DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on September 09, 2008, 01:50:56 AM
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from today's Hufpo
<<Did Sarah Palin wrongfully push to have her ex-brother-in law fired? Was she really against the "Bridge to Nowhere?" Did she really sell Alaska's plane on eBay, or just list it on eBay? Did she actually have any substantial duties commanding the Alaska National Guard?
<<The correct answer to all these questions is: who cares? Which isn't to say these aren't valid questions, or that Palin and the McCain camp aren't playing it fast, loose, and coy with each of them. The point is that Palin, and the circus she's brought to town, are simply a bountiful collection of small lies deliberately designed to distract the country from one big truth: the havoc that George Bush and the Republican Party have wrought, and that John McCain is committed to continuing.
<<Every second of this campaign not spent talking about the Republican Party's record, and John McCain's role in that record, is a victory for John McCain.
<<Her critics like to say that Palin hasn't accomplished anything. I disagree: in the space of ten days she's succeeded in distracting the entire country from the horrific Bush record -- and McCain's complicity in it. My friends, that's accomplishment we can believe in.>>
There's more to the article, but it is kinda what I was talking about before (but not taking my own advice) - - this election has got to be re-focused on one thing and one thing only: THE SHEER AWFULNESS OF JOHN MCCAIN. I'd like to focus it on the fact that the guy is a war criminal, a bastard who came home, lied to and cheated on his wife, lied about being tortured (his own jailer says he WASN'T) AND lives in the past, boasting incessantly about his imaginary torture.
However the war criminal accusation won't go over big in fly-over country, so it's better to focus that on the counterculture or what's left of it.
He's a veteran Washington insider for decades, now posing as a "maverick" which is just plain ridiculous. He's 72-fucking-years-old. Hasn't had a fresh idea in years. Voted for Bush 90% of the time. Was there when Bush was fucking the country on every important issue.
Forget Palin. BUSH is the jugular and McCain is Bush. Go for the jugular.
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Forget Palin. BUSH is the jugular and McCain is Bush. Go for the jugular.
Can't forget Palin. You have driven home the idea that McCain won't finish out his term.
and guess what. Palin isn't Bush.
The dems made a fatal mistake attacking Palin's family like they did.
They made the election about her. And last i saw she was more popular than McCain, Obama and Biden.
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Palin isn't Juniorbush. She is even less experienced that Juniorbush in several ways. Besides, she's just the VP candidate. Unless McCain croaks, she is essentially irrelevant.
The same oligarchy that decided to foist the stubborn, incompetent, warmongering Juniorbush upon us has a chance to nominate McCain, but gave us Juniorbush instead, by funding his campaign.
Now they are desperate and will accept an older, more enfeebled McCain, packaging him as a "maverick", which he isn't.
This is just more manipulation of a people who will actually buy Palin or Obama "action figures". Beware.
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<<Can't forget Palin. You have driven home the idea that McCain won't finish out his term.>>
Sure you can forget Palin - - by concentrating on McCain, McCain, McCain. Nobody who doesn't want him as President will vote for him in the hopes that he'll die and leave it to The Barracuda.
<<and guess what. Palin isn't Bush.>>
No, she's even farther right than he is. Women get it.
<<The dems made a fatal mistake attacking Palin's family like they did.>>
No, she's a total failure as a mom and it reflects on how she'll run the country. The Dems' failure was in not pushing it to the limit, with ads from mothers of Down-syndrome kids talking about the enormous committment they have to make. I think the public just doesn't realize the magnitude of the commitment, partially because not all Down syndrome mothers make that commitment. But the message that the Dems left,"You can't mix family and career" was fatal. The message had to be more Down-syndrome-specific, and maybe it needed some preparatory public education, like mini-docs on the lives of the mothers of Down-syndrome kids.
