DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Kramer on October 20, 2011, 10:51:45 PM
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Fantastic I hope I can help elect the first African American POTUS!!
Thomas Sowell: Herman Cain More Black Than Barack Obama
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/20/thomas_sowell_herman_cain_more_black_than_barack_obama.html (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/20/thomas_sowell_herman_cain_more_black_than_barack_obama.html)
“My gosh, he is certainly one of us far more so than Barack Obama. Raised in Hawaii and going to a private school, an expensive private school," economist Thomas Sowell said on FOX Business.
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Al Sharpton on yesterday's Daily Show made pretty much the same point - - Cain was "blacker," being a Southern black and having no interracial parents.
However, he also said that he wouldn't vote for Cain if he were running against a white man, (when, presumably it would be easier to vote for Cain against a white than for Cain against Obama.) This drew a laugh, because it was obvious that Sharpton was partially kidding - - he'd obviously have to vote for Cain if the white man running against him were the Grand Dragon of the KKK.
He didn't feel Cain has a hope in hell of peeling off black votes from Obama for at least three things that Cain said early in his campaign, the first being that most blacks were brainwashed and ignorant, the next two being equally stupid and ugly, but I forget what they were. That 999 tax is starting to look dumber and dumber and it's hung like an albatross around Cain's neck. He's having a lot of trouble defending it in the debates and is starting to look stupid under pressure. But at this point I can't see him abandoning it without humiliating himself.
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Uncle Thomas Sowell is hardly any authority on Black people.
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Calling someone an Uncle Tom is a racist statement.
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An irony that was lost on me in my first reading. Thanks, XO. Too true. However, be prepared to be called out as a racist by our friends, who have no problem with the racism of Trent Lott and his ilk, but are quick to take offense when a real, honest-to-goodness Uncle Tom is called out.
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If it makes you happy, when Trent Lott calls Cain or Sowell or any other black man an Uncle Tom, I'll be glad to call him on it
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MT-
So there is some racism that doesn't bother you ?
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<<If it makes you happy, when Trent Lott calls Cain or Sowell or any other black man an Uncle Tom, I'll be glad to call him on it>>
Never happen, they're both his team's Uncle Toms.
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<< MT-
<< So there is some racism that doesn't bother you ?>>
Cleverly put, plane, but no, I am against racism in all its forms. I just don't consider calling out an Uncle Tom to be racism. There will always be white racists and there will always be pathetic turncoats among the racial group targeted. It happened under slavery and it's happening still today. The fight against racism has to be conducted against all racists, including the Uncle Tom collaborators. Attempts to dignify the Uncle Toms as "independent" need to be shown up for what they are, just bolstering one of the useful tools that a modern racist needs in his crusade against those of a different skin colour.
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You don't consider it racist, because you are the one using it, and you can't the racist, because you are liberal.
Do you know why Sowell even weighed in on the issue? Because lily white pundits like Larry O' Donnell from MSNBC have the balls to say Herman Cain is not an authentic Negro.
nigga please
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<<You don't consider it racist, because you are the one using it, and you can't the racist, because you are liberal.>>
Exactly.
<<Do you know why Sowell even weighed in on the issue? Because lily white pundits like Larry O' Donnell from MSNBC have the balls to say Herman Cain is not an authentic Negro. >>
NOBODY sez Cain's not an authentic Negro, and Sharpton even said he (Cain) was blacker than Obama. He also said that he wouldn't vote for Cain even if he were running against a white man. His skin colour is not the issue, it's his Tom-ness that is.
I didn't hear what O'Donnell said, but I seriously doubt it was so idiotic as to cast doubt on Cain's authenticity as a black. He's an authentic black Uncle Tom and if O'Donnell didn't say that, I am sure that's what he meant.
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The entire issue of who is an "authentic Black man" is absurd, unless you want to get into DNA analysis, which would also be absurd, because this "authenticity" bit is not genetic, it is cultural.
Cain and Sowell are authentically Black. Sowell is paid to be an official rightwing Uncle Tom. Cain is a self-made uncle Tom. Sowell is not worth listening to, and Cain is not worth voting for, at least for me.
