Author Topic: Start the draft, or get out  (Read 14437 times)

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BT

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2007, 02:05:26 AM »
My pragmaticism is based on a best effort win or lose proposition. If my candidate loses so be it. If my candidate wins and doesn't turn out to be who i expected them to be i won't vote for them next time. But i do vote and i do accept the results of all the votes. I am pragmatic enough to realize i won't get my way all the time.

You seem to be the type that takes the ball home if they lose. Selfish.

Universe Prince

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2007, 03:23:23 AM »

My pragmaticism is based on a best effort win or lose proposition. If my candidate loses so be it. If my candidate wins and doesn't turn out to be who i expected them to be i won't vote for them next time. But i do vote and i do accept the results of all the votes. I am pragmatic enough to realize i won't get my way all the time.

You seem to be the type that takes the ball home if they lose. Selfish.


So now we're back to the stupid "you're just selfish" argument. I guess you really don't have a good argument to make. Huh.

No, I'm not a take the ball home if I lose type. I'm an understanding when the rules screw the individual type. This isn't about getting my way all the time. You seem to keep trying to make this about me. This isn't about me. Not once have you seen me complain that I don't like conscription because I might then have to serve in the military. You haven't even seen me say anything regarding what I think about serving in the military. Yet you keep trying to make this about me being selfish. And that isn't it. This is about conscription being an abridgment of individual liberty. Whatever the reason is that you cannot or will not accept that my objection might be bigger than my own personal life preferences, well, it's wrong and so are you.

So stop talking about me, frakking step up and discuss the issue already. If you favor conscription, then make your damn argument for it. Or is that too much to ask?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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BT

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2007, 03:44:20 AM »
I have already made my argument. I have been in favor of the draft for years, done by lottery,  no gender or fortunate son exemptions. You get a low number pack your bags.

I have never been in favor of an all volunteer military. I saw the transition. I think the military needs "temps" if for no other reason than to establish a closer connection to the people they defend. It's not a matter of aptitude or quality, it is a matter of mindset.


Universe Prince

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2007, 06:39:26 AM »

I have never been in favor of an all volunteer military. I saw the transition. I think the military needs "temps" if for no other reason than to establish a closer connection to the people they defend. It's not a matter of aptitude or quality, it is a matter of mindset.


What makes you think conscription did or would have that result?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2007, 06:54:27 AM »
The draft has some relevance if the nation is attacked by the military forces of some other power. The Al Qaeda attack of 9-11 does not apply here because (1) Al Qaeda is a rather puny non-governmental entity which cannot seize and/or hold US territory, and (2) could be effectively dealt with with the volunteer army and the police we already have. Iraq did not attack the US and was no threat to the territory or the people of the US. An army the size of Sweden's or Switzerland would be more than enough to remove any threat that Al Qaeda holds.

There will be no draft for the Iraq war because a majority of the people and Congress disapprove of both the war and the draft. The draft is involuntary servitude and should be used as the cops use guns, only as a last resort. The Iraw War is not any sort of last resort. It can't be resolved militarily, only diplomatically, but the current assortment of buffoons will never resolve it. We must wait for said buffoons to be ejected to write their memoirs and expire and be replaced by more competent people with adult supervision.

Rome was a civilization from the beginning dependent on slavery and brutal repression. I do not give a damn that Rome fell. I do not agree that the US should be an empire, not a military one, nor one that dominates other people and societies against their will. Rome was born decadent, oppressive and cruel. It fell because Christianity made slavery difficult and oppression impossible. The US is not surrounded by barbarian hordes, either. Analogies to Rome are just dumb.

Iraq should be ended. The Iraqis are the only ones who can decide who runs Iraq and US occupation is causing far more problems than it solves.

It is not the obligation of the citizenry to defend stupid policies of bungling, lying, thieving leaders, and their failed policies to loot foreign nations, loot the citizens by borrowing money in their name to hire mercenary goons like Blackwater, and to piss away their resources.



"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2007, 11:08:57 AM »
Quote
What makes you think conscription did or would have that result?

As i said i was in the service when the draft was winding down and the all volunteer military was cranking up.


_JS

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2007, 11:17:23 AM »
I have already made my argument. I have been in favor of the draft for years, done by lottery,  no gender or fortunate son exemptions. You get a low number pack your bags.

