DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Religious Dick on December 30, 2009, 06:38:30 AM

Title: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Religious Dick on December 30, 2009, 06:38:30 AM

Berkeley High May Cut Out Science Labs
The proposal would trade labs seen as benefiting white students for resources to help struggling students.
By Eric Klein
Berkeley High School is considering a controversial proposal to eliminate science labs and the five science teachers who teach them to free up more resources to help struggling students.

The proposal to put the science-lab cuts on the table was approved recently by Berkeley High's School Governance Council, a body of teachers, parents, and students who oversee a plan to change the structure of the high school to address Berkeley's dismal racial achievement gap, where white students are doing far better than the state average while black and Latino students are doing worse.

Paul Gibson, an alternate parent representative on the School Governance Council, said that information presented at council meetings suggests that the science labs were largely classes for white students. He said the decision to consider cutting the labs in order to redirect resources to underperforming students was virtually unanimous.

Science teachers were understandably horrified by the proposal. "The majority of the science department believes that this major policy decision affecting the entire student body, the faculty, and the community has been made without any notification, without a hearing," said Mardi Sicular-Mertens, the senior member of Berkeley High School's science department, at last week's school board meeting.

Sincular-Mertens, who has taught science at BHS for 24 years, said the possible cuts will impact her black students as well. She says there are twelve African-American males in her AP classes and that her four environmental science classes are 17.5 percent African American and 13.9 percent Latino. "As teachers, we are greatly saddened at the thought of losing the opportunity to help all of our students master the skills they need to find satisfaction and success in their education," she told the board.

The full plan to close the racial achievement gap by altering the structure of the high school is known as the High School Redesign. It will come before the Berkeley School Board as an information item at its January 13 meeting. Generally, such agenda items are passed without debate, but if the school board chooses to play a more direct role in the High School Redesign, it could bring the item back as an action item at a future meeting.

School district spokesman Mark Coplan directed inquiries about the redesign to Richard Ng, the principal's assistant at Berkeley High and member of the School Governance Council. Ng did not return repeated calls for comment.

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/ebx/berkeley-high-may-cut-out-science-labs/Content?oid=1536705 (http://www.eastbayexpress.com/ebx/berkeley-high-may-cut-out-science-labs/Content?oid=1536705)

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Michael Tee on December 30, 2009, 12:16:49 PM

The ideal solution to the problem is to raise the local rates so that the school board has the money to keep the science labs AND acquire the resources needed to bring black and Latino students up to speed.

Since the "conservatives" would squeal like stuck pigs at any such suggestion, while eager and anxious to spend thousands of times more Federal dollars on such worthwhile projects as maiming and butchering thousands of poor dumb fucking Arabs, I guess the next best solution is exactly what is being proposed, cut the science labs, definitely a frill, and concentrate resources on the students most in need.

I enjoyed biology, chem and physics labs in high school.  They were a welcome break from the didactic routines that constituted most of the school week, but the labs never taught us any scientific principle we didn't already know.  They merely enabled us to confirm what we had already been taught.  Whether I took the labs or didn't, my marks would have been the same, because the net accrual to my scientific knowledge based on the labs was nil.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 30, 2009, 12:22:57 PM

Then you were using the labs incorrectly.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Universe Prince on December 30, 2009, 01:02:51 PM

Quote from: Michael Tee on December 30, 2009, 12:16:49 PM

The ideal solution to the problem is to raise the local rates

Bzzz. No, but thank you for playing. Were I a betting man, I'd lay good odds the school already has the resources necessary to give extra help to the non-white students. In any case trying to punish others for the school's problems is never going to be the ideal solution, whether that means getting rid of science labs or raising tax rates.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 30, 2009, 01:12:49 PM

Berkeley High School spends $6,375 per student currently (source (http://www.stateuniversity.com/elmsed/CA/Berkeley-High-School-Berkeley.html)).

Geoffrey Canada runs the Harlem Children's Zone (http://www.hcz.org/) and spends about $5,000 per student per year and his mostly minority students equal or outperform whites in neighboring areas in many tests.

Here's an article about it: Harlem's Education Experiment Gone Right (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/04/60minutes/main5889558.shtml)

The amount of money they throw at it is not as important as how that money is used.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: sirs on December 30, 2009, 01:16:20 PM

Quote from: Amianthus on December 30, 2009, 01:12:49 PM

The amount of money they throw at it is not as important as how that money is used.

BINGO  !!!

