DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: sirs on April 27, 2010, 08:11:30 PM
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MSNBC News Flash: Arizona Law 'Makes it a Crime to be Illegal Immigrant'
By: Kyle Drennen
April 26, 2010
During the Monday 12PM ET hour of live coverage on MSNBC, anchor Contessa Brewer described the "firestorm" over a newly passed immigration law in Arizona and fretted: "does this lead to a situation where neighbors are turning in neighbors or families turning against families?" Later in the segment, a headline on screen read: "Law Makes it a Crime to be Illegal Immigrant."
Brewer discussed the issue with Democratic Congresswoman Loretta Sanchez and wondered: "Is this an effective way to deal with the problem?" In response, Sanchez declared: "to stop people and say, 'I think you look like an illegal immigrant' and then drag them off to jail is not the way to deal with this issue."
Brewer followed up by quoting current Homeland Security Secretary and former Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano: "she would veto these kinds of bills because she said ? she thought it was important for police to be doing actual police work, that they are not immigration enforcement officers." As Brewer made that argument, the headline "Law Makes it a Crime to be Illegal Immigrant" flashed on screen.
Brewer later wondered about the political fallout: "It's forcing the President to address immigration policy. It's forcing Republicans and Democrats to wrangle with it. But what really is driving voters and emotion right now are jobs and the economy. Is this a bad issue politically at this time?" Sanchez replied: "I think this is a great issue politically at this time because, for the future in particular, the Hispanic community, which is a big immigrant community and which, of course, has some of the people who are with the least documents, correct documents, it is going to be the political force for the future in this country."
Here is a full transcript of the segment & article (http://www.mrc.org/biasalert/2010/20100426051339.aspx)
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actually arizona needs that law in order to keep those tents filled.
thier running out of people for tent city.
and alot of revenue is generated by it
remember they got celebrity deputies.
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Are they? If memory serves me right, anyone suspected of being in their state illegally, under the new law, is simply processed then handed over to ICE.
no?
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http://www.necn.com/04/25/10/Sheriff-Joe-Arpaio-supports-Arizonas-new/landing.html?blockID=222870&feedID=4215 (http://www.necn.com/04/25/10/Sheriff-Joe-Arpaio-supports-Arizonas-new/landing.html?blockID=222870&feedID=4215)
arpaio seems to think otherwise
but honestly my only question is how will this address the violent crimes that started this?
true the feds are asleep at the wheel,but asking traffic violators or jaywalker for items that americans don`t normally carry but criminals buy forged just don`t seem that effective.
and more likely the majority of illegals captured will not be the violents or dangerous ones.
if anything it may risk thier economy depending how much thier business is dependent on manuel labor
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I guess I give the Police officers in question a little more grasp of the events in front of them. they're not going to be pulling people over because their minority. They're going to be pulling them over for some infraction, as ususal. If during the "investigative" phase of the infraction, the officer deems the possibility that the fella is here illegally, he can then do (what's supposed to be the job of the Fed) by asking for ID to verify his legal standing.
Simple at that. Just a reminder, folks here illegally, have already broken the law. the illegal part kind of gives that away
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my question is how long does it take to prove citizenship?
does the officer trust whatever document provided ? if not than how long can the radio/computer check take?
if it takes over an hour than it`s still a problem,it`s kinda doubtful these american officers will factor this in.
if you think about it,legal immigrants would be less desirable to hire if they can`t show up to work on time.
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Considering a high majority of criminals and crime are illegal alien related, arresting them would be a way to preempt a lot of crime. So Miss Chavez I think it's a great new law and I hope it causes you Mexicans to fret over it and even go home. Get out of my country, you wore out your welcome a long long time ago.
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Considering a high majority of criminals and crime are illegal alien related,
How do you know that this is a true statement?
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Considering a high majority of criminals and crime are illegal alien related,
How do you know that this is a true statement?
I KNOW WELL Because I live in San Diego County, SoCal, and am very familiar with these sorts of facts.
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I KNOW WELL Because I live in San Diego County, SoCal, and am very familiar with these sorts of facts.
Feel free to post the relevant studies.
