DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Christians4LessGvt on July 16, 2010, 03:42:30 PM
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Geert Wilders Warning to America Part 1 of 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQOCcx5V9RI#ws)
Geert Wilders Warning to America Part 2 of 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdX1qpCtlh8&feature=related#ws)
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It might be the Muslims who say that the Jews are apes and pigs, but it was Christian Europeans who murdered six million of us in gas chambers and crematoria, not back in the time of Mohammed, but during my own lifetime.
Islam doesn't have a Pope or any other leader who claims to be infallible, so it's kind of hard to see why they are being labeled as "totalitarian" when there is at least one major Christian denomination that seems to fill the bill much better.
If Europeans are going to point their fingers at others, at least they should ensure that their own hands are clean first. Those videos are offensive and, yes, racist. Whoever made them should get a life instead of devoting himself to whipping up irrational hatred against people who just want to make the world a better place, only their way instead of your way. Whoever produced this anti-Muslim hate propaganda is nothing but a 21st century version of Julius Streicher. Tell Geert Wilders from me to blow it out his ass.
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It might be the Muslims who say that the Jews are apes and pigs, but it was
Christian Europeans who murdered six million of us in gas chambers and crematoria,
not back in the time of Mohammed, but during my own lifetime.
The Muslims doing the killing today are quoting the Koran.
They proudly announce they are carrying out Islamic doctrine
Hitler was just the opposite, Hitler detested Christianity.
Here are some Hitler quotes.
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7) "
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339) "
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)"
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52) "
It was totalitarianism that murdered six million Jews
(BTW your buddy in Iran says the gas chambers never happened)
"Islam doesn't have a Pope or any other leader who claims to be infallible,
so it's kind of hard to see why they are being labeled as "totalitarian"
when there is at least one major Christian denomination that seems to
fill the bill much better"
The only problem with that kooky theory is there are no
current Christian violent groups threatening world peace
with a world-wide "jihad" murdering innocent civilians
on a daily basis in the name of their religion or whose
motivatation is their religion.
Those videos are offensive and, yes, racist.
Oh is Islam a race now too?....
First reaction when no logical answer is available is to scream "racism"....LOL
"Starship Enterprise we have a problem...our bullshit response doesnt work because Islam is not a race"
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It might be the Muslims who say that the Jews are apes and pigs, but it was Christian Europeans who murdered six million of us in gas chambers and crematoria, not back in the time of Mohammed, but during my own lifetime.
News flash.......those that pushed and performed such evil, be it in the name of Naziism or Communism, weren't CHRISTIAN
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<<Hitler was just the opposite, Hitler detested Christianity.
<<Here are some Hitler quotes.>>
Thanks, I've seen them all.
I appreciate that some research was required to produce these quotes and I don't want to seem disrespectful of it, but let's get real.
Hitler himself did not murder a single Jew. He gave the orders and others carried them out. It is all those millions of others who were in fact Christians and nothing else but Christians that I was referring to when I spoke of the Holocaust.
Whatever the religious beliefs of Hitler (and there are quotes in which Hitler pays at least lip service to Christianity) he needed millions of helpers who actually carried out the policy, dug the pits in the forest, machine-gunned the victims in the pits, built and operated the gas chambers and the concentration camps and the crematoria, ran the torture chambers and the "medical experiments," organized the mass transport and the round-ups, wrote the hate propaganda etc. etc. These millions of helpers were ordinary German and non-German Christians, baptized, married and buried with Christian ceremonies and in every sense of the word practising Christians.
To deny the Christianity of those who exterminated the Jews on the basis of Hitler's anti-Christian quotations is pure bullshit. All the Hitler quotes in the world will not hide the fact that the people who actually carried out the Holocaust were European Christians, cheered on and abetted by white American Christians in prominent places, such as Charles A. Lindbergh, Anne Morrow Lindbergh and Henry Ford.
It's incredible that Christians in general and Geert Wilders in particular can have the God-damn balls to whine about the "apes and pigs" crap from the Muslims and totally deny their own religion's involvement in the Holocaust. In-fucking-credible. And just as bad is the stuff I read right here in this group, who try to whitewash the whole thing: "Nope. No Christians involved. Read the Hitler quotes. Wasn't us." Bullshit. EVERYBODY knows who it was. Every God-damn one of them was a Christian, except maybe Hitler himself and a handful of Nazi fanatics around him. You can bet your ass that the guy who pulled the lever in the gas chamber was baptized a Christian, married in a church, baptized his kids in the same fucking church and was buried in a Christian cemetery. Pretend whatever you want to pretend, that is the truth.
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I can wear a police uniform, even carry a gun....doesn't make me a police officer. Someone who may say they are Christian, or in this case, claim someone(s) are Christian, but acting in obvious non-Chritisan evil, is NOT a "practicing Christian", in any way, shape or form. No form of twisted rationalizations can get around that point. The tact here then appears to be trying to bash Christianity specifically, and religion in general, merely for the sake of bashing
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Done While being a Christian or Done Because they were Christian?
