DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Christians4LessGvt on May 30, 2008, 11:13:29 PM

Title: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 30, 2008, 11:13:29 PM
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00414/tcuk_400x82_normal_414585a.gif)

Scientists sign petition denying man-made global warming

More than 31,000 scientists have signed a petition denying that man is responsible for global warming.

By Graham Tibbetts
30/05/2008

The academics, including 9,000 with PhDs, claim that greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and methane are actually beneficial for the environment.

The petition was created in 1998 by an American physicist, the late Frederick Seitz, in response to the Kyoto Protocol a year earlier.

It urged the US government to reject the treaty and said: "The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind."

It added: "There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of ... greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the forseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth?s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments."

The petition was reissued last year by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, an independent research group, partly in response to Al Gore's film on climate change, An Inconvenient Truth.

Its president, Arthur Robinson, said: "If this many American scientists will sign this petition, you certainly can't continue to contend that there is a consensus on this subject."

One of the signatories, Frank Nuttall, a professor of medicine, said he believed the Earth was becoming warmer, despite his signature.

"This issue is whether the major reason for this is from human activities. I consider that inconclusive at the present time," he said.

A spokesman for the Royal Society, Britain?s national academy of science, said: "The world's leading climate experts at the Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change believe that it is greater than 90 per cent likely that human activity is responsible for most of the observed warming in recent decades. That is a pretty strong consensus."

"The science has come a long way since 1998 and it continues to point in one direction - the need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to avert dangerous climate change."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/2053842/Scientists-sign-petition-denying-man-made-global-warming.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/2053842/Scientists-sign-petition-denying-man-made-global-warming.html)




Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: Plane on May 30, 2008, 11:29:14 PM
I don't take this any more seriously than I did Al Gore.



9,000 with PhDs in what?

The truth is discovered by small teams more often than not , then diseminated to the wider audience . Not voted into being true .

I think that the Global warming scare is overblown , and this is an overblown reaction to it.

What would it take to have real research hunting up the real facts and compile them , analise them?
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: fatman on May 30, 2008, 11:34:42 PM
I've seen this study discussed on another board (a hiking board, of all things!) and Plane is dead on.  The PhD's are in everything from economics to education, and a lot of the other signataries are doctors, dentists, and retail managers.

My mind is isn't made up on global warming, one way or another, but this is hogwash.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 30, 2008, 11:40:32 PM
"The PhD's are in everything from economics to education,
and a lot of the other signataries are doctors, dentists, and retail managers"


i wonder if they are any less credible than a rich senator's kid that "took the initiative in creating the internet"?  ::)


Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: Plane on May 30, 2008, 11:44:05 PM
Being a political football is bad for the quality of this science.


Compare this with the study of fisheries , that is a disaster coming down the rails no joke , but it is not a political football so I don't feel as if it is being told to me just to manipulate my giving and voting.



BTW- thank you Fatman
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: fatman on May 31, 2008, 12:03:56 AM
i wonder if they are any less credible than a rich senator's kid that "took the initiative in creating the internet"? 

I see Al Gore as a mouthpiece or a spokesman for global warming, not necessarily a scientist.  If you have a petition of climatologists saying the same thing, I'll gladly read it with an open mind; like I said I'm on the fence with this issue.  It is a poor idea though, to bring a petition with people signing who have no intimate connection or knowledge of the issue to light to support your case.  I noticed that the article didn't make any mention of this, if I hadn't seen the petition discussed in another forum I wouldn't have known any better either, so it's not like I fault you for this.  This is crappy and misleading reporting at its finest.


Here's a link to the petition:  Anti Global Warming Petition (http://www.oism.org/pproject/)

If you ever get really bored and want to see the discussion that I referenced, here's the link to thread (beware!  This sucker is 66 pages long and I don't know what pages the discussion of the petition are on, but it's interesting reading if you have the time and inclination):  NWHikers.net (http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7962107)

Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 31, 2008, 12:52:41 AM
i am glad to see you are at least "on the fence" and i hope all the fools and reports
that blindly support the theory of so called "global warming" and to borrow your exact words
"have no intimate connection or knowledge of the issue"
are as easily dismissed and referred to as "crappy".
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: fatman on May 31, 2008, 01:00:58 AM
i am glad to see you are at least "on the fence" and i hope all the fools and reports
that blindly support the theory of so called "global warming" and to borrow your exact words
"have no intimate connection or knowledge of the issue"
are as easily dismissed and referred to as "crappy".

