DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BT on August 06, 2008, 11:55:49 PM
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Motorcade Map Found at House Of Bomb Suspect
By Dan Morse
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 6, 2008; A01
Police found a map of Camp David marked with a presidential motorcade route inside the Bethesda home of the teenager at the center of a bombmaking probe, along with a document that appears to describe how to kill someone at a distance of 200 meters, a Montgomery County prosecutor said yesterday at a court hearing.
Collin McKenzie-Gude, 18, also had two forms of fake identification: one portraying him as a Central Intelligence Agency employee, and the other in the name of a federal contractor purportedly protected by the Geneva Conventions, authorities said.
The investigation has expanded to include officials from the CIA, FBI and Secret Service, prosecutors said. McKenzie-Gude, who is in the Montgomery County jail, faces charges that include weapons violations, possession of explosives and attempted carjacking. At the house last week, police found more than 50 pounds of chemicals, assault-style weapons and armor-piercing bullets.
The allegations revealed yesterday were the latest development in an expanding investigation that has engulfed the family of three that lives on a leafy street that a neighbor calls the "Leave It to Beaver" community.
McKenzie-Gude was considered a fine student at St. John's College High, the private school in the District from which he recently graduated. He was scheduled to start classes this fall at American University's School of International Service.
His father, Joseph Gude, 62, a retired Air Force captain who works for the Treasury Department, also was charged in the case, accused of buying guns for his son. McKenzie-Gude's mother, Debra McKenzie-Gude, holds a master's degree in social work.
"Their whole world has been turned upside down," said Steven Kupferberg, the attorney for Collin McKenzie-Gude. "Collin is the apple of their eye."
A 17-year-old St. John's student was charged as a juvenile in connection with the case. The student was not identified because of his age.
Until recently, the student worked as an intern at a Montgomery County police district station, where authorities said he stole police letterhead stationery that was used to obtain items restricted to law enforcement personnel.
Investigators said they were trying to determine the intentions of McKenzie-Gude and the St. John's student. Attorneys for McKenzie-Gude, his father and the student said their clients did not intend to hurt anyone. Kupferberg said police have rushed to judgment against McKenzie-Gude.
"Collin has never been in trouble before," Kupferberg said in court yesterday, adding that McKenzie-Gude participated in ROTC and "was never considered to be a disciplinary problem in any sense."
Rene Sandler, an attorney for the teenage student, said his client was not connected with an attempted carjacking in which McKenzie-Gude was charged.
A former teacher of the two remembered them as "quiet, good-natured students."
"They were St. John's kids. Just good kids," said Matt Feldman, who now teaches at a different private school. "There was nothing dark about them at all."
At a bond hearing yesterday, McKenzie-Gude's image was broadcast from the Montgomery jail on a courtroom video monitor. McKenzie-Gude, 5-foot-5 and 153 pounds, stood straight with his hands clasped in front of him. His parents sat in the courtroom, with his father holding four large envelopes in his lap.
Peter Feeney, Montgomery assistant state's attorney, provided no details about the Camp David map or the document on a possible long-range killing. He called the latter "a clandestine operations document which appears to describe how to kill somebody at a distance of 200 meters."
Prosecutors said that when McKenzie-Gude learned last week that detectives wanted to search his house, he panicked and drove to White Flint Mall.
At a second-level parking garage outside Bloomingdale's, authorities said, he got out of his sport-utility vehicle and walked up to a 78-year-old man trying to lock his car. McKenzie-Gude demanded the keys, police said. When the man refused, McKenzie-Gude struck the man with his elbows, knocked him to the ground and repeatedly struck him to prevent the man from standing, the arrest affidavit stated.
McKenzie-Gude took the keys from the man but could not start the car and fled, police said.
"It's unconscionable, it's inexcusable, I don't know what you want to call it, to attack a 78-year-old," said District Court Judge J. Michael Conroy, who kept McKenzie-Gude in jail at a relatively high bond of $750,000. Conroy reduced the original bond by $250,000.
McKenzie-Gude was born Oct. 22, 1989, and grew up in a house on Rockhurst Road, north of the Capital Beltway, according to a motion filed by his lawyer to reduce the bond. He attended Woods Academy in Bethesda and St. John's College High, a Catholic private school with a strong military background. At St. John's, he joined the junior ROTC and was a rifle team member.
McKenzie-Gude's father had served in the Air Force during the Vietnam War, as did his grandfather, also named Joseph Gude, who served in the Army.
A source with direct knowledge of the investigation, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the case is ongoing, said investigators believe that McKenzie-Gude's father is a "straight shooter" who has faith in his son and was willing to buy him many things.
Roman Franklin, who was a year ahead of McKenzie-Gude at St. John's, said he remembers McKenzie-Gude as an eager student who sat in front of the U.S. government classroom, answered questions and added to the discussion. "He just seemed like an all-around good kid," said Franklin, now a student at Temple University.
At St. John's, authorities said McKenzie-Gude got to know the 17-year-old student, who was a year behind him. Sometime last year, the two tested pipebombs on three occasions in a Gaithersburg field, police said.