I have never been in favor of an all volunteer military. I saw the transition. I think the military needs "temps" if for no other reason than to establish a closer connection to the people they defend. It's not a matter of aptitude or quality, it is a matter of mindset.

Are you suggesting that conscription helps to form a national identity?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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   So stuff my nose with garlic
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BT

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2007, 11:39:41 AM »
Quote
Are you suggesting that conscription helps to form a national identity?

Nope . I am saying the reluctant bring a tempering to the military mindset, and not just to the enlisted ranks.

Universe Prince

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2007, 04:26:04 PM »

As i said i was in the service when the draft was winding down and the all volunteer military was cranking up.


Oh. Well, obviously then it must true.<--sarcasm Is that all you've got?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2007, 05:03:34 PM »

As i said i was in the service when the draft was winding down and the all volunteer military was cranking up.


Oh. Well, obviously then it must true.<--sarcasm Is that all you've got?

Um yeah. First hand participation usually trumps riding the bench.

What do you have?

and in case you missed it there is no sarcasm intended.


Plane

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2007, 05:18:53 PM »

Quote
So regardless of the society, you would feel obligated to defend it? Are you suggesting that society trumps the individual, that the individual exists to serve society, regardless of the individual's personal morals or will?

Reguardless of the society , th social order fnds some means of self defense elese it ceaces.


That doesn't answer any of the questions I asked.

Yes it does , it is needfull to a society to continue , all societys that have not continued are now gone. A society that assists individuals in the maintenience of their rights is a very good idea , but does it have to die young to do so?


Isn't Al Queda shrinking at a rate slightly greater than the rate we shoot them?


Is it? Last I heard the N.I.E. suggested that Al-Qaeda is not only growing but that the conflict in Iraq is a recruiting tool. Possibly things have changed, but I haven't seen anything to suggest it has.

  Where is anything that suggests that Al Queda is really growing? Are they attacking in greater strength ? Are they showing up where the were not before?  They were reduced a lot in Afganistan but to let them heal would be a mistake.

Universe Prince

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2007, 06:04:44 PM »

Um yeah. First hand participation usually trumps riding the bench.


Ignoring the implication there, I have to say I was hoping for an actual reasoned argument, not an "I was there so that proves it" comment. I guess I was expecting too much.


What do you have?


I have a reasoning mind that requires more than "because I said so" style comments to be persuaded. And quite frankly, if "i said i was in the service when the draft was winding down and the all volunteer military was cranking up" is the extent of your argument, then in this case you haven't got much.


and in case you missed it there is no sarcasm intended.


Yes, I do use sarcasm occasionally. If you don't like it, well, you're an adult, and I'm sure you'll get over it in time.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2007, 08:59:38 PM »
Quote
I have a reasoning mind that requires more than "because I said so" style comments to be persuaded.

Apparently your reasoning mind can not come up with any conclusions that would counter my first hand observations.

And i am not here to persuade you. I am here to state my opinion and consider the opinions of others.

Universe Prince

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2007, 10:54:31 PM »

Apparently your reasoning mind can not come up with any conclusions that would counter my first hand observations.


Actually, I did. I'll repeat what I said before because apparently you missed it. I have a reasoning mind that requires more than "because I said so" style comments to be persuaded. And quite frankly, if "i said i was in the service when the draft was winding down and the all volunteer military was cranking up" is the extent of your argument, then in this case you haven't got much.

Okay, you think conscription is good. I've explained reasons why I am against conscription, and your best counter is that you were there when the transition happened. Which amounts to saying "because I say so." I do understand that you're trying to pull the ol' "I know because I have experience" thing. It's all part of the self-aggrandizing casting of aspersions. So apparently, your opinion has no substance. This has all been, apparently, a pissing match for you. I'm not interested in that, and besides, you're already all wet.



And i am not here to persuade you. I am here to state my opinion and consider the opinions of others.


Then I will try in the future to avoid bothering you with discussion.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 11:04:39 PM by Universe Prince »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2007, 11:31:55 PM »
My further explanation to JS .

Quote
Nope . I am saying the reluctant bring a tempering to the military mindset, and not just to the enlisted ranks.

I guess you are against jury duty also.

Forced to show up to a place most have no desire to be, suffering a financial burden and facing legal sanctions if you fail to comply.