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I'm glad to see that everyone is playing their assigned role.
BSB
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And neither Cain nor Sowell would be called Uncle Toms unless that was racially based and they deviated from the expected stereotype for that race.
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It is absurd for White people to discuss the authenticity of Black people.
I observe that I have never heard any Black people discuss which White people were a "credit to their race" other than in jest.
However it is not racist to state that Sowell sucks up to the establishment. Cain actually thinks he is a member of the Oligarchy.
It is a free country, so they can do this.
And because it is a free country, I can ignore both of them.
And I will. Neither will govern this country. And that is fortunate.
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just wondering if anyone here recalls the film Hollywood Shuffle, where black actors who speak just like everyone else come to an acting school run by Jewish coaches to learn how to speak black for the movies. Hilarious scene, especially where this one straight-arrow black guy is schooled in the correct intonations of "muthafucka." Highly recommended.
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Uncle Thomas Sowell is hardly any authority on Black people.
WoW, thanks for confirming my suspicions.
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Uncle Thomas Sowell is hardly any authority on Black people.
Lemme guess.....you're white.....and an authority on how a Black man is not an authority on Black people?
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I am also an authority on how you are not an authority on what I am an authority about.
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Are you white?? If so, how does that make you an authority on Black people??
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In the case of Tomas Sowell, I simply state that a flunky sucking up to the Oligarchy is quite easy to spot. If he were White, Chinese or something other than Black, they would never have hired his sorry butt.
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I'm glad to see that everyone is playing their assigned role.
BSB
You as well. A future act, coming soon, will have you come unglued and then start with the name-calling. Then crying to BT, that this place sucks and he doesn't run it right and then you will start with the victim stuff and on and on and on. Sound about right?
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In the case of Tomas Sowell, I simply state that a flunky sucking up to the Oligarchy is quite easy to spot. If he were White, Chinese or something other than Black, they would never have hired his sorry butt.
So you're not black, yet claim to be an authority on how a Black man can't be an authority on being black, much less an authority on the hiring practices of his employer. Can't get much more arrogant than that, I guess. Try not to make a mess with the continued racist comments
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<<So you're not black, yet claim to be an authority on how a Black man can't be an authority on being black, much less an authority on the hiring practices of his employer. Can't get much more arrogant than that, I guess. >>
Look sirs, try to look at it like this: most guys don't have tits, but that doesn't stop them from assessing the racks on passing women.
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<<So you're not black, yet claim to be an authority on how a Black man can't be an authority on being black, much less an authority on the hiring practices of his employer. Can't get much more arrogant than that, I guess. >>
Look sirs, try to look at it like this: most guys don't have tits, but that doesn't stop them from assessing the racks on passing women.
Assessing racks is one thing, calling them whores is quite another.
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BINGO
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BINGO
I love it when you and BT agree.
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The planets must be in alignment 8)
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There is no BINGO.
Just the dull thud of sirs being wrong.
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There is no BINGO.
Just the dull thud of sirs being wrong.
so let me get this straight, as long as the black man stays on your plantation and follow your rules he isn't an Uncle Tom but God forbid he strays off the reservation, and has his own opinion, then it's OK for you to use racial slurs against him? Does that sum it up?
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There is no BINGO. Just the dull thud of sirs being wrong.
Your forgot to add Bt to who is supposedly thuddingly wrong, since it was him to whom I was simply agreeing with. Why's that, I wonder
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<<Assessing racks is one thing, calling them whores is quite another. >>
If it's obvious that one of them is a whore, nothing wrong with making that observation either. You'd have to be stupid NOT to notice.
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Obvious to who?......the misogynist?......the racist?
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If it's obvious that one of them is a whore, nothing wrong with making that observation either. You'd have to be stupid NOT to notice.
Next, we'll hear you saying "well she dressed that way, so she deserved it!"
