Author Topic: warming "very likely"  (Read 8652 times)

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Lyndon

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2007, 05:49:14 PM »
Quote
Lyndon says:The point is this is a global issue.

Then why on earth would you exempt close to 1/3 of the earths population from Kyoto?

Doesn't make sense.



Hmmmmmm, I have to say you have a slight advantage over me here. It is close to my bedtime, I have just returned from dinner and a couple of drinks, and I am unable to recollect where I did imply that. But let me see if I can give this a go and I hope you will be generous enough to give me a second go round tomorrow if I am completely wrong.

I seem to have said this: "Ultimately India and China should not be exempt from Kyoto or it's successor treaty."

You replied: "Talk to me when they are no longer exempt. "

I replied "What steps should the primary emission emitters be taking to bring India and China on board? Seems to me talks are stalled on that point. In the meantime it seems some people are certainly doing what they can in their own way, as are individual states, provinces, regional and state national governments. More power to them. I hope we do not lose sight of the fact that without global governmental cooperation individual efforts, while good and well meaning, are sabotaged if the global will does not exist to act in harmony to combat what is a global problem."

You replied:" Looks like you think the solution is a top down one. Seems to me all long lasting sea changes in attitudes come from the bottom up.
You want to change the world. Do it in chunks you can digest."

I replied: "The point is this is a global issue. The IPCC report recognises this. Many individuals, regional, state and national governments and some international bodies recognise this. Those same individuals, regional, state and national governments are doing their little chunks in a digestible manner. Much of that is coming from the bottom up. But, at what point do we recognise that if our individual, local efforts are not supported on a global, intergovernmental level, then our efforts will be subsumed and overwhelmed by global inertia? Why not combine the bottom up approach with a top down approach? Does it have to be one or the other? Bottom up alone is not going to cut it, laudable and necessary as it is without a recognition of the problem from the top down."

Conclusion

So, what I said and what I believe are that India and China should be part of either the Kyoto Treaty or whatever its logical successor is (Kyoto may not be the end all and probably will not be). Where did I not say that was the case? Do you agree? I do and I think we should all persuade our rising Giants and potential superpowers to partake in our global debate. I firmly add we cannot expect their cooperation if we, those who have it already, (not singling out US, as I already made clear), do not lead by example. The thrust of your argument seems to be 'If they do not do it why should we?"; The thrust of my argument is " We recognize there is a problem. What should we do to help lead all players on board? That is where our focus should be.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 05:55:28 PM by Lyndon »

BT

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2007, 06:59:40 PM »
If the problem is global the solution should be global. And if a governing body does come up with a palatable plan to halt emissions and reverse trends then all countries should be impacted. Anything else is a deal breaker.

In the meantime there is nothing stopping member nations from setting target thresholds and facillitating retooling to achieve those goals.

And there is nothing stopping Lyndon in the UK or BT in the US from adopting energy conscious technology to lessen their own contribution to the problems.


BT

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2007, 07:10:48 PM »
For what it is worth:

The real deal?
Against the grain: Some scientists deny global warming exists
 
Lawrence Solomon
National Post


Friday, February 02, 2007


 
CREDIT: AFP Getty
ice
 
Astrophysicist Nir Shariv, one of Israel's top young scientists, describes the logic that led him -- and most everyone else -- to conclude that SUVs, coal plants and other things man-made cause global warming.


Step One Scientists for decades have postulated that increases in carbon dioxide and other gases could lead to a greenhouse effect.


Step Two As if on cue, the temperature rose over the course of the 20th century while greenhouse gases proliferated due to human activities.


Step Three No other mechanism explains the warming. Without another candidate, greenhouses gases necessarily became the cause.



