DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: fatman on June 05, 2008, 06:21:12 PM
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With the Mariners at the bottom of the AL, I have to wonder what the guys at the game were paying to see.
SEATTLE - Most of the time, a kiss is just a kiss in the stands at Seattle Mariners games. The crowd hardly even pays attention when fans smooch.
But then last week, a lesbian complained that an usher at Safeco Field asked her to stop kissing her date because it was making another fan uncomfortable.
The incident has exploded on local TV, on talk radio and in the blogosphere and has touched off a debate over public displays of affection in generally gay-friendly Seattle.
"Certain individuals have not yet caught up. Those people see a gay or lesbian couple and they stare or say something," said Josh Friedes of Equal Rights Washington. "This is one of the challenges of being gay. Everyday things can become sources of trauma."
As the Mariners played the Boston Red Sox on May 26, Sirbrina Guerrero and her date were approached in the third inning by an usher who told them their kissing was inappropriate, Guerrero said.
The usher, Guerrero said, told them he had received a complaint from a woman nearby who said that there were kids in the crowd of nearly 36,000 and that parents would have to explain why two women were kissing.
"I was really just shocked," Guerrero said. "Seattle is so gay-friendly. There was a couple like seven rows ahead making out. We were just showing affection."
On Thursday, after an internal investigation, the Mariners said in a news release that their seating staff had acted appropriately, and the couple was approached because of their behavior ? which included "making out" and "groping" in the stands ? and not their sexual orientation.
"We have a strict nondiscrimination policy at the Seattle Mariners and at Safeco Field, and when we do enforce the code of conduct it is based on behavior, not on the identity of those involved," Mariners spokeswoman Rebecca Hale said earlier this week.
In the release, the Mariners said the women were told they could continue to kiss, but that they had to "tone it down."
"The women refused to modify their behavior, began swearing at the seating hosts and complained that they were being singled out for their sexual orientation," the club said.
The code of conduct ? announced before each game ? specifically mentions public displays of affection that are "not appropriate in a public, family setting." Hale said those standards are based on what a "reasonable person" would find inappropriate.
Guerrero denied she and her date were groping each other, saying that along with eating garlic fries, they were giving each other brief kisses.
On Tuesday, Guerrero said a Mariners director of guest services had apologized to her. The team spokeswoman could not immediately confirm that.
After the story broke, the Mariners were blasted by the sex-advice columnist Dan Savage, who wrote about the incident on the blog of the Stranger, an alternative weekly paper.
"They go out of their way to say it's a quote-unquote family setting," Savage said. "As a gay season-ticket holder, we've never been quite sure what that means exactly. I constantly see people see making out. My son has noticed and asked, `Do they show the ballgame on women's foreheads?'"
Savage called for a "kiss-in" to protest against the Mariners.
Web sites have been swamped with blog postings for and against Guerrero and her date. And the story has people talking in Seattle.
"I would be uncomfortable" seeing public displays of affection between lesbians or gay men, said Jim Ridneour, a 54-year-old taxi driver. "I don't think it's right seeing women kissing in public. If I had my family there, I'd have to explain what's going on."
"It all depends on the degree," Mark Ackerman said as he waited for a hot dog outside Safeco Field before Wednesday's game. "Even for heterosexual couples."
Since the incident, Guerrero's job and her past have come under scrutiny. She works at a bar known for scantily clad women and was a contestant on the MTV reality show "A Shot at Love With Tila Tequila," in which women and men compete for the affection of a bisexual Internet celebrity.
"People are saying it's 15 more minutes for my career," Guerrero said of the ballpark furor, "but this is not making me look very good."
In 2007, an Oregon transit agency chief apologized after a lesbian teenager was kicked off a bus when a passenger complained about her kissing another girl.
Also in 2007, a gay rights group protested a Kansas City, Mo., restaurant they said ejected four women because two of them kissed, and a Texas state trooper was placed on probation in 2004 for telling two gay men who were kissing at the state Capitol that homosexual conduct was illegal in Texas.
"There's a double standard. That's the bottom line," said Pat Griffin, director of the It Takes a Team! Education Campaign, an initiative from the Women's Sports Foundation to eliminate homophobia in sports.
Lesbian kisses (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/ap_on_re_us/lesbian_kiss;_ylt=At3y_9L5BHI3zB14M7kQlQdvzwcF)
So here's my take on a couple of things from the article
"Certain individuals have not yet caught up. Those people see a gay or lesbian couple and they stare or say something,"
I know from personal experience that this is true. Then again, there are still people who stare when they see an interracial couple, or say things. You can't eliminate all the stupidity in the world, but when I've encountered it I just wave and smile.
"This is one of the challenges of being gay. Everyday things can become sources of trauma."
Horseshit. It's a source of drama, not trauma. If you're traumatized by a dirty look, then you really really need to get over yourself. There are lots of a$$holes in the world, how do you cope with that?
The usher, Guerrero said, told them he had received a complaint from a woman nearby who said that there were kids in the crowd of nearly 36,000 and that parents would have to explain why two women were kissing.
