DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on June 07, 2010, 05:02:04 PM
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It is starting to remind me of bleating, as from a sheep. "Attack on Flotilla Violates International Law" This kind of headline and the article that goes with it appear everywhere. As does "World Outrage Mounts" and other garbage like it. I admit, I have been guilty of the same kind of bleating in the past.
Nobody gives a shit about international law any more. "Outrage" at maybe the first of the long string of Israeli atrocities might be an appropriate response, but when you get down to Israeli Atrocity No. 9,637, the "world outrage" is starting to wear a little thin. Nobody gives a shit about world outrage any more than they give a shit about international law.
Similarly, Obama and the other world leaders' quotes: "Obama Says Blockade Unsustainable," etc. WHO GIVES A FUCK? He will say whatever it is expedient for him to say. Won't change a God-damn thing. WHY are his fatuous remarks "news?"
I would like the left-wing press to ease up on their usual bullshit. No more articles telling us how ILLEGAL the blockade is. We KNOW it is illegal but that's totally irrelevant since nobody else seems to give a shit whether it's illegal or not. Same with the "Outrage" and the "Obama Denounces" shit.
What we want to hear is BDS movement news - - REAL news, stuff that deals with practical, realistic measures we can take. Where are the boycotts etc. taking place now, and how can we offer help to the boycott organizers? WHAT is being boycotted and how is the boycott message being spread? What are the most lucrative pressure points for a divestment campaign, Who's working on it now, and again, how can we help? Sanctions I'm not so sure about - - how to convince government to begin sanctions proceedings against Israel? (Frankly, in North America at least, I think sanctions are a lost cause.) But the "BD" part of BDS seems viable and practical. Where do we start?
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It is starting to remind me of bleating, as from a sheep. "Attack on Flotilla Violates International Law" This kind of headline and the article that goes with it appear everywhere. As does "World Outrage Mounts" and other garbage like it. I admit, I have been guilty of the same kind of bleating in the past.
Nobody gives a shit about international law any more. "Outrage" at maybe the first of the long string of Israeli atrocities might be an appropriate response, but when you get down to Israeli Atrocity No. 9,637, the "world outrage" is starting to wear a little thin. Nobody gives a shit about world outrage any more than they give a shit about international law.
Similarly, Obama and the other world leaders' quotes: "Obama Says Blockade Unsustainable," etc. WHO GIVES A FUCK? He will say whatever it is expedient for him to say. Won't change a God-damn thing. WHY are his fatuous remarks "news?"
I would like the left-wing press to ease up on their usual bullshit. No more articles telling us how ILLEGAL the blockade is. We KNOW it is illegal but that's totally irrelevant since nobody else seems to give a shit whether it's illegal or not. Same with the "Outrage" and the "Obama Denounces" shit.
What we want to hear is BDS movement news - - REAL news, stuff that deals with practical, realistic measures we can take. Where are the boycotts etc. taking place now, and how can we offer help to the boycott organizers? WHAT is being boycotted and how is the boycott message being spread? What are the most lucrative pressure points for a divestment campaign, Who's working on it now, and again, how can we help? Sanctions I'm not so sure about - - how to convince government to begin sanctions proceedings against Israel? (Frankly, in North America at least, I think sanctions are a lost cause.) But the "BD" part of BDS seems viable and practical. Where do we start?
Mikey, wake up an smell the coffee, you are nothing more or less than a pawn, or better stated, a useful idiot to the left-wing press.
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The left-wing press is unaware of what it needs to inform people about. Pointing out their deficiency does not make me their pawn. I think the American people are pawns of the special interests. But I also think that people like me CAN make a difference if there is some kind of left media cooperation and initiative.
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The left-wing press is unaware of what it needs to inform people about. Pointing out their deficiency does not make me their pawn. I think the American people are pawns of the special interests. But I also think that people like me CAN make a difference if there is some kind of left media cooperation and initiative.
a novel idea would be an informative media, one not left or right, one that informs, unbiased news.
