Author Topic: A Tragic Prediction  (Read 10795 times)

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sirs

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2011, 12:27:57 AM »
Perfect proportions.  Small for Phelps, large for the Imam.  I thank you for sharing them
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2011, 12:37:42 AM »
No problem

How's that quest for outrage going?

sirs

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2011, 12:45:36 AM »
Still waiting
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2011, 01:01:39 AM »
Patience is a virtue.

sirs

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2011, 01:38:43 AM »
While confusion remains a current reality.  This is actual legislation being proposed, not merely that they shouldn't build it so close.....I mean protest so close.  If this were NY, this would be beyond bigotry and intolerance.  This is actual legislation

So, why doesn't Rev Phelps get the same latitude as that Imam?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 02:19:32 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Stray Pooch

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2011, 08:23:33 PM »
Sirs:  The analogy that you use here is flawed.  I see your point, but I disagree with it. 

Your basic premise is that if Muslims can build a Mosque (ICC or whatever) near Ground Zero then WBC should be able to hold protests near a child's funeral.  You suggest that the expression of religious freedom by building an edifice is equal to the expression of religious freedom by protesting.  You further assert that proximity to Ground Zero is analagous to proximity to the funeral.

I disagree with both analogies.  Building a Mosque, Church, Temple, Cultural Center or what have you is a normal function of any religious organization.  It is a maintenance activity, if you will.  If someone is building a church in your neighborhood, you would not take any special note of it.  You MIGHT be more interested if it were a Mosque, or a Mormon Temple, or a Church of Scientology or some other controversial sect simply because of the controversy itself.  But there is nothing inherently offensive about raising a religious edifice.  Protesting in a very disgusting way is, however, not a normal "maintenance" activity.  It is an active attempt to disrupt proceedings, draw attention to your cause, and actively confront others.  It is INTENTIONALLY in-your-face, while church building is only incidentally so (if at all).  So I do not agree that building a Mosque is analogous to protest activities.

For the second point, proximity to an area which has a special meaning is not analogous to proximity to a specific activity.  The former, even if intentional, is simply choosing a location.  The latter is choosing an ACTIVITY.  The protest would have no significance if it were held in the same place a day later.  it is targetting a PERSON (in this case the child) instead of an organization - such as a government or a religion - or perhaps a policy.  As such, it is far more offensive than than simply building an edifice.

FTR I support, however reluctantly, the WBC's right to protest at funerals on first amendement grounds.  I do not, however, equate the actions of the WBC iwith those of the members of a faith simply trying to build a place of worship and cultural information.  The latter activity I find to be appropriate, resposnsible and positive, even though some find the location distasteful.  The former has no merit whatsoever, and may be defended only on the grounds that even idiots have the right to speak.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

sirs

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2011, 09:19:05 PM »
But see Pooch, you've missed the point that makes the analogies dead on.  No one is arguing that folks can't build a religious center, as it is a normal "maintanance function" of a religious organization nor don't have a 1st amendment right to build it as a part of practicing their religion.  No one is arguing folks don't have a 1st amendment right to protest

The point is the locations.  You kinda referenced them, then pushed them asided to explain why the analogies are flawed.  I agree, if you remove the location component, there is no analogy.  But since my whole point of contention with "the Mosque" has been its location, the analogies are dead on, since it's the location of the protest that's equally egregious.  "Proximity" though is a good qualifier, to this debate, and I apprecate your injecting it

But I stand by the accuracy of the analogy, and perplexed as to why the Imam gets a pass while Phelps is appropriately condemned.  And equally perplexed at how critics of the Imam are casted as religious bigoted intolerants, but no such term is being appled to critics of Phelps?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 09:34:46 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2011, 09:32:44 PM »
Perhaps this will help.

Phelps has responsibility and control over his own actions.

You are holding the Iman responsible for the actions of others, not his own actions.

It really is surprising that a personal responsibility conservative such as yourself can't see this.




sirs

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2011, 09:38:23 PM »
Perhaps this will help.  Phelps has responsibility and control over his own actions.  You are holding the Iman responsible for the actions of others, not his own actions.

Phelps didn't murder anyone either.  No, I'm holding the Imam responsible for chosing a location that is inappropriate, just as I am of Phelps. 


