The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .

[sirs]

And I've never made it about how God feels.....another strawman, but about what God would have his do.

But what's most striking in your answer was "Does God hate sin? The truth is that the question is irrelevant"

The truth is that the question is at the core of this topic, and a polar opposite to irrelevant.  Christ literally absorbed all our sins, with his death on the cross.  Sin prevents us from reaching heaven, plain and simple.  God commands us to follow as sinfree a life as possible, and when we do sin, to seek his forgiveness, and "attempt" to sin no more.  At no time, in any scripture I've ever come across his God so ambivalent to sin, that we are to give it a pass, no biggie, move on.  He's made it very clear where sin falls on his ledger.  He's also made it very clear how we're to love our fellow man.  Ergo, again reinforced by what I've been taught in church & sunday school, we are to hate the sin, but love the sinner.

Unless of course you want to demonstrate for us all, thru scripture that we are to embrace both the sin & sinner

[_JS]

Sirs, if you aren't going to read what I write then why bother?

Never have I said that "God is ambivalent" towards sin. Never have I said that we "give sin a pass."

If you are going to lie, then what is the point of discussion? 

By the way:

"Christ literally absorbed all our sins"

I think that you should understand what the word "literally" means before you use it.

I'm getting really tired of you misrepresenting my position and absolutely flat out, bald-faced lying Sirs. You keep setting up the same strawman ("love the sin," "embrace the sin") which I have NEVER espoused. Simply because I do not hold to your errant view, does not mean that I must hold to the opposite view.

Now we can have a decent discussion, but you have to stop making false claims as to what I've said.

[sirs]

So, perhaps now, you know a bit how I feel, with the numerous strawmen and questioning of my faith you've been applying.  And news flash Js, lying is when you KNOW something to be one thing, but say another.  Your position, especially in how you have so vehemently been criticising how I view sin, portrays a position that indeed sees sin, if not something to embrace, then to treat it as no big deal.  So, it's not lying when I make such a claim, so that deflection effort is right up there with the strawmen you've been using.

So, let's get clarity on how YOU see sin, since we already know how sirs (& Plane) see it.  What were you taught in church & Sunday School, regarding how to deal with sin (read: NOT sinners, but sin itself)?  Are you to judge for yourself what's right and wrong in someone else's actions? (read: NOT judging if they're to go to heaven or not, as that's God's domain, but assessing their actions).  Not looking for the PC answer, looking for a simple direct response to a simple direct question

And yes, I do understand what literally means, and its absolutely appropriate, in the context of what Christ's sacrifice on the cross was all about

[_JS]

Lying is exactly what you're doing when you knowingly misrepresent what I believe. I told you what I was taught and what I believe now in the previous post.

And yes, I do understand what literally means

Quite clearly you do not. Christ literally absorbed adultery through his skin? Huh?



You do not want clarity on what I really think, you would not handle it very well as you're starting to really piss me off.

[sirs]

Lying is exactly what you're doing when you knowingly misrepresent what I believe. I told you what I was taught and what I believe now in the previous post.

NO, you didn't make it clear, you gave a typical long-worded lecture-like answer, in an effort to try and cover all bases, minus the clarity requested.  Since it wasn't "knowingly" misrepresenting anything, it's not lying.  Care to clarify, for us simpletons, minus the harvard-like rhetoric?

And yes, I do understand what literally means

Quite clearly you do not. Christ literally absorbed adultery through his skin? Huh?

Oy, so you're not referring to sin as something "tangible"??  Taking lessons from Xo I see.  FYI, I referring to spiritual rhetoric & ACTIONS

You do not want clarity on what I really think, you would not handle it very well as you're starting to really piss me off.

Which explains why I asked for it....because I don't want it.  And like I said, now you know how I feel when you were consistently challenging my faith and what I believe. 

[Plane]

Speaking of strawman, at no time have I ever referenced that God commanded us to hate anyone, including parents.  So I'd appreciate if you stopped that maliscious representation.  So, more to the point, in your sunday school teaching curriculum, what exactly did God want us to do about sin??  If it's not love it, and if its not be ambivalent to it, what exactly were you taught?  Because, Homosexuality IS a sin, in the eyes of God.  So, what were you taught about sin?, besides that everyone does it in 1 way or another, and that Christ made the ultimate sacrifice in removing our sin.

I was speaking of the verse I cited in Luke. I never claimed that you said to "hate" your parents. Christ said it was a necessity to follow Him. Please read.

I attended a fire and brimstone Southern protestant church when I was young enough to go to Sunday school Sirs. An angry, wrathful, hate-filled God in large doses was what I got every Sunday and Wednesday. Litanies of sins, do's and don'ts, can's and cannot's were spouted by with righteous indignation. I did not know any better.

What I learned later is that it is not about what God feels. God is love (1 John 4:8 & 1 John 4:16). The act of incarnation was one of immeasurable humility and infinite love. The act of crucifixion and expiation was one of sacrifice, love, and reconciliation.