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unbiased news.
not really sure that`s possible today
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The left-wing press is unaware of what it needs to inform people about. Pointing out their deficiency does not make me their pawn. I think the American people are pawns of the special interests. But I also think that people like me CAN make a difference if there is some kind of left media cooperation and initiative.
You see Tee's form of "media" is to be an indoctrination organization. It's not bad enough the overwhelming bias, that even he concdes is present. It needs to actually become a Left wing/Socialist Advocate, mechanism.
Someone might want to ask him if he favors Government tax $$$'s to bail out said media comglomerates, like the NYTimes, from going under
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But I also think that people like me CAN make a difference if there is some kind of left media cooperation and initiative.
Why is your making a difference conditional on the left wing media.
Make a difference.
Be an Army of One.
Do your own research, find the pressure points that work for you, then fucking do it.
Otherwise you are no different than a million other folks who talk a good game but rarely play an inning.
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<<Be an Army of One>>
An army of one is a pretty inefficient army. It can spend a lot of time re-inventing the wheel and it can spend time plowing a barren field when there's a more productive one over the next hill. People have put a lot of time into BDS, I'm not interested in tracing their footsteps but in joining them in the current battle or helping plan their next campaign.
<<a novel idea would be an informative media, one not left or right, one that informs, unbiased news.>>
I've already eliminated the North American MSM from my reading list. I figure truthout.org and antiwar.com and glenn greenwald tell the truth, but their fucking editorials are driving me nuts. "Waaaaaaah, that was ILLEGAL!!! Waaaahh, that was IMMORAL!!!" Gimme a fucking break, you don't need to tell ME it's illegal and immoral, I need to know WTF I can DO about it, now.
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I've already eliminated the North American MSM from my reading list. I figure truthout.org and antiwar.com and glenn greenwald tell the truth, ......
Are you eliminateing the potential for ever finding out that you are wrong about anything?
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<<Are you eliminateing the potential for ever finding out that you are wrong about anything?>>
Of course not. Why would you say that? I always admit when I'm wrong. It doesn't bother me. If I'm wrong, I appreciate anyone who straightens me out. From any part of the political spectrum. Always have, always will.
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<<Are you eliminateing the potential for ever finding out that you are wrong about anything?>>
Of course not. Why would you say that? I always admit when I'm wrong. It doesn't bother me. If I'm wrong, I appreciate anyone who straightens me out. From any part of the political spectrum. Always have, always will.
How do you examine the other POV?
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An army of one is a pretty inefficient army.
Tell that to Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, Lech Walesa or any other individual who took action on their own.
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<<Be an Army of One>>
An army of one is a pretty inefficient army. It can spend a lot of time re-inventing the wheel and it can spend time plowing a barren field when there's a more productive one over the next hill. People have put a lot of time into BDS, I'm not interested in tracing their footsteps but in joining them in the current battle or helping plan their next campaign.
<<a novel idea would be an informative media, one not left or right, one that informs, unbiased news.>>
I've already eliminated the North American MSM from my reading list. I figure truthout.org and antiwar.com and glenn greenwald tell the truth, but their fucking editorials are driving me nuts. "Waaaaaaah, that was ILLEGAL!!! Waaaahh, that was IMMORAL!!!" Gimme a fucking break, you don't need to tell ME it's illegal and immoral, I need to know WTF I can DO about it, now.
An army of idiots elected Obama. Had each one on them done their homework Hillary or McCain would be president and Obama would still be voting present in the Senate.
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An army of one is a pretty inefficient army.
Tell that to Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, Lech Walesa or any other individual who took action on their own.
Each of these was the frount or the organiser of a small organisation on the grow.
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It's far easier for folks like Tee to simply rant and rave from the upper bleachers. You see them at every sporting event, ususally in the upper Left Field Pavilion, cussing at every pitch made by the opposing player
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Each of these was the frount or the organiser of a small organisation on the grow.
Each of these acted on their convictions, if others followed their lead or aided their cause, so much the better.
The point i am making is that the responsibility to act lays with the individual, and if they sincerely believe a wrong is being done, they shouldn't wait around for someone to tell them what to do.