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 30, 2009, 03:36:16 PM

uhm
I don`t understand how science lab is only helpful to white students.
is the lab whites only?

isn`t the real question ,why non-white student are not using the lab?

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 30, 2009, 03:46:09 PM

Quote from: kimba1 on December 30, 2009, 03:36:16 PM

isn`t the real question ,why non-white student are not using the lab?

I'm guessing that hardly any non-whites sign up for advanced sciences, so the labs tend to be used only by the whites.

Time to punish 'em for being white...

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 30, 2009, 05:14:16 PM

so asking why non-white students are not saigning for science lad is crazy talk

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Michael Tee on December 30, 2009, 06:04:31 PM

<<None of this comes cheap, however: the Children's Zone annual budget is $76 million, two thirds of which comes from the private sector, and much of that from Wall Street. It comes to about $5,000 per child per year.>>

At $5,000 per child per year, $76 million serves 15,200 children.  Yet the article says that 1,2000 kids attend Canada's school.  If 1,200 kids is the correct figure, the annual budget comes to a whopping $63,333.33 per student - - roughly THREE TIMES the cost of sending the kid to an elite Manhattan private school.

$76 million in corporate "donations" means that the real cost is $76 million plus the corporate taxes that would otherwise have gone into the federal treasury had the corporations not made their "donations."  Furthermore, you have to wonder what additional bargains the school is able to pick up along the way.  If major financial institutions are funding this thing, I'm sure that whoever is supplying the school is feeling the pressure to supply at cost, or cost plus only half the normal mark-up.

I am beginning to smell one gigantic fraud here.  The scores, "outperforming the nearest white schools" for example.  My grandson in Manhattan has a choice of FOUR public elementary schools that he can attend as his "neighbourhood" school.  (Here in Toronto each kid has only one public elementary school he or she can attend - - it's based on a zone map and the location of the kid's residence in one of the zones on the map.)  Apparently not all Manhattan public elementary schools are on the same level of performance.  There is plenty of leeway for Canada to cherry-pick the schools he wants to compare his outcomes with.

I found a disturbing lack of detail in the article, a lack of specifics (HOW are they achieving these so-called phenomenal outcomes, and what would prevent the neighbourhood public schools from adopting the same measures.?)  The threats to fire teachers whose kids don't get into college seems little more than empty bombast - - the day of judgment is far off in the distant future, and the firings would undoubtedly keep this school tied up in lawsuits for the rest of its natural life.

Furthermore, the ratio was given of six "adults" (sic) per student - - not six teachers, but only six "adults."  That, combined with the longer hours and extra classroom days, indicates to me a kind of union-busting agenda here, which may be one of the real reasons why Wall Street is so generously funding this project.  At this point, we don't have any idea at all of the actual teacher:student ratio at Canada's school.

The article was in fact very disturbing - - the lack of real detail, the charismatic leader, the extravagant but totally undocumented claims of success.  I hate to say it but this whole story has FRAUD written all over it.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 30, 2009, 06:12:47 PM

Quote from: Michael Tee on December 30, 2009, 06:04:31 PM

I hate to say it but this whole story has FRAUD written all over it.

CBS News has been following the story for 4 years, as has the Economics Dept of Harvard University, and you're so much smarter than them that you spotted the fraud right off.

Good for you. Surprised you didn't use the "Uncle Tom" epithet, since Canada is black.

Forgive me if I think that those guys know more about it than you.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 30, 2009, 06:21:01 PM

Quote from: Michael Tee on December 30, 2009, 06:04:31 PM

At $5,000 per child per year, $76 million serves 15,200 children.  Yet the article says that 1,2000 kids attend Canada's school.  If 1,200 kids is the correct figure, the annual budget comes to a whopping $63,333.33 per student - - roughly THREE TIMES the cost of sending the kid to an elite Manhattan private school.

And perhaps you should read the story for comprehension instead of just trying to pick apart the numbers. It clearly says that 1,200 students are enrolled in the school, but that he provides services (help with studying, after school labs, medical clinics, classes for the parents, pre-k instruction, etc) for EVERY child in the zone, even those that go to public schools. The $76 million serves ALL of the children, not just those in his school. And the test scores for the children not even attending his school are higher than those in surrounding zones.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: sirs on December 30, 2009, 06:42:05 PM

ouch.  That had to sting a bit

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 30, 2009, 06:45:42 PM

but why science?

I`m pretty sure the school has a alot of non-require classes that could be dumped.

