DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Christians4LessGvt on July 14, 2015, 01:15:16 PM
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Young African American woman explains "Confederate Flag"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=11&v=AFFLQ9w1f8o
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I agree with her.
The Confederate flag (the Battle flag) does not belong on the capitol grounds.
If people want to stick it on their bumpers or tattoo it on their skin, that is okay with me.
Still, what can you say to Germans who want to fly the swastika to honor brave Grandpapa who died bravely at Stalingrad?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hPo6mYnks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvvEh8hvjz4
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That guy is a nut.
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Still, what can you say to Germans who want to fly the swastika to honor brave Grandpapa who died bravely at Stalingrad?
To honor them personally?
Why not?
Some of them are dead because my father shot them, would they feel hurt if I flew an old glory to honor him?
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The fact it that it is entirely as possible to die bravely defending Nazi Germany as any other country.
Stonewall Jackson was every bit as much a racist as anyone who defended Omaha Beach.
Bravery is one thing, the morality oif the cause is another, different, thing.
Still, Swastikas are illegal in Germany today.
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Still, Swastikas are illegal in Germany today.
But not in the U.S.
Which is better?
There is a difference between the philosophy of the leadership and the valor of the common man.
If perfection is required , who will we admire at all?
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This case proves that if you are anti-racist , you need not have any class at all.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/11/memphis-city-council-votes-to-dig-up-grave-of-confederate-general-sell-his-statue/
On July 7 the Memphis City Council voted unanimously to exhume the body of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest from its 110 year resting place and move it to another location.
The body of Forrest’s wife will be exhumed as well.
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Nathan Bedford Forrest was a slave dealer who enlisted as a common soldier and became a general. He massacred the Black soldiers that he defeated at Ft. Pillow rather than to take them prisoner. After the War, he created the Ku Klux Klan. If there was ever a Confederate that deserved to be defamed, Forrest is the one who deserves it most. He was pretty much the most despicable Civil War general of all. They named things after him in the 1880's to teach them ni****ers a lesson. Another favorite was Rep. Preston Brooks, of, yes, South Carolina, who beat a Republican Congressman Charles Sumner nearly to death with a cane. They renamed Brooksville FL for him.
Forrest Gump was named for Forrest, by the way.
Suppose there was a statue honoring Adolph Eichmann or Josef Mengele in Germany. Should it be just left in a park named for him?
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Nathan Bedford Forrest was a slave dealer who enlisted as a common soldier and became a general. He massacred the Black soldiers that he defeated at Ft. Pillow rather than to take them prisoner. After the War, he created the Ku Klux Klan. If there was ever a Confederate that deserved to be defamed, Forrest is the one who deserves it most. He was pretty much the most despicable Civil War general of all. They named things after him in the 1880's to teach them ni****ers a lesson. Another favorite was Rep. Preston Brooks, of, yes, South Carolina, who beat a Republican Congressman Charles Sumner nearly to death with a cane. They renamed Brooksville FL for him.
Forrest Gump was named for Forrest, by the way.
Suppose there was a statue honoring Adolph Eichmann or Josef Mengele in Germany. Should it be just left in a park named for him?
That is not all true.
But it is a parcel and part of the attitude that it is fair to exaggerate or lie if it is contrary to racism.
But eventually it is like getting east by going west.
Something can be so blatantly crass that it defames the best of causes.
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Totally agree with what she says but because of her age she does not know the racist aspect that is connected to the flag.
Totally and completely has nothing to do the confederacy certain group co-opted the flag as their symbol and with pain and death burn the memory of the flag to alot of blacks in the sixties. Not saying it's an excuse for violence or damage but stating how it will be not possible for them to lets go.
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The Confederate flag has clearly become a racist symbol.
It is legal for people to display it all they want.
It does not send the message "My greatgranpappy defended his grits factory and cornpone mill against them Yankee invaders". It means "I hate them n*****s, they got too much awready".'
If I were a fan of the flag, I would still not stick it on my bumper. It would educate no one, inform no one of anything worthwhile, and could likely mean that my car would get keyed.
Bumperstickers are by and large not worth the trouble.
But people have the right to display their intolerance.
and every damned thing I said about Forrest was true. He did sell slaves, he was the only CSA general who rose all the way to general through the ranks, he did order the massacre of Black POWs at Fort Pillow,and he was one of the main founders of the Klan.
He mysteriously abandoned the Klan, though. Perhaps he was threatened and not as brave as his reputation.
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and every damned thing I said about Forrest was true. He did sell slaves, he was the only CSA general who rose all the way to general through the ranks, he did order the massacre of Black POWs at Fort Pillow,and he was one of the main founders of the Klan.
