Author Topic: A Winter Soldier's Tale - WARNING! some graphic video shots - disturbing  (Read 14847 times)

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BT

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How are things going pretty well?  The insurgents are lying low, the troops can't be pulled out, the financial drain is continuing.  You know and the insurgents know that your financial predicament is worsening day by day and the plug will have to be pulled sooner or later

Yeah who needs munitions when you are lying low.

Who said anything about pulling troops?

What drain?

Has the cost as a percent of GDP risen? Is the fall of the dollar related to the war or the collapse of the sub prime market?

Seems to me, you make up stuff as you go along. 

Michael Tee

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<<Yeah who needs munitions when you are lying low.>>

Everybody in Iraq need munitions.  They're not planning on lying low for the rest of their lives.

<<Who said anything about pulling troops?>>

EXACTLY.

<<What drain?>>

Oh.  The three trillion dollar to date and still rising drain.

<<Has the cost as a percent of GDP risen? >>

Probably, but more importantly how much of the GDP is totally non-productive spending, such as the production of military equipment that will be destroyed or used up in pointless and wasteful activities such as the war in Iraq?   There is GDP and there is GDP, if you get my drift.  If all or even a large part of your GDP is the production of useless crap, a high GDP is indicative of nothing but waste, as for example if your yearly production includes six hundred million dollars worth of bullets and no new engineers, you are in worse shape than a country whose annual GDP includes the production of six hundred million dollars worth of new engineers and no bullets.  You'd have to be nuts to take GDP as an absolute measure of anything, particularly in a country at war.

<<Is the fall of the dollar related to the war or the collapse of the sub prime market?>>

Both.  A country in the grips of a sub-prime crisis cannot be helped by the further assault on its currency caused by the incurring of a three trillion dollar expenditure, particularly an expenditure that carries no upside, such as the development of human or material infrastructure.

<<Seems to me, you make up stuff as you go along. >>

You're welcome to your opinion, and thanks for sharing it.  So far, I've backed up everything I said.

BT

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So far, I've backed up everything I said.

Sure you have. I especially like your certitude of facts in the Keating thread.

Michael Tee

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<<Sure you have. I especially like your certitude of facts in the Keating thread. >>

Excuse me, but I was responding in terms of this thread to an allegation that I took to be also related to terms of this thread.  If you now want to drag in the Keating thread:

I specifically indicated in the Keating thread in what areas of the facts, research would be needed.  Where there was a gap in my present knowledge, I indicated the possible results of the research and how I would deal with them one by one. 

So I backed up what I knew and I admitted what I did not know.  When I speculate, I don't claim it to be anything but speculation.

Just to make things perfectly clear:  In this thread, I backed up what I said.  In Keating, I made it perfectly clear where I was speculating and backed up whatever I said that was not speculation.

Plane

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It is not a fact that the cost is three trillion to date.

This figure is what one analist supposes the total cost will be eventually , counting all pnntion payments and hospital bills far into the future.

Michael Tee

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It is not a fact that the cost is three trillion to date.

This figure is what one analist supposes the total cost will be eventually , counting all pnntion payments and hospital bills far into the future.

====================

That is the well-considered opinion of a Nobel-Prize-winning economist and it's the best estimate we have to date.  Actually Stiglitz now says that the cost will exceed three trill.  In the absence of countervailing opinion of equal weight, I'll go with the Professor as the best on hand.

BT

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That is the well-considered opinion of a Nobel-Prize-winning economist and it's the best estimate we have to date.  Actually Stiglitz now says that the cost will exceed three trill.  In the absence of countervailing opinion of equal weight, I'll go with the Professor as the best on hand.

Has his estimate been peer reviewed.

Wasn't the doctor who claimed vitamin c would cure cancer also a nobel prize winner?


Michael Tee

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<<Has his estimate been peer reviewed.>>

Sorry, I don't know.

<<Wasn't the doctor who claimed vitamin c would cure cancer also a nobel prize winner?>>

Linus Pauling was a Nobel laureate in physics, who somehow strayed into the field of nutrition and health sciences.  Stieglitz won his Nobel for economics and is pronouncing on purely economic matters.