It really is surprising that a personal responsibility conservative such as yourself can't see this.

Couldn't see it any clearer.  I'm surprised you can't, though perhaps your tack to the center is clouding that ability a tad
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2011, 09:50:03 PM »
Quote
Phelps didn't murder anyone either.

Who said he did?

Quote
No, I'm holding the Imam responsible for chosing a location that is inappropriate, just as I am of Phelps.

Why is it inappropriate? Because he is Muslim? That's like saying Brass is guilty of shooting Gifford because Loughner was an atheist, or you are guilty of the Gifford shooting because you are white.

Sloppy thinking if you ask me, and all a symptom of the identity politics you railed against in the Williams thread. You are a walking contradiction. Perhaps you should embrace your inner liberal whilst you place people in their appropriate bins.





sirs

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2011, 10:03:22 PM »
Quote
Phelps didn't murder anyone either.

Who said he did?

No one.  I'm referencing the anaolgy and the "actions of others", that you tried to inject.  The Imam wasn't responsible for the actions of the terrorists, just Phelps wasn't responsible for the actions of a 22yr old murderer


Quote
No, I'm holding the Imam responsible for chosing a location that is inappropriate, just as I am of Phelps.

Why is it inappropriate? Because he is Muslim?

You WOULD like that wouldn't you.  That's been your bee in the bonnet all along.  And here's been a perfect opportunity to demonstrate how wrong you were the 1st go around, when you tried it.  This has already been addressed, and its NOT about him being a Muslim, and never has.  It's NOT about Phelps being a Baptist Christian, and never has.  The Imam could be Jewish, he could be a Baptist Christian, he could be an Atheist, he could be a Romulan that was wanting to build an Islamic Cultural Center in such close proximity, to where 3000+ were killed in the name of Islam, by Islamic radicals

No manner of you spouting that same nonsense is it ever going to be about their religion, or some ill-perceived egregiously flawed notion of intolerance to the Muslim faith.

But by all means, keep digging that hole


Sloppy thinking if you ask me, and all a symptom of the identity politics you railed against in the Williams thread.

Good thing that's not why now, isn't it

« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 01:54:41 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2011, 10:37:10 PM »
Quote
You WOULD like that wouldn't you.  That's been your bee in the bonnet all along.  And here's been a perfect opportunity to demonstrate how wrong you were the 1st go around, when you tried it.  This has already been addressed, and its NOT about him being a Muslim, and never has.  It's NOT about Phelps being a Baptist Christian, and never has.  He could be Jewish, he could be a Baptist Christian, he could be an Atheist, he could be a Romulan that was wanting to build an Islamic Cultural Center in such close proximity, to where 3000+ were killed in the name of Islam, by Islamic radicals

No manner of you spouting that same nonsense is it ever going to be about their religion, or some ill-perceived egregiously flawed notion of intolerance to the Muslim faith.

But by all means, keep digging that hole

Why would a Baptist build a mosque?

sirs

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2011, 11:28:37 PM »
You'd have to ask a Baptist.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2011, 11:59:03 PM »
I'm asking you.

sirs

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Re: A Tragic Prediction
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2011, 02:52:09 AM »
I'm not a Baptist.

Here, let's put it another way, for even greater comprehension

A group of Christian zealots, who advocate the killing of abortion doctors, hijack several planes, and take down the WTC.  Rev Schuler wants to build a massive Crystal Cathedral #2, at the doorstep of the rubble that once was the WTC.  It would be an inappropriate location choice

A group of radical scientologists, determined to wake the world up, and to better appreciate scientology, hijack several planes and take down the WTC.  David Miscavige decides he wants to build a brand new Church of Scientology, in the shadow of once was the WTC.  It would be an inappropriate location choice

A group of Atheist terrorists, decide the country is becoming too spiritual, and hijack several planes, subsequently taking down the WTC.  Frank Zindler feels compelled to build a shrine, in the name of Atheists, with a desire to bring harmony (& Godlessness) to all, at the foot of what was once the WTC.  It would be an inappropriate location choice

Do you see yet, why this has nothing to do with the Imam being a Muslim, or anything to do with the Muslim religion, yet??
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 01:55:59 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle