DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: RoboPoster on August 09, 2010, 07:00:08 AM
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America Goes Dark
Paul Krugman, New York Times
The lights are going out all over America — literally. Colorado Springs has made headlines with its desperate attempt to save money by turning off a third of its streetlights, but similar things are either happening or being contemplated across the nation, from Philadelphia to Fresno. Paul Krugman Meanwhile, a country that once amazed the world with its visionary investments in transportation, from the Erie Canal to the Interstate Highway System, is now in the process of unpaving itself: in a number of states, local governments are breaking up roads they...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2010/08/08/america_goes_dark_239263.html
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Wow. Excellent article, and Krugman doesn't even mention the war. It's basically what I've been saying all along, without the moral judgmentalism, without the Zio-Nazi issue and without the anti-war slant. The U.S.A. is fucked, and, IMHO, deservedly so.
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Ironic it happens under the leadership of a 'dark' I mean a Black president.
Whoops, I forget its Bush's fault...
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Actually, a large part of the blame for the situation is bipartisan. Apparently both Democrats and Republicans contributed to the spending binge, although only Bush led the nation into two disastrous wars.
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Actually, a large part of the blame for the situation is bipartisan. Apparently both Democrats and Republicans contributed to the spending binge, although only Bush led the nation into two disastrous wars.
Don't be too confused Mikey there's a difference between Conservative and Liberal. If the country had gone down the Conservative path, which is my politics, everything would be fine. Instead the country went down your path, which is Liberal/Socialist/Communist/Marxist and look what happened. There are both Liberals and Conservatives in the Democrat & Republican Parties. It's the elected people that believe as I do in small government, less taxation, closed borders, private sector jobs creation over union jobs and government jobs. You are the fool, I am the way. Liberals are children, Conservatives are adults. You were for Obama because he is BLACK, I am against Obama because he is WRONG. Liberals voted for Obama because they are foolish.
Now all you liberals that created this shit-pile, sit back, and take your meds, and shut the fuck up, and get the hell out of the way so the adults can fix your mess.
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<<If the country had gone down the Conservative path, which is my politics, everything would be fine. >>
LOL. What could be more conservative than the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, and who more conservative than Republican Phil Gramm of Texas, who introduced the Senate bill that repealed it?
By October of 2008, while John Insane was delivering his asinine statement that the fundamentals of the economy were strong, the whole fucking roof fell in and America's leading financial institutions were in free-fall. The country DID "go down the Conservative path," and as a result came the closest they've ever been to total collapse since the Great Depression.
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That is a laugh. Kramer (mental age 13) talking about acting like an adult.
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Mikey the causes are many but if millions of unqualified people that got loans didn't default we would not be up shit creek. Democrats pressured lending institutions to make loans to these unqualified people. The government got involved and mucked it up just it it has done and is doing to health care. And at the end of the day everything Democrats touch turns to shit. Even I understood the Stimulus was silly and would not work. A four year old understands you can't spend your way out of a recession. The Japs learned that lesson back in the 80's. Anyway, Obama is in way over his inexperienced head. He's only in DC to party and vacation and fly around on Air Force One like a 12 year old kid.
Conservative principals will turn this thing around. The kids need to get out of our way. You and XO should just go play marbles, get out of the way, and let us do what we do best. American values are proven winners every time they are used.
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I doubt I would apply the term 'excellent article' to much of anything Krugman writes these days. And this article is no exception. He makes the far too common mistake of assuming that governments of various sizes are all cash strapped because the taxes are too low. Taxes are not too low, and lack of revenue is not the problem. Even if taxes were doubled, there was no resulting harm to the economy and government revenues were then doubled, in short order local, state and federal government would find themselves cash-strapped again because the problem is spending practices and attitudes held by governments. The federal government will have, by estimation, more total revenue for 2010 than it had in 2000 and not too far from double what it had in 1995. Yet, the government still complains it needs more money. The idea that the problem is a lack of revenue is complete foolishness.
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<<Mikey the causes are many but if millions of unqualified people that got loans didn't default we would not be up shit creek.>>
EXACTLY, Kramer. What do you think federal government oversight is for? With a regulatory agency demanding proper lending principles be applied, the whole God-damn clusterfuck would never have happened. Liberal principles: WATCH THE BASTARDS. Regulate them. Conservative principles: let the business people run their business without government regulation.