If everything you said was true then why when Union General William T. Sherman investigated
the allegations of massacre of Black POW's did he not charge General Forrest with any improprieties?
In fact years later Union General William Tecumseh Sherman stated that had war broken out with Spain
he would have considered it an honor to have served side-by-side with General Forrest..
Forrest an early important figure of the KKK also spoke at the Democratic National Convention.
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Sherman was not noted for his benign attitude to people of races other than his own. After the Civil War, he dedicated himself to the extermination of the Plains Indians.
And his comment about Forrest was out of context. After the War, the Generals became buddies rather often. The KKK was quite welcome in the Democratic Party until the FDR Administration, that is no secret. Woodrow Wilson was a Southerner and a serious racist.
About Fort Pillow:
http://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/fort-pillow-massacre (http://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/fort-pillow-massacre)
As it says, after this, prisoner exchanges ceased.
I see no good reason to honor this evil general as a hero in a public park.
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Forrest was "cleared of any violations of the rules of war in regard to the alleged massacre at Fort Pillow,
and was allowed to return to private life".
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest
An investigation by Union general William T. Sherman did not find any fault with Forrest.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest
Forrest asked President Andrew Jackson for a pardon following the war and attempted to reconcile with his former Yankee foes. He would even invite many former Unionists to call on him at his home. He worked hard to clear his name of guilt in regards to the alleged Fort Pillow Massacre and in the end was absolved from guilt by a Federal board.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest
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President Andrew Jackson died in 1847, way before the Fort Pillow massacre.
Your knowledge of history is seriously flawed.
The Black troops surrendered and he ordered them killed. No one disputes that they were killed, and it was after the battle was over.
This murderer was the founder of the Ku Klux Klan. Why should he be honored in any public park?
Do you revere the Klan? Is that it?
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President Andrew Jackson died in 1847, way before the Fort Pillow massacre.
Your knowledge of history is seriously flawed.
President Andrew Johnson
http://teva.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/johnson/id/1
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Johnson, Jackson, they were all the same, weren't they?
The fact is that the Black soldiers were massacred. And of course, they were Black, and did not count, so rather than prosecute Forrest for his massacre they decided to claim that it was all okay, because it was a war, and the relatives of the massacred Blacks were unlikely to raise a fuss.
But the fact remains that Natan Bedford Forrest was a vile and reprehensible person who founded the Klan and once made his living trading in slaves.
Why does he deserve to have a heroic stature in any public place?
This happened in Tennessee, Andrew Johnson's home state. Sherman was from Louisiana, and although he fought for the Union, that does not mean that he thought Black soldiers had rights or that massacring them was all that bad a thing. The hearing was just another whitewash. The War was overand no one wanted to even think about all the atrocities anymore.
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........................ Sherman was from Louisiana, .....
Ohio?
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Ohio?
Yes XO is wrong once again in this thread.
William Tecumseh Sherman was not from Louisiana, he was from Ohio.
For a guy that boasted "every damned thing I said about Forrest was true"
and proven wrong....another mistake about Sherman is not surprising
We can pretend Sherman was less brutal than Forrest if we want to.
Sherman was not an abolitionist and did not believe in "Negro equality".
During the Civil War, Sherman declined to employ black troops in his armies.
But of course that's all ok with the race-baiters!
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Johnson, Jackson, they were all the same, weren't they?
Louisiana, Ohio, they are all the same, aren't they?
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Sherman was not opposed to slavery and he was in charge of a military Academy in Louisiana.
The issue here is that refusal to prosecute Forrest for his war crimes were professional courtesy, because manking noce with the Confederate generals was considered more important than prosecuting the murder of Black soldiers.
In 1859, Sherman accepted a job as the first superintendent of the Louisiana State Seminary of Learning & Military Academy in Pineville, a position he sought at the suggestion of Major D. C. Buell and secured because of General George Mason Graham.[26] He proved an effective and popular leader of that institution, which would later become Louisiana State University (LSU).[27] Colonel Joseph P. Taylor, the brother of the late President Zachary Taylor, declared that "if you had hunted the whole army, from one end of it to the other, you could not have found a man in it more admirably suited for the position in every respect than Sherman."[28]
Although his brother John was well known as an antislavery congressman, Sherman did not oppose slavery and was sympathetic to Southerners' defense of the institution. He opposed, however, any attempt at dissolving the Union.[29] On hearing of South Carolina's secession from the United States, Sherman observed to a close friend, Professor David F. Boyd of Virginia, an enthusiastic secessionist:
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I suppose that subconsciously CU4 points out that President Obama does not satisfy his criteria for and "authentic" African-American is his justification for hating Obama without having to realize that he is a racist. But then, he also seems to hate Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan as well.
