DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Plane on November 15, 2010, 12:19:15 AM
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http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2010/11/the_myth_that_veiling_protects_women_from_assault.html (http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2010/11/the_myth_that_veiling_protects_women_from_assault.html)
(http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/iamges/sub9/hijabi-fliessm.jpg)
I have seen this before , middle easterners have the impression of us that we are pretty undisciplined and that our women are getting raped a lot more than theirs are.
This article doesn't really refute this idea , there are not enough hard facts in it to amount to a refutation , but I think I have never seen any proof of the idea either.
To people who believe in the benefits of Hijab, it is a matter of common sense , you don't need to prove that 1+1=2 by statistical study. If American and European Women are more exposed, then they are of course more molested.
In my opinion sexual conduct that is inappropriate happens when someone prone to commit thinks he can get away with it , and the presense or absense of a curtain is a minor factor. What could I find that would demonstrate my opinion is correct?
I thought about crime stats , then decided that empowered Women in the west would be less likely to hide a crime against themselves than women who might be punished in the law for having been raped. The actual numbers of real crimes might be unobtainable.
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It is also true that women that are poorly wrapped are most often molested in Arab and Muslim countries: it is part of the culture. Discretion is supposed to reside mostly with the women, and this is what people in those cultures expect. To change the attitudes, it will be necessary to change the culture.
After arrests and campaigns, Italian-Americans and Hispanic Americans gradually stopped harassing women on the street as a demonstration of their macho culture. I know that in Mexico, the women hate guys who tell them how pretty they are and how sexy they look and make those icky sucking sounds. When I lived in Mexico City, the custom of piropos (things men say to women) was seen by most of the Mexico City and Guadalajara women that the guys saying this stuff were hicks and stupid yokel campesinos, and of course it was true that in the 'provincia' there was a lot more of this.
The control on obscene piropos in the pueblos was originally the fact that everyone knew everyone else, and insulting someone's mother or sister meant that one could expect to be mobbed by her uncles, brothers, cousins, and get the caca stomped out of them. This is still the case in Costa Rica, where the piropos are rarely obscene.
But when the pueblos grew and there was more anonymity, the piropos got more obscene.
There was an American girl classmate of mine that I knew in Mexico who liked to wear frilly sleeveless dresses with a short skirt because she liked to be comfortable. At the time, the smallest coin available was the quinto, the Mexican nickle and she used to ask all her friends to give her all they had, which were worth a twentieth of a peso, when a peso was worth 8¢, so a quinto was worth 2/5ths of a penny. There were some albañiles who used to hoot at her when she walked by n her way to the bus stop, and she would fling these at them, which shut them up, since the quinto was what one gave to beggars who were making a nuisance of themselves. I never saw her do it, but she claimed it worked.
The photos that Plane shows reveal the attitude of Muslim culture: men, like flies, will be pests, unless women cover themselves. I am pretty sure that in some countries both sexes agree with this, less so in the more Westernized ones.
It will take a long time before this changes, but it will eventually change.
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I have seen this before , middle easterners have the impression of us that we are pretty undisciplined and that our women are getting raped a lot more than theirs are.
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It stands to reason that Western women are more likely to be harassed and raped, as the doofuses and sex fiends that molest women are basically controlled in their culture by thre relatives of the woman, who believe that they are justified in beating the living poo out of anyone who messes with their women. The offenders know that a Western woman probably could not identify the perps, and that her relatives are unlikely to stomp the poo out of them in any case.
I have no proof that this is the case, but this is how it was seen in Mexico in the '60's.
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http://www.hegab-rehab.com/2010/04/hijab-safety-is-must.html (http://www.hegab-rehab.com/2010/04/hijab-safety-is-must.html)
Every now and then garments harm their wearer, mostly when they get caught in spinning machinery.
http://www.islamtimes.org/vdci35az.t1azr2lict.html (http://www.islamtimes.org/vdci35az.t1azr2lict.html)
Back to the origional idea. Hijab needs to be observed or even enforced for the sake of society. Men need less distraction , women need more protection.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=307568429696&topic=13149 (http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=307568429696&topic=13149)
Everything that Almighty Allah has made valuable & precious in this world, is kept safe & secure.
Diamonds are kept safe deep down in the ground.
Pearls are kept safe deep down at the bottom of the ocean.
Gold is kept safe down in the mine, covered over with layers & layers of rock.
The Pearl (jewl of the sea) has been given such a beautiful hijab that the oyster shell protects it from sea animals and keeps it sparkling & shining inside.
Almighty Allah has blessed us with such beautiful fruits, and has given each a beautiful hijab, to work as a protective peel tp preserve it's beauty.
Almighty Allah has given Orange such a beautiful hijab to protect it's delicious fruit.
Almight Allah has given the banana, coconut, pomegranate each one an elegant & unique hijab, which protects it from disease & destruction.
Almight Allah has given the pea such a beautiful hijab, that it protects it from the hot & cold weather & guards it from insects.
Diamonds , Pearls & Gold ect may be valuable, but a Woman is more valuable and more precious than any of them, don't they deserve to be kept safe?..
about 9 months ago · Report
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Marsh'allah x
If change is comeing to them , is it good for them , do they want it?
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Some want it, notably the women. If someone's mother and sister read the riot act to some perp, that should have a significant effect.
