DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BT on June 22, 2007, 11:12:19 PM
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Battle for Baqubah
22 June 07
First a quick media round-up. (This is not all-inclusive.)
Alexandra Zavis from Los Angeles Times is down in the heat of the battle bringing home information. Michael Gordon from New York Times is still slugging it out, and his portions are accurate in the co-authored story, “Heavy Fighting as US Troops Squeeze Insurgents in Iraqi City.†(Long title.)
CNN has joined the fight. AP came but will stay only a few days. Joe Klein from TIME was here on the 21st and his story posted the same day and was accurate. We rode together in a Stryker. Like magic, Joe’s story was out before I got back to base. Joe took a helicopter out and filed from elsewhere. I’m having comms problems here which is greatly slowing the flow. My Thuraya satellite phone and RBGAN satellite dish are not working for hours each day. The AP reporter is having the same problems. The signal degradation is caused by a special sort of RF interference. Moving our antennas around won’t work. We simply get cut off for long periods.
I am with 3-2 Stryker Brigade Combat Team. I’ve run a few missions with them in Baghdad, and they have fought all over Iraq. This Brigade has much recent combat experience, and is expertly commanded. A person does not need to even meet the commanders (though I do each day) to know they are running a tight ship. The professionalism of 3-2 is particularly high, and they are very competent fighters who are maximizing their assets, including the incredible Stryker vehicles.
While the name “Stryker†is on the table, apparently controversy is brewing back home whether Strykers should be in our arsenal. The answer is YES: we need all we can get. The Stryker might be the finest all-around combat vehicle in Iraq. But that is a matter for another day, and for professional soldiers to answer.
The combat in Baqubah should soon reach a peak. Al Qaeda seems to have been effectively isolated. The initial attack on 19 June achieved enough surprise that al Qaeda was caught off guard and trapped. They have been beaten back mostly into pockets and are surrounded and will be dealt with. Part of this is actually due to the capability of Strykers. We were able to “attack from the march.†In other words, a huge force drove in from places like Baghdad and quickly locked down Baqubah.
LTG Ray Odierno visited Baqubah on the 21st. Odierno clarified that this battle is to be final: we are not going to do this again. Odierno stressed to our commanders that they need to be thinking of an end-state that results in Iraqis taking charge, but that Iraqi commanders should not be given the reins until they are ready, so that the result is we set them up for success. Odierno’s timing was remarkable: even before he arrived, the commanders here were talking about end-state daily and, on a more sour note, our commanders have their hands full with the local Iraqi commanders who seem less competent (to be kind) than those I have seen elsewhere, such as in Mosul.
Our guys are winning. Al Qaeda is about to be strangled and pummeled to death in this town, but the local Iraqi leadership is severely wanting. This was most obviously noted in one area in particular, where there were some slight indicators of a possible humanitarian need. “Crisis†certainly is not the correct word, but there are displaced persons numbering at least in the hundreds. LTC Fred Johnson actually took me out there. (The access even to “bad†news is amazing with this Brigade.)
I have been with LTC Fred Johnson for several days. LTC Johnson seems to recharge on sunlight or moonlight and can run a man into the ground. After seeing the humanitarian need building with no action to abate it underway, Johnson was very unhappy. He immediately started jerking choke chains on the people who are supposed to be handling humanitarian need, trying to avert having it build into a crisis.
This is where the inept local Iraqi commanders come in. I’ve seen them in meeting after meeting, over the past few days, finding ways to be underachievers. The Iraqi commanders have dozens of large trucks and have only to drive to our base to collect the supplies and distribute those supplies to the people displaced in the battle. Our troops are fully engaged in combat, yet the Iraqi leaders were not able to carry that load without LTC Johnson supplying the initiative. The Kurds would have had this fixed yesterday. The Iraqi commanders in Mosul would have fixed this. The local Iraqi command climate is disappointing by comparison.
Later I spoke with Major Jerry Gardner who is in charge of humanitarian needs. Gardner said he has 70,000 kilos each of flour and rice (bought from Iraq), and enough bottled water to keep 5,000 people going for 15 days. He can get three times that amount with a phone call. He’s got about 30,000 MREs, and also a complete “W.H.O. kit†that he says can feed 30,000 people for a month. Gardner said he can get four more kits like that if needed.