I think foriegn language is one of them

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 30, 2009, 06:47:59 PM

opps
wrote it wrong ,i meant cut those classes to puff up science courses to help non-white students to catch up in science.

my bad

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 30, 2009, 06:48:24 PM

The Harlem Miracle

By DAVID BROOKS
Published: May 7, 2009

---

The fight against poverty produces great programs but disappointing results. You go visit an inner-city school, job-training program or community youth center and you meet incredible people doing wonderful things. Then you look at the results from the serious evaluations and you find that these inspiring places are only producing incremental gains.

That's why I was startled when I received an e-mail message from Roland Fryer, a meticulous Harvard economist. It included this sentence: "The attached study has changed my life as a scientist."

Fryer and his colleague Will Dobbie have just finished a rigorous assessment of the charter schools operated by the Harlem Children's Zone. They compared students in these schools to students in New York City as a whole and to comparable students who entered the lottery to get into the Harlem Children's Zone schools, but weren't selected.

They found that the Harlem Children's Zone schools produced "enormous" gains. The typical student entered the charter middle school, Promise Academy, in sixth grade and scored in the 39th percentile among New York City students in math. By the eighth grade, the typical student in the school was in the 74th percentile. The typical student entered the school scoring in the 39th percentile in English Language Arts (verbal ability). By eighth grade, the typical student was in the 53rd percentile.

Forgive some academic jargon, but the most common education reform ideas - reducing class size, raising teacher pay, enrolling kids in Head Start - produce gains of about 0.1 or 0.2 or 0.3 standard deviations. If you study policy, those are the sorts of improvements you live with every day. Promise Academy produced gains of 1.3 and 1.4 standard deviations. That's off the charts. In math, Promise Academy eliminated the achievement gap between its black students and the city average for white students.

Let me repeat that. It eliminated the black-white achievement gap. "The results changed my life as a researcher because I am no longer interested in marginal changes," Fryer wrote in a subsequent e-mail. What Geoffrey Canada, Harlem Children's Zone's founder and president, has done is "the equivalent of curing cancer for these kids. It's amazing. It should be celebrated. But it almost doesn't matter if we stop there. We don't have a way to replicate his cure, and we need one since so many of our kids are dying - literally and figuratively."

These results are powerful evidence in a long-running debate. Some experts, mostly surrounding the education establishment, argue that schools alone can't produce big changes. The problems are in society, and you have to work on broader issues like economic inequality. Reformers, on the other hand, have argued that school-based approaches can produce big results. The Harlem Children's Zone results suggest the reformers are right. The Promise Academy does provide health and psychological services, but it helps kids who aren't even involved in the other programs the organization offers.

To my mind, the results also vindicate an emerging model for low-income students. Over the past decade, dozens of charter and independent schools, like Promise Academy, have become no excuses schools. The basic theory is that middle-class kids enter adolescence with certain working models in their heads: what I can achieve; how to control impulses; how to work hard. Many kids from poorer, disorganized homes don't have these internalized models. The schools create a disciplined, orderly and demanding counterculture to inculcate middle-class values.

To understand the culture in these schools, I'd recommend "Whatever It Takes," a gripping account of Harlem Children's Zone by my Times colleague Paul Tough, and "Sweating the Small Stuff," a superb survey of these sorts of schools by David Whitman.

Basically, the no excuses schools pay meticulous attention to behavior and attitudes. They teach students how to look at the person who is talking, how to shake hands. These schools are academically rigorous and college-focused. Promise Academy students who are performing below grade level spent twice as much time in school as other students in New York City. Students who are performing at grade level spend 50 percent more time in school.

They also smash the normal bureaucratic strictures that bind leaders in regular schools. Promise Academy went through a tumultuous period as Canada searched for the right teachers. Nearly half of the teachers did not return for the 2005-2006 school year. A third didn't return for the 2006-2007 year. Assessments are rigorous. Standardized tests are woven into the fabric of school life.

The approach works. Ever since welfare reform, we have had success with intrusive government programs that combine paternalistic leadership, sufficient funding and a ferocious commitment to traditional, middle-class values. We may have found a remedy for the achievement gap. Which city is going to take up the challenge? Omaha? Chicago? Yours?

---

Original Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/opinion/08brooks.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=harlem%20miracle&st=cse)

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 30, 2009, 07:01:18 PM

And Mikey is too smart to be fooled like this dummy:

"This is the home of the Harlem Children's Zone - an all-encompassing, all-hands-on-deck anti-poverty effort that is literally saving a generation of children in a neighborhood where they were never supposed to have a chance.

