Author Topic: Violation of the Constitution  (Read 12820 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2006, 12:58:57 PM »

Can you tell me who has actually said that the mistreatment of prisoners in Abu Garaib is "no big deal"?


Right off the top of my head, I recall Rush Limbaugh and other conservative talking heads comparing the Abu Ghraib abuse to a college frat prank. And I also recall some conservative opinion column writers, along with some conservatives at 3DHS, explaining that we needed to put the abuse into "perspective", that compared to things other countries have done and compared to the actions of terrorists, it really wasn't that bad.  Maybe you missed that conversation, but I remember being appalled that people were trying to minimize the abuse. (I did not comment on the Abu Ghraib abuse when the story first broke because it made me genuinely angry that American troops would be involved in such a thing, and I felt whatever rant I might have produced would not be a good contribution to the discussion.)

And the sad thing is, the minimization is still going on. Look, here is you doing it:

When has anything nice been the norm for Captured Americans?
In the Revolutionary War Captured Americans were rotting alive on prison barges .
In the Civil War Prison Camp conditions were uniformly awfull with a few outstandingly awfull camps like Andersonville.

In WWII Allied Prisoners of Japan were worked to death , starved , beaten , beheaded etc.


I don't think you can hold the US to shame by comparison to the advradge of the world in this subject.
As I said before, how bad the rest of the world treats military prisoners does not matter because we, America, the United States, we are supposed to be better than that. We're supposed to be above that because we're supposed to care about human rights. No one is ask you to condemn all of America for the actions of a few, but there is no excuse for justifying the kind of prisoner abuse that went on at Abu Ghraib. And no, the "but they're worse" excuse is not valid no matter how many times it is repeated.
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domer

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2006, 01:39:29 PM »
This is a significant legal question. We start with the proposition that Congress controls the jurisdiction of the federal courts. Suspending a certain remedy would seem to fall within that sweep. Yet, for habeas particularly, there is an exception (to Congressional control of federal court dockets), which provides for a total ban on suspension save for instances of "rebellion and invasion" (if I recall correctly). The first question is whether our present circumstances present an instance of "invasion." With an on-the-ground, actual attack on US soil in our recent history, and with a continuing threat of repeat attacks, it is not so clear cut that the present time is not a time of "invasion." But further, beyond this exception, I would think that exception or not, Congressional "tinkering" with "core constitutional rights" must be viewed with a suspicious eye, giving the presumption of regularity to the "core constitutional principle." There is also the matter, since habeas in this context is at least a quasi-criminal concept, that the principles behind the ban on ex post facto laws (retroactive criminal laws) must be examined for any bearing on the problem.

Lanya

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2006, 04:02:31 PM »
So because Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda hit us here, and threatens via video to do it again, we suspend our own right to habeas corpus?

What a very clever stroke by Osama.

We did not suspend habeas corpus during WW2, did we?   Officially?  Post Pearl Harbor? 
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Amianthus

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2006, 06:49:49 PM »
We did not suspend habeas corpus during WW2, did we?   Officially?  Post Pearl Harbor? 

I'm still trying to find out where we "officially" suspended habeas corpus for US citizens now.
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sirs

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2006, 07:39:21 PM »
We did not suspend habeas corpus during WW2, did we?   Officially?  Post Pearl Harbor? 

I'm still trying to find out where we "officially" suspended habeas corpus for US citizens now.


I think it fits in with the Bush lied approach....because they said so
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2006, 08:02:47 PM »

Can you tell me who has actually said that the mistreatment of prisoners in Abu Garaib is "no big deal"?


Right off the top of my head, I recall Rush Limbaugh and other conservative talking heads comparing the Abu Ghraib abuse to a college frat prank. And I also recall some conservative opinion column writers, along with some conservatives at 3DHS, explaining that we needed to put the abuse into "perspective", that compared to things other countries have done and compared to the actions of terrorists, it really wasn't that bad.  Maybe you missed that conversation, but I remember being appalled that people were trying to minimize the abuse. (I did not comment on the Abu Ghraib abuse when the story first broke because it made me genuinely angry that American troops would be involved in such a thing, and I felt whatever rant I might have produced would not be a good contribution to the discussion.)

And the sad thing is, the minimization is still going on. Look, here is you doing it:

When has anything nice been the norm for Captured Americans?
In the Revolutionary War Captured Americans were rotting alive on prison barges .
In the Civil War Prison Camp conditions were uniformly awfull with a few outstandingly awfull camps like Andersonville.

