Author Topic: So what do we do about Mubarak?  (Read 2907 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2011, 09:22:51 PM »
is wiki-leaks a CIA under-cover operation?....lol...just kidding

hell....there is so much behind the scenes we'll never know

i just hope the IslamoNazis dont get control of Egypt

i bet the Saudis are watching this closely....of course they could also be in on the whole thing...

who knows anymore?

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2011, 09:33:36 PM »
Mubarak hangs on to power as Obama dictates terms. But for how long?

DEBKAfile Special Report January 29, 2011, 2:31 AM (GMT+02:00)



President Mubarak puts in an appearanceIn his first public appearance in four days of violent
protests against his rule, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said after midnight Friday, Jan. 28,
he would not resign, but had asked the cabinet to step down, would form a new government
Saturday and promised democratic reforms. The protests, Mubarak charged, were part of a
plot to destabilize Egypt and destroy his own legitimacy. As he spoke, dozens of army tanks
massed in Cairo's central Tahrir Square.

President Barack Obama then confirmed at the White House that he had called the Egyptian
for the first time since the crisis erupted last Tuesday and told him he must deliver on his pledges
for a better democracy and greater economic opportunities.

In his speech, Mubarak defended the hated security forces' actions against the protesters.
While promising to fix the economy and provide more freedoms and jobs, he said this would
come through national dialogue, not chaos. The Egyptian president said he had a duty not
to let anything happen to threaten the country's peace and security or permit terrorism.

debkafile:  The coming hours will see how the protest movement responds to Mubarak's decision
to hold on to power in defiance of their main rallying cry and how the army conducts itself as
thousands of protesters defy the nationwide curfew decree. So far, they have not fired the
machine guns on their tanks and the soldiers were welcomed although there were some cases of hostility.

According to some sources, tanks are surrounding the British and US embassies.

After announcing that US aid to Egypt would be reviewed in the light of "unfolding events,"
Obama laid down five conditions for Mubarak to stay on as president with US support:

1. Egyptian military and security forces must be restrained from violence against civilians.
The US would defend the rights to freedom of assembly and speech everywhere.

2. Mubarak must deliver on his pledges of reforms for a better democracy and greater economic opportunities;

3. He must hold a dialogue with the opponents of his regime and abandon the use of force;

4. The shutdown of Internet and other services must be reversed.

Before Obama communicated with Mubarak, his administration was generally seen to have abandoned
the Egyptian president
as a write-off and thrown its support behind the protesters.

"The situation must be solved by the Egyptian people which deserves to have its universal rights respected,"
said White House spokesman Robert Gibbs when asked if the administration supported its pro-Western Arab ally.
President Barack Obama had not spoken to President Mubarak since the crisis began, Gibbs said, stressing that
it was up to the Egyptian government to "immediately address the legitimate grievances of the Egyptian people
by reforms ? not violence. Military and security forces must act with restraint."

Gibbs warned that US aid to Egypt would be reviewed in the light of unfolding events.

The Egyptian president is clearly on trial in Washington as well as at home. It is not clear if he can survive both tests.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2011, 09:33:45 PM »
BT this guy could be promising...

"expressed interest in becoming an "agent of change and an advocate for democracy" in Egyptian politics"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/28/mohamed-elbaradei_n_815529.html


The Israeli's don't like him because he was in charge of  the nuke inspections for the UN in Iran. And some in the US might not be happy with him because he thinks we acted too quickly concerning Iraq.


Christians4LessGvt

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2011, 09:36:05 PM »
.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2011, 09:39:00 PM »
The Israeli's don't like him because he was in charge of  the nuke inspections for the UN in Iran.
And some in the US might not be happy with him because he thinks we acted too quickly concerning Iraq.

again it all "depends"
some may not like him....but compared to who?
i think the Israelis would love him compared to another "Hoe-Main-eeee"
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2011, 09:45:37 PM »
looks like the guy is a grown up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_ElBaradei

Henny

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2011, 04:13:15 AM »
BT....in my mind it "depends"

depends on who takes over...

we have a dictator that loves us, is at peace with Israel, doesn't want to
fund terror abroad & doesn't want to point nukes at us, Europe, and Israel

if they end up with a different kind of dictator or Mullah dictators
it would be silly to trade the friendly dictator for a different dictator that hates us,
will fund terror, will build nukes to point at Israel, Europe, and the US

Iran replaced the corrupt Shah but ended up with corrupt undemocratic MullahNazis
shooting protesters in the street...traded bad for bad and we now have a nuke problem

hopefully thats not the only choice

there is some guy that was in exile that came back & is supposedly democratic & popular
so if this guy is democratic, popular with the people, can fight the undemocratic MullahNazis
then there may be hope.