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<<Tell that to Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, Lech Walesa or any other individual who took action on their own.>>
Rosa Parks was a long-time secretary to E.D. Nixon, the head of the Montgomery chapter of the NAACP. They were originally preparing a defence for a 16-year-old black teenager arrested for challenging the Jim Crow policies of the local bus company when a decision was taken not to publicize her case because she was pregnant and unmarried, thus being a poor image for the black community to rally around. E.D. Nixon and Rosa Parks then decided that it would have to be Rosa herself who would challenge the bus company and become the focus of the black community's anti-segregation campaign.
Lech Walesa was an anti-Soviet agent who, I am convinced, was financed by the Vatican and/or the Western Powers to challenge Communist rule in Poland as part of a larger campaign to challenge it everywhere in the Warsaw Pact countries.
Neither one of them acted alone as an "Army of One." Quite the contrary, they had lined up a lot of support and knew where to find more once their cause reached critical mass.
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That's a shame that Rosa Parks was put up to it.
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<<That's a shame that Rosa Parks was put up to it.>>
She was a soldier in a war. Nobody "put her up to it." When the soldier ahead of her fell, she stepped in and carried on with the fight. More power to her.
You seem to have a real fear of collective action. If she pushes forward as part of a collective struggle, she's just a pawn in someone's game. If she proceeds entirely on her own, an "Army of One," she's a sacrificial lamb. You have to ask yourself which prospect is more agreeable to your ruling class, as an enemy of the status quo - - a successful collective struggle or a sacrificial lamb.
The myth is that every American is a rugged individualist, an Army of One. Your brainwashing was successful to the point that you hate and fear the very idea of collective action. It's GOTTA be bad. "Shame Rosa Parks was put up to it." Yeah right.
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The soldier in front of her didn't fall, she was pushed aside. And that's a shame.
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<<The soldier in front of her didn't fall, she was pushed aside. And that's a shame. >>
I couldn't agree with you more. It is a shame. I read a very detailed interview with her a few years ago, though. It was good to see that she was finally getting some recognition for her great courage, late as it was. It would have been a far bigger shame for her to have died without that recognition.
The Movement wasn't without its blemishes, its mistakes and its own injustices. It was human. I don't think it takes away from the courage of Rosa Parks. Maybe in some smaller way, it diminishes her; perhaps she could have been more tolerant, less accommodating to convention, but those conventions were her conventions too, and above all else, they were considering the moral force of the Movement in the eyes of the general public. Rightly or wrongly, they decided in what they considered the best interests of the Movement. Perhaps it was nothing more than an error in tactical judgment and more likely that was no error at all, given the mood of the times.
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Tell that to Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, Lech Walesa or any other individual who took action on their own.
NONE of these people acted independently.
Rosa Parks was selected, the day was selected, the bus was selected, the time was selected. It was all coordinated by the SCLC.
Harriet Tubman had a large number of Underground Railroad collaborators.
Lech Walesa was the leader of a large union. The RC Church was behind him.
All these people were courageous, but none of them acted alone.
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NONE was anything remotely resembling an "Army of One". The only effective Army of One I know of is Rambo, and he is fictional.
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What could do to end the situation in Gaza? What could anyone sitting at home do? I tend to think that sending money to Hamas would be a very bad idea.
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<<What could do to end the situation in Gaza? What could anyone sitting at home do? I tend to think that sending money to Hamas would be a very bad idea.>>
I am actively looking for a local BDS initiative to get behind. I think government action is a lost cause. Both in Canada and the U.S.A., the legislators are individually bought and paid for by Zio-Nazi activists. AIPAC is just the tip of the iceberg. There are individuals totally unconnected with AIPAC, doctors, lawyers, accountants and dentists, who put up as little as $20,000 to $30,000 jointly, (the total from three or four individuals) then meet with their Congressman or Senator every few months and hand him the envelope, all cash, no receipts requested, no strings attached except one: "We don't give a shit about any issue except Israel; vote any way you like on anything else, but cross Israel just one time, no matter what the excuse, and you'll never see another envelope from us. And this is in ADDITION to whatever AIPAC gives - - these guys don't even want to know the size of the AIPAC contribution. This goes on all over the US and together with the other AIPAC and officially reported contributions, explains how Israel really gets away with every fucking crime and atrocity. Shills like Krauthammer provide the cover for the legislators, if they should ever feel the need to explain the inexplicable.
