Irony on the Bailout

[Henny]

Realizing that the American auto industry is international, it is still heavily based in Michigan. Toyota, Honda and Nissan, etc. don't have those ties to Michigan. And it is unrealistic to think that all of those unemployed people will be able to get up and move down South (where most of the foreign automakers have factories), although Michigan is already experiencing an exodus of sorts as the State has been suffering for a long time now.

Some people are under the misconstrued opinion of this mass amount of unemployed, as if there'll be no jobs for them to go to, if the big 3 go bankrupt.  Newsflash to those folks, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc., will have no problem looking for hordes of new employees to fill the void when they buy up many of these now non-running American Car plants.

Just don't expect to be making a king's ransom as a salary, is all

[sirs]

A person does what a person has to do, in order to support themselves and possibly a family.  I've moved around plenty.  West coast, to East Coast, back now west.  Point being there will be jobs, and more likely IF the Michigan big 3 went under, the factories in Michigan would likely be bought up by other car makers, and positions will need to be filled.

In other words, the jobs won't disappear.  Auto workers sould simply have to look for them, when they present themselves.

This whole bailout idea of the car industry, as facilitated by the Dems has very little to do with trying to save the American auto industry, near as much is it an effort to save the Union jobs, that ironically have pumped MILLIONS of dollars in campaign donations to pretty much, the Dems

[Xavier_Onassis]

This whole bailout idea of the car industry, as facilitated by the Dems has very little to do with trying to save the American auto industry, near as much is it an effort to save the Union jobs, that ironically have pumped MILLIONS of dollars in campaign donations to pretty much, the Dems

===============================================
What is ironic about union members supporting the Democrats? Republicans HATE unions, and have done everything they can to legally destroy them.

A great number of GM and Chrysler products are assembled and some are manufactured in Mexico and Canada, by the way.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I find this blog entry by August Pollack to be an informative view on the GM bailout:

http://www.xoverboard.com

We're all experts

I remember a few years back when there was that whole controversy over Saudi Arabia having access to U.S. shipping ports, and I found it funny how everyone suddenly became an expert on international port security overnight. I feel the same way reading all the kneejerk garbage people are saying about the auto industry.

I'm going to be one of the few people out there who's just going to admit that he knows very little about the entire situation other than what I've already seen on the news. But I am also going to point out that I've already gotten really sick of hearing left-leaning bloggers and pundits talk about how they think that we should "let GM fail." I'm not interested in engaging in debate on this, because I don't know a lot about the labor industry and frankly neither do 95% of you. But I'm smart enough to understand that GM is not some evil robot that is defeated by not giving it money. GM is, in fact, a company composed of several hundred thousand workers, not to mention another several hundred thousand parts distributors and manufacturers reliant on the business of said company, who would all be completely screwed if we just let one of the largest companies in America go under.

I suppose when you don't personally live in a particular house, it's a lot easier to just snark that the best way to fix all the problems with it- the leaky roof, the cost-wasting insulation damage, the termites- is to burn the entire house to the ground and hope the residents find another place to live quickly. That doesn't make it any smarter an idea. It's incredibly disappointing to see so many liberals use the same logic for GM as the right-wingers who were asking why we didn't just drop a nuclear warhead on Iraq because that would have wiped out all the terrorists.

And as far as all you quasi-libertarians out there who have once again decided that the union-negotiated salaries of auto plant workers are somehow a reason to destroy an entire company, you're as always a shining example of why I can't even classify you as complete human beings. Wanting several hundred thousand people to become unemployed because you're jealous they make more money than you isn't a political philosophy; it's a degenerative mental condition.

[Christians4LessGvt]

yes we should just blindly hand over billions to a failing company
and asking questions about the lunacy pay of the union workers should be off-limits!

[Henny]

Curious that the author talks about "left-leaning" folks being against the bailout. I had thought it was a right-leaning thing.

I find this blog entry by August Pollack to be an informative view on the GM bailout:

http://www.xoverboard.com

We're all experts

I remember a few years back when there was that whole controversy over Saudi Arabia having access to U.S. shipping ports, and I found it funny how everyone suddenly became an expert on international port security overnight. I feel the same way reading all the kneejerk garbage people are saying about the auto industry.

I'm going to be one of the few people out there who's just going to admit that he knows very little about the entire situation other than what I've already seen on the news. But I am also going to point out that I've already gotten really sick of hearing left-leaning bloggers and pundits talk about how they think that we should "let GM fail." I'm not interested in engaging in debate on this, because I don't know a lot about the labor industry and frankly neither do 95% of you. But I'm smart enough to understand that GM is not some evil robot that is defeated by not giving it money. GM is, in fact, a company composed of several hundred thousand workers, not to mention another several hundred thousand parts distributors and manufacturers reliant on the business of said company, who would all be completely screwed if we just let one of the largest companies in America go under.

I suppose when you don't personally live in a particular house, it's a lot easier to just snark that the best way to fix all the problems with it- the leaky roof, the cost-wasting insulation damage, the termites- is to burn the entire house to the ground and hope the residents find another place to live quickly. That doesn't make it any smarter an idea. It's incredibly disappointing to see so many liberals use the same logic for GM as the right-wingers who were asking why we didn't just drop a nuclear warhead on Iraq because that would have wiped out all the terrorists.

And as far as all you quasi-libertarians out there who have once again decided that the union-negotiated salaries of auto plant workers are somehow a reason to destroy an entire company, you're as always a shining example of why I can't even classify you as complete human beings. Wanting several hundred thousand people to become unemployed because you're jealous they make more money than you isn't a political philosophy; it's a degenerative mental condition.