<<They made the election about her. And last i saw she was more popular than McCain, Obama and Biden. >>
Well, they didn't make anything they can't unmake. All they gotta do is re-focus on the war criminal and phony "torture victim" himself. The backward-looking Bush clone. And if they don't go after him with both barrels blazing, then they deserve to lose. I am sick and tired of Democrats who don't know how to fight.
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Well, they didn't make anything they can't unmake. All they gotta do is re-focus on the war criminal and phony "torture victim" himself. The backward-looking Bush clone. And if they don't go after him with both barrels blazing, then they deserve to lose. I am sick and tired of Democrats who don't know how to fight.
I don't know if changing tactics midstream helps Obama. People still, at this late date, do not know who he is. Offering another side to his personality muddies the vision of him further.
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<<I don't know if changing tactics midstream helps Obama. People still, at this late date, do not know who he is. Offering another side to his personality muddies the vision of him further.>>
When you're on a losing horse, you get off it and pick another mount. You don't ride the loser all the way to the finish line. Muddy vision, clear vision etc. are side-bar considerations. He's gotta keep his eye on the prize and do what he's gotta do to get there in first place.
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When you're on a losing horse, you get off it and pick another mount.
I think it is a bit late for that. I also think that there are dems who may be wishing that Hillary did just a bit better in the primaries.
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I don't think that Palin is a "total failure" as a Mom. She's not John Wayne Gacy's mom, after all. She is not an unlikeable person. She is preferable to previous governors of Alaska as well. But she isn't particularly qualified to be president, and ideologically I disagree with her positions on abortion and abstinence as a sole method of birth control: the first because it is a violation of womens rights and the latter because, as we all know right now, it doesn't work.
McCain would be a mild to moderate improvement over Juniorbush. I'd rather have Palin as VP than Dick Cheney, but then again, who wouldn't?
Obama would be far more likely to improve what needs to be improved in this country, with regard to the Supreme Court appointments, health care, war, foreign affairs, especially how others see us abroad, and the economy.
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<<I think it is a bit late for that. I also think that there are dems who may be wishing that Hillary did just a bit better in the primaries.>>
So a week ago wasn't too late for McCain to turn things around with Palin, but this week is too late for Obama to turn things around by concentrating his fire on McCain? That's absurd.
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Obama has positioned himself as a news style politician, above the fray, on the high road.
If he goes on the attack, he shows his posturing to be a lie.
If he dispatches surrogate, he shows a lack of control of his organization.
He is in a difficult position.
His supporters know that. It shows up in his fundraising.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/09/america/09donate.php (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/09/america/09donate.php)
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<<I don't think that Palin is a "total failure" as a Mom.>>
"Total failure" was rhetorical. She sure as hell didn't do the greatest job with Bristol, who (judging by the schmuck she let father the kid) is still gonna need a lot of parental support, and of course running off to attend to the needs of the nation with a Down syndrome child at home isn't exactly what you'd expect from a devoted mother either. Sure the husband can pitch in and save the day, but usually it's teamwork from both parents that's required, not dumping it all on one man's shoulders. Especially with four other kids in the picture, one a pregnant teen.
The current Republican line is that the Democrats have "insulted all working mothers." Ridiculous when you consider that conscientious working mothers with Down syndrome kids at home usually pick self-employment or jobs with flexible hours, and none of them to date have tried to fill the responsibility of either a Presidential or even VP job while attending to their special-needs children.
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<<Obama has positioned himself as a news style politician, above the fray, on the high road.
<<If he goes on the attack, he shows his posturing to be a lie.>>
Agreed
<<If he dispatches surrogate, he shows a lack of control of his organization.>>
Ridiculous. Who controls the "obama's a muslim" surrogates? nobody even acknowledges their existence. On either side. (probably because they're Hillary's originally) Does anyone accuse Hillary or now McCain of failure to rein in the "He's a Muslim" surrogates?
<<He is in a difficult position. >>
He's running for President. You were expecting maybe a petal-strewn red carpet and a door being held open for him?
