Author Topic: we must first answer the question  (Read 2154 times)

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The_Professor

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we must first answer the question
« on: November 10, 2006, 09:47:29 PM »
comments are hereby solicited
As I have repeatedly said, we must first answer the question: are we a republic primarily concerned with our own affairs and defending our own borders, minding our own business and avoiding both entangling alliances and meddling in the territorial disputes of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East; or are we a world power with imperial interests?

This is not a trivial question. Republics cannot BE world powers, for the simple reason that republics are not capable of long term policies without victories and successes. We cannot sustain a trooper a day meatgrinder for a decade; much less thirty casualties a week, even though that is far fewer than we routinely lose to traffic. Yet that may well be the cost of a long term commitment overseas.

Our intervention in Iraq was not well done, but one reason it was not well done was domestic politics: the President could not simply say "It is in our interest to send in a punitive expedition, grab the oil, and destabilize that regime." Whether or not anyone believed it -- my friend Greg Cochran insists I am a naive fool for thinking anyone did -- the invasion was cloaked in the language of Jacobinism, and we went in and acted as if we believed in the Jacobin ideals. We did that because the very liberal elements in the nation, including those in the press, insisted that we must have more noble motives (or else it was all a criminal conspiracy). This nation doesn't react well to that kind of internal pressure. Republics need national unity to be able to pursue wars; and in fact, most republics are not comfortable with small wars, limited wars, wars of expediency: Republics expect and react best to WARRE. Over there. Make the world safe for democracy. Jacobinism can sometimes substitute: Jacobinism is noble, and fighting to implant democracy and spread freedom may bring national unity. Of course Jacobinism as a public goal makes it very difficult to pursue realistic foreign goals.

It is my belief that if we wish to become a world power with imperial interests we will inevitably be transformed into the kind of nation that can BE a world power with imperial interests. One of those transformations is willingness to put up with a great deal of failure without turning to criminalization of those failures. The recent muttering about prosecuting Rumsfeld comes to mind. Think about the consequences of those muttering, and what may come of it.

Now I note that a female general has decided to go to Germany to testify in a criminal charge against the Secretary of Defense. Think on the consequences of such things.

Enough on topical matters: my point is that we need to think carefully about what should be our role in the world. And we must decide fairly overwhelmingly: competent empires cannot spend a great deal of time catering to the Old Republic and its ideals. Cicero had no place in Caesar's new world order even though Caesar himself wished mightily that there would be. Mark Anthony and Octavian were made of sterner stuff.

If we decide that we are a world power with imperial interests, and we are willing to undergo the domestic transformations that will come from that, then this essay shows the kind of thinking we must indulge in; and this is a very important essay. He is not an inspired genius, he is merely a realist with a sense of history. He may be in error, but he is not in error in his fundamental ways of thinking.

Of course the fact that he says what I said about going into Iraq and what Israel ought to have done in the Lebanon may color my thinking...

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/mail439.html#Iran

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: we must first answer the question
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2006, 11:16:31 PM »
I vote we stay a democratic republic, cease and desist from trying to impose our system on anyone else, and publicaly renounce imperial ambitions of all types.

Otherwise we will have a lot of people who will have to die for creepoids like Cheney and will get persecuted for mentioning how such people are disgusting, obnoxious arrogant creepoids.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: we must first answer the question
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2006, 05:45:42 AM »
How does a semi-democratic Republic respond to the rapid growth of a rival?

Rome fought Carthage several times over several years , but was still mostly a Republic when it destroyed Carthage.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: we must first answer the question
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2006, 01:05:23 PM »
It was not necessary for Rome to destroy Carthage.

Comparisons of the US with the Roman Empire are absurd. The Romans were larcenous brigands and plunderers who felt that the future could be deduced by looking at chcken guts. We no longer live in this age, and the comparison is worthless.

The Roman Republic was run by a limited number of men of the aristocracy in its most democratic form. Iran today is must more democratic than this, and Juniorbush wants to destroy its government.

 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: we must first answer the question
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2006, 05:10:55 PM »
It was not necessary for Rome to destroy Carthage.

Comparisons of the US with the Roman Empire are absurd. The Romans were larcenous brigands and plunderers who felt that the future could be deduced by looking at chcken guts. We no longer live in this age, and the comparison is worthless.

The Roman Republic was run by a limited number of men of the aristocracy in its most democratic form. Iran today is must more democratic than this, and Juniorbush wants to destroy its government.

 


What makes the comparison absurd?
Though there are certainly lots of diffrences in the situation , there are also several simularities , if only the exact same situation may be used as comparison , does History become useless to us ?

The_Professor

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Re: we must first answer the question
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2006, 05:51:49 PM »
So, JS, I am most interested in an analysis from you, JS and my Libertarian friend, UP.   ???
« Last Edit: November 11, 2006, 07:57:26 PM by The_Professor »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: we must first answer the question
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2006, 07:15:38 PM »
There may be a few similiarities between the US and ancient Rome, but there are vastly more differences.

I am saying that the differences outnumber the similarities to such a degree that it is absurd to say that the US must become an empire because the Romans became an empire.

Obviously we can learn some things from history, but history does not repeat itself like the tracks on a CD, but like the images on a kaleideoscope, with some elements repeated and others not.

If you would like to discuss why the US should become an empire based on Roman history, go right ahead. But the US is very different from Rome, and Al Qaeda is vastly different from Al Qaeda or Iraq or any other Arab state with regard to the economy or anything else to such a degree that I suggest that comparisons are absurd.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: we must first answer the question
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2006, 12:50:29 AM »
I think that Osama Bin Laden has a lot in common with Hannibal.