Well, in the repeal of Glass-Steagall, you saw the triumph of conservative principles over liberal New Deal legislation that dated back to the time of FDR. It didn't take more than a few years to see the whole fucking system go balls-up. So please let's not hear any more crap about "conservative principles." They just about sank the fucking ship and only the bail-out (which, naturally, the idiot conservatives opposed) was able to save it.
<<Democrats pressured lending institutions to make loans to these unqualified people. >>
And the bankers are paid millions of dollars in annual salary to knuckle under to Democratic demands. They made the loans kicking and screaming. None of them, not one, had the integrity, let alone the common business sense, to resist. Come off it, Kramer, that story (blame the Democrats) is a load of shit and you know it. It requires the heads of the biggest banks and financial institutions in the nation to be powerless wimps in the face of Democratic Party "pressure." Bullshit. They made the loans and took out their bonuses as fast as they could before the shit hit the fan, as they always knew it would. Democratic pressure, my ass.
<<The government got involved and mucked it up just it it has done and is doing to health care.>>
Nonsense.
<< And at the end of the day everything Democrats touch turns to shit. >>
More nonsense.
<<Even I understood the Stimulus was silly and would not work. A four year old understands you can't spend your way out of a recession. The Japs learned that lesson back in the 80's. >>
They bought their way out of a total financial collapse that would have been worse than the Great Depression. And if they don't make radical changes in the financial system, it's all going to happen again.
<<Anyway, Obama is in way over his inexperienced head. He's only in DC to party and vacation and fly around on Air Force One like a 12 year old kid.>>
Bullshit.
<<Conservative principals will turn this thing around. >>
LMFAO. Conservative principles almost sank the fucking ship. Take your head out of your ass, for christ sake. Look around at the real world, not some ideological BS that the conservative "think tanks" pump out every day.
<<The kids need to get out of our way. You and XO should just go play marbles, get out of the way, and let us do what we do best>>
What's that? Start wars that you can't win, let crooked businessmen bankrupt the whole fucking country in one bail out after another, and hand every fucking crook in the insurance business a licence to mint billion-dollar bills at the expense of the whole country? Thanks but no thanks.
<< American values are proven winners every time they are used.>>
Get over it. Your country's a fucking loser and is on its way down faster than you could ever imagine. The winners are the Chinese and the Indians, you guys are fucked and most of you know it by now.
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The winners are the Chinese and the Indians, you guys are fucked and most of you know it by now.
LOL odds are the chinese hold more toxic debt than american banks do.
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<<LOL odds are the chinese hold more toxic debt than american banks do. >>
NOBODY is going to escape the crash unscathed, you're right about that, but the Chinese are much better positioned than the U.S.A. is to withstand the effects of the crash. That said, they've got their problems too, there's no denying that. Social AND fiscal.
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The winners are the Chinese and the Indians, you guys are fucked and most of you know it by now.
MINDX Matthws INdia fund: up 46.3% for the year ended 7/31/2010
MCHFX Matthews China Fund: up 19.3% for the same year.
VFINX Vanguard S&P 500 Fund: up 13.7% for the same year.
Most of the US debt bought by the Chinese, as I understand it, was public debt, US govt issued bonds, NOT bundled mortgages. The Chinese who bought this were not private banks, but the Chinese government.
I think the cries of gloom and doom in here are grossly exaggerated and not based on reality.
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<<I think the cries of gloom and doom in here are grossly exaggerated and not based on reality.>>
XO, I bet you could have said the same thing the year before the financial crisis of 2008. The bail-out funds went into the pockets of the people responsible for the crash with minimal systemic change to show for it, and my prediction is that the whole teppel schmaltz will collapse again in a few years. Capitalism contains within itself the seeds of its own destruction, which New Deal liberalism has managed to stave off for decades now. However in reaction to the rapid growth of progressive and democratic ideas in the 1960s, the right wing has developed winning tactics - - sponsoring conservative "think tanks" which in opposition to the universities and the well-known liberal think tanks, can spew out poorly-researched, dishonest crap to promote "conservative" (i.e., reactionary) POVs and the parallel creation of an alternative network of conservative media, massively funded, to combat liberalism and finally roll back the New Deal. Personally I think the Sixties scared the shit out of them and they made a massive concerted effort to accomplish these goals and their campaign is succeeding. The sheer weight of money is making its effects felt.
