DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: sirs on May 04, 2011, 01:31:55 PM
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Although the Bin Laden execution was performed flawlessly, complete with 2 back-up helicopters (1 being needed), it would seem that Obama is trying very hard to muck things up, after the fact.
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Gates, Clinton Advising President to Not Release OBL Photograph; Obama Increasingly Concerned No Good Would Come from It
May 04, 2011
President Obama is increasingly doubtful that there's a compelling reason to release a photograph of Osama bin Laden's corpse, ABC News has learned.
There don't seem to be many skeptics of bin Laden's death in the Muslim world, with bin Laden's wife having survived the attack to identify bin Laden's death both to the Navy SEALs and Pakistani authorities.
Meanwhile, sources say, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton are advising the president about concerns at the Pentagon and State Department that releasing a photograph could prompt a backlash against the US for killing bin Laden where one does not seem to currently exist.
The internal debate at the White House is then informed by this question: why are we releasing this photograph if no one seems to really doubt his death and releasing it could cause more harm than good?
US official: "The only skeptics are extremists and they wouldn't be convinced by a photograph anyway. So the president has to weigh the potential negatives and they're huge, there's a tremendous risk of the photo becoming a rallying cry for attacks against US soldiers, government personnel, and Americans in general."
Report (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/05/gates-clinton-advising-president-to-not-release-obl-photograph-obama-increasingly-concerned-no-good-.html)
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A couple of blog posts: (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/05/04/obama_photos_of_bin_laden_will_not_be_released)
How convenient. Obama has proven himself over and over again beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is a serial liar. Without unequivocal proof, the odds are far in favor of obama lying about bin laden's death. obama has already been caught lying in the story released about the circumstances during the actual raid. originally it was a big firefight, but after the pakistani's said there were no guns in the compound now they say bin laden resisted but without a gun. And now the criminal holder has come out and claimed bin laden was killed in self defense. Lies, lies, more lies and nothing but lies. So did the nobel peace prize winning president order the assination of an unarmed man? And then quickly dispose of the body of whoever was killed to cover the trail? Without proof obama's reputation as a serial liar makes the whole unraveling story stink like a huge fake
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I don't know if the report is true. However, it would fit the pattern of the fool in the White House, who kept his birth certificate private, and hides his academic record, Master's thesis, Doctoral dissertation, etc.
As others have said, conspiracy theories will abound. There would be conspiracy theories aplenty even if they had kept the body and put it out for public viewing. Soon enough, the majority of people worldwide will believe that Osama is still alive. (There were conspiracy theories for decades after Hitler's death because the Soviets hid the evidence.)
One of the greatest indications of true, functional stupidity is the inability to learn from experience. Apparently, this clown never learns.
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I believe it was Charles Krauthammer that I first heard say that if the reason for a ground operation to take out bin Laden was to get clear evidence that we in fact got him, it was imperative that the photos be released.
Now, with the decision to keep the pictures under wraps and the fact that the bin Laden's body was conveniently fed to the sharks, you just know that the rumors, speculations and conspiracy theories will grow and abound. Which is exactly what Obama is counting on. Stand by for the release on or about September or October of 2011.
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Remember when President Obama reversed an 18-year-old policy that prohibited the press from photographing the coffins of U.S. soldiers coming home to their families for the last time from war?
Obama won't release a single photo of a dead Osama bin Laden in order to avoid "offending" the Muslim world, but openly supports the idea of photos being taken of our dead troops, killed by our enemies under bin Laden. (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/05/04/obama_releasing_photos_of_us_troops_kia_fine,_photo_of_osama_not_happening)
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Obama won't release a single photo of a dead Osama bin Laden in order to avoid "offending" the Muslim world, but openly supports the idea of photos being taken of our dead troops, killed by our enemies under bin Laden.
I did not know Obama allowed opening the caskets so that photos of the dead soldiers could be taken.
Perhaps the townhall-ie misspoke.
