DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Amianthus on June 23, 2007, 02:57:31 PM
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Eliza Strickland
06.21.07 | 2:00 AM
Vision Robotics is developing a machine to trim grapevines in the fall.
As if the debate over immigration and guest worker programs wasn't complicated enough, now a couple of robots are rolling into the middle of it.
Vision Robotics, a San Diego company, is working on a pair of robots that would trundle through orchards plucking oranges, apples or other fruit from the trees. In a few years, troops of these machines could perform the tedious and labor-intensive task of fruit picking that currently employs thousands of migrant workers each season.
The robotic work has been funded entirely by agricultural associations, and pushed forward by the uncertainty surrounding the migrant labor force. Farmers are "very, very nervous about the availability and cost of labor in the near future," says Vision Robotics CEO Derek Morikawa.
It's a surprising new market for Vision Robotics, which had been focused on developing consumer devices, including a robotic vacuum cleaner to compete with iRobot's Roomba.
When a member of the California Citrus Research Board approached the company in 2004, Morikawa was doubtful that an effective robotic picker was even feasible. A citrus grower brought the skeptical engineers to an orange farm in California's fertile Central Valley, where they walked down the neat rows of trees and stared at the oranges hanging in the branches.
Previous attempts at making a mechanical harvester were thwarted by inefficiency, explains Morikawa. In the past, experimental machines approached a tree as a human would, picking one piece of fruit and then looking for the next. In this slow process, the machine circled the tree repeatedly until it was sure it had picked all the fruit.
Morikawa says his engineers had their breakthrough idea right there in the orange grove. They realized that the task could be divided between two robots: One would locate all the oranges, and the second would pick them. "Once you know where all the fruit is, then it becomes an easy job to calculate the most efficient way to pick it all," says Morikawa.
But it wasn't just technological challenges that held back previous attempts at building a mechanical harvester –- politics got involved, too. Cesar Chavez, the legendary leader of the United Farm Workers, began a campaign against mechanization back in 1978.
Chavez was outraged that the federal government was funding research and development on agricultural machines, but not spending any money to aid the farm workers who would be displaced. In the '80s, that simmering anger merged with a growing realization that the technology was nowhere near ready, and government funding dried up.
This time around, growers' associations are funding the research. By the end of this year, the orange growers will have invested almost $1 million in the project, says Ted Baskin, president of the California Citrus Research Board. He estimates that it will take about $5 million more to get to the finished product.
The farmers are willing to pay up because they've been rattled by a labor shortage over the past few years -- California growers tell horror stories of watching their fruit rot on the trees as they waited for the picking crews to arrive. Last fall, growers rallied in front of the U.S. Capitol, frustrated that Congress still hadn't created a program to ease the passage of foreign guest workers across the Mexico border.
With the supply-and-demand equation uncertain, growers see the robots as a better option. "You can predict what it's going to cost to buy a machine and maintain it," says Baskin. "You can't predict the bargaining that we go through with contract labor," he says.
The two robots would work as a team: one an eagle-eyed scout, the other a metallic octopus with a gentle touch. The first robot will scan the tree and build a 3-D map of the location and size of each orange, calculating the best order in which to pick them. It sends that information to the second robot, a harvester that will pick the tree clean, following a planned sequence that keeps its eight long arms from bumping into each other.
The Vision Robotics engineers are currently building the scout. They expect to have a prototype ready next year, with the harvester to follow two or three years later. Baskin says he doesn't expect the mechanical systems to pose any serious problems. The hard work is writing the software. After the scout robot makes a 3-D map of the tree, it has to evaluate each piece of fruit. What size is the orange? What color is it? Does it have black spots on it? "It's a question of gathering the information, and then judging whether it meets the parameters that are equal to a good orange," Baskin says.
Vision Robotics has been working on that problem for almost four years now, which might give some reassurance to human pickers. The United Farm Workers' leaders say they aren't worried about the robots, because they don't believe the machines will ever be able to do the job as well as people. Spokesman Marc Grossman predicts that mechanical hands will damage the fruit and make it unappealing for supermarket shoppers. "There are already machines that will pick wine grapes, but the high end wine growers don’t use them, because they want the quality," Grossman says.
Farmers don't seem to share that concern. The Washington Tree Fruit Commission started investing in the project last year, and Vision Robotics is talking to other agricultural groups with crops ranging from cherries to asparagus.
Article (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/06/robo_picker)
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Uh ohh, this isn't going to sit well with the illegal immigrant lobby :o
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Yes, but Brass will be very happy.
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Uh ohh, this isn't going to sit well with the illegal immigrant lobby :o
Yeah, well, this only addresses half the problem. Now we need a roving ass-kicking machine that will patrol the border.