The need is not at the level of a crisis, but the need for those few hundred is becoming more serious. They have small children. Our soldiers took me out there and let me talk with the people as long as I wanted to. The kids wanted their photos taken and were happy, but the moms looked worried. All males between ages 15-55 are being screened before being allowed to pass through the cordon. People are trying to escape the fighting, but we made this mistake in places like Tal Afar and Fallujah where our people attacked and left huge escape routes. This time, the number one priority is to trap and destroy al Qaeda.
On information flow, as of noon in Baqubah on 22 June, the press is starting to flood in. The Public Affairs Office and the press climate at this Brigade are A+. Access is actually better than I have ever seen, and that is saying a great deal. A PAO officer told me that about 20 press should be here over the next days, so we should be able to get reports from many independent sources and compare and contrast. The access is unbelievably good. They are not holding back the good, bad or the ugly. Press who aren’t here in Baqubah with 3-2 Stryker Brigade are missing out. However . . . the press who are here are wasting huge amounts of time on trivial matters that are occurring above the level of 3-2.
There are serious technical problems that I have brought up privately to high-ranking PAO officers over the past nearly two years which persist today, despite that any one of them could be easily resolved with better planning on the part of PAO. I’ve found that communicating with them privately is generally useless. (Obviously, as the problems persist.) A person has got to tell a million people before they are heard. Since it will affect how the news from here gets reported, and since I know the other writers here are often afraid to speak up about this stuff (one senior PAO officer actually threatened to kick me out a few months ago), I’ll take the heat on telling the million people:
I could be in combat now, but have been wasting time trying to get a badge to get into the dining facility. Got one. Not a big deal, until you add that up for 20 reporters all wasting part of their very limited time (we are in a war), and soldiers’ time (they are fighting it) getting ridiculous paperwork when the Press ID could simply say, “Unescorted access to dining facilities is authorized. Please call DSN 867 5309 with any questions.†Simple solution. I have wasted hours on the issue of eating over the past few days. It adds up when your time windows open and close unpredictably and rapidly.
On communications, senior Public Affairs officers knew this battle was unfolding. It would have taken practically zero assets to set up a media shack or tent in advance. The shack or tent only needs to have electrical outlets and an internet dish, along with phone lines. Cots would be nice but I can sleep in the dirt. (Sleeping arrangements here are excellent. I’m in a tent with soldiers and have a cot.) We need a dedicated dish and phone lines because for hours each day our RBGANS are not working, nor are our Thuraya sat-phones. All those reporters flooding out here are about to flood into difficult reporting terrain. Cell phones do not work in Baqubah.
Public Affairs should have known this months ago. Valuable stories about our soldiers and the battle are being lost and will never be filed because reporters, after a long day of being on the battlefield, cannot make a simple phone call, or file a story. Why be here? It’s pretty dangerous, and insurance is expensive. I had to skip a mission this morning because I cannot make communications, and am down to filing stories on the fly again without time for editing. There is no other way to keep the flow open, and if you are reading this, it’s only after I’ve wasted hours trying to upload it. Hours I could have been with our soldiers, telling about their days in one of the most important battles of this war.
Otherwise, the battle is going very well. A big fight seems to be brewing. As of about noon in Baqubah on the 22nd, there seems to be a lull in the fighting. A calm. This is about to get wet. At the going rate, al Qaeda in Baqubah will soon have two choices: Surrender, or die.
http://michaelyon-online.com/wp/surrender-or-die.htm
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It's a long war, BT. Al Qaeda can take a few lumps. They've got all the time in the world.
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Yeah, i never give up hope for my team in the first half.
perhaps AQ will be able to escape and publish the sequel to their torture manual.
Instead of drills perhaps fun with Skil Saws is more to your liking.
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Boy, one sure does get the impression Tee's really rooting for AlQeada on this one. Perhaps another 911, or better yet, several at the same time :P
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Both teams suck, I wouldn't root for either one of them. I gotta admit, that torture manual was a new low. Negroponte must have told them about his exploits in Central America.
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Both teams suck, I wouldn't root for either one of them.