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Perhaps Bt misread: ..prohibiting the press photographing the coffins of U.S. soldiers coming home to their families for the last time from war..
Note also the reference of a dead Obama could also be referencing even a washed and covered dead Osama
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Obama won't release a single photo of a dead Osama bin Laden in order to avoid "offending" the Muslim world, but openly supports the idea of photos being taken of our dead troops, killed by our enemies under bin Laden.
Yeah no mention of coffins.
Perhaps in the preceding paragraph.
Remember when President Obama reversed an 18-year-old policy that prohibited the press from photographing the coffins of U.S. soldiers coming home to their families for the last time from war?
Yeah there it is. Coffins followed by bodies. Only thing missing is the opening of the coffins.
Which i think is what i pointed out in my original post.
But i will admit that i didn't link back to the original article. Was her original meaning changed by your choice of snippets?
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Obama won't release a single photo of a dead Osama bin Laden in order to avoid "offending" the Muslim world, but openly supports the idea of photos being taken of our dead troops, killed by our enemies under bin Laden.
Yeah no mention of coffins.
Perhaps in the preceding paragraph.
Remember when President Obama reversed an 18-year-old policy that prohibited the press from photographing the coffins of U.S. soldiers coming home to their families for the last time from war?
Yeah there it is. Coffins followed by bodies. Only thing missing is the opening of the coffins.
Amazing what context can do. If you focus on just the 2nd paragraph, completely ignoring the 1st, you might be able to convince folks that Townhall meant to claim what you tried to claim. When you actually add BOTH paragraphs for context, you can see how the one with the apparent bias, is the one making the erroneous inferrence of "I did not know Obama allowed opening the caskets so that photos of the dead soldiers could be taken."
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so what is this new technology that allows the photographing of dead soldiers in coffins, without opening the casket?
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They have never taken photos of dead soldiers, only coffins in which they are presumably placed.
I have no idea of what you mean about "dead Obama" here.
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I have no idea of what you mean about "dead Obama" here.
Wasn't that a punk band from the 80's.
Jello Biafra or someone like that led them, maybe.
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so what is this new technology that allows the photographing of dead soldiers in coffins, without opening the casket?
The same one that allows the showing of a wrapped up Obama. A coffin coming off a military plane, carried very delicately by several other soldiers, can be assumed to be carrying a dead soldier.........no?
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so what is this new technology that allows the photographing of dead soldiers in coffins, without opening the casket?
The same one that allows the showing of a wrapped up Obama. A coffin coming off a military plane, carried very delicately by several other soldiers, can be assumed to be carrying a dead soldier.........no?
We can certainly assume the caskets carry a dead soldier, but how do you get a photo of the dead soldier inside the casket as the author seemed to claim.
Seems the paragraphs are redundant if she just wanted to say that Obama now allows photographers at Dover but doesn't allow them for terrorists.
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What is the presumed use?
It was presumed that a photo every week of two or six coffins arriving in Dover would provide strong anti war propaganda , needlessly humiliating the soldier and his family in their time of grief.
It can also be supposed that the gory wounded face of Osama would enrage and energise the folks who loved him.
Why can't we suppose that the sight of Flag Draped American caskets would enrage and energise the warlike and already angry American public and the sight of Osama unquestionably deceased would unman and depress the people who loved him?
Would a picture of dead Osama never serve as antiwar propaganda? How about anti-jahaid propaganda?
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so what is this new technology that allows the photographing of dead soldiers in coffins, without opening the casket?
The same one that allows the showing of a wrapped up Obama. A coffin coming off a military plane, carried very delicately by several other soldiers, can be assumed to be carrying a dead soldier.........no?
We can certainly assume the caskets carry a dead soldier, but how do you get a photo of the dead soldier inside the casket as the author seemed to claim.
Seems the paragraphs are redundant if she just wanted to say that Obama now allows photographers at Dover but doesn't allow them for terrorists.