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I suppose that subconsciously CU4 points out that President Obama does not satisfy his criteria for and "authentic" African-American is his justification for hating Obama without having to realize that he is a racist. But then, he also seems to hate Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan as well.
What I "hate" is their race-baiting leftism that uses race in an vile manner to divide people to help further their welfare pimp agendas.
Mr. Race-baiter (XO)...skin color has ZERO to do with it....because if it did why would love I love Clarence Thomas, Dr. Thomas Sowell, JC Watts, Dr. Ben Carson, Congresswoman Mia Love, Condi Rice, Allen West, and Walter Williams? Any of them I would happily vote for in a Presidential race.
(http://blackquillandink.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Dr.jpg)
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Brilliant Summation!! Is Dr. Carson related to Plane? This is the kind of stuff that I marvel at Plane, when he provides such a simple and precise portrayel of current reality
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Ben Carson is clearly a nut.
I wonder if perhaps a compromise is possible.
Bury Nathan Bedford Forrest on Ben Carson's front lawn. Or perhaps Clarence Thomas' front lawn.
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Couldn't refute the premise now, could you. No surprise there, just launch right into the name calling. priceless
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Why does the guy who started the KKK need to be honored in a public park?
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Why does the guy who started the KKK need to be honored in a public park?
There should be a statue of Peter the Great?
You gotta make your hand of what you are dealt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrcUziDUBqY
http://www.jacksonsun.com/story/opinion/2015/07/16/rep-holt-nathan-forrest-one-souths-first-civil-rights-leaders/30246083/
...After a speech that championed equality, unity and love, a large crowd of blacks roared with applause; a young black girl presented Gen. Forrest with a bouquet of flowers, for which he thanked her with kiss on the cheek.
...............By the will of his own conscious, not the force of government, Nathan Bedford Forrest exemplified redemption, love, compassion and reconciliation.
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When Robert E. Lee surrendered to Grant in April, Forrest surrendered as well, declaring that, “any man who is in favor of a further prosecution of this war is a fit subject for a lunatic asylum.”
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/biographies/nathan-bedford-forrest.html
After the war, Forrest is best known as having been a prominent figure in the foundation of the Ku Klux Klan, a group composed of mostly Confederate veterans committed to violent intimidation of blacks, northerners and republicans. He was “Grand Wizard” until he ordered the dissolution of the organization in 1869.
So closely is Forrest's name associated with the Klan, in fact, that he is sometimes incorrectly referred to as its founder. ....
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/palmsprings_200801A41.html
Robert E. Lee and William Tecumseh Sherman called him the most remarkable man, and finest soldier, produced by the war.
In the spring of 1864, low on provisions, Forrest attacked and captured Fort Pillow, a garrison north of Memphis. The incident became perhaps the most controversial military action in the Civil War, as Forrest had at his command more than twice as many soldiers as were occupying the fort, about half of whom were recently freed slaves. Surrounded and outnumbered, the Union forces declined to surrender, and, typically, Forrest was ruthless. His men overran Fort Pillow, taking few prisoners. The Union called the battle a massacre. Forrest would later appear before Congress to defend himself against charges of war crimes, and though he was found not guilty, he was known to many, for the rest of his life, as the Butcher of Fort Pillow.
After only a year as Grand Wizard, in January 1869, faced with an ungovernable membership employing methods that seemed increasingly counterproductive, Forrest issued KKK General Order Number One: "It is therefore ordered and decreed, that the masks and costumes of this Order be entirely abolished and destroyed." By the end of his life, Forrest's racial attitudes would evolve — in 1875, he advocated for the admission of blacks into law school — and he lived to fully renounce his involvement with the all-but-vanished Klan. A new, different, and much worse Klan would emerge, 35 years after Forrest's death,....
Really, is a man who halted the Klan and kept it halted as long as he lived worthy of NO honor?
N B Forest was a rough and violent man, but much more intelligent than most, His efforts to reign in the Klan and encourage peaceful submission to federal authority shouldn't be forgotten by anyone who wants wars to end in peace rather than continuing war.
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Really, is a man who halted the Klan and kept it halted as long as he lived worthy of NO honor?
N B Forest was a rough and violent man, but much more intelligent than most, His efforts to reign in the Klan and encourage peaceful submission to federal authority shouldn't be forgotten by anyone who wants wars to end in peace rather than continuing war.
Don't feel bad, Plane. Jacksonville, FL recently bowed to pressue and renamed Nathan Bedford Forrest High School, though the town itself is named after one of the most racist presidents we ever had.
