Author Topic: gaza flare up  (Read 5369 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2007, 06:17:40 PM »
The Israelis and the Palestinians, Hezbollah and the Syrians are all guilty of attacking one another. By any standard of decency, they are all pricks.

As a rule, the Israelis get a lot better press in the US than the Arabs. When a rocket hits some Israeli target, they interview the victims and give us their names. Usually when the Israelis fire weapons that harm Arabs, all we see are angry Arabs waving guns and signs about and their names are rarely given.

The US pays HUGE amounts of money to Israel, more than to any other nation on the planet (except probably Iraq these days), and loans even more money to Israel, and the loans are often forgiven with no repayment required.

Personally I would prefer not to subsidize any of them. They should all use rocks and slingshots, they have plenty of those. Fewer would die that way, too.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2007, 09:38:05 PM »
Funny, that viewpoint (the one Henny is presenting) is the only one that is presented in the US media as well

exactly
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Henny

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2007, 08:20:30 AM »
"LOL - Because Israel respects UN resolutions!"

you completely miss the point
the point isn't un resolotions
the point is henny mentions one side of reality
which implies israel is the "bad guy"
if israel crossed into syrian airspace it may because huge amounts of arms are being brought to people via syria that want israel destroyed





You know, if Israel crossed into Syrian airspace, despite their intentions, they still violated international law and Syria is within their right to defend themselves.

Henny

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2007, 08:22:00 AM »
I think it is much more likely that Henny is presenting a side of the story that is not common knowledge in the United States.

For all of the talk of media bias, it is well known that the Israeli Government is given a free pass by the U.S. media.

Funny, that viewpoint (the one Henny is presenting) is the only one that is presented in the US media as well.

I actually took it from a combination of Israeli and Arab media after seeing the U.S. headlines. I posted in here from Reuters because I doubt that the people in here could read the Arabic media. And I don't think the text would actually post.

Surprisingly, the viewpoints aren't too different - but I think that may be because Israel isn't officially talking about the incident yet.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 08:23:47 AM by Henny »

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2007, 09:38:43 AM »
You know, if Israel crossed into Syrian airspace, despite their intentions, they still violated international law and Syria is within their right to defend themselves.

yes and you know if syria is allowing huge shipments of arms to knowingly flow through syria to Hezbollah that is a violation of UN Resolution 1701 and Israel has a right to defend itself especially after being under almost dailing attack from these every same arms being brought through Syria.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Henny

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2007, 09:57:06 AM »
You know, if Israel crossed into Syrian airspace, despite their intentions, they still violated international law and Syria is within their right to defend themselves.

yes and you know if syria is allowing huge shipments of arms to knowingly flow through syria to Hezbollah that is a violation of UN Resolution 1701 and Israel has a right to defend itself especially after being under almost dailing attack from these every same arms being brought through Syria.

Syria is not specifically addressed in that resolution and therefore I don't think it lawfully applies to them.

And even if it did, with Israel's history of disregarding UN resolutions, I suppose they would only be following the local example set in the forward capital of Jerusalem.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2007, 11:03:12 AM »
Syria is not specifically addressed in that resolution and therefore I don't think it lawfully applies to them.

Thats like saying because someone is not specifically listed in muder laws that the law does not apply to them.

?(a)The sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories;


And even if it did, with Israel's history of disregarding UN resolutions,

as have Hezbollah

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Henny

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2007, 11:30:47 AM »
Thats like saying because someone is not specifically listed in muder laws that the law does not apply to them.

I disagree with the simplicity of your argument.

?(a)The sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories;

Without printing out the whole resolution and combing through it, I have to say that I was wrong in this, per your excerpt above. But is there anything in the resolution that says that Israel can fly into Syrian airspace to defend the resolution? Have they been given that authority?

as have Hezbollah

Catch-22. Hezbollah was created in an angry response to Israel, including their blatant disregard for UN Resolutions.

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2007, 02:36:51 PM »
It should be noted also that Hezbollah does quite a bit of social work in Southern Lebanon to help the Shi'a Muslim population there (as well as others) who have historically been one of the most rejected and deprived groups in that region.