Ludmila S. Yevsukov, a relative of the younger student, said McKenzie-Gude made a sharp impression when she first met him -- he was confident and friendly and ended many sentences with "ma'am."
"It's like he was a little adult," Yevsukov said. "He is not a kid at all. He is completely full-formed."
In time, she said, McKenzie-Gude came to hold an outsize influence over the younger student, who she said was not as outgoing as the older boy. "He just became totally focused on Collin," Yevsukov said.
At McKenzie-Gude's home, police said they found a list of home addresses for St. John's teachers. "Some of those names were highlighted," Feeney said at the bond hearing.
Police also found "kind of a to-do list of items to be bought by October of 2008," Feeney said. The list included "equipment to convert semiautomatic rifles to fully automatic rifles," he said. The list also called for "range-finding glasses that typically are used by a sniper team."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/05/AR2008080502341_pf.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/05/AR2008080502341_pf.html)
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Wow. I can't imagine how many domestic acts of terrorism have been averted, simply because investigators risk compromising the ability of stopping future acts, if reported
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sounds like a great new client for the ACLU!
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/risparmia/Traders/107613.jpg)
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What a stupid world we live in when a kid with a map is considered a "domestic terrorist".
Sirs, you are just feeding the notion that every criminal deserves the full brunt of the military/administration's might.
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What a stupid world we live in when a kid with a map is considered a "domestic terrorist". Sirs, you are just feeding the notion that every criminal deserves the full brunt of the military/administration's might.
Hmmm, I must have missed the part where I called the kid a domestic terrorist.......lemme look again......nope, simply referenced how so many domestic terrorist acts have likely been averted. But, if an investigation concludes he was planning some act of terrorism, THEN we can properly apply such a label
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don't think all he had was a map.
Police found a map of Camp David marked with a presidential motorcade route inside the Bethesda home of the teenager at the center of a bombmaking probe, along with a document that appears to describe how to kill someone at a distance of 200 meters, a Montgomery County prosecutor said yesterday at a court hearing.
Collin McKenzie-Gude, 18, also had two forms of fake identification: one portraying him as a Central Intelligence Agency employee, and the other in the name of a federal contractor purportedly protected by the Geneva Conventions, authorities said.
The investigation has expanded to include officials from the CIA, FBI and Secret Service, prosecutors said. McKenzie-Gude, who is in the Montgomery County jail, faces charges that include weapons violations, possession of explosives and attempted carjacking. At the house last week, police found more than 50 pounds of chemicals, assault-style weapons and armor-piercing bullets.
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don't think all he had was a map.
Police found a map of Camp David marked with a presidential motorcade route inside the Bethesda home of the teenager at the center of a bombmaking probe, along with a document that appears to describe how to kill someone at a distance of 200 meters, a Montgomery County prosecutor said yesterday at a court hearing.
Collin McKenzie-Gude, 18, also had two forms of fake identification: one portraying him as a Central Intelligence Agency employee, and the other in the name of a federal contractor purportedly protected by the Geneva Conventions, authorities said.
The investigation has expanded to include officials from the CIA, FBI and Secret Service, prosecutors said. McKenzie-Gude, who is in the Montgomery County jail, faces charges that include weapons violations, possession of explosives and attempted carjacking. At the house last week, police found more than 50 pounds of chemicals, assault-style weapons and armor-piercing bullets.
All circumstantial evidence. Does not qualify as a "terrorist". Next you guys will be calling the guys that drag ATM's out of Circle K's "terrorists".
My understanding of the word didn't usually include people who had a list of possible weapons and information in their possession. It usually applied to people who had done something to terrorize people in order to influence a government.
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I never called him a terrorist.
However:
At St. John's, authorities said McKenzie-Gude got to know the 17-year-old student, who was a year behind him. Sometime last year, the two tested pipebombs on three occasions in a Gaithersburg field, police said.
doesn't sound circumstantial.
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I never called him a terrorist.
However:
At St. John's, authorities said McKenzie-Gude got to know the 17-year-old student, who was a year behind him. Sometime last year, the two tested pipebombs on three occasions in a Gaithersburg field, police said.
doesn't sound circumstantial.
Testing pipe bombs is sometimes referred to "blowing shit up" by "yutes." Would putting an M80 in someone's mailbox be considered "terrorism"?
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I never called him a terrorist.
I never did either. Strange how Brass keeps thinking so. Kinda how Tee sees racism in GOP ads that have not a shred racism in them
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I don't recall ever making pipebombs in my wayward youth
M80's i am familiar with. Are they still legal or did the nannies take them away?
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Are they still legal or did the nannies take them away?
You can still get them. I think it depends on state law. In Florida, it is illegal to set off exploding or aerial fireworks (you are basically limited to sparklers, legally), except as part of a licensed fireworks show. All you have to do to buy them, though, is sign a piece of paper stating they will only be used as part of a licensed fireworks show.
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I'll have to check it out next time i wander into bama. I believe their fireworks are the strongest of the 4 surrounding states.
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I never called him a terrorist.