P.S. While Dr. Pauling made many very broad and unusual claims for Vitamin C, I don't ever recall him claiming it would cure cancer.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 12:54:59 PM by Michael Tee »

BT

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Two economists take an unflinching look at the costs of invading Iraq


The Three Trillion Dollar War: The True Cost of the Iraq Conflict
By Joseph E. Stiglitz and Linda J. Bilmes



SUPPOSE that, five years ago, George Bush had asked every American household to stump up $25,000 to pay for an imminent war on Iraq. How would they have responded?

That money, suitably husbanded, would have paid for arming, provisioning and remunerating the troops; treating the wounded; and restoring the army's strength in the aftermath. It would have paid just compensation for the death and injury of American servicemen and contractors, and it would have covered America's outlays on reconstruction. It would also have allowed America to subsidise the price of oil by $10 a barrel?offsetting the disruption to Iraq's supply.

Mr Bush never asked, of course. But this hefty sum is nonetheless just part of the toll the war may take on America by the time it is over, according to a new book by Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel prize-winner in economics, and Linda Bilmes, a budget and public finance expert at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.

How do the authors arrive at the $3 trillion figure of the title, and the still bigger numbers they report inside? To the administration's own requests for money they add other costs to the taxpayer that either appear elsewhere in the budget (such as the bonuses required to attract recruits put off by the war) or do not yet appear at all (such as the future disability claims of wounded veterans). They put a dollar figure on the American lives lost or damaged by debilitating injury. And they also estimate the damage the war has done to the American economy, by raising the price of oil and diverting spending from domestic investment to foreign adventures.

Along the way, they accuse the administration of both mortgaging the nation's future and short-changing the troops and of deceiving the public and deluding itself. The administration still treats a five-year war as an unforeseen contingency to be paid for by an extra, emergency appropriation outside its regular budget request. And it has indulged in false economies that shave the cash requirements of the war today?by, for example, hesitating to purchase mine-resistant vehicles?only to store up much bigger burdens for the future, such as the cost of caring for veterans injured by roadside bombs.

Critics have questioned some of the authors' estimates, since these were first rehearsed in an academic paper in 2006. The head of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, for example, thinks that paper overestimated the burden of brain injuries, overstated the cost of replacing munitions and equipment, and misattributed other military expenses. But the authors have taken pains to answer those quibbles, and they disclose their sources so that readers can add or subtract as they see fit.

They go on to pursue the war's trail through every twist and turn of the macroeconomic labyrinth. Here, their reasoning is a bit too ingenious. They argue, for example, that the government's spending abroad prevented it from giving America a needed fiscal boost at home. Even if you believe America has suffered from a shortfall of demand in the past five years, surely the blame cannot be pinned on the Iraq war. It must lie instead with the Federal Reserve, which is supposed to maintain full employment as best it can.

Indeed, what is remarkable is how small a macroeconomic price America has paid for its adventure. Not only has the war been financed by borrowing rather than taxes, but also the borrowing has been dirt cheap. Neo-imperialists worry that America has the responsibilities of a global superpower, but an electorate unwilling to shoulder them. For better or worse, though, the combination of volunteer soldiers, hired guns and Asian creditors has lightened the load.

Unlike some other economists, Mr Stiglitz and Ms Bilmes do not weigh the cost of the war against the obvious counterfactual: the cost of containing Saddam Hussein. (They do subtract the cost of enforcing the no-fly zones over the country). Keeping a big force in the region?big enough to cow the dictator into letting weapons inspectors do their job?would not have been cheap, although with hindsight the strategy looks like a bargain. Nor do they pay much attention to the benefits of the invasion, however meagre. For example, the world now knows for sure that Saddam will never lay his hands on weapons of mass destruction. That knowledge may not be worth $3 trillion. But it is surely worth something.

The book mixes the patience of an auditor with the passion of a polemicist; it combines forensic intelligence with prosecutorial zeal. This reviewer responded more to its quieter virtues. As the authors say, the book is not just about the big number on the cover. More importantly, ?by examining the costs, we come to understand better the implications of the war.?

Great powers almost never pay for their wars up front. Even in America's war of independence, the revolutionaries printed money to finance their campaign. But a government contemplating war should surely provide a credible advance estimate of the final bill, akin to what Mr Stiglitz and Ms Bilmes have done. If they cannot, it is a good sign they have not fully weighed the implications of their venture. If so, perhaps they should not undertake it at all.

http://www.economist.com/books/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=10843030

Xavier_Onassis

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Let us suppose that Chairman Mao and his Commie pals had never taken over China, and instead China had been economically controlled as a sort of neocolonialist entity whose undemocratic government banned labor unions and allowed capitalists to pay near-starvation wages to peasants brought from the countryside.