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I KNOW WELL Because I live in San Diego County, SoCal, and am very familiar with these sorts of facts.
Feel free to post the relevant studies.
feel free to look them up yourself.
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feel free to look them up yourself.
I'll just continue to assume your own assumption is wrong, and therefore all your conclusions that are derived from your incorrect assumption are incorrect as well.
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Yeah, i thought you were wrong...
Some polls show that as many as three-fourths of Americans believe that immigrants cause crime to rise. Crime by illegal immigrants in particular has stirred such unease that even liberal communities such as San Francisco and the Washington suburb of Montgomery County, Md., known for providing sanctuary to the undocumented, are now moving to turn in some felony suspects to immigration authorities.
But in all the furor, there is this hitch: The perception of high crime rates by illegal immigrants is pure myth. And it is misdirecting public policy about what we really should do to stop illegal immigration. A century of studies has consistently shown that recent immigrants are in fact less likely to commit a crime or be in jail than native Americans.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/01/co-the-illegal-immigrant-crime-myth/ (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/01/co-the-illegal-immigrant-crime-myth/)
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feel free to look them up yourself.
I'll just continue to assume your own assumption is wrong, and therefore all your conclusions that are derived from your incorrect assumption are incorrect as well.
I didn't assume I stated facts -- you assumed, and you know what that means. The facts could fill up a few phone books so f you want to learn then I suggest you spend about 1 hour Googling and you shall be enlightened. Try key word searches. Understand though that the last several years or so the press has been really good at leaving key details out. You know silly little facts like the hit & run driver was an illegal alien. The rapist or child molester was an illegal. The killer just happened to be an illegal alien. Gee it sure was a no-brainer why AZ did what they did. If Obama can't grasp why he has no business being president. Hell even John McCain broke the code and understood.
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I didn't assume I stated facts
Obviously not. You stated an incorrect assumption that you THOUGHT was a fact.
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my question is how long does it take to prove citizenship? does the officer trust whatever document provided ? if not than how long can the radio/computer check take? if it takes over an hour than it`s still a problem,it`s kinda doubtful these american officers will factor this in. if you think about it,legal immigrants would be less desirable to hire if they can`t show up to work on time.
I've thought about it, and I'm not sure what the problem here is Kimba. How hard is it for a legal citizen to have a Driver's License?? Especially if they're driving to work!! That's all the officer's looking for. People aren't going to be stopped for walking to work, unless they're making some pretty egregious & dangerous lane crossings. So, not sure why there'd be any problem of a legal immigrant showing any valid DL :-\
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I didn't assume I stated facts
Obviously not. You stated an incorrect assumption that you THOUGHT was a fact.
Not really, the fact is every illegal alien is a criminal. 100% of them are breaking the law each and every day they are here illegally. In the process of being here illegally they have children then stiff the hospital for payment. Many of these so-called Americans become gang members, which of course is criminal behavior. This needs to factor into crime statistics because had their law breaking parents not come here they would not be here to then become criminals like their parents. These criminals forge documents and steal peoples identities. They rob, rape and murder. They cheat and steal and don't pay taxes. They drive drunk and without legal licenses and hit, hurt and kill people whilst driving like people drive in 3rd world countries -- these are crimes. If all of a sudden these people left we would have to lay off police, Border Patrol, customs agent and many more. If these people were not here federal employment would have to drop significantly. You are clueless as to the devastation these people are causing border states. Sorry buddy but 100% of them are committing crimes and in my book illegals are the majority of criminals and thus the major cause of crime in this nation.
Let me tell ya something ---- most of their crimes are not recorded or reported.
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Translation: they cause more crime because Kramer just knows they do, and that's good enough for him so it should be good enough for you.
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If all of a sudden these people left we would have to lay off police, Border Patrol, customs agent and many more. If these people were not here federal employment would have to drop significantly.
Of course, we could achieve that, and probably to a greater extent, if we allowed the vast majority of them to legally and relatively easily come and go from the country.
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if it`s a drivers license then it`s not much of an issue, but if it`s a deeper check that takes along time then it`s another issue.
and any good/bad officer can make up a plausible excuse to check someones ID.