I expect that would make the illegal immigrant lobby even more unhappy. ;D
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One could only wish
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Gosh, I was under the impression that robots would NEVER be sensitive enough to pick fruit.
What's next? Strawberry-picking robots????
John Deere already has a GPS guided tractor system available to buy TODAY.
http://stellarsupport.deere.com/en_US/
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Uh ohh, this isn't going to sit well with the illegal immigrant lobby :o
What makes you think so?
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Uh ohh, this isn't going to sit well with the illegal immigrant lobby :o
What makes you think so?
Because in large part, that's where a large # are usually exploi.....I mean employed. I kinda though you'd know that Prince. Then again, you probably do, and have posed such a question to reference some other point. My supposed dislike towards immigrants in general perhaps?
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Because in large part, that's where a large # are usually exploi.....I mean employed.
That you seem to be equating employment with exploitation is interesting.
I kinda though you'd know that Prince.
I suspected that would be your reasoning, though I try not to assume. So I asked.
Then again, you probably do, and have posed such a question to reference some other point. My supposed dislike towards immigrants in general perhaps?
No, I was merely wondering why you made the remark.
As a capitalist and libertarian who opposes strict immigration control on basic humanitarian grounds (I have no idea if that puts me in the "illegal immigrant lobby" by your standards), I am not in the least put off by the idea of robots picking fruit. Quite the contrary. I'm all for it. Just don't expect me to jump on the sure to come "American robots picking American fruit for Americans" bandwagon.
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That you seem to be equating employment with exploitation is interesting.
That you seem to giving a pass to those who exploit illegal immigrants is also very interesting. I mean, if you're going to make an outlandish conclusion on my part, best I do the same I suppose, doncha think?
I suspected that would be your reasoning, though I try not to assume. So I asked. I was merely wondering why you made the remark.
Hopefully then, I've quelled your query
As a capitalist and libertarian who opposes strict immigration control on basic humanitarian grounds (I have no idea if that puts me in the "illegal immigrant lobby" by your standards), I am not in the least put off by the idea of robots picking fruit. Quite the contrary. I'm all for it. Just don't expect me to jump on the sure to come "American robots picking American fruit for Americans" bandwagon.
As a Capitalist and Conservative who supports legal immigration on basic national security and patriotic grounds
A) I never would have put you in the "illegal immigrant lobby". I actually put illegal immigrants in the illegal immigrant lobby
B) I'm glad you have no problem with fruit picking robots, though if you had, I don't think I would have had a problem with that either
C) Not sure what your "American robots" rant is all about, but hey, whatever floats your boat
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hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
isn`t this the beggining of RBE
robot based economy
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UP, don't be so hard on sirs. He likes cheap fruit so he knows that farmers and the like must have really cheap labor and people so desperate for money to buy food and support their families that they'll agree to be really cheap labor so their kids can have food, clothing, housing, schooling, a doctor visit once in a while and so forth but on the other hand, as with all real conservatives, he's conflicted because he loves America and wants Americans to come in first in all things even if one of those things is the "Being Cheap Labor" race so naturally he doesn't like it when "illegal immigrants" come in and "steal" that race by being cheaper than an American can possibly be and afford the things an "illegal immigrant" can back home. (Ironic isn't it that the "illegal immigrants" are simply operating within the capitalist system just like anyone else would?)
So, he's kind of screwed all the way around. He can't have cheap fruit AND keep out illegal immigrants AND have Americans work for less than they could possibly live on in order for him to have his apples that don't cost $4 a piece.
Ergo, when someone starts calling him on all of his conflicting views, he gets a little defensive.
What's crazy about the new bill is that it is saying to "illegal immigrants" that they should go ahead and try to become citizens but they will have to be punished for breaking our laws first. What's the upside for them? Citizenship? Why should they care when they have all the rights already and NO punishment?
The wife and I sometimes tussle over this because I'm not for allowing them to just get "amnesty" after other real Americans have busted their asses for years on the real path to citizenship and become more intelligent Americans than most native born Americans! Amnesty rewards the criminals. On the other hand, I'm not against immigration in general so I'm not sure what the answer really is.
Therein lies the whole of the matter. Saying, "I don't know what the answer is yet" is better than screwing the people who have played by the rules.
Clearly, we could turn to an RBE and alleviate a lot of the problem but not everyone is as elevated in their thinking as I am.
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The wife and I sometimes tussle over this because I'm not for allowing them to just get "amnesty" after other real Americans have busted their asses for years on the real path to citizenship and become more intelligent Americans than most native born Americans! Amnesty rewards the criminals. On the other hand, I'm not against immigration in general so I'm not sure what the answer really is.
The problem I have with the "amnesty rewards criminals" bit is that in this case the law is unjust and the people who broke it shouldn't be criminals, imo. Consider it unintentional civil disobedience.