Sure doesn't look that way. Rarely are their any blanket condemnations directed at AlQeada, that i've noted
I gotta admit, that torture manual was a new low.
Just a Rovian plant, obviously, right?
Negroponte must have told them about his exploits in Central America.
Gotta love the rationalization efforts
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There is good news and bad news here. We are prevailing in the actual fighting, but that is only with a remnant of al Qaeda forces, up to 70%, I understand having fled the province in advance on tips that the offensive was in the offing.
What Michael says about a long war is dead-on correct.
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Al-Qaida's End?
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, June 22, 2007 4:20 PM PT
Iraq War: You've no doubt heard of Paris Hilton, and of Rosie O'Donnell as well. We're pretty sure you know what Barry Bonds is up to. But have you ever heard of Arrowhead Ripper? The likely answer is no.
But if that's the case, it's not your fault. Arrowhead Ripper isn't an athlete, a TV star or a person famous for being famous. It's the code name for a massive U.S.-led assault under way in Iraq's Diyala province ? an undertaking that has garnered token media coverage since it began Tuesday.
After getting some initial front-page treatment in major U.S. newspapers, the story was pushed back to page 18 in the Washington Post Thursday and Page 10 in The New York Times on Friday. The Los Angeles Times ran a front pager Thursday, then nothing.
Meanwhile, NPR radio this week highlighted U.S. soldiers' deaths during the assaults, with nary a mention of the bigger context for the soldiers' sacrifices.
The Associated Press' dispatches focused on U.S. casualties: "U.S. military says 15 American troops killed in last 48 hours." CNN ran with: "12 U.S. troops killed in Iraq in 48 hours." The New York Times headline read: "14 U.S. Troops Killed in Iraq in 2 Days."
Surprisingly, only Reuters seemed to get what was going on. Its headline said: "U.S. troops set trap for militants near Baghdad."
Never mind that the aforementioned headlines don't seem to agree on the number of deaths. What needs to be said is this is one of the war's largest operations to date, and perhaps the most significant. If successful, it could push al-Qaida out of Iraq. It also might lay the groundwork for an eventual war-ending peace.
This operation also stands out because the U.S.-led assault force has explicitly made it a goal to "eliminate" the enemy ? not to let it slip away, then watch as it returns to bring more chaos and terror to Diyala province.
Michael Yon, a blogger who is embedded with the 3/2 Stryker Brigade Combat Team in Diyala, has written extensively at his Web site (michaelyon-online.com) about the battle. He's also taken some dramatic pictures. He's a brave journalist, and his site is worth a visit.
Here, in an e-mail to the highly popular Instapundit Web site, is what Yon had to say about what's going on:
"It's Friday evening 22 June. Operation Arrowhead Ripper continues to unfold. The operation is going very well. This looks like it will become a serious problem for al-Qaida."
That, of course, would be great. But then, if the media don't start covering it seriously, we may never know.
We can be sure, however, that if Arrowhead Ripper is less successful than hoped, we'll be treated to an endless number of "Diyala: What Went Wrong?" retrospectives.
The fight will go on for up to two months, military officials say. It involves 10,000 troops, with "a full complement of attack helicopters, close-air support, Strykers and Bradley fighting vehicles."
Using unusually blunt language, Army Brig. Gen. Mick Bednarek told American Forces Press Service, "The end state is to destroy the al-Qaida influences in this province and eliminate the threat against the people. That is the No. 1, bottom-line, up-front, in-your-face task and purpose."
And so far, it's working, with dozens of terrorists killed. It bears watching. But sadly, if the successes pile up, it won't be long until the story's pushed even further back in the nation's newspapers.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=267405225211303
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The Americans said they had not found any indication that insurgent fighters had fled Baquba.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/21/world/middleeast/21iraq.html?ex=1340078400&en=cf83ce0caef89b9b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
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Early reports that I heard are reflected in my previous. If they be incorrect, all the better for our side. As to the media play-up of the offensive, in a way you can consider it a casualty not only of journalistic judgment but administration management of the war. Specifically, refusing to call for a shared sacrifice and thus a shared mission by the American people, and leaving morale-building among the populace to exhortation and diffuse pleas to patriotic sensibilities, the administration, in a sense, has orphaned the war. But the overriding reason for the reaction by the media is just plain skepticism for the climactic potential of yet one more "last, best hope" military mission in a string that began, ironically, with mission accomplished.