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None of these black individuals has to apologize for how they make their living, or what side of the political divide they're on, or the amount of African blood they have, or don't have, in them. The black community, through no fault of its own, has been arguing amongst themselves for generations over light skin vs dark skin and what it says, or means, or how it helps, or hinders. It's too bad some have a need to continue it. The color of a persons skin doesn't really have anything to do with how "black" they are. A lot of white folks are "black" through and through. If you understand the human condition you're "black". If you know about pain, and loss, and disappointment, and rejection, you're "black". If you can express all that and carry yourself with dignity and grace at the same time, well, you're "black".
BSB
P.S. On the other hand, WeWe is a nigger. But that's another conversation for another day.
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<<Next, we'll hear you saying "well she dressed that way, so she deserved it!">>
Gee, who knew? Why don't you start the clock running now and we'll just wait and see how long it takes for your prediction to come true. (Don't hold your breath.)
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who is wewe?
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Who is We We?
Master: "Does a dog have Buddha nature?"
Reply: "Mu"
What is Mu? Who is We We?
Don't know.
Don't know mind.
Don't make anything.
Just straight ahead. Don't know mind.
Who are you?
Don't know.
What are you?
Don't know.
What is Mu?
Don't know.
Who is We We?
Don't make anything. Just straight ahead, don't know mind.
BSB
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It is absurd for White people to discuss the authenticity of Black people.
We don't mind absurdity all that much .
Are" Authenticity" discussions equivelent in absurdity to "Unkle Tom" discussions?I observe that I have never heard any Black people discuss which White people were a "credit to their race" other than in jest.
Is this impossible? Can a white person do somethng that reflects well on whiteness?
However it is not racist to state that Sowell sucks up to the establishment. Cain actually thinks he is a member of the Oligarchy.
It is a free country, so they can do this.
And because it is a free country, I can ignore both of them.
And I will. Neither will govern this country. And that is fortunate.
I guess you wouldn't like them as white guys either, but would we be talking of them the same way?
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Trailer NA WEWE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lJWgCKREg#ws)
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"Mu" means that the question cannot be answered either way.
I do not know who "We We" is.
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"Mu" means that the question cannot be answered either way.
I do not know who "We We" is.
I think BT put up a video of WeWE. I guess BSB thinks they are all a bunch of Ni#$ers.
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IIRC, wee wee was a member of this group on the right edge of the spectrum who BSB took a dislike to because he was basically a civilian war-monger. I don't remember if wee wee is one of the current group or not.
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Good memory. You are correct. He called Richpo WeWe. I don't know why he's throwing around the N-word, though.
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That's right, it was Richpo. How could I forget? He threatened my life twice on-line and THEN he called in the FBI on my case. Wow, those were the days! Passion. Fire. Drama. Flaming keyboards. It was better than Donkey Kong.
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Good memory. You are correct. He called Richpo WeWe. I don't know why he's throwing around the N-word, though.
don't forget if you are black you can use the word without any repercussions.
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XO: >> "Mu" means that the question cannot be answered either way.<<
No. "Mu" cannot be defined intellectually. You can't say Mu is this or that, or that it means this or that. You have to live with a koan. Some monks will use one koan for an entire lifetime.
What is it getting at? If you say that so and so is an Uncle Tom for example, you'll miss the target. It will lead your mind astray. You will be making something that isn't really there. If you want to see that person for who he is more directly you have to use "don't know" mind. The "Does a dog have Buddha nature?"...... "Mu", koan, will lead you to don't know mind. But if you define Mu, you'll get nowhere.
You can't define life intellectually. You can't control it. You can however know it, but only if your mind is set on "don't know".
The We We mystery. No, We We wasn't Richpo. It was/is a poster who used to say, We this, and We that all the time instead of I this and I that. I took to calling him We We. As for the use of the word nigger? "Mu".
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Okay, how about this: 'Mu means"unask the question."
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Yeah, but your mind is still moving.
BSB
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Yeah, but your mind is still moving.
BSB
nobody cares about your childish riddles.
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Yeah, but your mind is still moving.
BSB
nobody cares about your childish riddles.
Don't speak for me , Mu seems very interesting, if interesting doesn't ruin it.