Therein lies the whole of the matter. Saying, "I don't know what the answer is yet" is better than screwing the people who have played by the rules.
Perhaps, but it doesn't address the problem that is harming the people who haven't played by the, imo, unjust rules.
Clearly, we could turn to an RBE and alleviate a lot of the problem but not everyone is as elevated in their thinking as I am.
Pooh yi.
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UP, don't be so hard on sirs. He likes cheap fruit so.......
Well, there's that 'ol line yet again......start with a false premise, no need to go any further
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The fact is that there is no difference between replacing orange picking humans with orange picking machines and replacing humans swinging scythes with harvester combines, other than the difference in technical difficulty.
If it is more economical to use machines than humans, then machines will inevitably be used, and more rapidly if the labor is unskilled or easily learned.
It would probably be easier to have robotic lawyers than robotic automotive electricians, because the skill level is higher for the latter. Of course, cars are standardized to a degree that humans are not, and lawyers (perhaps those less skilled) are those who end up writing the laws, so I am not holding my breath on this one).
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Who will own these robots?
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Who will own these robots?
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Rich people, of course. because they will be quite expensive.
Basically rich people buy stuff for two reasons:
(a) stuff to impress others: Rolex watches, Malibu mansions, Lamborghinis. Jimmy Choo Shoes.
(b) stuff to make them richer.
Robots of this sort are of the second type. Basically. members of the same social class as people who once owned slaves.
Except owning robots is not going to be illegal.
Eventually, there will be pig and cattle-butchering robots and chicken-plucking and dismembering robots, and watching this huge machine murder, bleed and dismember dumb animals will be truly grisly to watch, so they won't put them on TV, until some clever guy videotapes it and sticks it on YouTube, and it will provoke a lot of controversy, which will die down like the photos of Abu Graib.
Eventually, we will continue to eat the robomurdered hogs, cows and chickens and will try hard to not think about it and will assuage our guilty consciounces with the though that we are not controlling these evildoing machines.
The hogs, cows and chickens will suffer for shorter periods of time, but this does not mean that we will see it this way.
Wait and see. You know that this will happen.
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for some reason this reminds me of the cotton gin
this might increase labor demands since this makes higher harvesting yields
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I noticed these words on some lunchmeat the other day:
"mechanically separated meat", which made me imagine what the machine might look like.
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umm
mechanically separated meat
It`s actually quite good
potted meat is made of it
with mayo on a ritz that`s good eatin.
I think it`s origins relates to how spam came about.
technology it sooo wonderful atimes
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I didn't say it tasted bad.
But 'mechanically separated meat" sounds grisly. I can't help but think of (a) what the machine that did this might look like, and (b) then I think about the fact that said machine would not know the difference between a dead animal andf a live one (or me, for example). This gives me the creeps.
I don't know anyone who has a mechanical meat separator. I can't find a picture of one online, either.
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I don't know anyone who has a mechanical meat separator. I can't find a picture of one online, either.
(http://www.dbdmart.com/lifesigngatc/img-lib/spd_20060617225556_b.jpg)
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Eventually, we will continue to eat the robomurdered hogs, cows and chickens and will try hard to not think about it and will assuage our guilty consciounces with the though that we are not controlling these evildoing machines.
Speak for yourself. I'll be too busy enjoying eating the meat.
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UP, don't be so hard on sirs. He likes cheap fruit so.......
Well, there's that 'ol line yet again......start with a false premise, no need to go any further
So, you're quibbling with the assumption that you like cheap fruit?
Are you then proposing that you don't like cheap fruit ergo you prefer expensive fruit?
Or are you proposing instead that don't like fruit at all?
Or are you proposing that you like fruit but price has no bearing on you're liking it?
Would you be more inclined to agree with the premise if I were to change "cheap" to "inexpensive"?
And even more importantly, did you even fucking read the whole thing because my assumption that you, like most people who consume fruit, are inclined to like your fruit to not cost $50 a pound is but only a part of the whole conundrum of the immigration issue and my assumptions about your stance on that issue based on the profile I have developed of you through several years of your constant, moronic blathering.
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UP, don't be so hard on sirs. He likes cheap fruit so.......
Well, there's that 'ol line yet again......start with a false premise, no need to go any further
So, you're quibbling with the assumption that you like cheap fruit? Are you then proposing that you don't like cheap fruit ergo you prefer expensive fruit?
I'm debunking your notion that sirs wants cheap fruit. Sirs doesn't mind cheap fruit, but not at the cost of our national security, sovereignty, & rule of law. Sirs likes fruit priced at what the market says fruit ought to be priced at. If illegal immigration were enforced, the price of fruit would indeed likely go up, as Fruit Growers would be unable to exploit those just trying to come to America, and largely price out legal immigrants. Sirs has no problem if the price were to go up as a result.