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There is a school of thought that says the administration did not orphan this war. The school of thought says that americans want the war on terror and the war in Iraq to go well but a certain segment of the population has a dreaded and palpable fear that if these ventures do go well Bush will get credit and that won't stand.
What do you think? Any merits to the argument?
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I'm about to start my Saturday evening so I'll be brief. What you say represents a clear strain among the electorate, but, in my judgment, the forces driving coverage-noncoverage and all knidred matters are better explained by my previous post.
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Coverage non coverage is decided by the MSM. And recent studies show that as a whole their political stances are not as diverse as one would hope.
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Last reading I took was at somewhere of 85+% voting Democrat last 2 election cycles
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<<Perhaps another 911, or better yet, several at the same time >>
Cute. As if, with 600,000 Iraqis dead in the wake of the invasion, the U.S. hadn't already inflicted TWO HUNDRED 911s on Iraq. Oh, but with the very best of intentions, of course. To bring them "democracy." If anyone still believes the lying bastards.
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<<Gotta love the rationalization efforts>> [my attempt to point out that as repulsive as the al Qaeda torture manual may be, there is nothing in there that wasn't first used by U.S. -sponsored death squads in El Salvador and Guatemala. Or for that matter by U.S.-backed dictators in Argentina and Chile.]
What I "gotta love" is sirs' asinine attempts to claim moral superiority over al Qaeda when both his cause and theirs belong together in the same moral cesspool.
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<<The Associated Press' dispatches focused on U.S. casualties: "U.S. military says 15 American troops killed in last 48 hours." CNN ran with: "12 U.S. troops killed in Iraq in 48 hours." The New York Times headline read: "14 U.S. Troops Killed in Iraq in 2 Days."
<<Surprisingly, only Reuters seemed to get what was going on. Its headline said: "U.S. troops set trap for militants near Baghdad.">>
I think maybe AP and CNN realize that the dead U.S. soldiers are gone for good, but the "trapped militants" are easily replaced. They will go on fighting as long as they are occupied by fascists who have come to steal their oil and enslave them under puppet governments like Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan.
<<Never mind that the aforementioned headlines don't seem to agree on the number of deaths. What needs to be said is this is one of the war's largest operations to date, and perhaps the most significant. If successful, it could push al-Qaida out of Iraq. It also might lay the groundwork for an eventual war-ending peace.>>
Oh yeah. That'll happen.
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Oh yeah. That'll happen.
Why not?
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<<Gotta love the rationalization efforts>>
What I "gotta love" is sirs' asinine attempts to claim moral superiority over al Qaeda when both his cause and theirs belong together in the same moral cesspool.
The cesspool of course being the asanine notion that AlQeada and the U.S. are equivalent in both their intentions & actions
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<<The cesspool of course being the asanine notion that AlQeada and the U.S. are equivalent in both their intentions & actions>>
I'd say the U.S. is actually worse because they know better.
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<<The cesspool of course being the asanine notion that AlQeada and the U.S. are equivalent in both their intentions & actions>>
I'd say the U.S. (those trying to bring democracy to a dictator run nation, who go out of their way to limit civilian casualties, and who will prosecute those they've determined abused thier positions, while in the military) is actually worse (than AlQeada, who openly target innocent women & children, will burn prisoners alive, and behead them for all to see, while giving high 5's to themselves) because they know better.
I rest my case. Thanks Tee
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I realize that you quoted me accurately in the red-ink portions, sirs, but I disagree with the textual "clarifications" that you gratuitously inserted in between the red parts. So thanks very much, but I'll do my own clarification of my own remarks, and here it is:
I'd say the U.S. (those trying to invade a Third World country and steal its oil, who have caused so far 600,000 fatal civilian casualties, and who will prosecute a few low-ranking scapegoats for the torture and murder of prisoners, allowing all the others and all the superior officers who knew or ought to have known about the torture and murder, and who still continue to torture prisoners held illegaly in torture chambers around the world, to get off scot-free) is actually worse (than AlQeada, who openly target innocent women & children, although killing them in far less numbers than their U.S. adversaries, will burn prisoners alive, although without the benefit of napalm or white phosphorus or similar material favoured by U.S. forces for burning people alive, and behead them for all to see, rather than beating them slowly to death, suffocating them in sleeping bags or raping them first, U.S.-style, while giving high 5's to themselves, which they also learned from Americans) because they know better.