Actually, I would say to MYOB. (Well, not you in particular - I mean the U.S.) It is the decision of the Egyptian people. They have suffered long enough and believe me, you have no idea the extent of the suffering of those people under Mubarak. Good God, until you spend some time in Cairo and try to navigate the corruption in the systems... step over the impoverished people sleeping in the streets... until you see it on the ground you have no idea.

What strikes me - has often struck me - as sickening is the ability of the U.S. to "notice" a dictatorship when the dictator doesn't fit their agenda (Saddam Hussein)... and ignore a dictator if he toes the line (Hosni Mubarak).

Henny

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2011, 04:25:05 AM »
i know BT.....I'm just razzin ya.

did this all come from wikileaks?

i am super worried about all this

think about the last month.....
Lebanon seemingly has fallen to Hezbollah
and now chaos in Egypt could lead to IslamoNazis there too....

think of all the problems with terror support and nukes we
have with one Islamic Theocracy (IRAN).....gonna be
fun if we get 3? 5? 12?.....

You're worried? Me too - I'm living here. And all of your focus is on the big stuff, no one seems to notice that Jordan is holding protests and demonstrations, and barely noted that Yemen and Qatar (to an extent) are doing the same. But Egypt is really the most likely to set off an explosion here - Egypt leads, the region follows or so the sayings go.

Lebanon will probably end up in another civil war. Don't forget that a huge percentage of the Lebanese are Christian.

Egypt will likely get ElBaradei, which is a GOOD thing and quite a relief compared to the alternatives.

Tunisia is one of the most advanced countries in the region (socially) and I really doubt they will accept Islamic rule.

Yemen couldn't possibly get worse. When you're at the bottom the only way is to go up.

Analysts say that Jordan wouldn't shake up too much - the people can't imagine life without their king. The PM and elected parliament are puppets for the king anyway - something for the people to kick when they get frustrated - and the position of PM and the entire parliament get dissolved so often its laughable. (Seriously a joke in the region.) We hope that's all that will happen here, because there aren't very many good alternatives. Anyway, the Jordanian people are - mostly - concerned about the rising costs of living. As they say, "bread first."

Syria is mighty silent and considering their Shia'a/Iran ties all we can do is hope that they stay that way.

I know nothing about the politics of the other North African countries, except that when Algeria revolts it is terribly bloody - and I see they are uprising there too.

Did I miss anything? Oh yeah, if Mubarak goes and ElBaradei doesn't get control fast enough there is some worry about the Palestine/Egyptian border crossing opening up, and despite which side you play politics on, there is no doubt that chaos will reign there.

Henny

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2011, 04:27:58 AM »
is wiki-leaks a CIA under-cover operation?....lol...just kidding

hell....there is so much behind the scenes we'll never know

i just hope the IslamoNazis dont get control of Egypt

i bet the Saudis are watching this closely....of course they could also be in on the whole thing...

who knows anymore?



No, not the Saudis. The entire thing has been festering in the region for years... decades. People have been living with intolerable corruption. I've always called the Arabs "sheeple" because they just kept taking the sh*t. It was always forcast that if one country finally stood up against dictators and corruption it would ripple through the region.

Oh and Saudi... don't expect anything major to happen there. They are, in general, too fat and happy with the oil money to get very excited about anything. (Or so they say - who knows anymore?)

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2011, 11:20:17 AM »
Actually, I would say to MYOB.

Not a problem....if reality said everybody would do that....
but if you think the Muslim Brotherhood is not getting outside aid you're nuts.
Why should we leave outside influence only to our enemies?

Where is the "MYOB" when Iran is funding Hezbollah to the the tune
of hundreds of millions of dollars to take over Lebanon?

It is the decision of the Egyptian people.

Exactly....that's why it should ideally be democratic.
But often thuggery can win the day...which is not the same as the "decision of the people".
Was minority thug Saddam the "decision of the Iraqi people"?

They have suffered long enough and believe me, you have no idea the
extent of the suffering of those people under Mubarak.


Under Mubarak? How about under "everybody". Under Nasser too.

Good God, until you spend some time in Cairo and try to navigate the corruption in the systems...
step over the impoverished people sleeping in the streets... until you see it on the ground you have no idea.


Yeah and it was like that long before Mubarak and most likely will long after until they accept real democracy and capitalism.
See the United Nations Human Development Index....it's easy to see democratic and free market is the best!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

What strikes me - has often struck me - as sickening is the ability of the U.S. to "notice"
a dictatorship when the dictator doesn't fit their agenda (Saddam Hussein)...
and ignore a dictator if he toes the line (Hosni Mubarak).