The series

Statistics needed -- The Deniers Part I
Warming is real -- and has benefits -- The Deniers Part II
The hurricane expert who stood up to UN junk science -- The Deniers Part III
Polar scientists on thin ice -- The Deniers Part IV
The original denier: into the cold -- The Deniers Part V
The sun moves climate change -- The Deniers Part VI
Will the sun cool us? -- The Deniers Part VII
The limits of predictability -- The Deniers Part VIII
Look to Mars for the truth on global warming -- The Deniers Part IX
Limited role for C02 -- the Deniers Part X


Dr. Shariv, a prolific researcher who has made a name for himself assessing the movements of two-billion-year-old meteorites, no longer accepts this logic, or subscribes to these views. He has recanted: "Like many others, I was personally sure that CO2 is the bad culprit in the story of global warming. But after carefully digging into the evidence, I realized that things are far more complicated than the story sold to us by many climate scientists or the stories regurgitated by the media.

"In fact, there is much more than meets the eye."



Dr. Shariv's digging led him to the surprising discovery that there is no concrete evidence -- only speculation -- that man-made greenhouse gases cause global warming. Even research from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change-- the United Nations agency that heads the worldwide effort to combat global warming -- is bereft of anything here inspiring confidence. In fact, according to the IPCC's own findings, man's role is so uncertain that there is a strong possibility that we have been cooling, not warming, the Earth. Unfortunately, our tools are too crude to reveal what man's effect has been in the past, let alone predict how much warming or cooling we might cause in the future.

All we have on which to pin the blame on greenhouse gases, says Dr. Shaviv, is "incriminating circumstantial evidence," which explains why climate scientists speak in terms of finding "evidence of fingerprints." Circumstantial evidence might be a fine basis on which to justify reducing greenhouse gases, he adds, "without other 'suspects.' " However, Dr. Shaviv not only believes there are credible "other suspects," he believes that at least one provides a superior explanation for the 20th century's warming.

"Solar activity can explain a large part of the 20th-century global warming," he states, particularly because of the evidence that has been accumulating over the past decade of the strong relationship that cosmic- ray flux has on our atmosphere. So much evidence has by now been amassed, in fact, that "it is unlikely that [the solar climate link] does not exist."

The sun's strong role indicates that greenhouse gases can't have much of an influence on the climate -- that C02 et al. don't dominate through some kind of leveraging effect that makes them especially potent drivers of climate change. The upshot of the Earth not being unduly sensitive to greenhouse gases is that neither increases nor cutbacks in future C02 emissions will matter much in terms of the climate.

Even doubling the amount of CO2 by 2100, for example, "will not dramatically increase the global temperature," Dr. Shaviv states. Put another way: "Even if we halved the CO2 output, and the CO2 increase by 2100 would be, say, a 50% increase relative to today instead of a doubled amount, the expected reduction in the rise of global temperature would be less than 0.5C. This is not significant."

The evidence from astrophysicists and cosmologists in laboratories around the world, on the other hand, could well be significant. In his study of meteorites, published in the prestigious journal, Physical Review Letters, Dr. Shaviv found that the meteorites that Earth collected during its passage through the arms of the Milky Way sustained up to 10% more cosmic ray damage than others. That kind of cosmic ray variation, Dr. Shaviv believes, could alter global temperatures by as much as 15% --sufficient to turn the ice ages on or off and evidence of the extent to which cosmic forces influence Earth's climate.

In another study, directly relevant to today's climate controversy, Dr. Shaviv reconstructed the temperature on Earth over the past 550 million years to find that cosmic ray flux variations explain more than two-thirds of Earth's temperature variance, making it the most dominant climate driver over geological time scales. The study also found that an upper limit can be placed on the relative role of CO2 as a climate driver, meaning that a large fraction of the global warming witnessed over the past century could not be due to CO2 -- instead it is attributable to the increased solar activity.

CO2 does play a role in climate, Dr. Shaviv believes, but a secondary role, one too small to preoccupy policymakers. Yet Dr. Shaviv also believes fossil fuels should be controlled, not because of their adverse affects on climate but to curb pollution.