Let me put it this way:  if my dentist talks to me about global warming, I consider that to be his opinion, and while he may be a learned man, I don't think that his education has prepared him to analyze the data and the related issue.  If a meteorologist were to talk to me about tooth decay and gingivitis, the situation would be reversed.  I've seen studies that come out on one side or another, by legitimate scientists that have connections with the issue.  The interpretations tend to vary.  I do not accept someone offering their opinion as science, though a consensus of scientific opinion usually leads to fact, or if not fact then an accepted theorem.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Universe Prince on May 31, 2008, 06:04:15 AM
I wonder how many scientists and folks with PhDs we could get to sign onto a petition that the WTC towers just had to have been imploded by bombs. Obviously the actual science would disagree with them, but if there were a lot of them, that would mean they could be correct too, right?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not on Al Gore's side here. I see no reason for alarmism or vastly restrictive environmental regulations. I'm just getting a little tired of the whole game of trying to measure who is correct by how many scientists and degreed people agree with one opinion or the other. If the average temperature of the planet is over all going up, down or staying about the same, whatever the case is, it is true regardless of how many people agree or disagree that it is happening.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: kimba1 on June 01, 2008, 01:06:58 AM
as I said before
what does this mean?
can we stop recycling?
can we litter in the streets now?
is it ok to dump sewage in the oceans again?
doesn`t that petition mean it`s ok to polute again?

my question would be,why do we need a global event for us to keep our streets clean
I think it`s truely sad we need laws to stop us from peeing and other stuff in the streets.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Michael Tee on June 01, 2008, 01:31:22 AM
I just had dinner tonight with my wife, her cousin and his wife.  The cousin is an engineer and a semi-retired nuclear physicist with a Ph. D. in that subject, who has supervised the installation of Canadian nuclear reactors around the world as well as all over Canada, and as it turns out, he is one of the signatories to the petition.

Although he's a very intelligent and highly educated man, with a wealth of practical experience in nuclear engineering, I still felt that he was way out of his depth in pronouncing on global warming issues.  He did mention, however, that he felt the whole global-warming issue has its roots in politics, which he traces back to Margaret Thatcher and the British national coal-miners' strike of the mid-1980s, when (he says) Thatcher convened a meeting of scientists and demanded that they find a reason why burning coal was a very bad thing to be doing (this was in anticipation of a lengthy miners' strike, when people would have to be persuaded to cut back substantially on burning coal) and suggested that a new global warming theory might be the best vehicle for conveying this message.  According to our cousin, this was the genesis of the whole global-warming movement.

I don't know if any of that is true or not, but I thought it was an interesting comment, and I offer it for what it's worth.  Our cousin says he has a video that deals in detail with this Margaret Thatcher story, and that it (the video) is also on the net, but he didn't know anything about the IP address.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Plane on June 01, 2008, 01:39:30 AM
this Margaret Thatcher story,

http://www.john-daly.com/history.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258993,00.html


When Margaret Thatcher became UK Prime Minister in 1979, her mandate was to reduce Britain?s economic decline. Thatcher wanted to make the UK energy-independent through nuclear power ? she didn?t like her country?s reliance on coal, which politically empowered the coal miner unions, or oil, which empowered Middle Eastern states.

So Thatcher latched onto Bolin?s notion that man-made emissions of carbon dioxide warmed the planet in a harmful way, thereby providing the perfect political cover for advancing her nuclear power agenda without having to fight the miners or Arab oil states.



And the happy alarmist.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-541748/Were-doomed-40-years-global-catastrophe--theres-NOTHING-says-climate-change-expert.html


(http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_03/doomed2103_468x208.jpg)
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: kimba1 on June 01, 2008, 01:49:09 AM
doesn`t nuclear power cost more than petro based power??
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Michael Tee on June 01, 2008, 02:23:51 AM
<<doesn`t nuclear power cost more than petro based power??>>

I'm not sure, I think so.  What's your point?
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: kimba1 on June 01, 2008, 02:48:40 AM
just noticing
no matter what it`s gonna cost.
shame it`s not possible for people to make thier own power .
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Michael Tee on June 01, 2008, 02:57:36 AM
<<shame it`s not possible for people to make thier own power .>>

It was a pretty laborious process, kimba.  Sawing, splitting and stacking wood, digging peat, pushing capstans, hauling carts . . .