In WWII Allied Prisoners of Japan were worked to death , starved , beaten , beheaded etc.


I don't think you can hold the US to shame by comparison to the advradge of the world in this subject.
As I said before, how bad the rest of the world treats military prisoners does not matter because we, America, the United States, we are supposed to be better than that. We're supposed to be above that because we're supposed to care about human rights. No one is ask you to condemn all of America for the actions of a few, but there is no excuse for justifying the kind of prisoner abuse that went on at Abu Ghraib. And no, the "but they're worse" excuse is not valid no matter how many times it is repeated.



Rush Limbaugh can be wrong , his authority within our system is not greater than Al Frankens .


Lanya was who I was responding to a while ago when she said that when our troops get this treatment we won't like it , in truth I expect our troops to be mistreated because they usually are , at no time has the standard we set ever been important ot our enemy.


I will have to give you though that it is wrong to use the enemy as our own standard , we have to stick to treatment standards that are good for our self respect.

sirs

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2006, 02:00:45 AM »
Can you tell me who has actually said that the mistreatment of prisoners in Abu Garaib is "no big deal"?

Right off the top of my head, I recall Rush Limbaugh and other conservative talking heads comparing the Abu Ghraib abuse to a college frat prank. And I also recall some conservative opinion column writers, along with some conservatives at 3DHS, explaining that we needed to put the abuse into "perspective", that compared to things other countries have done and compared to the actions of terrorists, it really wasn't that bad. 

I'm compelled to add clarity to this concept being proposed by Prince.  The "perspective" was in no way implying "no biggie"  It was specific in countering the arguements being posed that what was happening in Abu Graib was somehow equal to what was occuring to those taken by terrorists.  That being made to wear underwear on one's head was analogus to being beheaded.  That being made to listen to loud music and be deprived of some sleep was analogus to being burned alive.  THAT was the concept of "perspective" that was being referenced, vs this concept that any Abu Graib abuses were "no real biggie"
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Lanya

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2006, 02:27:33 AM »
We did not suspend habeas corpus during WW2, did we?   Officially?  Post Pearl Harbor? 

I'm still trying to find out where we "officially" suspended habeas corpus for US citizens now.

These things are so easy to look up.
via The New American   http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2002/07-15-2002/vo18no14_suspending.htm
[]

According to the Bush administration's brief, "the military has the authority to capture and detain individuals whom it has determined are enemy combatants -- including enemy combatants claiming American citizenship. Such combatants, moreover, have no right of access to counsel to challenge their detention." Furthermore, continues the brief, "the Court may not second-guess the military's enemy-combatant determination" because by doing so they would intrude on "the President's plenary authority as Commander in Chief," which supposedly includes the power to establish policies concerning "the capture, detention, and treatment of the enemy and the collection and evaluation of intelligence vital to national security."
[]
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Amianthus

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2006, 07:11:35 AM »
These things are so easy to look up.
via The New American   http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2002/07-15-2002/vo18no14_suspending.htm
[]

According to the Bush administration's brief, "the military has the authority to capture and detain individuals whom it has determined are enemy combatants -- including enemy combatants claiming American citizenship. Such combatants, moreover, have no right of access to counsel to challenge their detention." Furthermore, continues the brief, "the Court may not second-guess the military's enemy-combatant determination" because by doing so they would intrude on "the President's plenary authority as Commander in Chief," which supposedly includes the power to establish policies concerning "the capture, detention, and treatment of the enemy and the collection and evaluation of intelligence vital to national security."
[]

Enemy combatants that are captured are POWs and therefore do not have a right to a trial. No right to trial, no right of habeas corpus. Geneva Convention dictates this, if I'm not mistaken.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Lanya

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2006, 07:27:17 AM »
These things are so easy to look up.
via The New American   http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2002/07-15-2002/vo18no14_suspending.htm
[]

According to the Bush administration's brief, "the military has the authority to capture and detain individuals whom it has determined are enemy combatants -- including enemy combatants claiming American citizenship. Such combatants, moreover, have no right of access to counsel to challenge their detention." Furthermore, continues the brief, "the Court may not second-guess the military's enemy-combatant determination" because by doing so they would intrude on "the President's plenary authority as Commander in Chief," which supposedly includes the power to establish policies concerning "the capture, detention, and treatment of the enemy and the collection and evaluation of intelligence vital to national security."
[]

Enemy combatants that are captured are POWs and therefore do not have a right to a trial. No right to trial, no right of habeas corpus. Geneva Convention dictates this, if I'm not mistaken.