In the absence of the moderating hand of liberalism, the conservative ruling class will destroy itself through its own greed, as communist theoreticians have always predicted. The seeds of the crash are already sown, and it's just a matter of time. Will a bail-out save them next time? Maybe. And the time after that? The writing is on the wall, XO. What's hilarious is that they're already pushing the next war, which of course they will get in the end. Meantime their economic rivals are gaining steadily. It's interesting, but it plays out over a longer interval than I used to think it would take.
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Until the Great Depression, there was a crisis, panic or collapse every 7 to 10 years.
But one thing for it to happen in just the USA, and another entirely for it to affect the entire planet. China and India avoided this crisis. Canada avoided most of it, as did North Dakota, with its state bank.
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Inadequate Spending?
In a column published last week in The New York Times, Princeton economics professor Paul Krugman condemns recent attempts to inject some common sense into what has become an epidemic of mindless government growth in America and around the world.
With the global economy teetering on the brink of another slowdown (due to excessive government borrowing associated with Europe?s failed welfare state), Krugman and other Keynesians ? including U.S. President Barack Obama ? are now lobbying aggressively for additional government ?stimulus? spending at home and abroad.
They say they want to protect a ?fragile recovery,? but Americans know better. With no new jobs, deteriorating consumer confidence and unexpectedly low retail reports putting a dent in the markets and on Main Street, the truth is there is no recovery ? there is only an attempt to justify more government growth. Specifically Krugman blasted several world leaders (although obviously not the leader of the ?free world?) for what he called ?preaching the need for belt-tightening when the real problem is inadequate spending.?
And no, that?s not a typo. He actually said ?inadequate spending.?
According to these ?New Keynesians,? the unsustainable government growth that preceded the most recent economic downturn apparently wasn?t enough. Nor was the unprecedented barrage of bailouts, taxpayer-funded guarantees, freshly-printed greenbacks and deficit spending that Washington threw at the problem over the last two years. And let?s not forget what has been heaped on top of all that ?stimulus? spending ? a $2.5 trillion socialized medicine plan that represents one of the largest expansions of entitlement spending in American history. Amazingly, despite the clear failure of the ?stimulus? ? and despite the fact that excess entitlement spending is what has driven the eurozone to its present precariousness ? the rallying cry of these big government backers appears to be ?we have only just begun to spend.?
Let?s examine the efficacy of that mantra for a moment, shall we?
Even prior to the onset of the ?Great Recession? in December 2007, government at all levels in the United States was growing by leaps and bounds. For example, state and local spending soared from $1.74 trillion in 2000 to $2.66 trillion in 2007. Even after adjusting for inflation, that?s a 23.7 percent increase. Similarly, federal spending jumped from $1.79 trillion in 2000 to $2.73 trillion in 2007 ? a roughly identical 23.5 percent increase after again adjusting for inflation.
Obviously, this upward trend was placed on steroids when the downturn began. For starters more than $13 trillion has been spent, lent, printed or pledged on ?recovery? efforts alone over the last two-and-a-half years.
Also, Washington?s two most recent federal budgets have added more than $3 trillion in deficit spending to our skyrocketing national debt, with trillions of dollars in additional red ink projected over the coming decade.
Accordingly, when we add post-2007 spending to the total tab for the decade, the government growth rate has more than doubled ? to 52.4 percent.
By comparison, total government spending in the 1990s grew at a much slower rate ? by approximately 17.4 percent ? which enabled more economic activity and the creation of more wealth up and down the socio-economic ladder. In fact, per capita personal income during the 1990s grew by 23.6 percent, adjusted for inflation. By comparison, per capita personal income during the first decade of the new millennium has grown by only 4.6 percent ? a sad testament to the failure of the Keynesian philosophy that Washington continues pursuing with reckless abandon.
This is not rocket science, it is common sense. The more government grows, the more the economy suffocates. Conversely, the more government contracts, the freer we will be as a nation to prosper.
Article (http://townhall.com/columnists/HowardRich/2010/07/09/inadequate_spending)