"The philosophy behind the project is simple - if poverty is a disease that infects an entire community in the form of unemployment and violence; failing schools and broken homes, then we can't just treat those symptoms in isolation. We have to heal that entire community. And we have to focus on what actually works.

"If you're a child who's born in the Harlem Children's Zone, you start life differently than other inner-city children. Your parents probably went to what they call " Baby College", a place where they received counseling on how to care for newborns and what to expect in those first months. You start school right away, because there's early childhood education. When your parents are at work, you have a safe place to play and learn, because there's child care, and after school programs, even in the summer. There are innovative charter schools to attend. There's free medical services that offer care when you're sick and preventive services to stay healthy. There's affordable, good food available so you're not malnourished. There are job counselors and financial counselors. There's technology training and crime prevention.

"You don't just sign up for this program; you're actively recruited for it, because the idea is that if everyone is involved, and no one slips through the cracks, then you really can change an entire community. Geoffrey Canada, the program's inspirational, innovative founder, put it best - instead of helping some kids beat the odds, the Harlem Children's Zone is actually changing the odds altogether.

"And it's working. Parents in Harlem are actually reading more to their children. Their kids are staying in school and passing statewide tests at higher rates than other children in New York City. They're going to college in a place where it was once unheard of. They've even placed third at a national chess championship.

"So we know this works. And if we know it works, there's no reason this program should stop at the end of those blocks in Harlem. It's time to change the odds for neighborhoods all across America. And that's why when I'm President, the first part of my plan to combat urban poverty will be to replicate the Harlem Children's Zone in twenty cities across the country. We'll train staff, we'll have them draw up detailed plans with attainable goals, and the federal government will provide half of the funding for each city, with the rest coming from philanthropies and businesses."
http://www.barackobama.com/2007/07/18/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_19.php (http://www.barackobama.com/2007/07/18/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_19.php)

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 30, 2009, 07:21:17 PM

too bad oprah skip this and went to africa for her school.

lots of people with deep pockets have tried to help these areas and failed.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Michael Tee on December 30, 2009, 07:24:19 PM

Well, they're certainly making all the right noises. The community-wide approach, the integration of medical, financial, parenting, etc. issues into the educational process . . .

I wish 'em all the best, and I sincerely hope my first assessment was hasty and wrong.  I especially like that there are so many "nanny" aspects to the program, calculated to enrage the hard right - - the free medical programs, the active recruitment of locals into parenting and neonatal care classes, etc.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 30, 2009, 07:38:49 PM

if you think about it`s a radical form of a no excuse education system

meaning no excuse by actually elliminating the excuses.

the previous form of no excuse was by the less costly version of just telling kids no excuse and raising the bar
for some reason that one had less positive results.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 30, 2009, 09:24:06 PM

Quote from: Michael Tee on December 30, 2009, 07:24:19 PM

I especially like that there are so many "nanny" aspects to the program, calculated to enrage the hard right - - the free medical programs, the active recruitment of locals into parenting and neonatal care classes, etc.

The hard right doesn't have a problem with those - only when they're forced on people by the government do they have a problem with it. This program is all voluntary.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: sirs on December 30, 2009, 10:37:06 PM

Precisely

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: BSB on December 30, 2009, 11:45:00 PM

Good reading Ami.

I like David Brooks, my kind of Republican.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 31, 2009, 12:09:10 AM

Different students have different learning styles: some people will learn all they need to know by reading the textbook, others learn better with a hands-on experience, like a science lab. Like MT, I never learned anything in the lab that was not revealed in the textbook, but then again,. I read the textbook, which most of my classmates did not do. The observation of HOW chemical reactions take place and the actual dissection of the frog and (ugh) the decaying chinchillas supplied information that the textbook could not show, so it was certainly worth the bother.

I would be opposed to removing any classes from the curriculum, really. The least useful classes I took in HS were PE (where the jocks got all the attention and we just sat and watched) and Geometry, (where we "discovered" the various volume equations for different shapes). I am sure both classes could have been far more interesting and useful had they been taught with more creativity.

There was a schoolboard member who had a chinchilla "ranch" (actually a barn filled with cages that reeked of ammonia). After he skinned the varmints, he froze them and donated them to the biology class. The school had no refrigeration facilities in the lab, and the cafeteria would not permit the deceased rodents in their walk-in freezers, so they reeked by the fifth period. I noticed this less than many of the other students: several girls were provoked to vomit by the smell.

