Author Topic: Was Osama Right?  (Read 2387 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2007, 12:21:21 PM »
<<When Kerry ran he promised a faster stronger smarter response, which i guess would induce even more violence than Bush brought.

<<I don't think you HO is well thought out. >>

You really don't get it, do you?  Kerry and Bush are two sides of the same coin.  The voters in one sham election after another get a "choice" between Violence Brand A and Violence Brand B.  Military-Industrial Complex spokesman A or Military-Industrial Complex spokesman B.


BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2007, 12:50:28 PM »
Your opinion was that America is setup to vote in "idiots" like Bush.

My point was that the other choice, Kerry would have put far more troops in harms way sooner.

Your point was that America is set up to be in a constant state of war.

My counterpoint was that at least one party (dems) is trying to position themselves as the party of peace. And i'm not sure many members of tha party would agree with your assessment that they are the same as the GOP except with a different themesong.

Your point was that it doesn't matter what party you belong to. The Oligarchs call the shots.

I disagree.

 


Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2007, 01:10:51 PM »
<<Your opinion was that America is setup to vote in "idiots" like Bush.

<<My point was that the other choice, Kerry would have put far more troops in harms way sooner. >>

Who gives a shit how many of those morons get sent into harm's way?  The point for the military-industrial complex or Secret Government or whatever you want to call it is that there is war, there is conflict.  It's good for business, and as you've noticed, these folks DON'T invest their own sons.  (Peace slogan of the Sixties:  War is Good for Business.  Invest Your Son.)

It made very little difference to them who would be President as between Bush and Kerry; the important thing was to ensure that whoever was President, it would not be Noam Chomsky or Ralph Nader or anyone who thought like them.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2007, 01:47:05 PM »
Quote
it would not be Noam Chomsky or Ralph Nader or anyone who thought like them.

I doubt the oligarch would even break a sweat keeping the likes of them unelected.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2007, 05:12:47 PM »
Although Kerry had a hawkish stance as a candidate, his party would certainly have been both more likely and more able to cause him to take a more peaceful stance than has been the case with Juniorbush.

We would have been slightly better off had Kerry been elected, and MUCH more so had  Gore been allowed to become president by dint of getting more votes from the people.

There are major hawks on both parties, but the GOP has been dominated by them since the Olebush administration. The noninterventionist sector of the GOP has vanished. Only a few members remain in the Party that are not major warmongers.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2007, 05:17:11 PM »
<<I doubt the oligarch would even break a sweat keeping the likes of them unelected.>>

Of course not.  That shows ya the kind of lock "the oligarch" has on the American sheeple.  Chomsky and Nader make a lot of sense but they don't seem to have found a way of selling their product to the morons.  Militarism is an easy sell.  It appeals to a lot of primitive instincts but dresses up as "duty, honour, country" and appeals to both the Neaderthals who perform the slaughter and the stay-at-home Walter Mitty's who can compensate for the powerlessness and insignificance of their own miserable existences by vicariously living out the macho fantasies of the warrior caste.  

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2007, 05:24:17 PM »
No doubt we have had quite the military history.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2007, 05:25:52 PM »
the Neaderthals who perform the slaughter

And another hit phrase from Mikey describing our service members.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2007, 05:40:53 PM »
The fact is that joining the military has long been a part of American Coming of Age traditions.

The wimpy kid was sent off to the military so as to "make a man out of him".

The juvenile delinquents were sent off to war because the Army would "get him straightened out" At least there were fewer hubcaps to steal in the Army.

The military is also quite useful in improving employment statistics for the government, keeping hotblooded young men off the streets, and perhaps even educating them when the schools have failed to make an impression on them.

Militarism is part of the American Tradition.

It rather sucks that it is.

I started teaching out in Washington State in the mid-1960's. The school district was very small, and everyone ate in the same lunchroom, since there were no restaurants around, and lunch was 45 ¢. The other HS teachers and I would talk about the idiocy of Vietnam, and the Superintendent would tell us how utterly meaningful he had found the Korean War to be. He was a farmboy from some tiny hick town in North Dakota, and he thought that the Army (he never mentioned the Navy, Marines or God forbid, the Coast Guard) was the one thing that caused him to be a success in life.

It was unchallenged that being the super of Westport Ocosta Unified School District No 123 was a success. Nor dide anyomne mention that Korea was not anything that could be called a victory. That was long before Hyundai made the rather nice cars it makes today. Koreans were into sewing Qiana shirts back then.

Eventually, he got so pissed at us that he told us that he would not issue any more deferments to any single male teachers. I went to Mexico and finished my Masters degree.  I don't think any of the undeferred teachers actually ended up in Vietnam.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

yellow_crane

  • Guest
Re: Was Osama Right?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2007, 10:39:29 PM »
Although Kerry had a hawkish stance as a candidate, his party would certainly have been both more likely and more able to cause him to take a more peaceful stance than has been the case with Juniorbush.

We would have been slightly better off had Kerry been elected, and MUCH more so had  Gore been allowed to become president by dint of getting more votes from the people.

There are major hawks on both parties, but the GOP has been dominated by them since the Olebush administration. The noninterventionist sector of the GOP has vanished. Only a few members remain in the Party that are not major warmongers.



I saw a discussion last night on one of the pundit tracks that mentioned that Kerry and his campaign machine decided to maintain a completely anger-free profile during the campaign and during the debates.

This goes a long way in understanding why Americans did not trust him.

Sometimes the Democrats are guilty of over-think.

That his staff should choose to follow the precepts of political correctness rather than dependable, readable, usable, bonafide emotional componentry would explain a lot of the backfire.

Political correctness people often confuse anger with aggression, as do their constituency, codependent America.

Anger is a legitimate emotion.  It has its place and its value.  I find it impossible to think of Moses  without the anger angle.  Jehovah found man wanting and got pissed.  Anger is only a psychological problem when it is inappropriate. 

Anger is a major component of the emotional system, and when you seek to eliminate it, pretend to be "above" it, you will find yourself rearranging a lot of cerebral furniture.  Soon you might find your inner self eating crow atop the commode, all the while pretending nothing is amiss.

It is a common psychological adage that you really can't trust somebody who exhibits no anger whatsoever.  To wreck this diversionary manipulation a good therapist will poke and wheedle to evoke anger, thus establishing that the process can resume without the bullshit halo.

Political correctness people will claim that someone who displays any trace of anger cannot be trusted.  But on a deeper level, people less buffed tend to look at their politicians and find that anger often inspires trust.  (Consider the political 'victory' of Clinton when sandbagged by the very angry son on Fox.)  Often they delight in it, like those who liked Huey Long and Harry Truman.  Reagan made his base sing when he got angry.  One of Reagan's key moves was to show appropriate anger with timeliness.  He would have been a muppy straightman without it, and therefore less capable of winning, or being remembered.

Then, to compensate, Kerry decided to show his anger by being sarcastic, your ordinary everday passive-aggressive expression of anger.  Because he over-thought it, because he calculated it for political correctness, hoping for political advantage by way of observing political correctness, when he decided he now, too late, needed to show anger homage . . . when he spoke sarcastic, he was off-key.   The volume of the click of a misfire can be louder than a true round.  It ruined him forever.

Hillary? 

She will prevail in that arena because she has it and has no problem with sharing that particular feeling.  She also does it with precise congruence.  People will realize they trust it.

And I ask you . . . the proper response to having had been had by these neocons?

Even the conservatives in Washington feel it.

Fucking anger.