Perhaps next time you'll think before you type
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Ok, I'll cede whatever nitpickery you are deeming as necessary to truly represent your position.
I'd like to ask you this though, by your comments, it seems that you feel that the farmers are exploiting those just trying to come to America so do you feel that there should be some punishment meted to those growers for employing illegal immigrants regardless of what your inclinations are for the illegal immigrants and what should be done with or to them for coming here illegally?
For in discussions with the wife on this subject, it is our opinion that until the employment of said illegal immigrants becomes so high-risk a practice thus stemming the demand for the illegal immigrant's oh so succulent low-cost labor, illegal immigration will continue in the same way that till we make life better for so many Americans that they won't seek to escape into the fog of marijuana, the high-octane joy of X or the fast-forward framing of cocaine those illegal immigrations will also continue.
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Ok, I'll cede whatever nitpickery you are deeming as necessary to truly represent your position.
You want to minimize your gross misrepresentation of my position as "nitpickery", you go right ahead
I'd like to ask you this though ....do you feel that there should be some punishment meted to those growers for employing illegal immigrants regardless of what your inclinations are for the illegal immigrants and what should be done with or to them for coming here illegally?
Yes.
Anyone that knowingly hires illegal immigrants, exploiting them in order to pay lower wages, and minimize (if completely ignoring) their tax obligations, should be prosecuted for those laws that are already on the books. I'm still fascinated in watching how so many who support easing, if not abolishing immigration requirements, seem to shed not a peep of protest at those individuals/companies/corporations who will undercut legal immigrants and American citizens, & grossly paying illegals under minimum salary wages. I'm equally fascinated at the sheer lack of condemnation towards entities such as Bank of America, who openly were aiming credit cards to "undocumented immigrants" (read illegal), that required a massive deposit (for them), a credit limit that was likely only equal to that deposit, coupled to huge interest rates. Nary a hint of protest. Just continued misrepresentations that such a position on my part & like minds, was akin to being against immigration in general, if not outright racism
But back to your point, enforcing current immigration law, which would include fines, if not incarcerated, to those who knowingly exploit illegal immigrants, would substantially decrease the amount of illegal immigration
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The characterization of nitpickery aside, it appears that you and I agree on the immigration issue.
Illegal immigrants will continue to cross the borders illegally and in large numbers until it becomes apparent that Americans will not be willing to employ them for any reason. American farmers, companies and individuals needing maids and yard workers must become unwilling to risk huge fines and/or jail time (I say make it both) in order to pay less for that labor.
Not knowing the particulars of work visas and permits and so forth, I can't say what the answer is but a simple work visa is simply a way for illegal immigrant to get in without risking death by snake bite, drowning or shotgun after which they will simply disappear knowing full well the government will not seek them out.
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The characterization of nitpickery aside, it appears that you and I agree on the immigration issue.
I bet the difference between you two is in one word in the sentence "Anyone that knowingly hires illegal immigrants," - knowingly.
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Who will own these robots?
==================================
Rich people, of course. because they will be quite expensive.
Basically rich people buy stuff for two reasons:
(a) stuff to impress others: Rolex watches, Malibu mansions, Lamborghinis. Jimmy Choo Shoes.
(b) stuff to make them richer.
Robots of this sort are of the second type. Basically. members of the same social class as people who once owned slaves.
Except owning robots is not going to be illegal.
Eventually, there will be pig and cattle-butchering robots and chicken-plucking and dismembering robots, and watching this huge machine murder, bleed and dismember dumb animals will be truly grisly to watch, so they won't put them on TV, until some clever guy videotapes it and sticks it on YouTube, and it will provoke a lot of controversy, which will die down like the photos of Abu Graib.
Eventually, we will continue to eat the robomurdered hogs, cows and chickens and will try hard to not think about it and will assuage our guilty consciounces with the though that we are not controlling these evildoing machines.
The hogs, cows and chickens will suffer for shorter periods of time, but this does not mean that we will see it this way.
Wait and see. You know that this will happen.
Farmers and farming contractors will be the owners , Tractors , combines , harvestors of all sorts are very expensive already this is an advantage that large farmers have over small farmers , already this has made the small farmer a vanishing breed because there is no way to match the mechanised effeciency of the big farm.
A small farmer will tend his orchards himself and hire a contractor to bring labor or robots , but his lower scale operation will never produce the capital required to mechanise his small farm to the better effeciency of the large farm.
I have some hope in that small farmers can make partnerships with each other and share the initial expense , but the Grange is weak and sick .
I have some hope in hydroponic cultivation being done on small scale for specialty crops.
I have some hope in herbs and rare plants which take a lot of attention.
I have some hope in organicly raised crops that can demand a premium price.
But I have a realistic assessment that the main part of our Nations farming effort will be done by large corporations that are connected with the land by their profit motive.