These peasants, working for US corporations to manufacture consumer products dirt-cheap for sale to the US, would generate tremendous profits for their owners.

One can only speculate that in such a situation, the Chinese peasantry would have contributed as much to the Iraq War as they are doing now, working for a government that loans money for this venture.

Eventually, the interest rates have to rise, and the Chinese will surely realize a larger gain. But until then, the Chinese are basically subsidizing a war to replace Baathist Socialism with Who-The Hell- Knows-What in Iraq.

I doubt that either the US public, asked to contribute $25,000 to the war, or the Chinese, asked to lend it, would have been even remotely likely to lend it.

I wonder of Sirs or Plane would have gladly sent a check to fund this war that they claim is so beneficial. I know I wouldn't have done so for sure.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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<<Great powers almost never pay for their wars up front. Even in America's war of independence, the revolutionaries printed money to finance their campaign. But a government contemplating war should surely provide a credible advance estimate of the final bill, akin to what Mr Stiglitz and Ms Bilmes have done. If they cannot, it is a good sign they have not fully weighed the implications of their venture. If so, perhaps they should not undertake it at all.>>

Sure.  WWII was financed, in part, with war savings bonds.  But WWII wrapped up with total victory, the utter destruction of some of America's strongest economic rivals and a fatal weakening of the U.S.S.R., and the communist ideal which prior to the war had been growing the Soviet economy at phenomenal, record rates.  WWII wrapped up in less time than the Iraq war and for at least a year before the end, it was pretty obvious who was gonna win and who was gonna lose.  In a nutshell, money was borrowed and the successful conclusion of the war produced record prosperity out of which the borrowings were easily repaid.

There's nothing wrong with going to war on borrowed capital, if you win the war and profit mightily during the post-war period.  That ain't gonna happen.  Even if the U.S. wins the war (which, of course, it can't) it will still be stuck with its debilitating balance-of-payments problems.  Furthermore, as XO points out, the interest rates will have to rise to attract new dollars to service existing interest and prevent further dollar collapse.  I didn't read Prof. Stigler's report and don't intend to, but I am sure that rising interest rates in the future have been factored into his conclusions, otherwise the three trill will have to be raised even higher.

Amianthus

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Linus Pauling was a Nobel laureate in physics, who somehow strayed into the field of nutrition and health sciences.  Stieglitz won his Nobel for economics and is pronouncing on purely economic matters.

Chemistry and Peace were his two Nobel prizes - both unshared. He never won a Nobel Prize for physics.

P.S. While Dr. Pauling made many very broad and unusual claims for Vitamin C, I don't ever recall him claiming it would cure cancer.

Curing cancer with vitamin C was one of his claims. Studies have not found a link between mega doses of vitamin C and reduced cancer death rates, however.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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I stand corrected.  Thanks, Ami.

Plane

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Let us suppose that Chairman Mao and his Commie pals had never taken over China, and instead China had been economically controlled as a sort of neocolonialist entity whose undemocratic government banned labor unions and allowed capitalists to pay near-starvation wages to peasants brought from the countryside.




This would be worse than what happened with Mao exactly how?

China has delt with several famines during the Mao dynasty and from that ,near starvation would be an improvement.

Untill recently the Chinees have had neither freedom , safety nor good pay, recently they havve started getting good pay , an ordinary carpenter can demand eight dollars for a ten hour day , this is hugely improved from the days of the "Iron Rice bowl" when so many died of hunger.

Eight dollars a day may not sound impressive to us , but it can buy plenty of food and that is really what counts.

Xavier_Onassis

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This would be worse than what happened with Mao exactly how?

China has delt with several famines during the Mao dynasty and from that ,near starvation would be an improvement.

Untill recently the Chinees have had neither freedom , safety nor good pay, recently they havve started getting good pay , an ordinary carpenter can demand eight dollars for a ten hour day , this is hugely improved from the days of the "Iron Rice bowl" when so many died of hunger.

=================================================
Well, that is the point, isn't it?
The revolution has not changed much.
The most positive thing that the Revolution did in China was to slow the growth of the population: and that is a major thing.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."