Isreal has many times invaded Lebanon and left the country in complete ruin, especially the Southern area. More than once they have attacked UN outposts in doing so. I doubt seriously that these actions breed any respect for the United Nations in that region by any side in the conflict.

Hezbollah is part paramilitary, but also an elected political party as well.

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Mr_Perceptive

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2007, 02:46:08 PM »
The Israelis and the Palestinians, Hezbollah and the Syrians are all guilty of attacking one another. By any standard of decency, they are all pricks.

As a rule, the Israelis get a lot better press in the US than the Arabs. When a rocket hits some Israeli target, they interview the victims and give us their names. Usually when the Israelis fire weapons that harm Arabs, all we see are angry Arabs waving guns and signs about and their names are rarely given.

The US pays HUGE amounts of money to Israel, more than to any other nation on the planet (except probably Iraq these days), and loans even more money to Israel, and the loans are often forgiven with no repayment required.

Personally I would prefer not to subsidize any of them. They should all use rocks and slingshots, they have plenty of those. Fewer would die that way, too.


Actually, on or surrounding 9-11, I was in the Middle East and I DID see many young Arab men celebrate the destruction of the World Trade Center. They fired their guns into the air, hooped and hoolared and carried on for days.

All this while many in the Left were here sitting in their recliners badmouthing America. About how we caused it and so on.

Ratcrap.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 02:47:42 PM by Mr_Perceptive »

Henny

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2007, 03:07:55 PM »
It should be noted also that Hezbollah does quite a bit of social work in Southern Lebanon to help the Shi'a Muslim population there (as well as others) who have historically been one of the most rejected and deprived groups in that region.

Isreal has many times invaded Lebanon and left the country in complete ruin, especially the Southern area. More than once they have attacked UN outposts in doing so. I doubt seriously that these actions breed any respect for the United Nations in that region by any side in the conflict.

Hezbollah is part paramilitary, but also an elected political party as well.



The same goes for Hamas. To phrase it more accurately, Hezbollah and Hamas are primarily run to help the people and do social work - their paramilitary actions are secondary to their main purpose.

Mr_Perceptive

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2007, 03:11:07 PM »
I have seen them do this. It is admirable. They do indeed provide a valuble service in this arena.

But, no matter how noteworthy their charitable activities, if they then go out and kill Jewish women and children, then what higher purpose have they served?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2007, 04:10:12 PM »
All this while many in the Left were here sitting in their recliners badmouthing America. About how we caused it and so on.
=========================================================
Ratcrap indeed.


Lookit. Olebush sent US troops to Saudi Arabia and stationed them in Dharain. Among those troops were men and women who went as missionaries, with crates of Bibles in Arabic, intended to convert Saudis.

The Saudi government considers itself to be the Defender of Islam. The people of Arabia support them in this more than any other single thing.

The Koran says "THERE SHALL BE NO TWO RELIGIONS IN ARABIA"

The Khobar Towers was bombed to subtly hint that not all Saudis really liked the Americans in their country.

Olebush put them there and Clinton unwisely allowed them to stay.

It was the close collaboration between the corrupy Saudi Royals and the equally corrupt American Awlmen like James Baker that provoked dozens of fanatical Saudis to join Al Qaeda and to defend the Koran and Islam in their own way.

People do not become murderous suicidal tools for no reason at all. 9-11 was entirely predictible.

Baker and Olebush and Exxonmobil got paid, a number of bankers and others paid the price.

After 9-11, the US troops were drawn out of Saudi Arabia, skulking away in secret,  nearly unmentioned by the press.

Now that you have read this, you have the option of no longer sounding like a knucklewalking slackjawed Cletus.

Will you rise to the occasion?  Inquiring minds want to know...
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Henny

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Re: gaza flare up
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2007, 04:17:41 PM »
All this while many in the Left were here sitting in their recliners badmouthing America. About how we caused it and so on.
=========================================================
The Koran says "THERE SHALL BE NO TWO RELIGIONS IN ARABIA"

Where?

Unless you've read something I haven't, I'm pretty sure this isn't written in the Quran.