But we did learn what a chinchilla spleen looked like and were greatly impressed by the length of the intestines. Still, I was unaware that rodents were copraphragic until many years later when we got my daughter a pet bunny.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 31, 2009, 12:20:27 AM

Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on December 31, 2009, 12:09:10 AM

Like MT, I never learned anything in the lab that was not revealed in the textbook, but then again,. I read the textbook, which most of my classmates did not do.

The purpose of the lab is go beyond what you learn from the textbook.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Michael Tee on December 31, 2009, 12:42:37 AM

<<The purpose of the lab is go beyond what you learn from the textbook.>>

Nonsense.  I don't recall the entire format of the write-up, but at the start of every chem or physics experiment, we had to write five basic data at the head of the lab report:  Purpose of the experiment, equipment to be used, procedure to be followed and I think two other data.  "Purpose of the Experiment" gave the whole thing away - - you knew what you were out to prove.  If it was a principle of chemistry, it had already been gone over in the classroom or was explained somewhere in the text.  Sometimes the purpose was to measure the quantity of compound produced by a specific chemical reaction; in some cases we already knew the formula to calculate the outcome and the experiment was just to bear out the formula or test our skills in measuring, weighing and generally following instructions so as to achieve the predicted or predictable result.

Never once did we "go beyond" the textbook in the lab, i.e., learn new scientific principles not already covered in the text or the classroom.  We were there to learn the basics, not to win any Nobel Prizes or discover new elements.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 31, 2009, 11:05:51 AM

Quote from: Michael Tee on December 31, 2009, 12:42:37 AM

Never once did we "go beyond" the textbook in the lab, i.e., learn new scientific principles not already covered in the text or the classroom.  We were there to learn the basics, not to win any Nobel Prizes or discover new elements.

Guess I had a different type of teacher, then. We were encouraged to do "what if" scenarios, exploring different ways of doing things. Most of us finished all of the lab work in the workbooks in the first half of the semester, and the balance was spent learning new things that weren't typically covered in either the textbook or the lab workbook. We did a lot of "what would be a different way to approach this problem" type of things in our labs.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 31, 2009, 11:13:53 AM

I always thought lab is a retention tool.
reading something from a book is alot harder to remember than something hands on.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 31, 2009, 12:01:49 PM

Quote from: Michael Tee on December 31, 2009, 12:42:37 AM

We were there to learn the basics, not to win any Nobel Prizes or discover new elements.

"Turner spent her time looking at DNA from children with congenital heart disease (CHD); in simple terms, a hole in the heart. 'If we can tell that the baby is going to be born with CHD, hopefully we can get them care faster and eventually as science grows we can actually fix the problem before the baby is born,' explained Turner.

"Out of a hundred samples, Turner found four mutations. Quite a find for any scientist, but for a high school student... well, even her mentor was blown away. 'I was really nervous because I saw one and I wasn't sure if I was right,' said Turner. 'And so I went to her [mentor] and I said I think I found one. She came over to the computer and said, yes, you really did.' "
Young Texas Student Makes Heart Disease Discovery (http://wcbstv.com/health/Seagoville.Candace.Turner.2.1005405.html)

"Ah-Seng is investigating the impact of monosodium glutamate, a food additive commonly known as MSG, on brain cells. Her research measures how exposure to MSG affects how brain cells grow, and how they communicate with each other. Studies around the world have explored the health risks of MSG, and its relationship to retinal degeneration, obesity, brain lesions and degenerative disorders such as Alzheimer?s and ALS.

" 'This work that Michelle is doing is quite remarkable. Her findings are worthy of publication in a scientific journal," says Naweed Syed, PhD, professor and head, cell biology and anatomy, University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine. 'Heritage has planted the seeds with Michelle. She has had the taste of discovery, and she has created something that will live on in our lab.'

Syed has invited Ah-Seng to return to his lab next summer and continue her research. Ah-Seng is heading into Grade 12 at Cochrane High School where she has already completed Biology 30. 'I love to present students with opportunities, and watch them fly,' says Stephanie Bennett, a science teacher from Cochrane High School. 'Students like Michelle have so much to offer. They believe that anything is possible.' "
Local high school student investigates MSG's impact on the brain (http://medicine.ucalgary.ca/about/msgstudy)

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 31, 2009, 01:25:48 PM

A good example, although quite rare, and done by analyzing data, not by performing lab experiments.

