DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: R.R. on April 23, 2008, 12:21:30 PM
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXxkctYRAZQ[/youtube]
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(http://cagle.com/working/080416/walters.jpg)
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:D
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www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-oped0404wrightapr03,0,225570.story
chicagotribune.com
Factor military duty into criticism
By Lawrence Korb and Ian Moss
April 3, 2008
In 1961, a young African-American man, after hearing President John F. Kennedy's challenge to, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country," gave up his student deferment, left college in Virginia and voluntarily joined the Marines.
In 1963, this man, having completed his two years of service in the Marines, volunteered again to become a Navy corpsman. (They provide medical assistance to the Marines as well as to Navy personnel.)
The man did so well in corpsman school that he was the valedictorian and became a cardiopulmonary technician. Not surprisingly, he was assigned to the Navy's premier medical facility, Bethesda Naval Hospital, as a member of the commander in chief's medical team, and helped care for President Lyndon B. Johnson after his 1966 surgery. For his service on the team, which he left in 1967, the White House awarded him three letters of commendation.
What is even more remarkable is that this man entered the Marines and Navy not many years after the two branches began to become integrated.
While this young man was serving six years on active duty, Vice President Dick Cheney, who was born the same year as the Marine/sailor, received five deferments, four for being an undergraduate and graduate student and one for being a prospective father. Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, both five years younger than the African-American youth, used their student deferments to stay in college until 1968. Both then avoided going on active duty through family connections.
Who is the real patriot? The young man who interrupted his studies to serve his country for six years or our three political leaders who beat the system? Are the patriots the people who actually sacrifice something or those who merely talk about their love of the country?
After leaving the service of his country, the young African-American finished his final year of college, entered the seminary, was ordained as a minister, and eventually became pastor of a large church in one of America's biggest cities.
This man is Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the retiring pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ, who has been in the news for comments he made over the last three decades.
Since these comments became public we have heard criticisms, condemnations, denouncements and rejections of his comments and him.
We've seen on television, in a seemingly endless loop, sound bites of a select few of Rev. Wright's many sermons.
Some of the Wright's comments are inexcusable and inappropriate and should be condemned, but in calling him "unpatriotic," let us not forget that this is a man who gave up six of the most productive years of his life to serve his country.
How many of Wright's detractors, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly to name but a few, volunteered for service, and did so under the often tumultuous circumstances of a newly integrated armed forces and a society in the midst of a civil rights struggle? Not many.
While words do count, so do actions.
Let us not forget that, for whatever Rev. Wright may have said over the last 30 years, he has demonstrated his patriotism.
Lawrence Korb and Ian Moss are, respectively, Navy and Marine Corps veterans. They work at The Center For American Progress. Korb served as assistant secretary of Defense in the Reagan administration.
Copyright ? 2008, Chicago Tribune
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Those who harp on Jeremiah Wright's speech do not understand that Black Americans are not the "my country, right or wrong" patriots or imperialists that many White Americans are, because throughout US history, Black Americans have not enjoyed the bounty of being Americans that White Americans have.
Ford devised a way to sell millions of cars, Edison invented and marketed electric lightbulbs and dozens of other inventions, and both of them got very, very rich. Their families are STILL so rich they need not work at all. George Washington Carver certainly benefitted humanity a lot with his work with the peanut, but he never became rich like Ford, Edison, DuPont, Mellon, Carnegie, or the White success stories.
Wright sees the US not as a country that deserves to disappear, but one that should be ashamed of itself for its mistreatment of Black folks. Can anyone say that it has any reason to be proud of the KKK, restrictive covenents, Jim Crow laws, segregation, redlining and general second-class treatment of its minorities?
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Who is the real patriot?
didn't tim mcveigh serve his country?
well gosh I guess that settles it!