Now, THAT'S more like it.
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because they know better.
Ah yes, the straw man about Americans being non violent genteel folk raises it's ugly head.
We kill each other for tennis shoes for crissakes.
We shoot each other for failure to use a turn signal.
Sometimes we kill each other because we don't like their looks.
so how come Americans are morally superior?
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<<Ah yes, the straw man about Americans being non violent genteel folk raises it's ugly head.
<<We kill each other for tennis shoes for crissakes.
<<We shoot each other for failure to use a turn signal.
<<Sometimes we kill each other because we don't like their looks. >>
Judge America by its lowest common denominator if you wish. All countries have their violent criminals and in that sense are indistinguishable one from another.
Most normal, sane people in the world tended to judge America by its best - - from the preamble to the Declaration of Independence, to the Bill of Rights, to the Gettysburg Address, to FDR and the founding of the United Nations and the hopes for a new world without war and the rule of international law. They respected a country which led the fight against fascism without stooping to the level of the fascists themselves. Which respected human rights, even the rights of the prisoners they took in battle. Which never stood accused of torture and murder of prisoners.
And America does know better. Witness the Americans who have denounced torture, from Lanya right here in this column to Al Gore, who has issued one of the most eloquent denunciations of the criminal Bush regime that I have seen to date.
<<so how come Americans are morally superior?>>
I never said they were morally superior. I said their heritage was morally superior to their enemies' heritage. They had better examples to follow. That they have failed those examples is the tragedy. It's also the measure of their moral inferiority.
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Judge America by its lowest common denominator if you wish.
Isn't that what you meant when you claimed the military was made up of low hanging fruit? And those who commit these atrocities are in the military are they not? So why should they know better?
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<<So why should they know better?>>
Leadership, BT. It's called leadership. Something that's pathetically inadequate in the present administration. You can't expect people who function at the moral level of a snake or lower to set any kind of example for the lower ranks, now, can you?
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I realize that you quoted me accurately in the red-ink portions, sirs, but I disagree with the textual "clarifications" that you gratuitously inserted in between the red parts. So thanks very much, but I'll do my own clarification of my own remarks, and here it is:
I'd say the U.S. (those trying to invade a Third World country and steal its oil, who have caused so far 600,000 fatal civilian casualties, and who will prosecute a few low-ranking scapegoats for the torture and murder of prisoners, allowing all the others and all the superior officers who knew or ought to have known about the torture and murder, and who still continue to torture prisoners held illegaly in torture chambers around the world, to get off scot-free) is actually worse (than AlQeada, who openly target innocent women & children, although killing them in far less numbers than their U.S. adversaries, will burn prisoners alive, although without the benefit of napalm or white phosphorus or similar material favoured by U.S. forces for burning people alive, and behead them for all to see, rather than beating them slowly to death, suffocating them in sleeping bags or raping them first, U.S.-style, while giving high 5's to themselves, which they also learned from Americans) because they know better.
Now, THAT'S (Tee's tee leaf delusional opinion on how evil the American military and the U.S. are, and the associated invalid & unsubstantiated rationalizations) more like it.
Yea, that is more like it. You'll let us know when we start high fiving and giving medals to those who behead and burn people alive, k? ::)
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Leadership, BT. It's called leadership. Something that's pathetically inadequate in the present administration. You can't expect people who function at the moral level of a snake or lower to set any kind of example for the lower ranks, now, can you?
The leadership is of the people also. Duly elected twice. And all throughout the chain of miltary command, staffed by sons and daughters of america.
Again why should they know better. Why are they morally superior to their AQ counterparts. Seems almost patronizing to assume Muslim counterparts are not up to the high moral plain that you insist Americans should hold to.