What you are supposed to get out of a science lab experiment is visual and experiential confirmation and evidence of what is taught by the textbook. Or at least, that is the way I understand it. The incident mentioned by Ami is a rare exception of an exceptional student going beyond the norm. A good thing, but also rare. Hence the mention in the press.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Michael Tee on December 31, 2009, 01:46:57 PM

I think there's a generational gap between Ami and I.  It may well be that radical changes were made in high school science teaching, including the lab work, between the 1950s, when I was in HS, and the 1960s or 1970s.

I stand by what I say - - and I don't think for a minute we had bad teachers, our high school was the best public high school in the city, and a student in my senior year there won the Prince of Wales award, given to the student with the highest Grade XIII average in the entire Province. 

After Sputnik went up, there was an all-out movement to improve science and math teaching in all North American schools, and I think Ami was probably one of the beneficiaries of the post-Sputnik reforms.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 31, 2009, 01:48:04 PM

Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on December 31, 2009, 01:25:48 PM

A good example, although quite rare, and done by analyzing data, not by performing lab experiments.

It's been a long time since you've been in a lab, I have to assume. Almost all lab equipment is automated and connected to computers for analysis nowadays. And many high schools are even scheduling time for doing "remote" experiments with equipment that is too expensive for the high school to own - with the experiments being controlled over the Internet by the students. Many large companies (especially pharmaceutical companies) and hospitals loan out their lab equipment in this way on a time share basis for education. Students can even schedule time on lab equipment in the space station in this manner.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 31, 2009, 01:52:26 PM

Quote from: Michael Tee on December 31, 2009, 01:46:57 PM

I think there's a generational gap between Ami and I.  It may well be that radical changes were made in high school science teaching, including the lab work, between the 1950s, when I was in HS, and the 1960s or 1970s.

One of my first science fair wins was a computer program to suggest alternate chemical analysis to differentiate substances when initial tests results were fed in - it would suggest the next test to perform that would give the highest degree of confidence in the test results. Similar programs are being used in forensic labs all the time nowadays.

And this was a direct result of my experiences in HS chemistry labs.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Michael Tee on December 31, 2009, 02:08:14 PM

Exactly what I mean.  High schools didn't HAVE computers when I was there.  Not even pocket calculators.  We DID have slide rules, though.  With a slide rule and a pocket protector, you could look like an engineer.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 31, 2009, 02:16:28 PM

Quote from: Michael Tee on December 31, 2009, 02:08:14 PM

Exactly what I mean.  High schools didn't HAVE computers when I was there.  Not even pocket calculators.  We DID have slide rules, though.  With a slide rule and a pocket protector, you could look like an engineer.

High schools didn't have computers when I was there, either. I used one that I had built at home. The first Apples were just coming out when I was leaving HS.

And I still have my pocket slide rule at home. The sleeve for the slide rule has a little tab that you yank and the slide rule pops up. Still know how to use it, too.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 31, 2009, 02:19:58 PM

I hope not everything is computerized .

in college I went through dozens of pigs feet and oranges to learn how give injections and do sutures.

I just don`t how anyone can do a IM injection without practicing on something real

slide rules vs calculators- I`m gonna have side with slide rule  
calculators has a bad habit of making the kids not actually learning the math and only know how to solve it by using the calculator.
the downside of this is a greater chance of error since they can`t spot a wrong answer.
often I`ve seen old school engineer catching errors the young bucks don`t catch

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 31, 2009, 02:23:32 PM

Quote from: kimba1 on December 31, 2009, 02:19:58 PM

I hope not everything is computerized .

in college I went through dozens of pigs feet and oranges to learn how give injections and do sutures.

I just don`t how anyone can do a IM injection without practicing on something real

A lot of that is becoming computerized as well. Surgeons are even doing "remote" surgeries, all the equipment operated remotely.

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 31, 2009, 02:30:58 PM

a scene in star trek come to mind which bones refuse to used the scanner and prefers to actually see a healthy tonsil

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Amianthus on December 31, 2009, 02:36:21 PM

Quote from: kimba1 on December 31, 2009, 02:30:58 PM

a scene in star trek come to mind which bones refuse to used the scanner and prefers to actually see a healthy tonsil

Bones was a Luddite...

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: kimba1 on December 31, 2009, 02:50:42 PM

except in star trek 4 which he thought 20th century medicine is medevil

Title: Re: Liberal education policy in action
Post by: Plane on December 31, 2009, 08:02:54 PM

One thing that is vital to teach , and is poorly taught , is the scientific method.

Experiments do not have wrong answers.