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"Those who harp on Jeremiah Wright's speech do not understand that Black Americans are not the "my country, right or wrong" patriots or imperialists that many White Americans are, because throughout US history, Black Americans have not enjoyed the bounty of being Americans that White Americans have"
EXACTLY.
And thats a big part of their problem.
Instead of moving on, they cant get over the past.
Bitching gets you no-where, but good grades will.
Some would rather stay in the pity party, dismiss their own inadequacies and "blame whitey".
Some make millions blaming whitey and build mansions in lily white gated communities and
then scream how terrible America is, yeah God Damn America from my mansion! ::)
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How many of Wright's detractors, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly to name but a few, volunteered for service...
If I remember correctly, Rush avoided service basically because of a boil on his butt.
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It would seem that Rev. Wright is a success story. I don't think he is whining or complaining about being a victiom. He is basically saying that America has not played fair with Black people even though it should have.
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There's nothing the left won't defend as long as it has a "D" after it.
Especially if it hates America.
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Put into what context should an American like a message of God damn you ?
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I imagine the dudes that had plagues visited upon them by God were asking the same thing.
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???
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I imagine the dudes that had plagues visited upon them by God were asking the same thing.
Unexpected agreement with the Westboro Baptist Church gang.
If Jeremiah Wright's ambition is to be a Jeremiah then he best not quit til we reach repentance or destruction.
If his message is the truth , he is wrong to us to stop upbraiding us .
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I don't want God to damn America.
I'm an American, I'm not a preacher, and I'm selfish. I don't want me and my countrymen to be damned.
But what would God say about a country who engages in torture, openly.
This, he should bless? He who gave his only Son, who was tortured to death?
I confess, it worries me.
Will God say, "S'O.K., the other guys were much worse." ?
We say God Bless America and we don't think we're asking God to actually bless our conduct? Well, maybe we are. Maybe words have meanings.
Or maybe we think God should bless us just because we are America.
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But what would God say about a country who engages in torture, openly.
Same thing he says to abortionists makeing a business of innocent blood.
We need Gods blessing to avoid Gods damnation.
If Reverend Wright is right there is no retirement for him , and no shutting down the warning machine to protect the canadacy of his favoriate politician or his own retirement income.
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We need Gods blessing to avoid Gods damnation.
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We do?
So, every country must be either damned or blessed? Is is not possible that God looks at Polandd and says, "well, they are sinners, but a lot of places are worse", and simply neither damns or blesses them?
I think that God agrees with ME on abortion. It's up to the woman all the way.
According to the Church, EVERYBODY is condemned by our desendency from Adam, who committed the Original Sin of unwise Culinary Choice and ate the forbidden fruit.
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We need Gods blessing to avoid Gods damnation.
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We do?
So, every country must be either damned or blessed? Is is not possible that God looks at Polandd and says, "well, they are sinners, but a lot of places are worse", and simply neither damns or blesses them?
I think that God agrees with ME on abortion. It's up to the woman all the way.
According to the Church, EVERYBODY is condemned by our desendency from Adam, who committed the Original Sin of unwise Culinary Choice and ate the forbidden fruit.
Congradulations on the half you got right.
National fate is less important than individual salvation , but it is still important .
I think God intervienes , but he is good at covering his tracks and loth to remove from us our right to fail.
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It seems to me that God is not actually interested in countries, assuming that there is a logical God. If the individualk and his choices are important, then the collective is unimportant.
The nation is not guilty of discrimination, lynchings and Jim Crow laws, but the individuals involved are.
Reverend Wright is a preacher. It is the nature of preachers to make big whoop-de-doos to call attention to their sermons. You can't base a sermon on most of the scripture, like the part where you must not wear fabric made of more than one fiber, or you should stone your disobedient kids to death.
The prophet Jeremiah was a lot weirder than Rev Wright, and he was ignored by most everyone in his time.
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For someone who completely admonishes and demeans religion and God, and those with a faith with God, Xo sure seems to know alot about what God thinks, would do, and what would and wound not interest him.