Sin is the product of a fallen man. There is no perfection (Pelagius was indeed wrong). More than that, Luther was right - there is nothing a human can do that earns his or her way into heaven. That is why I do not believe the old Baptist door-to-door question "are you saved?" has any merit whatsoever. I believe that conversion is a lifelong process, which is what the Church tells us.

Does God hate sin? The truth is that the question is irrelevant. We can't possibly know the answer with any certainty. Sin injures our relationship with God and mortal sin may cause a permanent impediment to that relationship. That is why we have reconciliation.

It is similar to the question: will I get into heaven? It shouldn't matter. You should love God for the sake of loving God and following Christ. Let Him worry about your afterlife. 

And this is the guy that built hell?

God hates sin in such an widespread way that calling someone a fool can endanger ones soul for damnation, I think Jesus picked this rather mild sin as one to point at to demonstrate that Gods policy is Zero tolerance of sin.

Gods love is directed twards persons , he offers salvation to the undeserveing because he loves the person , but a person can turn down salvation and might  smugly cling to his sin certain that it is a mild sin, but any sin at all must be forgiven and repented elese even the mildest one of all will damn the obstinate sinner who refuses Gods gift of love.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God ,but Hell is built for sin , no one has to go there if they are willing to let the sin go without them.

[Plane]

You'll note that I never once said that "God loves sin." That is a strawman that you and Sirs keep building and beating to a pulp. It is not an argument I have made.
...
Does God hate sin? The truth is that the question is irrelevant. We can't possibly know the answer with any certainty. Sin injures our relationship with God and mortal sin may cause a permanent impediment to that relationship. That is why we have reconciliation.

What strange things to say.

Why does Sin injure a relationship with God, in your opinion?

[sirs]

God hates sin in such an widespread way that calling someone a fool can endanger ones soul for damnation, I think Jesus picked this rather mild sin as one to point at to demonstrate that Gods policy is Zero tolerance of sin.

Well referenced, Plane.  ZERO tolerance towards sin

[_JS]

And this is the guy that built hell?

The traditional view of hell is primarily a medieval Christian construct. Gahenna, Sheol, and Hades were quite different from the eternal torture pit of modern belief.

God hates sin in such an widespread way that calling someone a fool can endanger ones soul for damnation, I think Jesus picked this rather mild sin as one to point at to demonstrate that Gods policy is Zero tolerance of sin.

Here's the problem with your view. It is in the first part of your sentence: "calling someone a fool can endanger ones soul for damnation." Your words imply that one could live a perfect existence and heaven is theirs. You're implying what Pelagius argued - that perfection attains heavenly reward.


I have a question for you and Sirs. Why this need to confine God to such simple human feelings such as hatred?

[_JS]

NO, you didn't make it clear, you gave a typical long-worded lecture-like answer, in an effort to try and cover all bases, minus the clarity requested.  Since it wasn't "knowingly" misrepresenting anything, it's not lying.  Care to clarify, for us simpletons, minus the harvard-like rhetoric?

You're not a simpleton and I'm not a Harvard graduate. My answer was by no means complex. God gave us brains complete with the ability to think. I resent the implication that I "cover-all-bases." I use what I've learned in both experience and knowledge.

Oy, so you're not referring to sin as something "tangible"??  Taking lessons from Xo I see.  FYI, I referring to spiritual rhetoric & ACTIONS

*sigh*

Actions cannot be literally absorbed. For the love of all that is good and holy, please research the difference between 'literal' and 'figurative.'

Which explains why I asked for it....because I don't want it.  And like I said, now you know how I feel when you were consistently challenging my faith and what I believe.

I don't mind a challenge to my faith in any way. I relish in the discussion. What I dislike is a constant beating of a strawman after I've repeatedly told you that I did not say what you claim. It is not that difficult. You make quick assumptions then expect the other party to prove them untrue. That is not logical.

[sirs]

1 last time....This has zip to do with God's "feelings", so the question is moot

Now, as it relates to sin, we have a few options
- hate it
- dislike it
- be ambivalent towards it
- like it
- embrace it

Given God's zero tolerance towards sin, I'm going with the 1st option.  Feel free to go with your own

[_JS]

1 last time....This has zip to do with God's "feelings", so the question is moot

That would be true except that "hatred," "dislike," "ambivalence," are all emotive feelings.

Now, as it relates to sin, we have a few options
- hate it
- dislike it
- be ambivalent towards it
- like it
- embrace it

And who are you to limit God to five trite, simple options!?!

Given God's zero tolerance towards sin, I'm going with the 1st option.  Feel free to go with your own

It is more a reflection on you than God.

[sirs]

As I said, you go with what makes you feel better, Js.  I'll go with what God clearly demonstrates to me, as it relates to his tolerance of sin.  Hint, it prevents you from entering his kindom.  That's how much a "biggie" it is to him

[_JS]

As I said, you go with what makes you feel better, Js.  I'll go with what God clearly demonstrates to me, as it relates to his tolerance of sin.  Hint, it prevents you from entering his kindom.  That's how much a "biggie" it is to him

Do not patronize me Sirs.

[sirs]

And do not tell me what God has or has not taught me.  By all means, feel free to add futher options to how we are to deal with sin, in our lives