make a shit throwing monkey out of you.
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RR, Christians 4LG and Richpo all seem to be dittoheads, just some are more annoying than others.
I am hurt to be left off that list.
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However just a few minutes of Rush gives anyone enough information to make a shit throwing monkey out of you.
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He's surely made one out of you. You are the shit throwingest monkey in here since the unlamented departure of Kramer
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Ah, the ole "I know you are but what am I" defense.
You really got me there evil monkey
(http://static.flickr.com/2098/1992145438_c60f3060f0.jpg)
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Auto bailout bill dies in Senate
Senate Democrats and the White House failed to find 60 votes to end debate on a $14 billion auto bailout bill and bring it to a vote Thursday night, killing the measure for the year.
The 52-35 vote followed the collapse of negotiations between Senate Democrats and Republicans seeking a compromise.
"We have worked and worked and we can spend all night tonight, tomorrow, Saturday, and Sunday, and we're not going to get to the finish line," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said on the Senate floor before the vote. "That's just the way it is. There's too much difference between the two sides."
Reid acknowledged the bill would not survive the procedural vote.
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said the sticking point was the United Auto Workers' refusal to set a "date certain" to put employees at U.S. auto manufacturers at "parity pay" with U.S. employees at foreign automakers in the United States.
Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research.
The House easily passed the bailout bill earlier this week, but it quickly ran into trouble in the Senate, where Republicans objected to several provisions. Negotiations Thursday involved a compromise proposal put forward by Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tennessee, but the senators could not reach agreement.
The collapse of negotiations could possibly doom General Motors to a bankruptcy and closure in the coming weeks, with Chrysler potentially following close behind.
While Ford Motor has more cash on hand to avoid an immediate crisis, its production could be disrupted by problems in the supplier base, as could the production of overseas automakers with U.S. plants such as Toyota Motor and Honda Motor.
The struggling automakers may get some money anyway.
As part of their effort to urge skeptical Republicans to back the deal, Bush officials made clear that if Congress didn't act, the White House would have to step in to save Detroit from collapse with funds from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, according to the sources familiar with the conversations.
One of the sources said that a White House official made it clear to a GOP senator that would be the worst option, because the loan could go to the auto companies with few or no requirements along with it.
The sources asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of private conversations.
Democrats pressed the White House from the start to help Detroit by using some of the $700 billion for the financial sector, but the White House and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson refused.
"I would only hope that the president, who has worked so well with us for the past several weeks, would now consider using the TARP money," Reid said after Thursday night's vote.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/11/auto.bailout/?iref=mpstoryview (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/11/auto.bailout/?iref=mpstoryview)
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We'll get through it. This is America. We have made the best of challenges before. We've already lost 1.2 million jobs over the past quarter. We will get through this. But we can't bail out the big three just because they are large and provide many jobs. What about the local mom and pop hardware store down the road forced to close up because of tough economic times? Where's their bailout money? They don't have millions to spend on lobbyists. Everybody is hurting right now. Sucking the government teat is not the answer.
Inflexible and intractable.
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What is, Brass? Where's your condemnation of Congress for not bailing out EVERY failing/struggling business?? Doesn't Home Depot have more employees than the big 3?? Oh that's right, not high in Union employment. The pattern thus emerges
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What is, Brass? Where's your condemnation of Congress for not bailing out EVERY failing/struggling business?? Doesn't Home Depot have more employees than the big 3?? Oh that's right, not high in Union employment. The pattern thus emerges
You're making yet another assumption about me and I'm damned sick of it.
It is my position that unions have abused their power in the past but that is not a reason to forever condemn and outlaw the concept of unionizing.
How can someone like myself who has spent hours and hours theorizing on how to initiate an RBE be against bailouts in toto? Answer: I can't.
I think that WALMART WORKERS in the US should unionize and get a bigger piece of the WALMART pie. I might actually start shopping there if they did.
BT is right. If we don't bail these morons out (with heavy ropes, not strings attached) we are going to see another perhaps even worse Depression.
America has been pushing around paper for almost 30 years now and it's all coming crashing down now. The best thing we can do, as a nation (if that matters), is start off with a rousing rendition of Khumbaya followed closely by a fullthroated chorus version of Canned Heat's Let's Work Together.
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>>Inflexible and intractable.<<
Correct. The UAW is both those things. Had they been willing to serve the best interest of their members they could have avoided their complete destruction. They couldn't, and they unwittingly did the right thing for the country.
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What is, Brass? Where's your condemnation of Congress for not bailing out EVERY failing/struggling business?? Doesn't Home Depot have more employees than the big 3?? Oh that's right, not high in Union employment. The pattern thus emerges
You're making yet another assumption about me and I'm damned sick of it.
It is my position that unions have abused their power in the past but that is not a reason to forever condemn and outlaw the concept of unionizing.
How can someone like myself who has spent hours and hours theorizing on how to initiate an RBE be against bailouts in toto? Answer: I can't.
I think that WALMART WORKERS in the US should unionize and get a bigger piece of the WALMART pie. I might actually start shopping there if they did.
BT is right. If we don't bail these morons out (with heavy ropes, not strings attached) we are going to see another perhaps even worse Depression.
America has been pushing around paper for almost 30 years now and it's all coming crashing down now. The best thing we can do, as a nation (if that matters), is start off with a rousing rendition of Khumbaya followed closely by a fullthroated chorus version of Canned Heat's Let's Work Together.
I think the most important point right now is that everyone has to work together. Like BT said, negotiate for 2010. The unions and the employees have to budge a bit. And the GOP will have to budge some too.
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What is, Brass? Where's your condemnation of Congress for not bailing out EVERY failing/struggling business?? Doesn't Home Depot have more employees than the big 3?? Oh that's right, not high in Union employment. The pattern thus emerges
You're making yet another assumption about me and I'm damned sick of it. It is my position that unions have abused their power in the past but that is not a reason to forever condemn and outlaw the concept of unionizing.
Didn't ask that now, did I? This isn't about condemning Unions. Where's the condemnation aimed at Congress for not bailing out EVERY struggling/failing business?? In particular, those that don't have Union jobs??
And it will get worse, no matter what is done, but substantially worse, IF such a bailout is pushed. Inflation will skyrocket, as soon as the economy starts to turn around, with all the added $$$$ printed by the Fed, in the system. Unemployment will continue in ALL avenues of business, not just the auto industry, and there will be the Car Czar, appointed by Obama saying "look, they need more $$$$ or we are going to see another perhaps even worse Depression." The politics of fear as exemplified by DC
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Labor is 10% of the cost of building the car.
When the feds bailed out the banks, they let the execs keep their huge salaries. They even let that insurance company go on its annual $400 per day spa retreat.
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There's going to have to compromises across the board.
I have always been troubled by the loss of manufacturing capability and the factory jobs that went with it to over seas.
We didn't just export the jobs we exported self reliance.
I don't see why environmentalists, alternative energists and job producing manufacturers can't work hand in hand.
We shuffle paper, we don't make things.
It's like Atlas Shrugged and Bonfire of the Vanities merged.
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>>Labor is 10% of the cost of building the car.<<
I wonder where this number comes from. I can't verify it.