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"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" Socrates
Socrates understood don't know mind. He found his own Mu to get there.
BSB
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Kramer "Nobody cares about......"
That's why I call him "We We". He thinks he speaks for everyone.
BSB
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<<"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" Socrates
<<Socrates understood don't know mind. He found his own Mu to get there. >>
That's just bullshit. Socrates considered himself the wisest man in Athens because he alone knew that he knew nothing. But he used that one essential precept as a jumping-off point to examine the question "What is knowledge?" and establish the study of how we know what we know, starting from zero, which eventually led to the formulation of the scientific method.
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Socrates was clearly not telling the truth when he claimed he knew nothing. I suppose what he meant is that all truth must be derived personally, from life experience, and then be evaluated methodically.
It is rather like Descartes saying that he knew nothing at the start, EXCEPT that he was thinking and later saying that God must exist and the entire Roman Catholic religion was true because he had a belief in God and the entire Christian religion in his mind, and God was the only thing that have put it there. The actual fact is that Descartes was brainwashed as a child (which is how most people come to be believers) and that had he been born and raised in Mongolia by Mongolians or in Tasmania by Aborigines, there is NO WAY he would have had Roman Catholic beliefs.
I suspect that both Socrates and Descartes were clever enough to know what they were saying, and assuming that their interlocutors did not, or would not challenge them. Descartes, of course, published posthumously, and Socrates published nothing.
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Approaching life's situations aware that you know nothing is not at all the same as not learning. In fact the only way you can get close to the truth of a situation is to approaching it not knowing.
Snowblower>> "That's bullshit......"
See, that's how you react when you think you know. That's the real bullshit. Just read Blowers posts on the Gaddafi killing. Pure bullshit.
BSB
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<<See, that's how you react when you think you know. That's the real bullshit. >>
No, that's how you react when you see bullshit and you know it's bullshit. Sorry, but that is just how it is. The statement about Socrates was a perfect example of a well-known statement taken totally out of context. So I called you on it. NBD.
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Your words blower "which eventually lead to the scientific method."
The scientific method starts with observing things as they are/occur not from a position of "knowing" but from a position of not knowing. That's the whole point of "don't know mind". Socrates understood that. Viewing the world from a position of not knowing doesn't mean you don't know anything. Duh. You're proving my point all over the place.
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I think we're both in agreement on Socrates although failing to communicate it to one another. As far as inductive reasoning was concerned, yes, you start with no preconceptions, or as you put it, from a position of knowing nothing.
I might have missed the Eastern position of knowing nothing. I took it to be the alpha and the omega position, i.e., we start off knowing nothing and don't bother trying to learn about the physical world because it's all an illusion anyway, so you'll never really know it no matter what you try to do to grasp it. THAT was where I saw the fundamental gap between Socrates' admission that he knew nothing (which he took as the jumping-off point to real knowledge) and the Eastern position on knowing nothing, which I interpret as "We don't know and we CAN'T know, so don't bother."
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Yeah, you're off on the Buddhist position.
Korean Zen uses "don't know mind." so I'll use that. And by the way I went over this in my first post to XO's definition of "Mu".
If you want to get to the "suchness" of something, racism, the universe, whatever, you have to come at it from "don't know mind". If you start right up using concepts, labels, notions, etc., your mind is building something that isn't there. You'll never get to the truth of it. Don't know mind is used to get to the reality of life, the suchness of things, it's not for thinking, oh fuck it, who knows? Its the same as Socrates wisdom of not knowing and serves in many ways the same purpose.
Now, did Socrates cultivate his mind using a more intellectual method than the Buddhists use? Maybe, but that would be tough to prove. I do know someone who is pretty knowledgeable on Socrates maybe I'll run it by him. He'd have an opinion no doubt, it's up his alley. I know how the Buddhists get there, and so does he.
BSB
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I'm not even sure that racism is something that I could grasp the "suchness" of. Suppose that "racism" isn't one unified approach to life but a congeries of similar but distinctively different attitudes related to various aspects of race. Suppose one "racist" just has an illogical physical aversion to black people, whereas another has a whole pseudo-scientific approach related to "superior" and "inferior" races and the need of the "superior" race to keep its bloodlines pure, and a third guy is just seeing the whole thing in societal terms based on competition for work or women? There wouldn't be any "suchness" to racism, only to each of the three or four attitudes.