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The leadership is of the people also. Duly elected twice. And all throughout the chain of miltary command, staffed by sons and daughters of america.
69% of the American public has confidence in the military. Compared to 14% that have confidence in Congress.
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/16252 (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/16252)
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<<You'll let us know when we start high fiving and giving medals to those who behead and burn people alive, k? >>
Yeah sure I'll let you know. It's already happened.
Ask that schmuck John McCain who all that napalm he dropped landed on. Find out how many decorations were given out for bathing Falluja in willie peter. And ask anyone what bomb or shell your Army uses that kills people without beheading them.
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<<The leadership is of the people also.>>
You're shitting me.
<< Duly elected twice. >>
Now I KNOW you're shitting me.
<<And all throughout the chain of miltary command, staffed by sons and daughters of america. >>
Yeah, I know that. Like anyone would think Lynndie England was French.
<<Again why should they know better. >>
Their leaders should - - they had better examples.
<<Why are they morally superior to their AQ counterparts.>>
They're just as bad as AQ - - that's my whole point. But they should know better, and I blame the leadership. The leadership of the U.S.A. has better examples to follow than the leadership of AQ.
<< Seems almost patronizing to assume Muslim counterparts are not up to the high moral plain that you insist Americans should hold to. >>
Alright, so show me the Muslim equivalent of the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence. What's the Muslim equivalent of the Bill of Rights? Patronizing, my ass! You yourself don't believe for a minute that their civilization has produced anything close to the Anglo-American accomplishments in human rights and the rule of law. If America lived up to its heritage, everyone would respect her; and when she doesn't, it's a much worse betrayal than anything that AQ could possibly do. Regime change in Iraq won't do a God-damn thing to advance the cause of humanity. Where regime change is really needed is in Washington. And I'm not talking about a Clinton/Obama/Edwards administration because they're no better in that respect than the Republicans.
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And I'm not talking about a Clinton/Obama/Edwards administration because they're no better in that respect than the Republicans.
So you are saying they don't know better either. Wish you would make up your mind.
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<<You'll let us know when we start high fiving and giving medals to those who behead and burn people alive, k? >>
Yeah sure I'll let you know. It's already happened. Ask that schmuck John McCain who all that napalm he dropped landed on. Find out how many decorations were given out for bathing Falluja in willie peter. And ask anyone what bomb or shell your Army uses that kills people without beheading them.
Leave it to Tee to have to go back to Vietnam, when our smart bombs weren't so smart to try and lay claim to the same actions being done now. Leave it to Tee to reference more tragic collateral death as analogus to AlQeada beheading someone on TV for all to see. You're beyond pathetic, Tee
Yet, I understand. Must fit template, must fit template. U.S. = evil. U.S. military = worse than evil, worse than even AlQeada. Everything MUST feed that template, so the above grotesque rationalizations are thus employed. Doesn't matter that when we do find soldiers that went south in their conduct, they're brought up on charges and prosecuted. Doesn't matter all the efforts we go to to avoid innocent civilian death. Doesn't matter how much effort we put into using smart weapons. Doesn't matter how many american Deaths are at the result of going door to door thru neighborhoods. In fact, that's one of the crowning hypocritical cries. When the U.S is using artillary or stand off weapons, they're cowards for not getting "down and dirty" with the enemy. When they go toe to toe, they're bastards for any collateral death that occurs then, when the enemy is hiding among and behind them. Must fit template, must fit template, U.S military is worse than AlQeada, all of whom are low hanging barbaric rapists, because..............Tee says so >:(
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I can't understand you, sirs. You asked me to let you know when America gave out medals for burning people alive and I told you. You asked me what Americans got medals for beheading people and I told you that too.
You didn't like my answers, because they show you how full of shit you are. I'm sorry.
Too bad you didn't ask me to let you know when America gives out medals for slitting the throats of grandmas and little girls, and I would have told you that too: Bob Kerrey, Silver Star, Viet Nam.
No, don't thank me, sirs. That was a pleasure.
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On the contrary, demonstrating your blinding hatred and pathetic rationalization efforts, was all mine
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That's what I like about debating things with you, sirs, it's a win-win proposition.
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Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle 8)