BDS worked with South Africa and in theory it can work with Israel. Because of their (the Zio-Nazis') stranglehold on the MSM, it's hard to rally the public to BDS, but I think it can work with students, trade union membership, church and synagogue groups, and various bodies organized around help for the underdog, etc. I think the problem is to find the group with the biggest chance of success and work your ass off for them. And to follow each recruiting success with another recruitment drive aimed again at a new target, preferably out of the sphere of influence of the existing BDS recruits, which can be encouraged to continue your original recruiting efforts in their own industry, field of business or academia, etc. Because of powerful Zio-Nazi influence in the MSM and the government, it's a big uphill struggle, but it's the only struggle I'm aware of (apart from the armed struggle) that looks even remotely promising.
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This is very illegal. You have any evidence that it's happened?
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Do you suppose it could be even _more_ effective than the armed struggle?
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This is very illegal. You have any evidence that it's happened?
We should expect the SOP, that lack of evidence is proof positive, because they're just that nefariously evil
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What does BDS stand for?
Do you propose an anti-Israeli BDS?
I am not clear about what you mean here.
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BDS = Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions
Boycott all products of Israel - - two large Italian supermarket chains just removed Israeli products from their shelves last week, for example. Boycott Israel culturally - - don't show their films, don't host their artists, don't invite them to academic conferences. The other side of the coin - - if you are an artist, boycott them from your performances. Also last week, Elvis Costello canceled a previously scheduled concert in Tel Aviv.
Divestment - don't hold Israeli securities. If you own shares in Israeli companies, dump them. If you own real estate in Israel, dump it. Typically, university and hospital trust funds hold wide investment portfolios. Find out what's in the investment portfolio of your local university, or even companies whose shares are traded on the stock exchange. If, for example, you find that a U.S. oil company holds shares in one or more Israeli energy companies, or that your local university owns shares in Israeli high-tech companies, urge the oil company or the university to DIVEST - - to sell the shares in the Israeli companies and buy other non-Israeli shares for the portfolio. Be a pain in the ass - - write open letters, publish ads signed by local notables, attend shareholders' meetings or public meetings of the university. Ideally, make it unthinkable for any new Israeli company to issue its IPO in America.
Sanctions - call for sanctions (trade sanctions) by your federal, state or even local government on Israel. Increase public pressure for government sanctions. This is marginal in North America only because the MSM and the government are firmly in the pocket of the special interests and you can bet yer ass that no government sanctions will ever be declared here on Israel, unless there is first a sea-change in the way politics is conducted here.
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Good luck with that
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boycotts are tricky since it totally depends on the situation for it`s effectiveness.
ex. disney got boycotted and nobody noticed. exxon got boycotted and private owners got one hurt by it.
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<<boycotts are tricky since it totally depends on the situation for it`s effectiveness.
<<ex. disney got boycotted and nobody noticed. exxon got boycotted and private owners got one hurt by it.>>
I agree it's tricky. I think it will be more effective in Europe than in North America and in certain European countries more than others. The general public has to be educated as to the situation in the West Bank and Gaza and the ongoing ethnic cleansing there, the ever-growing settlements and continuing dispossession of the native Palestinians to accommodate them, the destruction of homes, crops, orchards, and ultimately (as we've seen in the Gaza invasion of two years ago, the blockade, and the brutal attack on the blockade runners) of human life itself. There has to be a will to act, there has to be a belief that the action can be effective (as it was in South Africa) and there has to be the generation of a corps of leaders who will keep those fires burning. I think practically speaking those leaders will have to come from the young Arab Muslim populations of the major European cities.
It's a huge challenge, no doubt about it, but it's the only alternative (short of the armed struggle itself) to the ongoing occupation of the West Bank (now in its 4th decade) and the continuing arrests, imprisonment, torture and murder of all Palestinians who resist the ethnic cleansing and the theft of their lands.