What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?

[Michael Tee]

<<Dunno. You have family close to the WTC on 9-11?>>

Nice try.  At the time, we had a daughter living in Brooklyn and working in mid-town Manhattan, who had had several breakfasts in the WTC and whose subway train just had passed through the WTC station on its way to Penn Station about ten minutes before the first plane hit.  We couldn't make contact with her until about 1:00 PM that day.  My first cousin's son worked in the financial district at the time, close to the WTC, and his building was evacuated; he had to walk back to his home on the Upper East Side and my cousins, who live in the Detroit area, couldn't contact him either.  My dad's first cousin's son also lived and worked on the Upper West Side, he has a wife and four or five kids, but we don't see them very much (we live in two different worlds) and I don't even know what their 9-11 stories are.  Our nephews' sister-in-law was evacuated from the 12th floor of Tower 2.  Our other daughter doesn't really count, since we had driven into Brooklyn two weeks before 9-11 to bring her back to Canada to continue her studies after four years spent studying and then working in downtown Manhattan.  But overall, yeah, we had (and still have) family close to the WTC and Ground Zero, and we worry about them, in addition to spending a lot of time there ourselves.  They use the airports, the bridges and the tunnels to get in and out of the City (as do my wife and I) and we like the security there, the more security the better in fact.  In some sense, we're all New Yorkers.

And now, answer me this:  where in my "raghead" posts, where in this thread, did I excoriate the "ragheads" whom I allegedly insulted, for bombing the WTC?  What did my posts, or this thread, have to do with the attack on the WTC or the risk to my family?  Who do I really blame for the WTC attacks, the bombers or the foreign policy of the American government?  Where in this thread was the WTC attack even mentioned?  Can you say, "grasping at straws?"   Can you say, "desperate?"

I

[hnumpah]

Dunno. You have family close to the WTC on 9-11? (thanks and a tip o' the hat to BT)

Actually, I don't really care what the reason was. You might actually be a racist SOB, or you might just be an insensitive, uncaring lout who thought it would be funny to refer to people that way to try to make a point. Either way, I have made my opinion of what you posted known, only to have you assume I was simply faking indignation at it. I never asked for an apology, and in your frantic efforts to defend your comment, I doubt one would do any good anyway; besides, it wasn't me you slurred, but good friends of mine. All you've really done to me is to decrease my estimation of you as a person.

And yes, I can say 'desperate'. Pretty much describes your attempts to justify your comment.

[Michael Tee]

<<Actually, I don't really care what the reason was. You might actually be a racist SOB, or you might just be an insensitive, uncaring lout who thought it would be funny to refer to people that way to try to make a point. >>

Or I might be speaking ironically to ridicule the racist assholes in charge of U.S. foreign policy or supporting them.  There's plenty of evidence to support the last possibility and none to support the first two.  When I slammed Japs or dead stormtroopers, I let everyone know why.  Nobody had to plough through the back issues to find out what my reasons were.

<<Either way, I have made my opinion of what you posted known, only to have you assume I was simply faking indignation at it. >>

I am sure you are.  Nothing you have said - - including your bullslhit efforts to sort through the "possible reasons" for a racist insult without even mentioning the most obvious explanation of the post - - indicates any genuine effort to understand the post for any purpose other than utilizing it as a launching pad for your fake outrage.

<<I never asked for an apology. . . >>

I offered it in general to anyone who was genuinely offended.

<< . . . and in your frantic efforts to defend your comment, I doubt one would do any good anyway;>>

Don't worry, it was offered to anyone dumb enough to take offence, not to anyone who takes pleasure in faking offence.

<< . . .  besides, it wasn't me you slurred, but good friends of mine. >>

Bullshit.  If you were in the military you would have heard that a hundred times a day.  For real, and not in irony.

<<All you've really done to me is to decrease my estimation of you as a person.>>

Well, since you're apparently too fucking dumb to recognize the irony, I'll take that for what it's worth.

[hnumpah]

I was in the Army from 74-80, and travelled quite a bit in the Middle East at the time. I was in the Middle East as a civilian contractor in the 90's.

When I was in the Army, making racist comments about Middle Easterners wasn't as fashionable as it has become since 9-11. Generally the people I served there with had considerable respect for the local populace.

You can believe what you want about whether my offense was factual or not. It was, though I have grown weary of your attempts to justify yourself. Though now you come very close to calling me a liar, and you'd better believe I do consider that a grave insult. You see, I'm one of those 'hillbillies' you disparage who takes honor rather seriously.

My opinion of you is still the same - you're an ass.

[hnumpah]

You might want to look here:

http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=6577.msg66507#msg66507


or here

http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=4930.msg46875#msg46875

I've mentioned my time in the service and as a contractor in the Middle East several times in this forum.

