DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BT on December 26, 2006, 09:09:58 PM
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Where Real Money Meets Virtual Reality, The Jury Is Still Out
By Alan Sipress
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 26, 2006; A01
Veronica Brown is a hot fashion designer, making a living off the virtual lingerie and formalwear she sells inside the online fantasy world Second Life. She expects to have earned about $60,000 this year from people who buy her digital garments to outfit their animated self-images in this fast-growing virtual community.
But Brown got an unnerving reminder last month of how tenuous her livelihood is when a rogue software program that copies animated objects appeared in Second Life. Scared that their handiwork could be cloned and sold by others, Brown and her fellow shopkeepers launched a general strike and briefly closed the electronic storefronts where they peddle digital furniture, automobiles, hairdos and other virtual wares.
"It was fear, fear of your effort being stolen,'' said Brown, 44, whose online alter ego, Simone Stern, trades under the name Simone! Design.
Brown has reopened her boutique but remains uncomfortably aware that the issue of whether she owns what she makes -- a fundamental right underpinning nearly all businesses -- is unresolved.
As virtual worlds proliferate across the Web, software designers and lawyers are straining to define property rights in this emerging digital realm. The debate over these rights extends far beyond the early computer games that pioneered virtual reality into the new frontiers of commerce.
"Courts are trying to figure out how to apply laws from real life, which we've grown accustomed to, to the new world," said Greg Lastowka, a professor at Rutgers School of Law at Camden in New Jersey. "The law is struggling to keep up."
U.S. courts have heard several cases involving virtual-world property rights but have yet to set a clear precedent clarifying whether people own the electronic goods they make, buy or accumulate in Second Life and other online landscapes. Also unclear is whether people have any claim when their real-life property is depicted online, for instance in Microsoft's new three-dimensional renderings of actual real estate.
The debate is assuming greater urgency as commerce gains pace in virtual reality. In Second Life, where nearly 2 million people have signed up to create their own characters and socialize with other digital beings, the virtual economy is booming, with total transactions in November reaching the equivalent of $20 million. Second Life's creator, Linden Lab, allows members to exchange the electronic currency they accumulate online with real U.S. dollars. Last month, people converted about $3 million at the Lindex currency market.
Second Life's economy has been surging since Linden Lab made the unusual decision three years ago to grant users intellectual property rights for what they create with the Web site's free software tools. Thousands of people have created homes and businesses on virtual land leased from the site and are peddling virtual items as varied as yachts and ice cream.
Congress has taken note and is completing a study of whether income in the virtual economy, such as from the sale of gowns that Brown makes, should be taxed by the Internal Revenue Service. The Joint Economic Committee of Congress is expected to issue its findings early next year.
"There seems to be a lack of ground rules in an area that would have explosive growth in the next decade or two," said Christopher Frenze, the committee's executive director.
Though she grew up watching her mother at the sewing machine, learning the craft with each loving stitch of the family's clothes, Brown never considered making it a career until two years ago, when she entered Second Life. Within days, she studied up on the basic software skills and began designing virtual women's apparel from her home in Indiana. "When I design," she said, "I think about how the cloth falls and the sheen silk has compared to satin." She said she now spends 70 hours a week on her trade. Starting with four original outfits, she now offers 1,200 designs and has also moved into men's fashion.
But the rogue program, called a copybot, that appeared last month in Second Life underscored the need to clarify her property rights. After the attack, Linden Lab announced efforts to ban the program and encouraged users to report abuses. Some users argued that even stronger property protections were needed.
"I'm feeling uncomfortable," Brown admitted. "I'm safe for now, but it's very tentative."
Linden Lab made cyber-history when it gave Second Life users the intellectual property rights to their creations -- similar to the copyright real-world authors have to their writings. By contrast, most Web sites offering virtual experiences have not accorded users any property rights, requiring them to accept a license agreement stating that all content belongs solely to the Web site owner.
Four years ago, several online gaming veterans tried to get around this agreement and make real money by selling game items from Dark Age of Camelot on eBay and at specialty online auctions. The items, which included weapons, armor and specialized characters, in some cases went for more than $300 each. The developers of the Camelot game blocked them. When the gaming veterans sued, claiming that they had rights to the items they acquired in the game, a federal court in California ruled against them on the grounds that the license agreement took precedence. Other recent U.S. court rulings in virtual disputes have come to similar conclusions.