Who admires Corrie Ten Boom?
http://www.corrietenboom.com/ (http://www.corrietenboom.com/)
Christians wern't active enough to prevent the horror from happening ,but would more christians being more Christian have made the situation worse or better?
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I don't need to look up any link to know who Corrie ten Boom was, and of course I admire her. You must have missed my point completely. There were many good Christians who fought the Nazis with everything they had, even German Christians, and paid with their lives for it. Just as there are Muslims who are opposed to the Islamic fanatics and paid with their lives too.
My point was that everybody (or say 99%) of the people who took part in executing the Holocaust were born Christians, raised in Christian homes and buried in Christian cemeteries. They were inspired by centuries of anti-Semitic preaching from the pulpits of RC churches or by Martin Luther's book, The Jews and Their Lies, an anti-Semitic screed which inspired generations of fanatical anti-Semites. The God-damned fucking Pope said a special Mass to pray for the success of Hitler's invasion of the U.S.S.R. and most of the Nazi war criminals who escaped to Latin America and other places at the end of the War, did so with the assistance of the Vatican, as outlined in detail in books such as Ratlines and others.
It is absurd to argue that because Hitler wasn't a Christian, none of the millions of Germans who made the Holocaust happen were Christians. Hitler and a small coterie of fanatics around him probably weren't Christians. The quotes that CU4 found were basically variations of the Nietzchean themes developed in the Genealogy of Morals, in which Nietzsche argues that Christianity is basically a twisted but highly successful Jewish plot to undermine the Germanic races, and represents in essence the triumph of the weak, the sick and the ugly (the Jews) over the strong, the healthy and the beautiful (the Aryans.) Genealogy of Morals is a great book, BTW, and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in post-Darwinian philosophy. Nietzsche probably wouldn't have done too well under the Nazis, IMHO, because he believed that present-day Germans were a mongrelized, degenerate breed, corrupted by the "blood" of "inferior races" and/or untermenschen (subhumans) introduced into their bloodstream as a direct result of the successful Jewish plot (Christianity.)
Hitler was also a vegetarian. This does not mean that all Holocaust workers or even the Nazi fanatics in his inner circle were also vegetarians. His religious beliefs did not have any appreciable effect on Christianity in Germany. Throughout the entire Nazi period, 1933 to 1945, the churches were as full as ever, and I would suspect that during the war, with wartime births, funderals and weddings, maybe even a little fuller. There was little if any attempt by the Nazis to stop the ordinary German people from attending the church or synagogue of their choice.
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<<Christians wern't active enough to prevent the horror from happening ,but would more christians being more Christian have made the situation worse or better?>>
Obviously more Christianity put into practice would have made the situation better. What about more Muslims being more Muslim making the "terrorist" situation worse or better?
My point wasn't that Christianity is bad, or even that it was entirely responsible for the Holocaust, although even the fucking Pope now admits that centuries of anti-Semitic preaching from the pulpits of the RCC certainly laid the groundwork and made their contribution.
I was objecting to the tone of Wilder's anti-Islamic venom, and in particular his fake outrage over the Muslims being taught that Jews are apes and pigs. The fucking European Christians did a hell of a lot worse, so he has his God-damn nerve complaining about the "apes and pigs" bullshit when he can look a lot closer to home for some much more villainous characters.
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I can wear a police uniform, even carry a gun....doesn't make me a police officer. Someone who may say they are Christian, or in this case, claim someone(s) are Christian, but acting in obvious non-Chritisan evil, is NOT a "practicing Christian", in any way, shape or form.
didn`t muslims say the samething about themselves?
I think I read it here also
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Very true Kimba. Which is why you don't see me bashing Islam. I bash those who mutate the message of the Koran to justify the killing of innocent people, who don't conform, or be allowed to be subjugated
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I don't need to look up any link to know who Corrie ten Boom was, and of course I admire her. You must have missed my point completely. There were many good Christians who fought the Nazis with everything they had, even German Christians, and paid with their lives for it. Just as there are Muslims who are opposed to the Islamic fanatics and paid with their lives too.
My point was that everybody (or say 99%) of the people who took part in executing the Holocaust were born Christians, raised in Christian homes and buried in Christian cemeteries.
Did Corrie Ten Boom understand Christian teaching poorly?
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According to the generally recognized Christian doctrine, the ideal and eventual fate is that Jesus will return, judge al the living and the dead, send the sinners (including that Jews who refuse to recognize Jesus as the Meissiah), to eternal punishment, and all those saved and converted will get their bodies back and Jesus will rule the Earth for 1000 years as King.
Not president, not prime minister, not Lord Protector, but king. There will be no elections, there will be no upper house, lower house or Supreme Court.
This is similar to some of what Mohammad preached, and of course, how an ideal or utopian government was conceived of 2000 years ago. The very best anyone could hope for was a wise and eternal king.
But this is a totalitarian system, nonetheless. Those sent off to Hell will not be advised of their right to an attorney, nor will any judgment get an appeal.
So Islam is no more totalitarian in concept than what Christians purport to believe, and this whole argument is rather bogus.
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Only God has a right to be king , all men are created equal.
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Only God has a right to be king , all men are created equal.
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Until Jesus presumably returns and takes his throne, God has refused to become king. He doesn't intervene.