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If I am doing nothing in particular , does a patrollman have a right to demand that I identifymyself?
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Plane, I would say no. But the what the law says may depend on where you are doing nothing in particular.
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if it`s a drivers license then it`s not much of an issue, but if it`s a deeper check that takes along time then it`s another issue. and any good/bad officer can make up a plausible excuse to check someones ID.
Why would someone driving to work, not have their DL? Why would someone not driving be asked to show their ID? And sure, there's going to be a bad cop from time to time. That's not a problem with the law. That's a problem with that particular person who was hired
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Not really, the fact is every illegal alien is a criminal. 100% of them are breaking the law each and every day they are here illegally.
You're trying to turn it around. Your original claim was that the "high majority of criminals and crime are illegal alien related". Now you're claiming that all illegal aliens are criminals because they are here illegally. I can agree with the latter - that is a true statement. However, you have failed to show that the "majority of criminals and crime" are due to illegal aliens. The simple fact is that criminals who are here legally outnumber illegal aliens, so your initial claim cannot be true, unless you show that most home grown criminals are only criminals because of the actions of illegal aliens.
The balance of your screed was nothing more than bigoted assumptions, again based on no facts that have been presented.
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The only problem I see about lumping illegal immigrants who only broke the law by just being here with illegals who do violent crimes . is that it may lower chances of capture of the violent ones.
by the narrow focus
this may increase criminal activities.
this pretty much establish arizona as a reliable drug route by simply restricting the demographic of the drug mules.
the funny part is the violents ones are more likely able to not get caught by this new law with fake Id`s or illegally obtained duplicates
bribing low paying DMV clerks to get dups.
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Not really, the fact is every illegal alien is a criminal. 100% of them are breaking the law each and every day they are here illegally.
You're trying to turn it around. Your original claim was that the "high majority of criminals and crime are illegal alien related". Now you're claiming that all illegal aliens are criminals because they are here illegally. I can agree with the latter - that is a true statement. However, you have failed to show that the "majority of criminals and crime" are due to illegal aliens. The simple fact is that criminals who are here legally outnumber illegal aliens, so your initial claim cannot be true, unless you show that most home grown criminals are only criminals because of the actions of illegal aliens.
The balance of your screed was nothing more than bigoted assumptions, again based on no facts that have been presented.
Since the entire discussion is centered around the new law in AZ the focus of my comments were related to crime in AZ and other border states that have been overrun by illegals. Of course it doesn't apply to a state like Kansas, although I'm sure there are many US states & cities that one would not consider to have illegal immigration problems do. But I have no doubts that the majority of crimes committed in CA & Arizona are illegal alien related. You must like to argue for the sake or arguing but hey if you like to split hairs go for it.
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The only problem I see about lumping illegal immigrants who only broke the law by just being here with illegals who do violent crimes . is that it may lower chances of capture of the violent ones.
by the narrow focus
Good thing no one is doing that. Illegal immigrants are lumped into those who are here illegally. Not sure how that takes away from catching violent criminals, here illegally or not. In fact you can argue that any oficer, who after pulling someone over for some infraction, then determing they're here illegally, and turns them over to ICE for deportation, could potentially be removing a violent criminal, before they were caught doing another violent act
this may increase criminal activities.
I have no idea where you're coming up with these assumptions, Kimba. Clearly it could easily have the opposite effect as you describe. Removing illegal immigrants, who may also be violent criminals, not after they've committed said violent crime, but before hand.
this pretty much establish arizona as a reliable drug route by simply restricting the demographic of the drug mules.
Again, not sure what you're trying to claim. Cartels now going to be using swedes? 90year old females?? If they get pulled over for an infraction, and they can't demonstrate valid ID either, I'm guessing they'll be taken in as well
bribing low paying DMV clerks to get dups.
Which is different than what would be going on prior, how??
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i meant the focus will go to the easier to catch non-violents ones and not the more knowledgable in crime illegals.
and definately not 90 year old swedes, but easier to hire college girls who are U.S. citizens.
for some reason people still have blinders that these girl are used as drug mules. despite it been established fact.