And sometimes it's just the "suchness" of an individual southerner's take on current events - - why does the guy think like that? What is the "suchness" of BT or plane, for example? HOW MUCH of it is "racism," however racism is defined in the circumstances?
But the bigger question of course is once you come to the problem with open mind, no preconceptions, what's your next step? Where do you go FROM the open-mind contemplation? Getting back to our original exchange, that's where I saw the "open-mind" as a kind of dead end. Socrates, or at least the scientific method that grew out of his inquiries, at least had a multi-stage system of inquiries (form a theory, design and conduct experiment, observe results, draw conclusion) that keeps you moving forward from the initial empty-mind stage.
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Shit, well, it's my fault. See we're already in trouble. I introduced a concept, racism, and now our minds are off to the races, no pun intended.
It's too late here now, I'll tackle this tomorrow.
BSB
"As soon as you open your mouth you're fucked." The Buddha (rough translation)
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One more thing. A student of a well known Zen master, whose name escapes me at the moment, wrote a book about this Master using direct quotes from student, master, conversations. It was a highly researched, and very well written book.
Before publishing it the student/author showed the book to this/his Zen Master. The Master thumbed it briefly, and tossed it in the fire saying, you shouldn't have written it. He continued, see now people will get attached to all the words in the book and never get to "don't know mind."
Anyway, the book was published. It's a great guide, I've read it, and it's fortunate the student didn't take his teachers advice in this case. But that's an example of how seriously these Zen monks take this stuff.
BSB
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Carry clean water in a muddy bucket.
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There wouldn't be any "suchness" to racism, only to each of the three or four attitudes.
And sometimes it's just the "suchness" of an individual southerner's take on current events - - why does the guy think like that? What is the "suchness" of BT or plane, for example? HOW MUCH of it is "racism," however racism is defined in the circumstances?
Do you examine a southerner in the same terms as you would ...a goblin?
http://www.goblinscomic.com/10142005/ (http://www.goblinscomic.com/10142005/)
The catagory you place this creature in holds more importance to you than the individual creature.
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Water that appears clean on visual inspection could harbour deadly bacteria. If it comes muddy, you'll never drink it without boiling it first and if it comes looking clean, you might drink it first without boiling?
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Does this mean that an obvious racism is a lessor threat than a stubtle racism? Perhaps a racism you could have internalised without knowing ?
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<<Do you examine a southerner in the same terms as you would ...a goblin?>>
On the internet nobody knows you're a dog - - or a goblin or a southerner. I got to know you, plane, over the internet. You're the only southerner I know; haven't met any dogs or goblins yet, far as I know.
At first I didn't know you were a southerner. I didn't start to "examine" you, but facts about you began to build up. Not necessarily in the following order, I learned about you: you were a strong supporter of the U.S. military; had served in the U.S. Navy and seen the world (but not in combat;) had Confederate ancestors and were actually quite proud of them; admired the U.S.A. and its role in world politics even after WWII; hated communism and socialism; belonged to a labour union; lived in Georgia and still hated General Sherman; were extremely gracious, polite and diplomatic; a real devotee of the Christian religion, which I'd always felt was a lot of pagan blasphemy with a nice ethical overlay that they almost never observed in their interracial or foreign relations . . .
I never really examined you, but the facts just kept coming in. And then at some point, I began to connect the dots: the picture began to look like what I had learned of the white southerners, none of whom I'd ever really met, though I'd passed through their region two or three times, starting with a road trip from Toronto to Miami Beach that I'd been taken on in 1948-1949 over the Christmas holidays, and of course, I'd read William Faulkner and Ernest Caldwell and all the MSM that streamed out of the South in the Fifties and Sixties. You were a southerner and many of your (to me) bizarre ideas began to become sort of natural, at least in terms of the person holding them. Right or wrong, that's the extent of how I "examined" - - or IF I examined - - a southerner. I found it a very interesting experience, and I hope I've properly thanked you for your openness and willingness to share ideas with me over the years.