[Xavier_Onassis]

That's what really irks you, isn't it, richie? That some guy that you think is a lesser being than you should actually be allowed to join a union and get paid more than whatever burger-flipper pays your gianormous salary pays you. You have no objections to them paying the demonstrably incompetent  bosses bazillions and giving them private aircraft to flit bout in, because someday, your prince will come and bestow executive status upon you.

But peons you can't pee on, that is what gets your goat, isn't it?

The main issue is that US automakers need to make products they can sell to Americans, because unless they do this, no amount of bailout will work.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Curious that the author talks about "left-leaning" folks being against the bailout. I had thought it was a right-leaning thing.

At least some of the rightwing wants to bail out the Big Three because they want to see a successful US auto industry in the US not controlled by foreigners. I am sure that all the auto execs are 100% for being bailed out, and they are certainly right wingers.

Those who were elected by people in the auto industry want a bailout for their constituents. There are more line workers than management, and those people would be on the left. Most states have some auto-related jobs in making components and parts for cars, and everywhere has dealers.

The leftists who feel that capitalists should play by their own rules, and go under when they fail are against the bailout.

This is not entirely a left/right issue.

[Brassmask]

Indeed, it is not a right/left thing.

It is odd how lefties and righties are against the bailout for the auto industry but I think for different reasons.  The right doesn't like nationalization and loves the freemarket religion.  The left doesn't like that the Big 3 have been building gas guzzlers for years and have refused to admit their culpability in global warming.

If it were up to me, I'd either let them fall flat and re-build the burnt, saved village OR give them the money only AFTER they've fired the execs who are there now, sold all private jets, hired new execs who only make a little bit more than union workers and have plans for a several different lines of electric and hybrid vehicles and discontinue any models that get under 40 mpg.

If we're paying the money, we call the shots and we should get all of our demands met.

[richpo64]

>>If it were up to me, I'd either let them fall flat and re-build the burnt, saved village OR give them the money only AFTER they've fired the execs who are there now, sold all private jets, hired new execs who only make a little bit more than union workers and have plans for a several different lines of electric and hybrid vehicles and discontinue any models that get under 40 mpg.<<

My father-in-law was a UAW guy. Worked for GM for just over 30 years. Did you know you can fit a fifth of bourbon in one of those old style lunch pales?



Turns out there was a lot of that going around. Then there's the guy they paid $25 an hours to push a broom. Now the auto industry spends millions of dollars to make sure AUW workers can get hard ons.

So sure, the auto execs deserve some of the blame, but so do those greedy unions who are responsible for raising the cost of living for everyone. As for making gas guzzlers, that's what people wanted. Have you looked at what's on the roads out there? The guy next door has two SUV's, a van, a sedan, and a jeep. People wanted them, until gas hit $4 of course.

[Brassmask]

Hey, Rich, trust me, I know the unions have too much pull.  My own old man was a Teamster and in the last year of his driving a truck for big shipping company, he got a lot slower and made some mistakes and the union fought to keep him on the job when he probably should have gotten fired.  I can understand how that is good for my dad but also how it is entirely unfair for the company he worked for.

But to your point, I agree the unions are partly to blame but the gas crisis was around in the '70's and they destroyed the electric car and went in completely the opposite direction even as people around the world were talking about "peak oil" and global warming.  Any executive of a company as large of any of the Big 3 would have been pushing designers towards a clean-burning vehicle or an electric vehicle. 

Toyota did it!  For a couple of years, Priuses were ordered and waited on.  Larry David was driving one on Curb Your Enthusiasm in like 2004, for god's sakes. 

From Wiki:

The Prius first went on sale in Japan in 1997, making it the first mass-produced hybrid vehicle. It was subsequently introduced worldwide in 2001. The Prius is sold in more than 40 countries and regions, with its largest markets being those of Japan and North America.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius

I mean, the minute that thing went international, the Big 3 should have gotten the hint.  So, I think a bailout now would be rewarding them for keeping us dependent on foreign oil and perpetrating global warming.  They should have been ahead of the wily Japanese.

[Xavier_Onassis]

My father-in-law was a UAW guy. Worked for GM for just over 30 years. Did you know you can fit a fifth of bourbon in one of those old style lunch pales?


You can fit a fifth of Blue Goose Vodka in an executive briefcase, too, and so what? From the photo it looks like someone may have fitted your father-in-law's remains in that particular lunch pail.

The guy next door has two SUV's, a van, a sedan, and a jeep. People wanted them, until gas hit $4 of course.
Why did people want them is the question. Because they were bombarded with advertising for them, because on nearly every TV show the stars drove them, because you can create a demand with advertising where none existed before, and no one knows this better than US companies. HSN is entirely based on selling crap people do not need. The guy next door to you may have a large family and need the van. The SUVs and the Jeep were sold because one or more of the males in the family were made to feel nutless in that van. Maybe he is even greedier than a UAW member.

Is there actually anyone who will tell a megamillinaier company they work for, "Naw, I am making enough already. I don;t need any raise this year." No one ever heard Roger Smith say those words when he was president of GM. He got a nice bonus every year, and every year GM lost market share, lost jobs and made really crappy cars.

I put wheels on Falcons and Comets at the Claycomo, MO assembly plant. I got $2.35 an hour for this, when the minimum was 80¢. I saved nearly all of it and made it through college nearly debt-free.  It was a lot harder work than the minimum wage job I had delivering prescriptions for a drugstore. But it was worth it.

Again, I am not for the bailout unless the Big Three are selling AND ADVERTISING something people will and should buy.
There are plenty of used SUVs around now for the remaining fools that are behind the curve to use to drive Becky-Sue to ballet class. I find the pickup trucks with a bed cover, 4WD and 19 inch wheels and skinny, skinny tires to be the most ridiculous things I have seen here in Miami.