<<His supporters know that. It shows up in his fundraising.>>
That would be bad. Lemme check it out.
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The current Republican line is that the Democrats have "insulted all working mothers." Ridiculous when you consider that conscientious working mothers with Down syndrome kids at home usually pick self-employment or jobs with flexible hours, and none of them to date have tried to fill the responsibility of either a Presidential or even VP job while attending to their special-needs children.
I can agree with you on this. Unless McCain croaks (and I will admit, that is a possibility), her duties as VP will involve sitting in the Senate from time to time, cutting ribbons and attending funerals and events too unimportant to waste a presidents time on (like the inauguration of the president of Malaysia or the PM of Botswana).
I'd rather have her in Alaska, rooting out corruption and hectoring Big Oil. I am sure that her becoming a candidate for VP delighted many who feared what she might have done to them.
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<<http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/09/america/09donate.php>>
Doesn't really say much either way. Could be in trouble raising funds, or not. Miscalculations happen all the time. Maybe he's already drained the pool and doesn't know it. Maybe there's plenty more where the first batch came from.
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Doesn't really say much either way. Could be in trouble raising funds, or not. Miscalculations happen all the time. Maybe he's already drained the pool and doesn't know it. Maybe there's plenty more where the first batch came from.
If he has drained the pool, or confidence in his electability slips, the only chance he has is for the PACs to step up and fill the void. And that definitely goes against the credibility of him being an above the fray, new type of politician.
Might shatter the idealism of the young voter set he will most assuredly need to pull off a victory.
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<<Might shatter the idealism of the young voter set he will most assuredly need to pull off a victory.>>
Then he better keep them focused on the issues that brought them to him in the first place - - the war, the total neglect of the lives of ordinary Americans and the solicitude for the wealthiest 2 per cent.
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It is extremely hard for young people to follow someone who has let them down.
Even more mature people like you have your doubts.
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<<It is extremely hard for young people to follow someone who has let them down.>>
Two forces pushed them, enthusiasm for the charismatic Obama, and disgust and the status quo. Obama isn't a total let-down, he's still a very impressive guy (especially compared to McCain) and the disgust will still remain.
<<Even more mature people like you have your doubts.>>
Call them disappointments. I'd still vote for Obama without hesitation against McCain OR Palin.
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<<It is extremely hard for young people to follow someone who has let them down.>>
Two forces pushed them, enthusiasm for the charismatic Obama, and disgust and the status quo. Obama isn't a total let-down, he's still a very impressive guy (especially compared to McCain) and the disgust will still remain.
<<Even more mature people like you have your doubts.>>
Call them disappointments. I'd still vote for Obama without hesitation against McCain OR Palin.
It's a hold your nose vote anyway you look at it. And that is a far cry from where he started.
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Especially when you consider how folks like Tee are advocating that Obama say anything and everything, (which implies lying as necessar) to become elected, because McCain is so......evil apparently
And if he loses it's because America is still chalk full of ignorant racists, of course
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qUVQDmLf7s[/youtube]
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<<It's a hold your nose vote anyway you look at it. And that is a far cry from where he started. >>
It's a far cry from where he started, but it's still a long way from a hold-your-nose vote - - he's smart, McCain's dumb, he's new, McCain's old, he opposed the war, McCain supported it, he's mostly free of Washington lobbyists, McCain has at least seven in major staff appointments, his hands are clean, McCain is a war criminal . . . the contrasts on a point-by-point basis could probably fill a page, and on every one of them, Obama comes out on top.
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<<Especially when you consider how folks like Tee are advocating that Obama say anything and everything, (which implies lying as necessar) to become elected . . . >>
Nope. Did not advocate lying. But he can . . . soften his stand on some things and harden it on others, because after all McCain does not have a monopoly on the right to "change his mind" to advance his own position, so we should at least be fair-minded enough to allow Obama the same right.