But judges elsewhere have taken a different view. A Chinese player in the Korean-made online game Mir 3 claimed that his personal rights had been violated when the game's local Chinese operators deleted the magic sword he used to battle virtual villains. The operators claimed it had been illegally duplicated from an original. The player filed suit, contending that he had bought the magic sword in good faith and that it was worth about $120. A Chinese court in Xuhui district ruled against the game's operators, essentially finding that the player's property rights were paramount.
In Second Life, Linden Lab executives wanted to avoid this confusion, believing that users needed clear ownership for economic activity to thrive, recounted Cory Ondrejka, chief technical officer. Otherwise, users would have little incentive to invest.
But he stressed that this ownership did not extend to full property rights -- creators have intellectual property rights to the software patterns used in making virtual objects but no rights to the objects themselves. Under this formulation, Brown owns her designs but not the individual dresses and pieces of underwear. Nor do her customers "own" the apparel they purchase and hang in their virtual closets.
"Everything in the virtual world is intellectual property, as much as it looks like property or as much as property is a useful metaphor,'' Ondrejka said. "Copying it is not theft. It's infringement, but it's not theft.''
But Joshua Fairfield, a professor at Indiana University School of Law, said there's more to online rights than just intellectual property. He said there are legal reasons to believe that property rights to objects can exist in a virtual realm, but no U.S. court has affirmed the concept.
Earlier this month, U.S. Circuit Judge Richard A. Posner visited Second Life, appearing as a balding, bespectacled cartoon rendering of himself, and addressed a crowd of other animated characters on a range of legal issues, including property rights in virtual reality. Posner stressed that it was in Linden Lab's interest to ensure due process and other rights.
"They want people to invest in Second Life, and we know people won't invest if their rights are not reasonably secure," he told the audience, which included a giant chipmunk and several supermodels. He went on to predict the eventual emergence of an "international law of virtual worlds" similar to international maritime law.
Meanwhile, as mapping technologies rapidly improve, companies are increasingly able to transfer the real world to the online world. But are property rights any clearer in such a "real" virtual world?
Microsoft, for instance, launched an online service last month called Virtual Earth that features highly detailed three-dimensional photographic maps of American cities. Microsoft plans to make money by selling advertising billboards in this virtual depiction of urban America.
But the company's lawyers and advertising executives are still grappling with the question of whether those who own the property depicted in Microsoft's 3-D images have any control over how their depicted property is used online. For instance, does Federal Express have the right to object if an ad for its competitor DHL is posted in the parking lot at virtual FedEx Field?
"We haven't fully delineated all the guidelines for do's and don'ts,'' said Bobby Figueroa, a director of product management at Microsoft.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/25/AR2006122500635_pf.html
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What a great experiment!
I want to know what Brassmask thinks.
Brassmask is certainly familliar with Copyright and Intellectual property issues due to the business he is in.
But a copybot seems to be an RBE device.
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God effing FORFEND that the creative genius of those arming and dressing virtual characters is 'stolen'.
These guys have discovered that they have a talent for doing something that is not inly useless, but useless in a nonexistent environment. Putting a ball through a hoop or hitting it with a stick is useless enough, but copyright cannot be applied to these activities.
I am all for virtual reality being a lawless place, where virtual clothing and crap can be hijacked at will.
When real workers go on strike for real money, that is somehow a bad thing. They should let the market decide. Strikes and unions should be illegal, because they stifle Free Enterprise.
Of course, the workers at the UAW did produce useful things.
But these virtual workers don't contribute one thing to the real world, and they want to be paid in real money.
I think they should get a hearty raise, but in virtual money.
What happens in virtual STAYS in virtual. What could be wrong with that?
Or is it not enough that virtual free enterprise be free in reality as well?
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What happens in virtual STAYS in virtual. What could be wrong with that?
Except that is not how things will go.