You wouldn't really want to go back.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: kimba1 on June 01, 2008, 08:22:42 AM
actually I did all that stuff
that`s one of the reasons I`m here wallowing in technology.
to me a hot shower is a true sign of advance technology
computers are just toys.
I really think our focus is off
why are we wasting our time making faster processors when we should be thinking of better ways to make affordable clean water and food.
I say this because every once in a while the news gets a out break of some food recall
how on earth are we not upset about this?

Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Amianthus on June 01, 2008, 08:27:19 AM
doesn`t nuclear power cost more than petro based power??

A bit more, but if the spent fuel rods are stored properly, it's only pollution is thermal pollution (it heats up the environment around the plant while it's running).
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Michael Tee on June 01, 2008, 08:51:44 AM
<<why are we wasting our time making faster processors when we should be thinking of better ways to make affordable clean water and food.>>

Those faster processors have enabled scientists to map the human genome.  This has already paid off by  enabling some scientists to identify the specific gene and the specific mutation on the gene that causes a particular type of tumor.  I am referring specifically to GISTS, gastro-intestinal stroma tumors, but there are or may be others as well, and eventually all of them will be so identified.  The genes and their mutations being identified, drugs can be custom-built to target only the tumor cells and kill them.  But it goes much further than that - - once the human genome is mapped, it can be redesigned.  Humans can now be designed and built with the ability to process dirty water or to get by on much less water, less food, in short adaptable to any environmental condition this planet can throw at them.

So I don't see any clash between the development of faster processors and the need for affordable clean water and food.  Map the bovine genome and you can grow beef by endlessly cloning the right muscle cells on trays, no need to waste precious farmland growing grain for them and no need to continue the cruelty of the slaughterhouses any more.  None of this possible without the faster processors, though.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 01, 2008, 09:04:48 AM


<shame it`s not possible for people to make thier own power .>>

==================================================
Suppose that some clever soul discovers a way to make solar power shingles that will supply all the power a house needs for perhaps less than double the price of standard shingles, and some other genius discovers a deep cycle battery that will store the energy indefinitely, in both house-sized and portable car-sized packages.

So now your house can be taken off the grid forever, and you can plug your car in and drive 300 miles between recharges.

How likely is it that the powers that be will NOT buy up this technology to prevent the irrelevance of nearly every service station and power plant in the nation?

How long would it take for this technology to become available to the average homeowner?

Will it EVER be possible?

Remember, we are talking about the sort of devious clowns that bought up the Red Car transit lines in Los Angeles and destroyed them to force the passengers into cars and those cars onto freeways.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: kimba1 on June 01, 2008, 09:12:46 AM
but doesn`t that make the meat cost more by the resources require to make the meat.
true we can do bothe make better computers and have safe foods.
but it`s doesn`t seem to be the case.
my town has the cleanest water around but soon it`s gonna be a mute point since the pipes are getting old.
it`s gonna get bad

.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Michael Tee on June 01, 2008, 09:27:31 AM
<<true we can do bothe make better computers and have safe foods.
but it`s doesn`t seem to be the case.>>

I think that's becasue there's still more research to be done in the genetic field before the benefits can be put into production and applied practically.

As far as the town pipes are concerned, obviously, that's a priority that has to be met ahead of faster processors.  I don't see a problem just raise a special levy on the real estate taxes or issue a municipal bond.  Doesn't the state help out with this?  Do they want more sick people raising the state costs associated with their illnesses?
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: fatman on June 01, 2008, 12:17:27 PM
I knew an old hippie who used a contraption made with car alternators in a creek to power his home.  I'm not positive how it works, I know that he did get busted and got a large fine (for harassing salmon via his contraption) for it though.

Definitely an interesting idea, I'm sure that there are ways out there if someone was determined enough, but I think that it's too much work or expense for most people to do, even if it is cheaper in the long run.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: Amianthus on June 01, 2008, 02:47:49 PM
I knew an old hippie who used a contraption made with car alternators in a creek to power his home.  I'm not positive how it works, I know that he did get busted and got a large fine (for harassing salmon via his contraption) for it though.

If you turn the shaft of an alternator, you will get AC current. The contraption need be nothing more than a water wheel of some sort. Probably geared up to get the required revolutions on the alternator shaft.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warmin
Post by: fatman on June 01, 2008, 03:24:24 PM
I knew an old hippie who used a contraption made with car alternators in a creek to power his home.  I'm not positive how it works, I know that he did get busted and got a large fine (for harassing salmon via his contraption) for it though.

If you turn the shaft of an alternator, you will get AC current. The contraption need be nothing more than a water wheel of some sort. Probably geared up to get the required revolutions on the alternator shaft.