Do they bitch about having to tell their kids why two straight people are kissing, or this confined only to gay people?
On Thursday, after an internal investigation, the Mariners said in a news release that their seating staff had acted appropriately, and the couple was approached because of their behavior ? which included "making out" and "groping" in the stands ? and not their sexual orientation.
"We have a strict nondiscrimination policy at the Seattle Mariners and at Safeco Field, and when we do enforce the code of conduct it is based on behavior, not on the identity of those involved," Mariners spokeswoman Rebecca Hale said earlier this week.
So why did the guest services director apologize?
Savage called for a "kiss-in" to protest against the Mariners.
Hell yeah, I don't care for baseball, but I might make an exception in this case.
"I would be uncomfortable" seeing public displays of affection between lesbians or gay men, said Jim Ridneour, a 54-year-old taxi driver. "I don't think it's right seeing women kissing in public. If I had my family there, I'd have to explain what's going on."
Tough. Your right to comfort is secondary to someone else's right to kiss in public. I don't particularly care to see women breastfeeding in public, but I tolerate it because it's not my right to not be offended. And frankly, I don't care if it is "for the children", as Bill Clinton would say. You don't want your kids to see the real world? Then stay at home and watch the game on the tube.
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Is there a right to kiss in public?
How about copulating?
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I wonder about this.
Pick something that many people find disgusting but some others are willing to do , like eating caterpillars.
Could you ask that people not eat caterpillars in your business establishment?
If you can't , some people could really extort a restraunt.
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I would be there is a law against copulating but no laws against kissing.
Are mothers not allowed to kiss daughters?
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<<Is there a right to kiss in public?
<<How about copulating?>>
Exactly. The Yippie! (Youth International Party) platform favoured "fucking in the streets." Nobody's fault but yours that you supported the wrong party in 72.
And this goes beyond the "dirty looks" category. This was an action of a licencee holding a licence to host the general public in a privately-owned public facility where one has a right to expect equal treatment if one holds a paid-up ticket. If heteros can smooch in the stands, so can homos. I think a Kiss-In is a good idea, and following it up with a boycott if there's no meaningful response and apology is an even better one.
I don't know how many people really understand the slippery slope argument. As long as the slightest amount of official, government-sanctioned discrimination is possible, incremental increases in in inequitable treatment will inevitably follow until one step at a time the group discriminated against finds itself in the same position as the Jews of Germany. Racism, homophobia and bigotry have to be slapped down hard wherever they raise their ugly heads.
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There is a huge difference between rights and legality.
Public displays of affection (PDA) may be legal in some venues, but the question remains are they a right.
PDA's are illegal in India and South Africa.
Many US schools districts hold PDA's as grounds for suspension.
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Is this civil disobedience more likely to liberalise the kissing rule or make the ball park enforce the rule more strictly and try to eject any kissers?
Or if the ball game becomes a love in will attendance fall and profits fail?
They say "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out" in the future might it be said "too much balling at the ball game?"
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As long as the slightest amount of official, government-sanctioned discrimination is possible, incremental increases in in inequitable treatment will inevitably follow until one step at a time the group discriminated against finds itself in the same position as the Jews of Germany. Racism, homophobia and bigotry have to be slapped down hard wherever they raise their ugly heads.
I don't see this as an officially sanctioned government action.
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Is this civil disobedience more likely to liberalise the kissing rule or make the ball park enforce the rule more strictly and try to eject any kissers?
That is certainly a possibility.
Don't they have drive-ins in Seattle?
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Don't they have drive-ins in Seattle?
I think that there's one left.
All of this aside bt, I don't really think that the issue is one of legality, or even rights, but common sense. I did a poor job of bringing that up in the initial post and apologize for that. I can understand someone not wanting their kids to see a couple going at it, but I have a hard time with people sheltering their kids from kissing. I think the big issue here isnt kissing, but same sex kissing. Both of the people quoted in the article expressed concern that they would have to explain to their kids why two women were kissing. Maybe they should get stricter on all kissers at Safeco Field, at least it would be a level playing field (pun intended). Of course, that might also hurt their bottom line (which is certain to hurt after this season).
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<<I don't see this as an officially sanctioned government action.>>
I assumed the municipality gives them some kind of a licence to operate a facility which is open to the general public. I assume further that the licence-granting is a discretionary activity and that the licence would not be granted to an operator which discriminates against various classes of its ticket-holders depending on race, religion or sexual orientation. Now that have violated the civil rights of the one gay couple, I would expect the licence-issuer demand an apology be issued to the couple, some form of compensation be paid, and steps taken to the satisfaction of the issuer that steps have been taken to ensure that there are no further violations. The issuer could also undertake an escalating series of sanctions in the event that the operators (licence holders) should be insufficiently compliant, rising all the way to cancellation of their licence.
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Both of the people quoted in the article expressed concern that they would have to explain to their kids why two women were kissing.
Newspapers are known for searching out reactionary people for quotes in articles.