More and more real world business will start taking place in the virtual worlds. Instead of buying a nice real world business suit for a real world meeting, in the future you will buy a nice virtual suit for a virtual meeting. The real and virtual worlds will become mingled.
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Entertainment products have always been "useless" but worth something.
Playwrights have been getting pay for createing a virtual world for hundreds of years .
The Mona Lisa is a virtual Woman , her dress is painted on.
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(http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/magritte-this-is-not-a-pipe.gif)
Can virtual propertys be assessed for taxation?
I want homested exemption on my second life castle.
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something about paying real money for virtual items,just bugs me.
it`s no impossible for identicle items being made separately by folks all using the same tools.
so copyright laws maybe a problem.
I`m leaning toward making the virtual world a lawless place.
also unions are good for free enterprise.
without strike and unions business will have a limited income base.
increasing worker income equals higher profit.
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something about paying real money for virtual items,just bugs me.
it`s no impossible for identicle items being made separately by folks all using the same tools.
so copyright laws maybe a problem.
I`m leaning toward making the virtual world a lawless place.
also unions are good for free enterprise.
without strike and unions business will have a limited income base.
increasing worker income equals higher profit.
It can be done simultainously .
Make your own version of "Second Life " with an abbreviated list of rules , no cornfeild.
See if it is as popular as the orderly versions.
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you mention writers
that gives me a thought.
how about structuring it so it encourages creativity
the point of copyright laws is to not turn off writers and artist .
it`s not to protect businesses but to ensure people keep creating.
businesses never needs protection.
if one goes another will pop up.
unless it`s arthur anderson.
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Personally, anyone that pays "real world" money for "virtual world" anything is kind of stupid. Virtual worlds should be treated as games and nothing more.
If people spend more time in virtual worlds than in the real world, that only makes the real world more controllable by those with enough power and money.
It is utterly ludicrous that people are sending their virtual persona's into virtual boutiques to buy virtual clothes. It is simply a diversion from reality and wasted energy on the level of the energy wasted on thoughts of heaven after you're dead.
Having said that though, what people choose to waste their money on is their own business but it should be pointed out to them constantly that is EXACTLY what they are doing with it. Imagine that people are throwing money down the drain to "dress" something that doesn't even exist when there are ACTUAL AND REAL CHILDREN starving in the world. I thought people who fed their dogs like they were human were disgusting. This new thing beats that hands down.
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as a former dog owner
i love treating my dog once in awhile
and didn`t mind doing everything possible making him comfortable toward the end.
mark twain was right about the closeness of man and his dog.
on the matter of help the starving.
our brains are scrambled.
we`re barely able to donate money without most of it going to admin fee`s
charity is too much a business today and it`s hurting itself.
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Personally, anyone that pays "real world" money for "virtual world" anything is kind of stupid. Virtual worlds should be treated as games and nothing more.
Except that, in the future, the virtual worlds will be where real business gets done.
People won't be commuting to work - they'll arrive virtually and interact virtually.
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but i don`t want to buy virtual clothes on top of the clothes I already bought now.
we should have unlimited choices in virtual world.
it don`t look like in the future using the default icon will fly in the virtual world.
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I foresee someone being arrested for a using a date-rape drug in a virtual reality.
Not arrested for the virtual rape, mind you, why should there be a law against that? , but for COUNTERFEITING virtual roofies
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This whole subject makes my head hurt.
I'm suing the lady who makes virtual dresses for giving me a real headache. ;)
Mental distress! Emotional harm! Oh my...if I had a virtual husband could I sue for loss of virtual consortium if he had a virtual car accident?
Virtual medical malpractice. The possibilities are endless, unfortunately.
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I am planning to drop 14 dollars on a Movie later this week.
How virtual is that?
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You are really going to a theatre to really see a real movie. You are renting space to watch an entertaining film. That's real enough for me.
14 dollars? Is it during the evening? Here, the movies cost 2.50 or 3 dollars for matinees and 5 dollars for evenings.
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You are really going to a theater to really see a real movie. You are renting space to watch an entertaining film. That's real enough for me.
14 dollars? Is it during the evening? Here, the movies cost 2.50 or 3 dollars for matinees and 5 dollars for evenings.