I've also mentioned I really don't take kindly to being called a liar.

[Michael Tee]

<<You can believe what you want about whether my offense was factual or not. It was, though I have grown weary of your attempts to justify yourself. Though now you come very close to calling me a liar, and you'd better believe I do consider that a grave insult. You see, I'm one of those 'hillbillies' you disparage who takes honor rather seriously.>>

Yeah, let's see if I got this right.  I post a comment containing the term "raghead" and explain that it was used ironically but you tell me in effect that I am full of shit.  You don't believe my explanation of my own words, even though you can't find a single instance where I berate the people I allegedly insult for any particular offence and in fact consistently defend them against any and all silly accusations levelled against them in this forum.  BT then digs up an earlier post of mine where it's even clearer that the intent was purely ironic, but of course this makes no difference at all.  Nevertheless, I am still a liar and a racist.

BUT, on the other hand, by calling your "outrage" fake, as it obviously is, I have "come very close" to calling you a liar.  YOU consider that a "grave insult."  YOU "take honour rather seriously."

Are you totally fucking nuts?  Do you think you are the only person on this board who resents being called a liar?  Fuck you and fuck your "honour."  You are the  one who insulted me, who called me a liar and a racist (falsely, but that goes without saying!)   I'm sorry I only "came very close" to calling you a liar.  Here's a real insult for you:  you can take your fucking honour and blow it out your ass!

<<My opinion of you is still the same - you're an ass.>>

Thanks and fuck you too.

[hnumpah]

...who called me a liar...

"Irony does not require the use of racial slurs or stereotypes. The point could have been made just as effectively calling them by their proper names, i.e., Iraqis, Arabs, Pakistanis, Indians - whichever group of people who wear such headwear you wish to refer to. So, no, I don't quite buy the 'irony' angle, either. After all, if I had used any of the so-called racist code words for a black man, you, with your anti-American and, specifically, anti-Southern bias, would have been all over it, regardless of what explanation I gave."

Not there.

"Next time you might find a way to say what you mean without resorting to racial or ethnic slurs."

Not there, either.

"It is racist, and I do take offense. I lived and worked among Arabs for quite some time, and made some very good friends among their people, some of whom I still keep in touch with. I took offense after 9-11 when it was popular to refer to them as ragheads, towelheads, camel jockeys and sand niggers, and I take offense with such terms now. My indignation is nowhere near 'fake', and I feel you are a complete ass for assuming such. Just so you know."

Or there.

"Dunno. You have family close to the WTC on 9-11? (thanks and a tip o' the hat to BT)

Actually, I don't really care what the reason was. You might actually be a racist SOB, or you might just be an insensitive, uncaring lout who thought it would be funny to refer to people that way to try to make a point. Either way, I have made my opinion of what you posted known, only to have you assume I was simply faking indignation at it. I never asked for an apology, and in your frantic efforts to defend your comment, I doubt one would do any good anyway; besides, it wasn't me you slurred, but good friends of mine. All you've really done to me is to decrease my estimation of you as a person.

And yes, I can say 'desperate'. Pretty much describes your attempts to justify your comment."

Certainly not there.

"I was in the Army from 74-80, and travelled quite a bit in the Middle East at the time. I was in the Middle East as a civilian contractor in the 90's.

When I was in the Army, making racist comments about Middle Easterners wasn't as fashionable as it has become since 9-11. Generally the people I served there with had considerable respect for the local populace.

You can believe what you want about whether my offense was factual or not. It was, though I have grown weary of your attempts to justify yourself. Though now you come very close to calling me a liar, and you'd better believe I do consider that a grave insult. You see, I'm one of those 'hillbillies' you disparage who takes honor rather seriously.

My opinion of you is still the same - you're an ass."

There either.

"You might want to look here:

http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=6577.msg66507#msg66507


or here

http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=4930.msg46875#msg46875

I've mentioned my time in the service and as a contractor in the Middle East several times in this forum.

I've also mentioned I really don't take kindly to being called a liar."

Hmmmm, no mention of you being a liar anywhere. I've explained my objection to the term used, and my reasons for that objection. Nowhere do I see where I have come even close to calling you a liar. Maybe you can point that out to me.

I'm trying very hard to think of an insult to your 'honour', but since you don't have any, it's pretty difficult.

[Michael Tee]

I've said my last word on the subject.  I read through your last pathetic bullshit and it's not worth a reply.  There is nothing there that hasn't been gone over at least twice.  You can take your fucking insults and shove them up your fucking ass, there isn't one of them that deserves a response.  I stand by every word I wrote.

[hnumpah]

And I stand by mine.

Except that now I can call you a liar, for accusing me of calling you a liar when I hadn't.

But I won't, though. We both know the truth, don't we? 