"I am therefore in favour of developing cheap alternatives such as solar power, wind, and of course fusion reactors (converting Deuterium into Helium), which we should have in a few decades, but this is an altogether different issue." His conclusion: "I am quite sure Kyoto is not the right way to go."

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=156df7e6-d490-41c9-8b1f-106fef8763c6&k=0

Lyndon

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2007, 08:13:59 PM »
If the problem is global the solution should be global. And if a governing body does come up with a palatable plan to halt emissions and reverse trends then all countries should be impacted. Anything else is a deal breaker.

In the meantime there is nothing stopping member nations from setting target thresholds and facillitating retooling to achieve those goals.

And there is nothing stopping Lyndon in the UK or BT in the US from adopting energy conscious technology to lessen their own contribution to the problems.



"If the problem is global the solution should be global."

Agreed in principle. Your main beef seems to be that India and China should not be exempt. In fact India did sign and ratify Kyoto in 2002, though it is exempted from the mainframework of he Treaty. India seeks to rely on the  principle of common but differentiated responsibility, ie, the major responsibility rests with those who have accumulated emmissions over a long period. China could rely on the same principle but I do not know whether it seeks to. Does USA accept and give credence to that argument?

"In the meantime there is nothing stopping member nations from setting target thresholds and facillitating retooling to achieve those goals."

If I am not mistaken some 100 plus countries are doing this.


"And there is nothing stopping Lyndon in the UK or BT in the US from adopting energy conscious technology to lessen their own contribution to the problems."

I am slightly further East but you are close. Yes, did we not already agree on that point? Without looking back I am not sure, but I thought we already discussed personal responsibility and agreed.

BT

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2007, 09:49:32 PM »
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Does USA accept and give credence to that argument?

I do not speak for the US, if i did, i would not accept it.

Religious Dick

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2007, 10:08:30 PM »
"Solar activity can explain a large part of the 20th-century global warming," he states, particularly because of the evidence that has been accumulating over the past decade of the strong relationship that cosmic- ray flux has on our atmosphere. So much evidence has by now been amassed, in fact, that "it is unlikely that [the solar climate link] does not exist."

I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if that turned out to be the case.

Supporting that view, comparable global warming has been observed on other planets in the solar system. If you're looking for a common denominator, solar activity is an obvious suspect.
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Lyndon

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2007, 02:25:48 AM »
For what it is worth:

The real deal?
Against the grain: Some scientists deny global warming exists
 
Lawrence Solomon
National Post


Friday, February 02, 2007


 
CREDIT: AFP Getty Astrophysicist Nir Shariv, one of Israel's top young scientists, describes the logic that led him -- and most everyone else
 


I was pretty much tempted to stop reading this article after I read this in the very first sentence:

Astrophysicist Nir Shariv, one of Israel's top young scientists, describes the logic that led him -- and most everyone else




BT

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2007, 02:43:10 AM »
Did you read the article anyway?

Plane

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2007, 03:17:01 AM »
I understand that most of the signaory countrys are haveing a lot of troubble meeting goals.


http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=12294


I don't know that governmental action is the right place to start , it was never governmental action that made us burn so much coal or gas .
I would expect the government role tob peripheral .

Amianthus

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2007, 08:58:29 AM »
I was pretty much tempted to stop reading this article after I read this in the very first sentence:

Astrophysicist Nir Shariv, one of Israel's top young scientists, describes the logic that led him -- and most everyone else

Here's the rest of the quote:

the logic that led him -- and most everyone else -- to conclude that SUVs, coal plants and other things man-made cause global warming.

So, do you deny that humans have an effect on global warming?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Lyndon

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Re: warming "very likely"
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2007, 12:22:26 PM »
Did you read the article anyway?


As you took the trouble to post the article in a thread in which I was participating I would have considered it discourteous of myself not to have taken the time to read it. More than that, I read it a second time as my comprehension of the article on first reading clearly left something to be desired as Amianthus has demonstrated.

Amianthus: Appreciate the catch. Future late night / early morning postings will be considered only under strict medical supervision.