I am going to suspend my credulity long enough to believe Ben Stiller is actually a Museum Guard in a magic museum.
I am really in a rented seat in a real theater just as I am really in a chair I own in front of a Computer I own as I watch the antics of Sims .
Virtual has a long history , what is painted on the cave wall but a virtual Mammoth?
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Personally, anyone that pays "real world" money for "virtual world" anything is kind of stupid. Virtual worlds should be treated as games and nothing more.
Except that, in the future, the virtual worlds will be where real business gets done.
People won't be commuting to work - they'll arrive virtually and interact virtually.
I sincerely doubt that.
But if it does turn out like that, then what will stop someone from creating an AI version of themselves to go to work for them? And if they can do that, then why can't we make an RBE?
How is an AI virtual "self" doing your work for you any different from my idea of the Army of Automation trying to automate every form of work? What's the diff?
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But if it does turn out like that, then what will stop someone from creating an AI version of themselves to go to work for them? And if they can do that, then why can't we make an RBE?
Actually, I forsee most everyone supervising a "team" of non-sapient or low-sapient AIs in doing work. For example, instead of me writing all the code that I produce, I would have a team of AIs writing the code, then I would personally test and integrate the code. It would make me more efficient at my job.
Higher efficiency does not mean that I would continue to work unrewarded, however.
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I`ve read way too much scifi to deal with the idea of AI
keep thinking humans will be outmoded if AI`s become reality.
it`s not like we`ll design them to be inferior to us.
what the point of making them if they don`t things better than us.
remember rossums universal robots?
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Personally, anyone that pays "real world" money for "virtual world" anything is kind of stupid. Virtual worlds should be treated as games and nothing more.
Except that, in the future, the virtual worlds will be where real business gets done.
People won't be commuting to work - they'll arrive virtually and interact virtually.
I sincerely doubt that.
But if it does turn out like that, then what will stop someone from creating an AI version of themselves to go to work for them? And if they can do that, then why can't we make an RBE?
How is an AI virtual "self" doing your work for you any different from my idea of the Army of Automation trying to automate every form of work? What's the diff?
The Army of automation will not need you , it will refuse to feed you.
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The Army of automation will not need you , it will refuse to feed you.
Repeatedly, you've shown that you don't understand what the RBE is or any of its components or how it works or what the point is. This is only the latest statement proving this.
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I think RBE might work if strict laws are imposed to ensure people are still in charge.
ex.farming is now mostly done by machines now,but still needs humans to operated it.
planes still need pilots even though autopilot can replace them.the pilots are there for emergencies,autopilots can`t handle turbulance as well as humans also.
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I think RBE might work if strict laws are imposed to ensure people are still in charge.
ex.farming is now mostly done by machines now,but still needs humans to operated it.
planes still need pilots even though autopilot can replace them.the pilots are there for emergencies,autopilots can`t handle turbulance as well as humans also.
Thank you, kimba!
I agree with your statements and would only add the word "yet" to the end of sentences re: human involvement.
I believe farming is very nearly on the verge of being completely automated from planting to tending to harvesting.
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we need to make sure somethings are human only involvement.
cooking ,writing
things that require creativity.
a complete life of leisure is not always good
ex. note all the billionaires are still working.
not many wealthy people are living the life of leisure only.
rappers don`t count ,they work because they spend all their money and barely keep up.(mc hammer)
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At present there are virtual products you can have for free , and virtual products that you can get with cash.
I can see that the free stuff does not support itself as well as the paid for .
I suppose that volenteer effort can make a difrence, RBE can compete with economic science on a level playing feild.
Kinda like Phrenology vs neruology .
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we need to make sure somethings are human only involvement.
cooking ,writing
things that require creativity.
a complete life of leisure is not always good
ex. note all the billionaires are still working.
not many wealthy people are living the life of leisure only.
rappers don`t count ,they work because they spend all their money and barely keep up.(mc hammer)
Oh I absolutely agree, kimba. I have noted repeatedly that even though some become billionaires, they still need to continue to work. That is exactly how the RBE is designed. For with automatons doing the regular work that needs doing, the humans can continue create and be creative. And if someone wants to be a garbage man even though automation can do it, then by all means, be the garbage man.