20/20 even did a special on it
I think quite afew episodes of locked up abroad that college girls
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NO, again, the focus will be on catching criminals......period. You, and many others seem to think this new authority means law enforcement will just drop everything else they're doing, and go hunt for illegal immigrants.
NO
It simply means that when an officer pulls over someone, they have the authority to act on a suspician that the fella may be here illegally. Not that they didn't have the authority before, simply that they now have the support of the state when they do
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But I have no doubts that the majority of crimes committed in CA & Arizona are illegal alien related.
You may "have no doubts" but that doesn't mean that you have any actual facts to bolster your case.
"Despite our melting-pot roots, Americans have often been quick to blame the influx of immigrants for rising crime rates. But new research released Monday shows that immigrants in California are, in fact, far less likely than U.S.-born Californians are to commit crime. While people born abroad make up about 35% of California's adult population, they account for only about 17% of the adult prison population, the report by the Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) showed. Indeed, among men ages 18 to 40 - the demographic most likely to be imprisoned - those born in the U.S. were 10 times more likely than foreign-born men to be incarcerated."
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717575,00.html#ixzz0mPpVt9QW (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717575,00.html#ixzz0mPpVt9QW)
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hmm
ami bring up an interesting thought.
this is globally common not just in the U.S.
immigrant legal and illegal tend to be blamed for problems.
I`m just wondering will this bring more ill will toward illegal immigrants
sirs stated that law is fairly specific and shouldn`t be an issue but previous immigrant laws had unintended consequences like assualts.
at this very moment it publicly stated legal immigrants are different than illegal immigrants.
but will this opinion stay the same next year?
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Just curious, but who here is blaming legal immigrants....for anything??
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not now
next year
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Still doesn't answer the question now, does it
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some questions can`t be answered right away
it simply speculation
as I stated legal immigrants are thought of as separate right now , but later on is another matter.
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So, the criticism you have of this AZ law is it "might" have some negative effect on legal immigrants in the future. What, we don't know, based on nothing currently.
hmmmmmmmmm. Hard to refute something so vague. You ever think of getting into politics, Kimba? ;)
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But I have no doubts that the majority of crimes committed in CA & Arizona are illegal alien related.
You may "have no doubts" but that doesn't mean that you have any actual facts to bolster your case.
"Despite our melting-pot roots, Americans have often been quick to blame the influx of immigrants for rising crime rates. But new research released Monday shows that immigrants in California are, in fact, far less likely than U.S.-born Californians are to commit crime. While people born abroad make up about 35% of California's adult population, they account for only about 17% of the adult prison population, the report by the Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) showed. Indeed, among men ages 18 to 40 - the demographic most likely to be imprisoned - those born in the U.S. were 10 times more likely than foreign-born men to be incarcerated."
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717575,00.html#ixzz0mPpVt9QW (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717575,00.html#ixzz0mPpVt9QW)
"But new research released Monday shows that immigrants in California are, in fact, far less likely than U.S.-born Californians are to commit crime."
Your study is worthless because OUR discussion is about ILLEGAL Aliens not IMMIGRANTS.
Stop wasting my time -- do you suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder? - you seem to have a hard time staying on track.
Speaking of citizens as I previously mentioned many SO-CALLED citizens are ANCHOR babies. You might want to Google that. Illegals come here have babies and lots of those kids turn into criminals, as a result of illegal activity which again proves my point.
And Loretta Sanchez got voted into Congress via voter fraud, which is a crime. She beat Bob Dornan by about 2,000 votes yet it's speculated that about 4,000 illegal votes were cast in Orange County CA.
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"But new research released Monday shows that immigrants in California are, in fact, far less likely than U.S.-born Californians are to commit crime."
Your study is worthless because OUR discussion is about ILLEGAL Aliens not IMMIGRANTS.
Perhaps you should learn some reading comprehension. Illegal aliens are a subset of immigrants. So, if the total immigrant population is less likely to commit crime, a *portion* of the same population would commit even less crime than the total.
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Speaking of citizens as I previously mentioned many SO-CALLED citizens are ANCHOR babies.
They are, regardless, citizens of the US. This has always been true - if you're born within the US, you are automatically a citizen.