[Plane]

That's hilarious.  If you were in the U.S. military at the time, your indignation must have been set off several times a second, like cameras flashing at a rock star's public appearance.

I was in the Navy and visited several Middle Eastern Countrys in the early Eightys . I think that your idea of American Military attitudes is supplied by your imagination.

Command level hates offending locals with a passion you wouldn't understand without knowing how badly their carreer is affected by bad behaviors on their watch , and how much they love their carreers.

NCO's do not like leaveing their charges in foreighn jails , also they like their stripes and make it plain that they would prefer you to loose yours than to loose their own.

I received a breifing with the rest of the crew before pulling into any port where we would be allowed liberty, we learned not to show the soles of our shoes to people , not to pat children on the head or complement them not to show up drunk in an Islamic country etc. etc etc... it was made very plain how much we would be disaplined , supposeing that the locals did not jail us themselves.

[Michael Tee]

plane, we're really talking about apples and oranges.  You're talking about how U.S. servicemen interact directly with the locals.  I was talking about what servicemen say to one another about the locals.

Even taking the problem on your terms, it looks like efforts to avoid pissing off the locals aren't always successful, to say the least.

This and many other articles found simply by Googling "American servicemen rapes" are kind of interesting:
http://nhatkyviet.com/2008/05/05/american-serviceman-arrested-for-squeezing-aomori-prefecture-teens-breasts/

There were plenty of articles, one on the brutal beating and rape of a 14-year-old schoolgirl on Okinawa by three U.S. Marines, others on the rape and murder of a 14 year old Iraqi girl (U.S. forces sure like 'em young, don't they?) by a whole squad of U.S. Marines.  The girl's family was also murdered along with her.  The sentences are truly farcical - - the lookout got "110 years" in a court martial, eligible for parole in ten years.  110 years for rape and murder, but we'll let you out in ten if you're good and no one's looking.  Hilarious.  I'll be amazed if the punk serves five.  They must think they're fooling someone with those "110 year" sentences, but honestly, who in the world is that dumb? 

[dralec]

Can some one please define "winning?"  Yeah. like Iraq is a peaceful place where kids can play outside without being blown up by homicidal religious fanatic.  There is still no stable government, infrastructure is still shit. And where is the freaking oil W promised.  Dammit, you invade a country and all you get is expensive gas.

[Plane]

Can some one please define "winning?"  Yeah. like Iraq is a peaceful place where kids can play outside without being blown up by homicidal religious fanatic.  There is still no stable government, infrastructure is still shit. And where is the freaking oil W promised.  Dammit, you invade a country and all you get is expensive gas.

When did he make that promise?

[Plane]

plane, we're really talking about apples and oranges.&nbsp; You're talking about how U.S. servicemen interact directly with the locals.&nbsp; I was talking about what servicemen say to one another about the locals.

Even taking the problem on your terms, it looks like efforts to avoid pissing off the locals aren't always successful, to say the least.

This and many other articles found simply by Googling "American servicemen rapes" are kind of interesting:
http://nhatkyviet.com/2008/05/05/american-serviceman-arrested-for-squeezing-aomori-prefecture-teens-breasts/

There were plenty of articles, one on the brutal beating and rape of a 14-year-old schoolgirl on Okinawa by three U.S. Marines, others on the rape and murder of a 14 year old Iraqi girl (U.S. forces sure like 'em young, don't they?) by a whole squad of U.S. Marines.&nbsp; The girl's family was also murdered along with her.&nbsp; The sentences are truly farcical - - the lookout got "110 years" in a court martial, eligible for parole in ten years.&nbsp; 110 years for rape and murder, but we'll let you out in ten if you're good and no one's looking.&nbsp; Hilarious.&nbsp; I'll be amazed if the punk serves five.&nbsp; They must think they're fooling someone with those "110 year" sentences, but honestly, who in the world is that dumb?&nbsp;

I know about several incidents like you are mentioning here , I also know that they happen at a rate lower than in the generl population .

Is it compareing Apples to Oranges to compare American troops overseas to UN troops in Africa?

[Xavier_Onassis]

I know about several incidents like you are mentioning here , I also know that they happen at a rate lower than in the generl population .
=====================================
I bet if we sent an assortment of the general population (especially male members of it) to Iraq, they would try to steal rape and plunder more, but would be far less agile with their weapons, if we armed them.

When some guy in Atlanta rapes some woman in Atlanta, it does not cause an international incident, nor does it reflect poorly on his employers in most cases. That would be comparig apples and oranges.

Comparing US troops in Iraq with African troops in Africa would be like, well, comparing US troops in Iraq with African troops in Africa. The US would not be blamed if a Nigerian soldier rapes a Congolese woman. That would be a rather important difference from an American's viewpoint, I think.