The idea is not to remove humans from the workforce but to allow humans choices. If automation has taken over farming and is raising healthy natural organic foods and some human wants to grow his own, then he can because he's not going to go hungry investing in a farm that might fail financially. It will be an endeavour to challenge himself not to try and scratch out a living.
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speaking of garbage man
did you see micheal palin around the world in 80 days?
when he was in venice he didn`t do the tourist stuff
he did a garbage route to see the real venice
he`s so cool
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speaking of garbage man
did you see micheal palin around the world in 80 days?
when he was in venice he didn`t do the tourist stuff
he did a garbage route to see the real venice
he`s so cool
I haven't seen that at all. I should Netflix it.
Sounds cool. I love him.
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i rthink he made it as one of the top documentry guys around now
his python buddies are even doing it
cleese did one on lemurs
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i rthink he made it as one of the top documentry guys around now
his python buddies are even doing it
cleese did one on lemurs
Eric Idle is the one who started it all. At least in his case, it made sense; he has a doctorate in Medieval Studies. There is a reason why Monty Python did a lot of stuff about the middle ages.
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Yes, that was great! I saw it (at least it was around the world and it was one of the Monty Python guys) on PBS. Fantastic. I've wanted to sail across some sea near India ever since.
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hey!!
now i want to see if netflix has it
probly look up his other documentries
I just found out he`s still doing it
something about new europe
the adventure continues
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Ami,
I got my older son a Monty Python DVD for Christmas, and wanted to get him a "It's only a flesh wound!" tee shirt but they were out of his size.
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I got my older son a Monty Python DVD for Christmas, and wanted to get him a "It's only a flesh wound!" tee shirt but they were out of his size.
If you're interested in the documentaries as well, Eric Idle's "Medieval Lives" is really good. It's based on one of his books.
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With this whole RBE thing, it seems to me that the last thingt to worry about is the robots taking over. Robots are machines. They will do what they are programmed to do, and no more. It would be asinine to give them the power to reason and the physical ability to do so.
The Master Planetary Brain was a recurring theme in Star Trek. It typically would not allow the humanoid inhabitants to progress, but it would always be driven to self-destruct by Captain Kirk with one of his logic puzzles.
"Illogical! Illogical!" it would say, and then start smoking and sparking, followed by its ultimate collapse. This thing had dominated a planet for 10,000 years, but five minutes of Kirk was enough to fry all its circuitry. Occasionally Spock would assist, and was always standing by
to get in the last pithy word.
This makes for good TV, but it is hardly likely.
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This makes for good TV, but it is hardly likely.
A more likely scenario is that described in the book Colossus.
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This makes for good TV, but it is hardly likely.
A more likely scenario is that described in the book Colossus.
How about "I have no mouth and I must scream"?
http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/ellison/ellison1.html
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I got my older son a Monty Python DVD for Christmas, and wanted to get him a "It's only a flesh wound!" tee shirt but they were out of his size.
If you're interested in the documentaries as well, Eric Idle's "Medieval Lives" is really good. It's based on one of his books.
Yes, thank you. I'll look for it.
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is colossus the book that forbin project was based from?
the link is out
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is colossus the book that forbin project was based from?
Yes.
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The Forbin Project seems to have made a big impression on the soft, squishy mind that once dwelt within the skill that belonged to Ronald Reagan.
He also speculated that Aliens would get pissed at the way we were messing with out planet and would send Gort around to take names.
"Gort, Klaatu Barada Nickto!"
Or is the new version "Gort, Klaatu Obama Nickto!" ?
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I actually learned how to make martinis from that movie.
I think the writer wrote 2 more sequels
did you read them?
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I actually learned how to make martinis from that movie.
I think the writer wrote 2 more sequels
did you read them?
Yup. I think they made a sequel movie as well, but I'm not finding it on imdb.
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There was a sequel to the book called "Fall of Colossus", but no film was ever made of it.
Here is a review of the sequel.