Go figure
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It seems to me that God is not actually interested in countries, assuming that there is a logical God. If the individualk and his choices are important, then the collective is unimportant.
The nation is not guilty of discrimination, lynchings and Jim Crow laws, but the individuals involved are.
No, there are several scriptures that show God takeing action on a National level, being interested in the behavior of leadership and even applying curses on a land or a city.
But Salvation is very individual , you have that right.
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to read a fuller version of the two Wright sermons, one from the first Sunday after 9/ll/, "The Day of Jerusalem's Fall" and the other delivered in April, 2003, entitled "Confusing God and Government."
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4718613&page=1
Asked about that speech, Wright replied, "He's a politician, I'm a pastor. I do what I do. He does what politicians do."
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/04/wright_breaks_s.html
"I don't talk to him about politics," Wright said. "And so he had a political event, he goes out as a politician and says what he has to say as a politician. I continue to be a pastor who speaks to the people of God about the things of God."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-wright-speaks_webapr25,1,410852.story
April 28th 2008
The Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., senior pastor of the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, will discuss the role of faith in the public square in a presentation entitled, The African American Religious Experience; Theology & Practice, at a National Press Club breakfast on April 28th.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/rev-dr-jeremiah-wright-jr-address-national-press-club_576758_1.html
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I surprised people are still talking about this.
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No, there are several scriptures that show God takeing action on a National level, being interested in the behavior of leadership and even applying curses on a land or a city.
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Not THIS nation.
The Bible is a hodgepodge of differing views and perspectives. You can find a justification for damned near any point of view in the Bible, especially if you squint when reading it.
The New Testament seems to be a lot less directed toward the tribal and more toward the individual.
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The Bible is a hodgepodge of differing views and perspectives. You can find a justification for damned near any point of view in the Bible, especially if you squint when reading it.
That is the importance of being fundamental , to seek what God is saying rather than seeking to find support for your own favoriate idea in scripture. That "squint" is a real problem , a hard one to avoid.
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The Bible, in addition to being based on the strange customs of a rather primitive tribe 2000+ years ago, also contradicts itself and offers advice that is just plain silly, such as the ban on wearing a fabric made from different fibers. I assume that the Ba'alites or some other tribe were fond of lindsy-woolsy or something like that, and the Hebrews were admonished not to support Ba'alite (or some other tribe's) weaving industry by purchasing such cloth. But it makes no sense today. Punishing your disobedient children by stoning them to death is certainly effective, but a tad harsh in anyone's book. In one place the Bible states that interest cannot be charged on money lended, in another it states that this is okay. In one place, the Bible states that a man may not marry his brother's widow, in another it suggests that he must.
A true fundamentalist would be driven mad by a real attempt to follow each adminition at once, and probably thrown in jail for child abuse, wife battering and numerous antisocial activities. The thing is that it is written in pretty turgid prose, so most people just don't understand what it indicates that they must do.
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>>For someone who completely admonishes and demeans religion and God, and those with a faith with God, Xo sure seems to know alot about what God thinks would do, and what woud and wound not interest him.<<
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
Genesis 3:1-3
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The Bible, in addition to being based on the strange customs of a rather primitive tribe 2000+ years ago, also contradicts itself and offers advice that is just plain silly, such as the ban on wearing a fabric made from different fibers. I assume that the Ba'alites or some other tribe were fond of lindsy-woolsy or something like that, and the Hebrews were admonished not to support Ba'alite (or some other tribe's) weaving industry by purchasing such cloth. But it makes no sense today. Punishing your disobedient children by stoning them to death is certainly effective, but a tad harsh in anyone's book. In one place the Bible states that interest cannot be charged on money lended, in another it states that this is okay. In one place, the Bible states that a man may not marry his brother's widow, in another it suggests that he must.