I never did either. Strange how Brass keeps thinking so. Kinda how Tee sees racism in GOP ads that have not a shred racism in them
Really? That's strange because I would think responding like this:
Wow. I can't imagine how many domestic acts of terrorism have been averted, simply because investigators risk compromising the ability of stopping future acts, if reported
to an article about a kid who had some pieces of paper and may or may not have set off some "pipe bombs" would seem to imply that you thought he might be guilt of said "domestic acts of terrorism". Sorry if you seem to think that is some kind of superhuman leap of logic.
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Yep.....no reference to calling the kid a domestic terrorist. That was your leap, but thanks for the reminder Brass
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Yep.....no reference to calling the kid a domestic terrorist. That was your leap, but thanks for the reminder Brass
So, you are really going to go with the idea that there is no way in hell anyone would ever or could ever infer from your post that the kid who was the focus of the article that BT posted was, in some way, a "domestic terrorist"?
REALLY? SERIOUSLY? You're going with that stance?
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Sure, if they want to take a flying leap of illogic, when it was clarified NOT, in a follow-up
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Sure, if they want to take a flying leap of illogic, when it was clarified NOT, in a follow-up
So your comment was just some arbitrary statement that you simply posted in this thread for fun and unrelated to the article in no way? Why not start a new thread about domestic terrorists?
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Why should I? It was a perfect tangent to apply to this one. Feel free to disasgree
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It was a perfect tangent to apply to this one.
How so?
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An article about an investigation into the potential plotting of some attack to camp David and or the Presidential motorcade made me contemplate all the acts of Domestic terrorism that have likely been averted, but unable to be reported on, for the likely possibility of having those stealth methods of investigation, that averted such acts, uncovered
It was pretty clear the 1st go around. As was my reference that if the current investigation determines this bloke indeed was indeed plotting some terrorist-like action, THEN we can label him a domestic terrorist.
Up to speed yet?
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Plotting doesn't make you a "domestic terrorist".
This kid had no political agenda. Sounds more like he was some rich kid with too much time and money on his hands who fancied himself a CIA operative. That's not a terrorist.
This has been my point. Labelling anyone a terrorist is a dangerous thing. Because of how the laws since 9.11 (like Patriot Act) are structured, if someone is deemed a "terrorist" then the "president" has the right to hold them without charge indefinitely.
The Columbine Kids were not "terrorists", they were sociopaths with access to weaponry and the internets. That does not make you a terrorist.
Eric Robert Rudolph is a terrorist (and potentially CIA since he has three names! LOL). He had a political agenda.
If this kid was planning on killing the president, that makes him an assassin. If he was going to kill a bunch of people in a building in order to influence our government to get out of Iraq or invade Iran, that would make him a terrorist.
From what I read, he is only probably guilty of some kind of forgery.
Calling him a terrorist because he was or might have been planning on doing something is akin to pre-crime judgment a la Minority Report.
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Assassination of a political figure is by definition terror.
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to an article about a kid who had some pieces of paper and may or may not have set off some "pipe bombs" would seem to imply that you thought he might be guilt of said "domestic acts of terrorism".
Well, he had more than just some pieces of paper. Found items included: a map of Camp David marked with a presidential motorcade route, a document that appears to describe how to kill someone at a distance of 200 meters, two forms of fake identification: one portraying him as a Central Intelligence Agency employee, and the other in the name of a federal contractor purportedly protected by the Geneva Conventions, more than 50 pounds of chemicals, assault-style weapons and armor-piercing bullets.
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to an article about a kid who had some pieces of paper and may or may not have set off some "pipe bombs" would seem to imply that you thought he might be guilt of said "domestic acts of terrorism".
Well, he had more than just some pieces of paper. Found items included: a map of Camp David marked with a presidential motorcade route, a document that appears to describe how to kill someone at a distance of 200 meters, two forms of fake identification: one portraying him as a Central Intelligence Agency employee, and the other in the name of a federal contractor purportedly protected by the Geneva Conventions, more than 50 pounds of chemicals, assault-style weapons and armor-piercing bullets.
So what? Even all of that put together doesn't make him guilty of anything.
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Plotting doesn't make you a "domestic terrorist". This kid had no political agenda. Sounds more like he was some rich kid with too much time and money on his hands who fancied himself a CIA operative. That's not a terrorist.
I'll wait for the investigation to conclude, and if he was "plotting" some attack against the President and the U.S., he most certainly can be called a domestic terrorist. oy
The Columbine Kids were not "terrorists", they were sociopaths with access to weaponry and the internets.
Never said they were....nor were they plotting some attack on the U.S. or any of its government sources. Nor were they waging some not stop campaign of terrorizing the civilian population. That does not make you a terrorist.
If this kid was planning on killing the president, that makes him an assassin.
AND a domestic terrorist
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So what? Even all of that put together doesn't make him guilty of anything.
It's real good circumstantial evidence that he was planning on assassinating Bush. Which is against the law (planning it - you don't have to succeed to have broken the law.)
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How much watching do we need to put up with in order to catch lone wolves like Ted Kaczynski's or Timothy McVeigh?
Anyone know Ted or Tim's middle name?
unusual for assassins to have no middle name.