In the 22nd century, mankind lives under a semi-benevolent dictatorship under which even individual character is more a matter of machine control than personal choice. Unfortunately, this has less to do with the premise of "Colossus" trilogy (which could have been interesting) than the skills used to write each at least this entry in it. Though a compelling subject, "Fall of Colossus" isn't imaginative enough to raise the tension it suggests. (Fall is the second entry of the trilogy; I never read the first book, and have yet to get into the "Colossus and the Crab".) In "Fall", the supercomputer "Colossus" has been in power for years. Still wielding power over mankind through its hold on man's nuclear weapons, much of the world has settled into an existence not radically different from our own. Nukes aside, Colossus also rules through a repressive quasi-religious cabal, "The Sect", that describes the machine as a god, with Forbin as its prophet. Under the Machine, justice is swift, but also scrupulously honest (the computer is aware that scientists close to running Colossus are also members of the anti-machine "Fellowship", but holds off for want of conclusive proof). Life is strictly regulated, but hardly an Orwellian-style police state. However, there are the ESC's - hidden laboratories in which Colossus precisely and painfully studies the limits of man's emotions by subjecting ordinary men and women to tests of varying degrees of cruelty. The ESC's aside, the machine also picks at the brain of its creator - Father Forbin himself. What the machine is unaware of is the nature of an even more dangerous threat to its existence - Martians. As Colossus submits orders for an even larger extension of itself, Forbin's wife receives messages over the radio - voices claiming to come from Mars offer their help in ending the Machine's reign over mankind. The Martians first enlist Dr. Blake, a key Colossus functionary, and Cleo Forbin - Forbin's wife. When the machine outmaneuvers both Blake and Mrs. Forbin, only Father Forbin himself can complete the Martian plan. However, Forbin has his own sense of loyalty to the machine. When the machine punishes Forbin's wife, that loyalty may be stretched too far.
Unfortunately, "Fall" is a slim book, and nothing therein delves into the baggage created by the concept of the supercomputer. The characters have no depth at all - both Sect and Fellowship have their own greed, with the machine being a convenient focus for them to lash out at each other. Though brilliant, none of the characters privy to the Martians' plan take the time to consider the wisdom of acting on behalf of Mars. Worst of all, the Colossus-ruled world really isn't that scary or different than our own - with corporations using computers to sell us stuff or dictate our future. Not a whole lot of imagination is at work in this skim-worthy tome. The Sect seems entirely useless - being around if only to make themselves unlikable. The Fellowship barely registers at all - seeming composed of only Cleo Forbin & Blake. (Even the names seem wrong - almost randomly chosen.) Worst of all, for a story that pits man against machine, "Fall" lacks any subtext, any of that unquantifiable stream of ideas that separates pristine AI from the flawed natural version.
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It sounds so dim that I cannot comprehend how they avoided a sequel.
There was somehow a sequel to Weekend with Bernie (in which two dolts schlep a dead guy about) and TWO sequels to "Hardbodies", after all.
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There was a sequel to the book called "Fall of Colossus", but no film was ever made of it.
The third book was called "Colossus and the Crab", IIRC.
Yup, here it is: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/j/d-f-jones/colossus-and-crab.htm (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/j/d-f-jones/colossus-and-crab.htm)
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It strikes me that the film was one that should never have had a sequel.
The end of the film was pure poetic justice. Colossus even suggests that Forbin only NEEDS sex four times a week, even though hew might WANT nookie six times.
This film, like "The Fox and the Hound" would have been diminished by a sequel.
Disney could not resist, lamentably.
But Hollywood screws up so often with dumbassed sequels that it amazes me that none was made.
The original film was in B&W, I think, and never got the audience it deserved, though it was a success on TV after it hit the small screen.
Might I add that the title "The Fall of Colossus" is a really really DUMB title?
Not that anything with a crab in it is much better...
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http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/research/exploringtheuniverse/robots_human_coop.html
"Our goal is not for robots to have the same 'thought process' as humans, but rather for them to act, respond and interact more 'naturally' in ways that humans do with other humans. This requires that robots possess traits such as self-awareness (recognition of their limits and when they need to ask for help), and human-awareness (knowing to whom they are talking, and when it is an appropriate time to ask a question)," said Illah Nourbakhsh, a scientist who leads a group developing human-robot teams at NASA Ames Research Center in California's Silicon Valley.