Henny

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Syria-Israel bombing incident shrouded in mystery
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2007, 04:28:20 PM »
Syria-Israel bombing incident shrouded in mysteryFri Sep 7, 2007 1:36PM EDT
By Alastair Macdonald

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Mystery still shrouds Syria's complaint that Israel bombed its territory but the incident has set nerves jangling across the Middle East, with commentators urging both sides on Friday against an escalation into war.

Egypt, pioneer of Arab-Israeli detente, said Israel was fuelling tension. The Arab League said "unacceptable maneuvers" showed Israeli bad faith toward peace talks in the region -- the United States aims to host a conference soon involving Israel and its neighbors, with a view to resolving Palestinian claims.

"This is the beginning of a Syrian-Israeli conflict," said Sateh Noureddine, columnist with Lebanese newspaper as-Safir. He saw it as a follow-on from Israel's war in Lebanon a year ago.

Within Israel, there was criticism, too. An analyst wrote in the left-leaning Haaretz daily that commanders misunderstood the consequences and risked provoking a "pre-emptive strike".

A former Israeli diplomat who has worked for a resumption of long-stalled peace talks with Damascus said he was worried by a "very aggressive" Israeli message after a summer in which nervous speculation on both sides of a surprise attack by the other has mingled with public offers of renewed negotiations.

But a day after Syria said its forces "confronted" Israeli aircraft in the early hours of Thursday and warned that it might respond to "aggression and treachery", the Israeli government stuck to a blanket refusal to comment, leaving analysts picking over the terse Syrian statement and guessing at what happened.

Although one Syrian official said troops "fired heavily" at Israeli planes, the state news agency spoke only of air defenses "confronting" them -- a phrase that several analysts, including Jihad al-Khazen of pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat, said could mean simply locking on radar rather than opening fire.

"It leaves plenty of room for interpretation," Khazen said.

The Syrian statement said Israelis "dropped munitions" that did no damage. A Western diplomat in Damascus offered what many found a plausible version of events -- that a reconnaissance mission found itself targeted by Syrian radar, or actual fire, and jettisoned its load as part of an evasive maneuver.

WHAT CHANGED?

Israeli officials, speaking privately, do not deny Syrian accusations that Israel conducts such missions over Syria, which has left analysts pondering why Thursday's ended differently.

Was Syria's military response different from before or was the difference only that it protested publicly? Did it show Syria's defenses have improved with Russian hardware bought since Israel's war in Lebanon? Were the Israeli pilots just careless? Or did they deliberately provoke a Syrian response?

For Lebanese commentator Noureddine, "It was no mistake ... that the Israelis reached that area. It was ... a test for Syria's military, political and psychological defenses.

"As for Syria's announcement, that is a warning that any other step like that can be considered as the start of a war."

Reuven Pedhatzur, an analyst and former Israeli pilot, wrote in Haaretz that, despite recent high tensions with Damascus, whoever ordered the mission failed to grasp its consequences.

Referring to Syria's part in the 1967 war that saw Israel seize the Golan Heights, he added: "Like 40 years ago, the two sides could lose control of the situation and war could break out through a misunderstanding of the other side's intentions."

Eyal Zisser, another Israeli analyst, had praise for Syria: "Any misunderstanding could lead to conflagration. However, the Syrian announcement was surprising in its moderation."

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad had shown such "moderation" before, Zisser wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper, in that warnings of retaliation had not come to actual conflict.

Arguing the Lebanon war between Israel and Syria's Hezbollah allies had disturbed the status quo, however, he added: "Both sides should make more effort in future to avoid deterioration."

Retired senior Israeli diplomat Alon Liel, who has worked with Syrian representatives to promote negotiations, said Prime Minister Ehud Olmert risked giving Syria grounds for war at a time when, he believed, both sides had a chance to talk peace:

"I see here an Israeli message that is very aggressive," Liel said on Friday. "And I'm worried."

Olmert himself was quoted as telling Israeli reporters, however, that all was well: "Do I not look relaxed?"

(Additional reporting by Yara Bayoumy in Beirut and Dan Williams in Jerusalem)

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USL0774138020070907