The coffin coming off the plane IS the DEAD SOLDIER
Seems like someone is still trying to infer something that never was. Reading bias, by way of predisposed bias, it would seem
Again, Obama is making this far more problematic than it needed to be, and fueling the ongoing criticism, when this could have been a slam dunk for him, from all sides.
This Politically Correct garbage is beyond nauseating. Perhaps Miss Henny can correct me on this, but it would seem, for someone as "intelligent & articulate" as our CnC, impressing those with how he pronounces Pakistan, he sure has a remedial notion of the Middle East. IIRC, hard core Muslims, including radicals & terrorists admire strength. Seeing weakness emboldens them. Deciding not to show the photographic proof of the Al Qeada's leader's demise, at the hands of Americans, for fear it might offend and generate additional hatred is in itself, generating additional hatred, and literally giving those radicals all the more sense of attacking the weakness known as America & Americans
Taking out Usama, the way we did, absolutely was a gut blow to AlQeada and Islamic terrorists across the globe. Showing his picture of what happens to those who would make war with us, would have brought them to their knees, even impressing some with our show of strength.
Instead, we've not only given them a chance to breathe, from the gut blow, but our weakness in not showing ANY photo of a Dead Bin Laden, both emboldens radical Muslims to attack "the weak Americans" and reinforces the accurate criticism of Obama's piss poor judgement
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The coffin coming off the plane IS the DEAD SOLDIER
The Coffin coming off the plane contains the dead soldier.
It is no more the dead soldier than the plane carrying the coffin is the dead soldier.
Is this Pavlich an intern at Townhall or what? I mean how hard is it to get something this simple right?
Remember when President Obama reversed an 18-year-old policy that prohibited the press from photographing the coffins of U.S. soldiers coming home to their families for the last time from war?
Obama won't release a single photo of a dead Osama bin Laden in order to avoid "offending" the Muslim world, but openly supports the idea of photos being taken of our dead troops, killed by our enemies under bin Laden.
FLASHBACK:
U.S. lifts photo ban on military coffins
In a reversal of an 18-year-old military policy that critics said was hiding the ultimate cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the news media will now be allowed to photograph the flag-draped coffins of America's war dead as their bodies are returned to the United States, but only if the families of the dead agree.
The decision, which Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced Thursday, lifts a 1991 blanket ban on such photographs put in place under President George Bush. It chiefly affects coffins arriving from Iraq and Afghanistan that go through Dover Air Force Base in Delaware.
The military said the ban protected the privacy and dignity of families of the dead. But others, including some of the families as well as opponents of the Iraq war, said it sanitized the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and was intended to control public anger over the conflicts.
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The coffin coming off the plane IS the DEAD SOLDIER
The Coffin coming off the plane contains the dead soldier.
It is no more the dead soldier than the plane carrying the coffin is the dead soldier.
Is this Pavlich an intern at Townhall or what? I mean how hard is it to get something this simple right?
It's actually quite easy, when you remove the predisposed bias. But by all means, continue to entertain this inferred fantasy, and ignore the far bigger point being made
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What bias. She got it wrong. Simple as that.
As far as the bigger issue, i'm agnostic about showing the photos. Don't know what good it would do. Doubt about OBLs death is already raised. Would photos add to the fire?
I know some would love to have had his body brought back stateside so folks could parade around with his head on a pike at ground zero and then maybe do a bunch of high fives and then get drunk but i don't know what good that would do either.
What did we do with Tojo?
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She got it wrong, based on your erroneous conclusion of what you believed she meant. Since that's not what she inferred, its you that got it wrong
Now, we return to our originally scheduled programming......that of the bigger issue. I already explained what "good it would do", but I would welcome Miss Henny's thoughts on that assessment. And BTW, I'm also on record as having no problem with his being dumped in the sea
What did we do with Bonnie & Clyde?
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She got it wrong, based on your erroneous conclusion of what you believed she meant. Since that's not what she inferred, its you that got it wrong
Sorry no error on my part. If you want to make her error yours, that would be your choice.