<< . . . . because McCain is so......evil apparently>>
Congratulations, at least you got THAT right.
<<And if he loses it's because America is still chalk full of ignorant racists, of course>>
Yeah, sums it up pretty neatly, racism and ignorance in roughly equal doses, I'd venture to guess. I see Bill Maher was up on Toronto a few days ago and he said pretty much the same thing as you did, that the U.S. is a pretty ignorant country compared to Canada. I guess that's obvious to most sane and normal folk. Actually, they're pretty ignorant compared to most other developed countries and it shows pretty well in the quality of their political leaders.
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<<Especially when you consider how folks like Tee are advocating that Obama say anything and everything, (which implies lying as necessar) to become elected . . . >>
Nope. Did not advocate lying. But he can . . .
LOL.....which is different than what I said, how again?? I voted for the war before I voted against it??
<<And if he loses it's because America is still chalk full of ignorant racists, of course>>
Yeah, sums it up pretty neatly, racism and ignorance in roughly equal doses, I'd venture to guess.
Priceless :D Couldn't possibly be that as more americans learned of his hard core leftists positions, and the "change" those positions would take the country in, and lack of both conviction & experience helped sway their thought process. Naaaaaa, just a bunch or rednek ignurant rasists, hoo jist dont no beter.
Make sure Obama is woirking on those new ads targeting all the soccer moms who've been moving from the Obama camp to the McCain camp. Let them know just how stupid & racist they are. That'll go over big
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<<LOL.....which is different than what I said, how again?? I voted for the war before I voted against it??>>
The point is, it's no different that what McCain has been doing. If it's lying, then McCain is lying too. If it's not lying when McCain does it, then it's not lying when Obama does it.
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Problem is you can't find McCain lying about much of anything regarding Obama. Some distortions, yes. But Obama's the one who's been openly lying about Palin and the Bridge. But I support your call for Obama to lie more. that's what we want in a DC politician, running on a campaign of change.......LIE, and say whatever you need to say to get elected. I love it. I'd suggest FAX'ing Obama's camp immediately
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<<Problem is you can't find McCain lying about much of anything regarding Obama. >>
No, that's what his surrogates do.
<<Some distortions, yes. >>
Which of his lies are you willing to pass off as "distortions?"
<<But Obama's the one who's been openly lying about Palin and the Bridge. >>
Naaah. He tells the simple truth. First she was for it. But when a shitstorm of bad "Bridge to Nowhere" publicity burst, then she turned against it.
<<But I support your call for Obama to lie more. >>
But there is no such call to support. What's that? Oh, I get it - - you're even willing to "support" a call that was never made. Well, why not? How far is that from suporting an invasion to remove weapons that were never there?
<<that's what we want in a DC politician, running on a campaign of change.......LIE, and say whatever you need to say to get elected. >>
You must be confusing him with your hero, LIE, and say whatever you need to justify starting a war.
<<I love it. >>
So why am I not surprised?
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<<Problem is you can't find McCain lying about much of anything regarding Obama. >>
No, that's what his surrogates do.
Like WHO? Who is working on behalf of the McCain camp and lying about Obama at the behest of McCain? Or is this more of how well it's kept secret is proof garbage, yet again?
<<But I support your call for Obama to lie more. >>
But there is no such call to support. What's that? Oh, I get it - - you're even willing to "support" a call that was never made.
Ahh, that's why you said he could & should lie, because he shouldn't. LOL....talk about bizarro world again
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<<Like WHO? Who is working on behalf of the McCain camp and lying about Obama at the behest of McCain? Or is this more of how well it's kept secret is proof garbage, yet again?>>
The continuing smear campaign against Obama is documented here:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fightthesmearshome (http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fightthesmearshome)
Some of the authors of some of the smears are identified, others are not. At this point, there is only ONE man who benefits from smears of Obama, and that is his opponent, McCain.