It was a regular automobile alternator, that had paddles welded onto the pulley.  If I remember correctly, he had 6 or 7 of them running in a sequence.  I should also add that he used a wood cookstove and heated his bathwater, etc. on that, but he ran his lights, tv, refrigerator, and regular wall outlets off of the power generated from the creek.  I would imagine that if you had a large enough generator that you could run a range off of that as well.
Title: Re: 31,000 scientists sign petition denying man is responsible for global warming
Post by: fatman on June 01, 2008, 03:26:38 PM
A Global Warming Agnostic


By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, May 30, 2008; Page A13

I'm not a global warming believer. I'm not a global warming denier. I'm a global warming agnostic who believes instinctively that it can't be very good to pump lots of CO2into the atmosphere but is equally convinced that those who presume to know exactly where that leads are talking through their hats.

Predictions of catastrophe depend on models. Models depend on assumptions about complex planetary systems -- from ocean currents to cloud formation -- that no one fully understands. Which is why the models are inherently flawed and forever changing. The doomsday scenarios posit a cascade of events, each with a certain probability. The multiple improbability of their simultaneous occurrence renders all such predictions entirely speculative.

Yet on the basis of this speculation, environmental activists, attended by compliant scientists and opportunistic politicians, are advocating radical economic and social regulation. "The largest threat to freedom, democracy, the market economy and prosperity," warns Czech President Vaclav Klaus, "is no longer socialism. It is, instead, the ambitious, arrogant, unscrupulous ideology of environmentalism."

If you doubt the arrogance, you haven't seen that Newsweek cover story that declared the global warming debate over. Consider: If Newton's laws of motion could, after 200 years of unfailing experimental and experiential confirmation, be overthrown, it requires religious fervor to believe that global warming -- infinitely more untested, complex and speculative -- is a closed issue.


But declaring it closed has its rewards. It not only dismisses skeptics as the running dogs of reaction, i.e., of Exxon, Cheney and now Klaus. By fiat, it also hugely re-empowers the intellectual left.

For a century, an ambitious, arrogant, unscrupulous knowledge class -- social planners, scientists, intellectuals, experts and their left-wing political allies -- arrogated to themselves the right to rule either in the name of the oppressed working class (communism) or, in its more benign form, by virtue of their superior expertise in achieving the highest social progress by means of state planning (socialism).

Two decades ago, however, socialism and communism died rudely, then were buried forever by the empirical demonstration of the superiority of market capitalism everywhere from Thatcher's England to Deng's China, where just the partial abolition of socialism lifted more people out of poverty more rapidly than ever in human history.

Just as the ash heap of history beckoned, the intellectual left was handed the ultimate salvation: environmentalism. Now the experts will regulate your life not in the name of the proletariat or Fabian socialism but -- even better -- in the name of Earth itself.

Environmentalists are Gaia's priests, instructing us in her proper service and casting out those who refuse to genuflect. (See Newsweek above.) And having proclaimed the ultimate commandment -- carbon chastity -- they are preparing the supporting canonical legislation that will tell you how much you can travel, what kind of light you will read by, and at what temperature you may set your bedroom thermostat.

Only Monday, a British parliamentary committee proposed that every citizen be required to carry a carbon card that must be presented, under penalty of law, when buying gasoline, taking an airplane or using electricity. The card contains your yearly carbon ration to be drawn down with every purchase, every trip, every swipe.

There's no greater social power than the power to ration. And, other than rationing food, there is no greater instrument of social control than rationing energy, the currency of just about everything one does and uses in an advanced society.

So what does the global warming agnostic propose as an alternative? First, more research -- untainted and reliable -- to determine (a) whether the carbon footprint of man is or is not lost among the massive natural forces (from sunspot activity to ocean currents) that affect climate, and (b) if the human effect is indeed significant, whether the planetary climate system has the homeostatic mechanisms (like the feedback loops in the human body, for example) with which to compensate.

Second, reduce our carbon footprint in the interim by doing the doable, rather than the economically ruinous and socially destructive. The most obvious step is a major move to nuclear power, which to the atmosphere is the cleanest of the clean.

But your would-be masters have foreseen this contingency. The Church of the Environment promulgates secondary dogmas as well. One of these is a strict nuclear taboo.

Rather convenient, is it not? Take this major coal-substituting fix off the table, and we will be rationing all the more. Guess who does the rationing.

Krauthammer Column (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/29/AR2008052903266.html)