I am sorry, but I fail to see what this has to do with my post.
I did not reference POWs.  I referred to citizens who, under this law, can now be declared 'enemy combatants', be imprisoned, and not have the right to counsel.
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Amianthus

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2006, 07:30:49 AM »
I did not reference POWs.

A captured enemy combatant is a POW. Regardless of citizenship. It's the definition.

"prisoner of war
n., pl. prisoners of war.

A person taken by or surrendering to enemy forces in wartime."
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 07:32:56 AM by Amianthus »
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Universe Prince

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2006, 03:09:57 PM »

I'm compelled to add clarity to this concept being proposed by Prince.


You did, just not in the way you intended, imo.


The "perspective" was in no way implying "no biggie"  It was specific in countering the arguements being posed that what was happening in Abu Graib was somehow equal to what was occuring to those taken by terrorists.  That being made to wear underwear on one's head was analogus to being beheaded.  That being made to listen to loud music and be deprived of some sleep was analogus to being burned alive.  THAT was the concept of "perspective" that was being referenced, vs this concept that any Abu Graib abuses were "no real biggie"


I don't know how anyone can come away from that explanation without an impression that you think the Abu Ghraib abuses were no big deal. What abuses do you list? Being made to wear underwear on one's head, being forced to listen to loud music, and sleep deprivation. And you compare it all being beheaded and being burned alive. In what way are you not minimizing the abuse that happened at Abu Ghraib? Sure, it doesn't sound so bad the way you talk about it, but the problem is the abuse was not just some minor inconvenience like lack of sleep or loud music. The abuse included prisoners under threat of attack by snarling dogs, prisoners forced to strip and have sex, prisoners raped and sodomized, and at least one prisoner was forced to stand on a small box, had wires attached to him, and was told if he fell off the box he would be electrocuted. This is inexcusable behavior whether or not you compare it to beheading or anything else terrorists or other countries have done. But you minimize it, speaking of it as if it's just underwear on the head or some loud music. I suppose I should thank you for proving my point, but I'm appalled just the same.
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Universe Prince

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2006, 03:18:31 PM »

A captured enemy combatant is a POW. Regardless of citizenship. It's the definition.


My understanding was that we were not treating terror suspects as prisoners of war because they were not members of a uniformed army. Thus are they "enemy combatants" rather than "prisoners of war".
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Amianthus

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2006, 03:26:40 PM »
My understanding was that we were not treating terror suspects as prisoners of war because they were not members of a uniformed army. Thus are they "enemy combatants" rather than "prisoners of war".

My understanding is that they are both "enemy combatants" but the Geneva Convention applies only to uniformed soldiers.

"Enemy combatant" seems to be a subset of "Prisoner of War" - as civilians detained by troops are also "Prisoners of War" though not considered "combatants."
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sirs

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Re: Violation of the Constitution
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2006, 03:59:43 PM »
I don't know how anyone can come away from that explanation without an impression that you think the Abu Ghraib abuses were no big deal

How about the part where I've said that "perpsective" is in no way referencing being "no big deal"?  How about the part where I've consistently criticized abuses that go over the line, and need prosecuting.  How about the part that making one wear underpants on their head is nothing in relation to having one's head cut off?  Your "impression" meter needs a major overhaul, Prince

In what way are you not minimizing the abuse that happened at Abu Ghraib?

Presenting perspective when trying to debate those who claim such abuses at Abu Graib are akin to "abuses" at the hands of terrorists is focused on dismantling the notion of how analogus they're supposed to be.  Do you see how it's being presented yet?  It's not defending U.S. abuses, it's condeming the notion that abuses are equal in stature. 

The abuse included prisoners forced to strip and have sex, prisoners raped and sodomized

Do you see anyone supporting that?  Did you notice that such acts have been criticized, and those creating those acts are to be prosecuted??  And if the snarling dogs and "threat" (was it an actual threat or faked threat) of electrocution was simply being done to abuse prisoners for fun, that's to be condemned as well.  Do you see that's still no where near being beheaded or burned alive?? 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 07:08:52 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle