Author Topic: extraordinary rendition  (Read 4027 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: extraordinary rendition
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2007, 01:28:32 AM »
Quote
It just wasn't anticipated that any of the set-backs would come from the U.S.A.

One might question whether your priority is implementing the Bill or Rights or bashing the US of A.

are the disenfranchised just pawns in your manifestation of hatred?



Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: extraordinary rendition
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2007, 01:35:08 AM »
<<You want to make it reality.

<<Tie membership and aid benefits into compliance and enforcement of the rights by member states. >>

It's not as easy as that.  There are issues of sovereignty that won't permit effective inspection and enforcement.  Most states will denounce torture, even those that practice it.  So because of the sovereignty issue, there's no real enforcement.  It's primarily an honour system, and there's a tremendous amount of stonewalling.  There's very little will to enforce the Declaration and particularly when political considerations come into play.  

When I was in Amnesty, during the Reagan years particularly, it was practically impossible to get the U.S. government to condemn any torture at all if it was being done by their client states in Latin America, but at least there was no suspicion that the U.S.A. itself was a torture state.  What meagre condemnation there was, the odd time it would occur, carried some weight.  Today it would be pointless to lobby the U.S. to denounce torture anywhere, the condemnation itself would provoke nothing more than hollow, cynical laughter.
 
 
 
 

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: extraordinary rendition
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2007, 01:42:28 AM »
<<One might question whether your priority is implementing the Bill or Rights or bashing the US of A. >>

One might. 

One might also question WHY I want to bash the US of A and WHOSE US of A I want to bash. 

One might also question why anyone WOULDN'T want to bash a state that tortures helpless prisoners, sometimes to death.


<<are the disenfranchised just pawns in your manifestation of hatred?>>

Unfortunately, they're more like the cause of it.


BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: extraordinary rendition
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2007, 02:05:08 AM »
Quote
It's not as easy as that.


Why not. Does membership not have value? Seems like the perfect application of a the carropt and the stick.


Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: extraordinary rendition
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2007, 02:18:18 AM »
Think about it.  Who's going to enforce a no-torture rule by kicking out the bad boys?  The U.S.A.?  And if anyone else tries to enforce the rule against another member, the question immediately becomes, "why us and not the U.S.A.?"   Right now there's no possibility of enforcing the ban on torture the way you suggested.

Even before Bush, it wouldn't have been possible.  The problem being, as I stated, sovereignty.  States won't admit to torture and won't admit or cooperate with inspectors who could prove it.

Also, you have to keep in mind the primary purpose of the UN was to provide an alternative to war.  Abolishing torture and declaring the rights of man, admirable as those goals are, are secondary in the UN's primary mandate.  On that theory, it would be better to have torture states inside the UN than out, if it meant that the probability of war was thereby diminished.


BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: extraordinary rendition
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2007, 02:24:18 AM »
Then why do you hold out hope that the UN is mankinds salvalvation when apparently there is no impedus to comply?


Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: extraordinary rendition
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2007, 09:59:48 AM »
<<Then why do you hold out hope that the UN is mankinds salvalvation when apparently there is no impedus to comply?>>

It's a good question.

First of all, because it's a new direction.  For thousands of years, international relations were basically (and still are) governed by the law of the jungle.  There was nothing to restrain a state from attacking another state except for superior force.  Wars grew more and more destructive.  The U.N. (and its predecessor the League of Nations) represents a new way where the old way has brought nothing but disaster.

Second, because it's logical.  The idea just makes sense.  Why shouldn't countries be able to talk out their differences in an international forum, with guidance, and possibly helpful commentary from other nations with no particular axe to grind?  Or even WITH an axe to grind?  What's the harm in talking?

Third, because there ARE enforcement mechanisms.  Your problem with them seems to be that they are weak and ineffectual.  My answer to that would be that any kind of international enforcement mechanism is bucking a five-thousand-year-old trend and it's just taking its first baby steps.   With time, they will become more effective, as the more powerful nations begin to see their advantages (see next paragraph.)

Fourth, I believe that the advantages of the stronger powers submitting to international law are only just now beginning to become apparent.  This is because of the diffusion of power throughout the world.  As knowledge and technology spread, prior advantages in raw power are levelling, albeit slowly.  In that regard, I think that 9-11 was a real eye-opener.  Fifty years ago, when the UN was in its infancy, who could have imagined that a band of fanatics as small as the al Qaeda commando could have inflicted such damage on the U.S.A., not necessarily the relatively small (yet unprecedented) toll of 3,000 dead and a few tall buildings, but the ever-escalating hundreds of billions of dollars necessitated by the reaction to them?  As the cost of suppressing these enemies continues to grow, the relentless effects of economic competition will make themselves felt.  Other countries not beset by the "terrorist" problems of the U.S. will inevitably grow in power and influence while the U.S.A. fights its economic battles against them with one hand only, while the other hand is busy batting off "terrorist" attacks or forestalling them.  The world's biggest practitioner of violent solutions will just find them no longer cost-effective.

And fifth, historical example.  Just as the battling kingdoms of the English heptarchy finally found it more expedient and immensely more profitable to unite under one common government and one common law, the same process will operate in the international sphere, albeit with much greater obstacles of language, culture and race.  It's just the (slow-motion) way of the future.  World government is coming and the UN is just the very first step.