Should of quoted a guy who says he loves watching girls make out.
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I assumed the municipality gives them some kind of a license to operate a facility which is open to the general public.
Usually stadiums are run by stadium authorities which are quasi-private corporations like the federal reserve, FHA and FFA. As such they have wider berth in setting the conditions of admittance.
I don't know if Washington State has anti-discrimination laws specifically protecting gays, and that would certainly be a factor.
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Both of the people quoted in the article expressed concern that they would have to explain to their kids why two women were kissing.
Newspapers are known for searching out reactionary people for quotes in articles.
Should of quoted a guy who says he loves watching girls make out.
Ha, you do have a valid point there.
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I assumed the municipality gives them some kind of a license to operate a facility which is open to the general public.
Usually stadiums are run by stadium authorities which are quasi-private corporations like the federal reserve, FHA and FFA. As such they have wider berth in setting the conditions of admittance.
I don't know if Washington State has anti-discrimination laws specifically protecting gays, and that would certainly be a factor.
We do, passed with much opposition last year or the year before.
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We do, passed with much opposition last year or the year before.
Let me guess. Passed overwhelmingly in King County. Rest of the state was a draw.
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There is a huge difference between rights and legality.
Public displays of affection (PDA) may be legal in some venues, but the question remains are they a right.
PDA's are illegal in India and South Africa.
Many US schools districts hold PDA's as grounds for suspension.
Not really.
You worry about your PDA and let others worry about theirs.
We live in the US of A. Don't like it, move to India, commie.
Kids shouldn't be allowed to have PDA. SINNERS!
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We live in the US of A. Don't like it, move to India, commie.
Rights are universal. Laws aren't.
Kissing in public is therefore not a right.
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We do, passed with much opposition last year or the year before.
Let me guess. Passed overwhelmingly in King County. Rest of the state was a draw.
Actually, yes and no. It obviously carried large majorities with legislators (it was enacted in the legislature, not a citizens initiative) from King and Pierce counties, and majorities (although not supermajorities) in pretty much the rest of Western Washington. Eastern Washington opposed the measure IIRC, with the exception of the legislators whose districts included WSU in Pullman.
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<<Kissing in public is therefore not a right. >>
It might not be, but I think there's an equal accommodation right. The stadium enjoys some form of governmental approval in the form of a licence to operate, realty tax break, on-site sale of booze or God knows what. So freedom of expression issues are involved. It's also a form of interstate commerce, in that the site hosts visiting teams, the games may be broadcast regionally or nationally, etc. Equal accommodation rights would be involved if it's shown that heteros can make out where gays can't. Either ban it for everyone or make it OK for everyone. I think a boycott of the stadium, the team or the advertisers could be very effective. Personally I think it's GOOD for little kids to see two ladies kissing just like mum and dad because it teaches them about tolerance and diversity. It's an important life lesson.
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Then i would be in favor of banning it.
But then again, i don't stand up for the wave.
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Haven't seen the wave in quite some time. But then again, I've never seen anyone making out at a ball game either. We're a pretty sedate bunch up here.
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We're a pretty sedate bunch up here.
Last time I was in Toronto, there were women walking around topless everywhere.
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Just curious...
Why, when I click over to this thread, do I see an ad for 'gay chubby dating'?
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
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<<Last time I was in Toronto, there were women walking around topless everywhere.>>
Holy shit, I mean, uh, where in particular did you observe this interesting phenomenon?
Probably about twenty years ago, on a day when the temperature was hovering above the 90-degree mark, a 19-year-old female university student decided to go bare-chested, as did many of the boys in the park, and was arrested and charged. The courts found that women had the same rights as men to go bare-breasted in public - - point taken! - - but as far as I am aware, no other woman has ever availed herself of that right, including the student herself, who said later she was only trying to make a political point. And BTW, I don't even think that was in Toronto, I believe it was at a small university town in south-western Ontario, Guelph or Waterloo, IIRC.
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Holy shit, I mean, uh, where in particular did you observe this interesting phenomenon?
At the Renn Faire it seemed to be big (I think they shut that down a few years ago, though). Probably the most, ummm, memorable one was driving down 401 somewhere around Milton. There was a car stopped on the side of the road, guy was changing a tire. His wife / girlfriend / whatever was sitting on the guard rail wearing a pair of shorts. And nothing else.
I saw one or two in a park around there somewhere, too, just don't remember the details.
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I don't mind seeing two women kissing at all
Two men on the other hand ... yuk
(http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/uploads/madonna_britney_001.jpg)
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At the Renn Faire it seemed to be big (I think they shut that down a few years ago, though). Probably the most, ummm, memorable one was driving down 401 somewhere around Milton. There was a car stopped on the side of the road, guy was changing a tire. His wife / girlfriend / whatever was sitting on the guard rail wearing a pair of shorts. And nothing else.
I saw one or two in a park around there somewhere, too, just don't remember the details.
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Who woulda thunk? Hmm, it's 90 degrees today, as it happens. Thanks Ami.