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Speaking of citizens as I previously mentioned many SO-CALLED citizens are ANCHOR babies.
They are, regardless, citizens of the US. This has always been true - if you're born within the US, you are automatically a citizen.
But yet again these anchor babies might be here legally but the fact is they would not be here if not for illegal activity, which again proves my point. And yes many of these 'Citizens' are committing crimes.
Actually (regarding automatically a citizen) if you would get off your ass and do a little research there a very good arguments as to why you are wrong on that. But again, I won't be doing your job for you. Clearly the reason we are so screwed up as a nation right now is the many people (like you) that are ignorant, or have misguided concepts regarding our laws and the Constitution. Yes indeed, we are paying a high price for poorly educating people. Naturally, just one more failure of government to add to the long list of shortcomings.
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The Supreme Court disagrees with you:
Supreme Court Justice Noah Haynes Swayne: "All persons born in the allegiance of the king are natural- born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country ... since as before the Revolution." United States v. Rhodes, 27 Fed. Cas. 785 (1866).
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The Supreme Court disagrees with you:
Supreme Court Justice Noah Haynes Swayne: "All persons born in the allegiance of the king are natural- born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country ... since as before the Revolution." United States v. Rhodes, 27 Fed. Cas. 785 (1866).
and where in the US Constitution is that written?
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and where in the US Constitution is that written?
Our laws are based on English Common Law, and if something is not specific to the Constitution, the Supreme Court will look to the founder's writings and prior English Common Law. Citizenship was not added to the Constitution until the 14th Amendment, and then it broadly agreed with English Common Law except that it also specified that race did not matter.
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and where in the US Constitution is that written?
Our laws are based on English Common Law, and if something is not specific to the Constitution, the Supreme Court will look to the founder's writings and prior English Common Law. Citizenship was not added to the Constitution until the 14th Amendment, and then it broadly agreed with English Common Law except that it also specified that race did not matter.
so now the Constitution matters to you?
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so now the Constitution matters to you?
It always has. Just because you interpret it in a way that is different from nearly everyone else does not mean that it has no meaning for those who read it correctly.
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so now the Constitution matters to you?
It always has. Just because you interpret it in a way that is different from nearly everyone else does not mean that it has no meaning for those who read it correctly.
http://www.14thamendment.us/ (http://www.14thamendment.us/)
By the way I never said it was unconstitutional if I did please show me where I said that!
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The Supreme Court, contemporary to the passage of the 14th Amendment, also disagrees with the people who developed that website.
If something is not defined in the US Constitution, nor in the US Code, then English Common Law holds supreme. Our immigration and citizenship laws are based on English Common Law, where birth matters (except for the children of diplomats). This legal principle predates the United States by centuries.
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hmmmmmmmmm. Hard to refute something so vague. You ever think of getting into politics, Kimba?
I did
i tried to run for board of supervisor in my district when my rep got caught in a bribe scandal.
but the every single issue I was gonna deal with got addresed
those bastards.
it`s a shame
132k a year temp job with a extra $100 for every off scheduled meeting you attend.
as you all know in politics you don`t need to solve things ,only attempt it.
only real downside is dealing with chris daly
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The Supreme Court, contemporary to the passage of the 14th Amendment, also disagrees with the people who developed that website.
If something is not defined in the US Constitution, nor in the US Code, then English Common Law holds supreme. Our immigration and citizenship laws are based on English Common Law, where birth matters (except for the children of diplomats). This legal principle predates the United States by centuries.
By the way I never said it was unconstitutional if I did please show me where I said that!
I merely said there is a difference of opinion regarding the constitutionality of anchor babies - but getting back on track...like I said before regarding citizen children (of illegals) being part of the equation (illegal alien crime) related to my original statement regarding why AZ put the law in place. I think we should move the debate back to where it began. And yes Loretta Sanchez got elected because of illegal aliens voting, which of course is against the law.
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I merely said there is a difference of opinion regarding the constitutionality of anchor babies
Not among the opinions that matter - those of the Supreme Court.
And yes Loretta Sanchez got elected because of illegal aliens voting, which of course is against the law.
You have any supporting data for that claim?