Being as attitudes towards women in places like Saudi Arabia mean that only half of the society is productive and useful to the culture in a capacity other than as a parent, I don't see how it could not be a benefit to everyone, whether they like it or not.
In 1950, the average per capita income of Egypt and Taiwan were equal. Egypt was far more fertile and had a culture in which everyone spoke a common language, which was not true of Taiwan, where there were speakers of Taiwanese, Min, and Mandarin, and all the locals had suffered 50 years of Japanese colonialism.
Now Taiwan is a first world country that has disease and population under control and Egypt has had much less progress. The main reason for this is the culture: the people of Taiwan are pragmatists and care little for the religions of their fellow citizens. The Egyptians are Muslims and are trapped in a culture that has progressed as far as it can without some major changes,
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I have seen this before , middle easterners have the impression of us that we are pretty undisciplined and that our women are getting raped a lot more than theirs are.
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It stands to reason that Western women are more likely to be harassed and raped, as the doofuses and sex fiends that molest women are basically controlled in their culture by thre relatives of the woman, who believe that they are justified in beating the living poo out of anyone who messes with their women. The offenders know that a Western woman probably could not identify the perps, and that her relatives are unlikely to stomp the poo out of them in any case.
I have no proof that this is the case, but this is how it was seen in Mexico in the '60's.
On the southern Coast of Spain vacationing Germans show a lot of skin, while i was there I didn't see andy orgy going on , just sunbathing and swimming. Europe in general is getting more permissive of less dress.
Growing in Europe is a population of Asains , Africans and Turks who are set apart by more old fashioned attitudes. They are not assimilateing as much as the Europeans want them to and the ones that do assimilate upset their parents and social groups. This is produceing an Aparthied enforced strangely from underneith.
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The parents will die. Attitudes will change. It will take time. Muslims are probably more resistant to change than Southern segregationists. Islam is more insistent about sexual roles than is Christianity. But you can get a drink of alcohol in almost all Muslim nations except the Arabic ones near Saudi Arabia. Eventually the Sauds will be thrown out and that will provoke major change. No dynasties last forever unless they change drastically.
Just before a major social change occurs, the resistance increases.
In 1960, every restaurant except the chains had one of those "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs. Around 1975, they seem to have vanished. Bubba got the sugar diabetes and left the place to Bubba Jr.and Bubba Junior took the sign down, because he was not into refusing money, or so it seems.
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Change is not limited to one direction. Lots of changes cycle in a pendulum fashion bumping into the upper limits and the lower limits alternately.
Modest dress is at a nadir now , might that not mean that the reversal is nearly here?
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Change in the world has been in the direction of diversity ever since the invention of the radio and movies. The current Muslim trend towards putting women in ugly bags is a reaction to this, like the Counter Reformation of the 1700's, which was eminently unsuccessful.
Napoleon III was a reaction to rule by popularly elected officials.
Napoleon I was a reaction to the Terror of Robespierre. This is what they meant when they said "History repeats itself; first as a tragedy, then as a farce." Napoleon I was the tragedy, as his reign resulted in the (temporary) end of the revolution and French dominance of the Continent.
Napoleon III was the farce.
History progresses as a series of actions, each of which causes a reaction, that merges with the action to become a synthesis, which becomes a new action, which provokes a reaction and so on.
The hejab is the reaction. However, the women in the hejabs go home, not to a tyrannical husband, but to a TV that shows women enjoying not dressing in ugly bags. The women today may see this as a reason to wear the hejab, but their daughters will not.
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or maybe middle eastern men are less safe for women to be around than other countries
remember rape is a crime in pakistan which the women are sent to prison for letting it happened.
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Muslims are probably more resistant to change than Southern segregationists.
Or Northern Racist cops that shove a broken broom handle up an African American's asshole.
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or maybe middle eastern men are less safe for women to be around than other countries
remember rape is a crime in pakistan which the women are sent to prison for letting it happened.
Welcome back Kimba
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thanks
actually I`ve been here for awhile but the change here made it hard to figure what I can talk about.
I figure this subject to ok .
I`ll be more restraint from now on.
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actually I`ve been here for awhile but the change here made it hard to figure what I can talk about.
You can talk about anything you want.
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Or Northern Racist cops that shove a broken broom handle up an African American's asshole.
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I have not heard that the broom handle was broken.
The victim was a Haitian American, by the way.
I do not defend this in any way,and do not see what possible relevance it has to women wearing hejab or any other sorts pf clothing. I suppose you want to blame me somehow for what some NYC cops did years ago over a thousand miles from me,
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Welcome back, kimba.
I never thought that you were too unrestrained.
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thank you
it`s different here, no more varied topics.
it`s conservative only here from now , or anything against liberals is ok.
I saw not off topics this past month.
I`m ok with it ,just means I`ll get mostly one opinion here.
I`ll just respond and not start a subject.
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KIMBA!
Hey how have you been?
I think what you are noticing is one of the values of diversity being demonstrated, widely separated points of view illumine a subject well, haveing all observations from the same quarter leaves a subject three quarters unobserved.
It will help that you are back, you are unique in our group and provide a POV from outside the reach of the rest.
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I`m ok
I`ve been discovering the wondeful world of podcast on itunes.
I love adam carolla take on my town
I love the freak show but eventually somebody gotta pay the taxes.
it hurt I couldn`t comment the cruiseship here, 6 people e-mail that picture of spam being airlifted to that ship.