But according to the Book of Revelation, when Jesus returns, he will eliminate all those who might oppose his rule and take the throne. I see a contradiction here. The Perfect World cannot exist for thousands of years because we must have free will; but at some indeterminate time in the future, those who used their free will unwisely will all be packed off to suffer eternally, and the Perfect World will be imposed upon us for the rather arbitrary period of a thousand years. Then, one assumes, everyone floats up to Heaven. This seems bizarre. Spending all eternity in the choir singing songs of praise seems like something one might tire of after a century or so, if not an hour or less. One can assume that (1) there will be regular potty breaks, or (2) potty breaks will be unnecessary. Obviously, St John the Divine was not given to including detail.
Islam is also rather bizarre, but even more bizarre are the visions of Elijah Mohammad and the Scientologists, which include space aliens. Space aliens and religion make for great humor on South Park, but make far less if taken seriously.
This is a bit like Disney World: exclude all that might disturb harmony and create a Perfect World. Except that Jesus will presumably not be selling cute, overpriced stuffed animals of Chinese manufacture or other tourist crap. Whether there will be a nightly parade is not mentioned.One can only hope. Fireworks might be nice as well.
Most Muslims, like most Christians do not spend much time thinking about the End of the World, and that is a good thing, I'd say. The idea that somehow the US has a moral obligation to declare war on Islam, which seems to be what CU4 wants to do, is insane. Just because someone quotes the Koran does not mean that the impulse to wreak mayhem on the world came from the Koran. Mostly, the idea to wreak mayhem came first, and then they trotted back to the Koran to justify it, in the same manner that CU4 believes that Jesus somehow is an advocate of less government. Jesus, at most, was opposed to Roman rule, and to the hypocrites among the Jews that did not follow the Torah properly (in his opinion. at least). Jesus offered no serious thoughts on political systems. Mohammad did, and what he advocated was doubtless an improvement on Arabic government prior to his arrival, but hardly anything anyone could call good government today.
We do not take all Jesus' recommendations with equal seriousness. He claimed that one need not wash one's hands before eating (with the hands: Jesus used neither tableware nor chopsticks) because what was in a man's mouth was far filthier. While this may be true, still, I always still wash before I eat, even when I use tableware. I would point out that the germs that already thrive in one's mouth are less a threat to one's health that germs one might import from one's hands, and one does not eat from some other person's mouth. Of course, if one is an immortal being, hygiene becomes immaterial. But still, a Divine Being who takes human form should try to set a good example. I am thinking that despite what Jesus said, washing before one eats makes perfect sense, while not washing up does not.
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I chaulk up washing hands as a foundation of good habits, would you prefer the kitchen staff to wash thier hands while in the bathroom. it does help that people around are washing thier hands also. true it`s not your responsibility to encourage hand washing but the risk factor in restaurant goes up if people in general don`t.
I believe legionaires disease could happen if people don`t wash hands in bathrooms
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<<But this is a totalitarian system, nonetheless. Those sent off to Hell will not be advised of their right to an attorney, nor will any judgment get an appeal.
<<So Islam is no more totalitarian in concept than what Christians purport to believe, and this whole argument is rather bogus.>>
LOL. Well said.
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The only difference might be that Christians are perhaps slightly more literate, and maybe more knowledgeable of what the Bible actually says than Muslims are of what the Koran says. The Madrassas teach Muslims to memorize the Koran, but they memorize it in Arabic, and a majority of Muslims do not speak Koranic Arabic.
A lot of both Christians and Muslims are clueless about the core beliefs of their respective religions. Was it Kramer who was unaware that Christians believed in the resurrection of the body, for example? There is rather a lot in the Bible, but I have observed over the years that most of it is never quoted in sermons at all. So it is rather bogus to assume that a majority, or even a significant minority of Muslims believe in the bloodier parts of the Koran as they might apply to live in our times. Islam is officially one thing, but what the believers actually are willing to do about it is something quite different. For the US to declare war on Islam is an insane proposition.
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I remember when I visited w. virginia and meet quite afew of my fellow baptist. I was shakened abit when none of them knew about the tower of babylon . I finally figure it out that alot of church goers never read the bible they get thier bible data directly from the preacher ONLY.
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<<I was shakened abit when none of them knew about the tower of babylon .>>
I think you meant the Tower of Babel. Whether that's the same thing as Babylon or not, I don't really know. It'd take a better Biblical scholar than I to know the answer to that one, but I know I never heard it referred to as Tower of Babylon.
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nope ,you got it right.
I didn`t even bring it up, it was used by this syrian girl explaining biblically her origin. it`s been over 10 years so I`ll eventually get stuff mixed. i still remember the movie
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Babylon was the center of several empires over the years. Babylon is near Baghdad and still exists. I think the alleged site of the Tower of Babel was nearby.
Here is the Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel)
Babel SOUNDS like Babylon, but apparently babel comes from the Hebrew balal "jumble", while Babylon comes from the Akkadian Balil-ilim, or "gate of God". The Tower was a zuggerat, a type of structure fairly common in what is now Iraq and S. Turkey.