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“Civil war, such as you have just passed through, naturally engenders feelings of animosity, hatred and revenge. It is our duty to divest ourselves of all such feelings, and, so far as it is
in our power to do so, to cultivate feelings toward those with whom we have so long contested, and heretofore so widely but honestly differed. Whatever your responsibilities may be to
government, to society, or to individuals, meet them like men.”
-Nathan Bedford Forrest
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Really, is a man who halted the Klan and kept it halted as long as he lived worthy of NO honor?
N B Forest was a rough and violent man, but much more intelligent than most, His efforts to reign in the Klan and encourage peaceful submission to federal authority shouldn't be forgotten by anyone who wants wars to end in peace rather than continuing war.
Don't feel bad, Plane. Jacksonville, FL recently bowed to pressue and renamed Nathan Bedford Forrest High School, though the town itself is named after one of the most racist presidents we ever had.
Meh..
This is debate, accuracy is a lot to expect of partisans who have an axe to grind.
President Jackson would indeed be a racist by modern standards , but in those times he fit right in.
There have always been a few racially tolerant people, this being widely observed as a virtue is a recent thing.
If ... it is widely spread, and not just a large illusion.
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Andrew Jackson illegally stole the lands of the Seven Civilized Tribes in the South and sold them, mostly to the owners of futrue slave plantations.
I say illegally because the Supreme Court recognized this as illegal and against the Constitution.
There is a movement to replace him on the $20 bill.
Changing the name of a city is very difficult. Moving a monument is far less difficult. To say that the name of Jacksonville must be changed for the monument to the Father of the Kluxers to be moved is a bogus argument. The movement is not done for logical motives, but for sentimental ones. Sentiments have turned against the Confederacy, which managed to con the country with a bunch of crap about gallantry and tradition for far too long.
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..... Sentiments have turned against the Confederacy, ......
Does this require made up stuff and selective editing of the story?
If the truth is not bad enough, lets improve it ?
NBF is a fascinating story, especially if you get the long version.
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It should be easy to understand why Black folks would be opposed to continuing to honor Forrest with a park and a statue. His oipinion of them was that they should be either slaves or executed for daring to question the White man's authority.
He may have been intelligent. Hitler was intelligent, Goebbles was intelligent Stalin was intelligent.
But none of them are honored with a park in this country.
He started the Klan. If he decided to suspend it, I suspect that he was threatened politely with dearth as an option.
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A large slug of that just isn't true.
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He DID start the Klan.
It is all true.
And he does not merit a place of honor in a public park.
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He DID start the Klan.
It is all true.
And he does not merit a place of honor in a public park.
There is a little detail, that the Klan was begun and widespread before he joined it.
As one of the most famous and admired persons of the region, and as one of the most natural leaders of all time he quickly rose to the top rank and served as the commander for a year.
One Year.
Then he proclaimed the Klan closed , and it stayed closed the rest of his life, about Twenty five years.
So you have mistaken the man who Closed the Klan for the man who Opened the Klan.
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D'oh ;)
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Andrew Jackson illegally stole the lands of the Seven Civilized Tribes in the South and sold them, mostly to the owners of futrue slave plantations.
I say illegally because the Supreme Court recognized this as illegal and against the Constitution.
Jackson's response was along the lines of, they (the Supreme Court) have made their decision, now let them enforce it. Then he sent troops in to remove the tribes. Thousands died along what became known as the Trail of Tears; even more died in Oklahoma from illness, heartbreak, and the failure of the government to meet their obligations under removal. Some were my family members.
Some, including my immediate ancestors, escaped removal by hiding out in the hills and mountains, evading the troops. To this day, the Cherokee tribe is divided between the Western Cherokee, descendants of the survivors of the Trail of Tears in Oklahoma, and the Eastern Cherokee, descendants of those who escaped removal. These are centered around Gatlinburg, TN, famous for the Cherokee in the area and their gatherings there, though they are scattered all over NC, SC, TN, and northern GA and AL. Creeks, Seminoles, Choctaws and other Southeastern tribes also faced removal, and all had members escape removal; the Cherokee group is just the largest and most famous.
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I am thinking Millard Fillmore and Rutherford B Hayes deserve to be on the $20 bill more than Jackson.
But he did have really really good hair.
John Brown, Warren G.Harding and James Buchanan also had good hair, but not quite as good as Jackson.
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Some were my family members.
Some, including my immediate ancestors, escaped removal by hiding out in the hills and mountains, evading the troops. To this day, the Cherokee tribe is divided between the Western Cherokee, descendants of the survivors of the Trail of Tears in Oklahoma, and the Eastern Cherokee, descendants of those who escaped removal. These are centered around Gatlinburg, TN,....
One of these days when there is time I would like to discuss this in detail.
I have family that might be part of this history, but there is a lot of lost information.