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Sorry, your attempt to take her comments out of context was your choice, & is what put the nail into your biased error
Now, back to our regularly scheduled issue
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Sorry, your attempt to take her comments out of context was your choice, & is what put the nail into your biased error
Now, back to our regularly scheduled issue
Interesting. I quote her in context and somehow that is proof positive of my bias. But I am curious how taking photos of our dead troops means anything other than taking photos of our dead troops. Perhaps its some new fangled linguistics thing that i am unaware of.
Kinda like changing the subject when you choose the wrong side in a debate.
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No, you quoted her OUT OF CONTEXT (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/well-this-will-just-feed-the-criticism-even-more/msg123350/#msg123350), with your initial "conclusion". It was only when I referenced the full context, that you started the semantic back pedaling, and now the persevering on it, to steer away from the far more pressing issue put forth
You got it wrong. Simple as that. If you wish to continue to vacillate on your error, that's your choice. Call it whatever you want. Ooo, you can even call it changing the subject when you choose the wrong side in a debate. Oh wait, you already tried that tact. Oh well, you'll think of something. You're a smart fella
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Prove bias.
Actually i quoted her completely in context.
The context of Obama not showing a bloodied and dead Osama vs being willing to show photos of dead soldiers. That was her context as she upped the ante a bit to get that apples to apples thing going when what Obama did approve was photographing caskets as they came onto the tarmac as the surrounding paragraphs clearly showed.
No mention of a shrouded beatified Osama as you tried to slip in in your follow up response.
She played with words. I caught it and called her on it. You choose to defend her and make her error yours so I'll call you on it too.
No biggie, no bias, it is what it is.
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NO, you didn't. (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/well-this-will-just-feed-the-criticism-even-more/msg123427/#msg123427) But I was right, you did think of something else. Oh wait, no, you actually are trying to pull the same semantic stunt. I guess I was wrong
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I guess I was wrong
and consistent
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About how smart a fella I thought you to be?......ok
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about always wanting the last word
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Apparently just needing to set the record straight. But hey, my apologies, by all means, you may have the last dig
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How gracious. Course you are also wrong about Pavliks menaing in paragraph two of her lil ole diatribe.
Perhaps she should intern for newsmax.
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This is the way a discussion ends,
This is the way a discussion ends:
Not with a bang, but sirs whimper.
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LOL
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Krauthammer Destroys Obama's Excuses For Not Releasing Bin Laden Photos
Krauthammer's final point is the caper:
"The only reason you want to release it is to prove he is dead, especially in parts of the world, there will be mythology.
The only reason the president ordered the raid the way he did, a risky operation, he could have used a predator and destroyed the compound and reduced bin Laden to a cinder.
The reason he ordered a raid, risky operation, is to produce proof of death.
We did not enter this to produce a trophy. I'm not sure why the president has a compulsive need to morally preen that he is not spiking the football."
BTW: Not that I fault or disagree with Obama's Ground Zero visit, but wouldn't his victory speech be classified as "spiking the ball?"
Blog post (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/greghengler/2011/05/05/krauthammer_destroys_obamas_excuses_for_not_releasing_bin_laden_photos)
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It they had taken out bin Laden with a drone, they would have killed a lot of women and children, and there would be no certainty, even among the Americans that he was gruly deceased.
Or as the song says,
"But we've got to verify it legally, to see
Mayor
To see?
Barrister
If she
Mayor
If she?
Barrister
Is morally, ethic'lly
Father No.1
Spiritually, physically
Father No. 2
Positively, absolutely
Munchkins
Undeniably and reliably Dead
Coroner
As Coroner I must aver, I thoroughly examined her.
And she's not only merely dead, she's really most sincerely dead.
Mayor
Then this is a day of Independence For all the Munchkins and their descendants
Barrister
If any.
Mayor
Yes, let the joyous news be spread
The wicked [bin Laden] at last is dead!
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Ummm......yea :o