What strikes me is the "outrage" over the Shah but lack of outrage over
the abuses of human rights by the Mullahs in Iran or the Muammar Gaddafi's Libya.
All the outrage seems to go away after the new thugs takeover.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Libya

Sometimes in life the choice is between two skunks.
And better to have a skunk that is pointing away from you than at you.
In Iran we had a skunk (the Shah) pointing away from us.....he was a bad guy
But now we have a skunk pointing at us (the Mullahs) that are shooting Iranian citizens in the streets.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Henny

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2011, 01:30:21 PM »
Actually, I would say to MYOB.

Not a problem....if reality said everybody would do that....
but if you think the Muslim Brotherhood is not getting outside aid you're nuts.
Why should we leave outside influence only to our enemies?

Where is the "MYOB" when Iran is funding Hezbollah to the the tune
of hundreds of millions of dollars to take over Lebanon?

I have something to say about the Muslim Brotherhood - they are NOT the same as Al Qaeda or Hizbollah. They're just not. There are splinter groups that go off the deep end, but in general, the Muslim Brotherhood (which is multi-national and pretty much self-sustaining) are usually considered a bunch of pansies by the extreme Islamic groups.

And Egypt is not Lebanon. No Shi'a there. Totally different issue from Lebanon.

It is the decision of the Egyptian people.

Exactly....that's why it should ideally be democratic.
But often thuggery can win the day...which is not the same as the "decision of the people".
Was minority thug Saddam the "decision of the Iraqi people"?

I'm confused about your statement. Tens of thousands of Egyptians are out on the streets demonstrating - how is that thuggery? Or do I misunderstand?

They have suffered long enough and believe me, you have no idea the
extent of the suffering of those people under Mubarak.


Under Mubarak? How about under "everybody". Under Nasser too.

Too true. I just got to witness some of it under Mubarak, hear the first hand stories. *shudder*

Good God, until you spend some time in Cairo and try to navigate the corruption in the systems...
step over the impoverished people sleeping in the streets... until you see it on the ground you have no idea.


Yeah and it was like that long before Mubarak and most likely will long after until they accept real democracy and capitalism.
See the United Nations Human Development Index....it's easy to see democratic and free market is the best!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

I agree with you that a democracy will be best for them. But Mubarak could have made changes as well, and instead things denigrated under his reign. One thing that stays fresh in my mind are the stories from Egyptian migrants in the region that talk about political dissidents being silenced effectively when the police rape their children in front of them. God!

What strikes me - has often struck me - as sickening is the ability of the U.S. to "notice"
a dictatorship when the dictator doesn't fit their agenda (Saddam Hussein)...
and ignore a dictator if he toes the line (Hosni Mubarak).


What strikes me is the "outrage" over the Shah but lack of outrage over
the abuses of human rights by the Mullahs in Iran or the Muammar Gaddafi's Libya.
All the outrage seems to go away after the new thugs takeover.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Libya

Good point and I agree.

Sometimes in life the choice is between two skunks.
And better to have a skunk that is pointing away from you than at you.
In Iran we had a skunk (the Shah) pointing away from us.....he was a bad guy
But now we have a skunk pointing at us (the Mullahs) that are shooting Iranian citizens in the streets.

In Iran, I believe the youth will lead the way for change, but it's frustrating to watch it draaaaagggg out, is it not?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: So what do we do about Mubarak?
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2011, 01:53:44 PM »
I have heard no words of praise for the Iranian government of the Ayatollahs from any political faction in the US, only arguments on how best to bring about change there.

The Saudis and the other Maghreb (Arabic for West, meaning countries west of Mecca, ie North African) nations are all on pretty good terms with one another, except perhaps Libya, since Khadaffi dethroned poor old King Idris to attain power. Tunisia is the second or third most prosperous nation in Africa (after South Africa and maybe Botswana), and is influenced greatly by France.

President Obama should continue to insist on free communication as well as the right of demonstrators to protest. He should not try to back up Mubarak in any way. It seems to me that the ultimate power in Egypt is the Army, which is pretty much considered a joke in the US, but is very highly regarded by the Egyptian people. As they say, "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king". The Egyptian Army is king at the present moment. I have the feeling that if Mubarak publicly ordered the Army to shoot to kill, he would likely be overthrown, but would not be obeyed. I doubt that Mubarak would be as foolish as to give such an order publicly, though. He is an antiquated fossil, but not really all that stupid.

I could offer the thought that he is smarter than Sadat, because unlike Sadat, he has not been assassinated or overthrown by a military coup, the only ways that Egyptians traditionally get a new leader. I agree that he does not APPEAR to be smarter than Sadat. His English is a lot worse, and I do not see much charisma there, either. But I am not Egyptian, so perhaps he is charismatic in some special Egyptian way.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."