BSB suggests coming to the subject with a "know-nothing" mind, a blank slate. I didn't actually do that, but then as our on-line relationship developed, I didn't really know in the beginning that I was examining you. BSB would probably say, that was my failure to be aware of what I was actually doing at the time that I was doing it. But IMHO, that requires a superhuman effort, a non-stop watchfulness that can be maintained only after lengthy training and then only imperfectly. The concept of "know-nothing" mind is interesting, but it seems like an unattainable goal for North Americans who live the way we do. Seems to me like the only practical way is to forge ahead with the tools we have, making mistakes along the way and corrcting for the errors as we become aware of them. Messy.
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Shit, well, it's my fault. See we're already in trouble. I introduced a concept, racism, and now our minds are off to the races, no pun intended.
It's too late here now, I'll tackle this tomorrow.
BSB
"As soon as you open your mouth you're fucked." The Buddha (rough translation)
Consider this: Nobody here crams their religion down other peoples throats like you.
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Consider this little We We. This is an internet forum. It isn't a place. There's no "here" here, asshole. While you maybe so desperate as to think of this place as a real place, it ain't. This is just a place to scribble and compare notes. Nor is Buddhism a religion, ya control freak.
BSB
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Consider this little We We. This is an internet forum. It isn't a place. There's no "here" here, asshole. While you maybe so desperate as to think of this place as a real place, it ain't. This is just a place to scribble and compare notes. Nor is Buddhism a religion, ya control freak.
BSB
Put Buddha where the sun don't shine.
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Put Buddha where the sun don't shine.
==================================
There is a snappy comeback, if ever there was one.
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Put Buddha where the sun don't shine.
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There is a snappy comeback, if ever there was one.
It beats calling a black man an Uncle Tom like you have repeatably done the last few days.
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Except that if you look up "Uncle Tom" in a dictionary, there is Thomas Sowell's picture. His parents knew he was a Tom when they named their dear little cherub "Thomas".
I imagine he has some nephews, as well.
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So, all this time, he's been your Uncle, and you didn't tell us?
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<<Do you examine a southerner in the same terms as you would ...a goblin?>>
On the internet nobody knows you're a dog - - or a goblin or a southerner. I got to know you, plane, over the internet. You're the only southerner I know; haven't met any dogs or goblins yet, far as I know.
At first I didn't know you were a southerner. I didn't start to "examine" you, but facts about you began to build up..........
Wow, what a great post!
I am most of the time unaware that I bear the stains of Faulkner and sometimes I forget that Northerners don't consider General Sherman a monster.
But this is right on topic!
What I have as heritage makes some diffrence to me and a diffrent diffrence to you, I have seldom seen the measure made so well .
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Sherman was the judgment of God on an immeasurably evil people and their rotten slave-built society.
"He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword." Sherman was that sword. The South reaped what it sowed.
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Sherman was the judgment of God on an immeasurably evil people and their rotten slave-built society.
Thus Occupy Wall Street or do you think Northern Fortunes were not also built on the backs of slaves?
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An evil people?
Were the English , Spanish , Portugese and Arabs less so when they were running slave operations?
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<<Were the English , Spanish , Portugese and Arabs less so [less evil] when they were running slave operations?>>
They were plenty evil then, but then they saw the error of their ways and voluntarily gave it up. At least, the English did. They acted on their conscience. Don't know about the others, just don't know that it took a war to make them give up slavery. The South clung to slavery to the bitter end and even AFTER the bitter end they clung to Jim Crow for another hundred years. Hard to imagine a people more evil than they. I can still remember the lynching of Emmett Till. They gouged out his eyes. A 14-year-old boy. And got off. No white jury would convict them. The whole of white Southern society supported them. Tell me that's not an evil society. They were fucking monsters. And that was a long time AFTER Nathan Bedford Forrest and General Sherman.
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Has any non christian society ever stopped trading in slaves?