A true fundamentalist would be driven mad by a real attempt to follow each adminition at once, and probably thrown in jail for child abuse, wife battering and numerous antisocial activities. The thing is that it is written in pretty turgid prose, so most people just don't understand what it indicates that they must do.
All of this is a result of your squinting, I do not see these errors as errors because I look deeper and do not expect myself to understand everything.
Step one is to adopt an humble attitude and pray for enlightenment the scripture is locked against being understood by its adversarys , God opens understanding as a gift to those who ask for it.
Thus I know that the proabition of mixing fibers is one with the proabition against useing unfair measure in sales , Cloth being sold as wool should be wool and cloth being sold as linen should be linen. There are several commands and advisements that are clearly intended to discourage dishonest practices on the part of manufacturers and retailers this is one of those.
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352661,00.html
The entire sermon is finally availible.
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352661,00.html
The entire sermon is finally availible.
I just watched it , and I did agree with its basic theme , God does not lie , God does not fail.
Government will lie and government will fail the two should not be confused nor should there be one substituted for the other, Good sermon brother.
On the other hand every example he chose for government lies , failure and change was so politicly charged as to endanger the tax free status of his church.
He can be my brother in Christ and also be a died in the wool racist , this is just the way it is, I can't reject his claim to my brotherhood just because he isn't perfect.
Matter of fact , I miss MT pretty bad and this sermon seemed to reawaken the Jones for those quaint beliefs that MT would profess to us , I would welcome brother Wright into our forum , he is odbviously very qualified to be one of us.
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I miss Michael Tee too.
I heard Rev. Wright on Bill Moyers' show tonight and thought he was excellent.
Very soft-spoken, made a lot of sense.
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I miss Michael Tee too.
I heard Rev. Wright on Bill Moyers' show tonight and thought he was excellent.
Very soft-spoken, made a lot of sense.
You should watch the sermon , he does have problems.
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You should watch the sermon , he does have problems.
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And you should have watched the interview, in which he explained that "God Damn America" bit.
He is a preacher. One does not expect rational statements from a preacher. The basic tenets of Christianity are irrational. That is why they must be taken on faith alone.
I noted that in the interview Moyers did not seem to address Wright's allegations about AIDS, which were the most incorrect factual thing that he said. Or perhaps he did... he was so soft-spoken I may have dozed off a bit.
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You should watch the sermon , he does have problems.
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And you should have watched the interview, in which he explained that "God Damn America" bit.
He is a preacher. One does not expect rational statements from a preacher. The basic tenets of Christianity are irrational. That is why they must be taken on faith alone.
I noted that in the interview Moyers did not seem to address Wright's allegations about AIDS, which were the most incorrect factual thing that he said. Or perhaps he did... he was so soft-spoken I may have dozed off a bit.
He actually explained that he spoke to a diffrent audience as a preacher and Obama spoke as he must as a Politidciajn.
does one expect truth more from politicians than preachers? God forbid.
The main fallicy of the sermon was that the US government is a natural enemy of the black person, there is no reason to really think this. If it were true there would be no 13 ,14 or 15th admendment. The country is not run entirely by rich white people who are racists , this is a convienient untruth.
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You should watch the sermon , he does have problems.
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He is a preacher. One does not expect rational statements from a preacher. The basic tenets of Christianity are irrational. That is why they must be taken on faith alone.
He actually explained that he spoke to a diffrent audience as a preacher and Obama spoke as he must as a Politician. does one expect truth more from politicians than preachers? God forbid. The main fallicy of the sermon was that the US government is a natural enemy of the black person, there is no reason to really think this. If it were true there would be no 13 ,14 or 15th admendment. The country is not run entirely by rich white people who are racists , this is a convienient untruth.
BINGO !!
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The abolition of slavery does not mean that Black people run the country. That is an absurd statement.
Black people have many times less influence over the government than their percentage in the population.
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The abolition of slavery does not mean that Black people run the country. That is an absurd statement.
Who made such a statement?