Has McCain acknowledged authorship of even one of these smears? Of course not. He's not the author of any of them. Why would he have to be the author? Others freely and gladly do this work for him. He doesn't ask them and he doesn't pay them; he doesn't have to. They are his surrogates.
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And has McCain supported any efforts to lie or smear Obama? No. So, back to square 1, where you have this completely meritless claim of McCain surrogates going out lying about Obama, as if he's behind it all. Quite the contrary, he's been out front criticising any attempt to inappropriately smear or lie about Obama
But by all means, get Obama on top of his game...lie, smear, call every woman who doesn't support his agenda as a pig. It's going over great, so far
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<<And has McCain supported any efforts to lie or smear Obama? >>
Supported? What do you think, he's totally crazy? Why use surrogates at all if he's gonna come right out in public and support the lies and the smears.
<<So, back to square 1, where you have this completely meritless claim of McCain surrogates going out lying about Obama, as if he's behind it all. >>
Meritless, my ass. McCain is the ONLY possible benificiary of the lies and the slanders.
<<Quite the contrary, he's been out front criticising any attempt to inappropriately smear or lie about Obama>>
He almost never mentions it.
<<But by all means, get Obama on top of his game...lie, smear, call every woman who doesn't support his agenda as a pig. >>
Obama doesn't lie; hasn't smeared; hasn't called "every woman" or any woman who doesn't support his agenda a pig. None of that has ever happened and you can't produce one example of it.
<<It's going over great, so far>>
Oh, I see - - something that isn't even happening is "going over great." I guess I still haven't learned to speak proper Bizarro English yet. I'm still trying to figure out what that last comment meant.
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See?, the beauty of your asanine accusations....no proof needed. In fact, the absence of proof is the proof. McCain's behind the smears because he denies them. He's behind the lies because he criticizes them. All the while Obama's lies from his own mouth....well, that's just him doing what McCain does....which again is just the opposite
You a yoga master?
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<<See?, the beauty of your asanine accusations....no proof needed. In fact, the absence of proof is the proof. McCain's behind the smears because he denies them. He's behind the lies because he criticizes them. All the while Obama's lies from his own mouth....well, that's just him doing what McCain does....which again is just the opposite>>
Classic misrepresentation of what I say, but I'm used to it. How about this: McCain supporters encouraged by lack of real condemnation from the candidate himself are behind the smears. Because they are scum and McCain is scum, they know that he supports every scummy thing they support - - war and fascism, racism and militarism and above all else the maintenance of their class war position, siphoning more and more of the national wealth into their own pockets. They will do anything to advance their interests, best served by a lying dishonest weasel like McCain, ill-served by a guy who really wants to change things like Obama. Thus the campaign of lies and slander. For them, it's the only way.
McCain could do a lot more to counter the lies and slander spread about Obama to his own benefit. Instead he produces few and far between token denials and negation, just enough to enable guys like sirs to claim that he can't be behind the dirty tricks because he denounced them (absurd, but there it is) and goes on spreading the basic Big Lie of his own campaign, that he's a reformer, he's a maverick, he's gonna bring change. We'll see in November how many Americans are dumb enough to fall for it, racist enough to vote against their own best economic interests.
Sure McCain keeps his distance - - can't afford to be seen too close to the source.
<<You a yoga master?>>
No, just a guy who doesn't keep his own head stored up inside his own ass.
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So basically, you're bent out of shape that McCain hasn't been more foreceful in his criticisms. News Flash Tee, supporters of McCain that may lie about Obama are no different than the army of Obama supporters smearing & lying about McCain & Palin. But this wasn't about supporters. This was about supposed surrogates, acting at the behest of their boss. You have no examples of such, in fact it's quite the opposite. All the while Obama is lying about Palin, now calling her a pig, lying about McCain, but you give it the go ahead because he's supposedly following in McCain's footsteps, whereas you have yet to show McCain doing this supposed leading in the lying.
I bow to the Yoga master