DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: sirs on May 19, 2011, 06:19:20 PM

Title: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 19, 2011, 06:19:20 PM
Observing now how this country, and once the strongest allie of Israel is now dictating that Israel return land used to defend itself from Arab aggression, should we not provide the appropriate example by giving California back to Mexico?  Perhaps Louisiana back to France?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 19, 2011, 06:47:35 PM
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 19, 2011, 06:56:41 PM
I predict:

That Israel will NOT bend at the demands being made upon them, to give up lands taken in DEFENSE of their country and existance

Hamas will fire far more rockets, with Iran/Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas attempting far more Homicide Bombers to be sent into Israel

Israel will RETALIATE

Wash, Rinse, Repeat
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 19, 2011, 07:03:49 PM
SIRS....I sware I cant tell you how often in the last two years I have thought
other countries leaders are looking out for our interests more than the jackass
that now sits in the oval office.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 19, 2011, 07:09:48 PM
Starting to make Carter look.....regal, in comparison    :P
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 19, 2011, 07:19:06 PM
I think the final deal is already set. Be interesting to see what Hollywood has to say. If they don't go ballistic, my guess is that Israel will keep the most important land gains from 67 and in the spirit of peace give back the rest.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 19, 2011, 07:34:24 PM
With all due respect, the most important land gains are precisely the areas Israel took in defending themselves...in particular the Golan Heights
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 19, 2011, 08:39:32 PM
(http://www.topnews.in/files/link.golan.heights.map.lg.jpg)

The Golan Heights deal with Syria, what does that have to do with lands to the West?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 19, 2011, 08:42:52 PM
My prediction is that it no longer matters what the United States says regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Which is fine with me. We've given Israel more than enough in weapons and financial assistance to get the job done 20 times over. And, they show about as much gradutude as a polecat. They should have solved this years ago.  Fuck 'em, times up. 


BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 19, 2011, 10:12:42 PM

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/WAVINGFLAG.gif)

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 19, 2011, 10:44:09 PM
Here's what I am talking about SIRS....
The Saudi's comprehend the Iranian threat while Obozo sells us down the river!
Thanks King Abdullah for telling Obama...to go to hell!

Gulf Sunni Royalist Bloc Expands

Saudis to US: No More Oil Trade for US Security Shield

(http://www.debka.com/dynmedia/photos/2011/05/20/big/2.jpg)
Saudi King Abdullah

Saudi King Abdullah landed a surprise on the Gulf Cooperation Council summit convened in Riyadh Tuesday, May 10: He proposed inviting two Arab monarchs, Morocco's King Mohammed V and Jordan's King Abdullah II to join the GCC with full membership privileges. Neither kingdom is situated in the Persian Gulf geographic region which is represented by the GCC; nor do they have oil or gas and their economies are weak and dependent on American aid. Morocco and Jordan are furthermore not in Iran's cross-hairs, the threat of which is uppermost in the minds of Gulf rulers (along with the crisis in Yemen) Nonetheless both sides stand to gain from the partnership.

Although they have not yet officially answered the invitation, Gulf sources do not doubt it will be taken up willingly by the monarchs of Rabat and Amman. Their entry into the Gulf alliance would bring their armies into the mutual defense system known as Gulf Shield. It would qualify them for a military role in the ongoing Saudi-led GCC operation for propping up the Bahraini throne but, as full members, they would also enjoy the benefits of the Gulf's common market and be able to trim down their dependence on American economic and military aid.

GCC seeks extra leverage to fight Obama's Muslim vision

The affluent and powerful Arab Gulf grouping, for its part, would gain extra leverage for pursuing its main goals. Attaching Jordan and Morocco would downgrade the Egyptian-dominated Arab League and bypass its decisions which must be unanimous to be binding.

The expanded GCC would also be divorced from post-Mubarak Egyptian influence.
Saudi Arabia, one of the Arab League's seven founding members in 1945, is now bent on expanding the Sunni Arab royalist alignment to replace the League as the most powerful inter-Arab vehicle for challenging the two emergent Muslim forces seeking Middle East domination.

One is the mixed Shiite-Sunni grouping of radicals - Iran, Syria, the Lebanese Hizballah and the Palestinian Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Damascus-based extremists.

The second is the Sunni bloc President Barack Obama and Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan are in the process of creating.
The US president conceives this alignment as America's Muslim bridge to the moderate Sunni Muslims at large as well as reaching out to Shiite Iran for the sake of tempering its radical polices at the end of the road.

The special US-Saudi relations are history

Because of this plan, King Abdullah embarked on the phased separation of the kingdom's foreign and security policies from the US, starting with his acrimonious telephone conversation with Obama which took place on Feb. 9 when he was recuperating from back surgery in Morocco.

Since then, the Saudi king has made no bones about letting the US president know that, for him, the oil-for-security formula which governed relations between the world?s leading superpower and its biggest oil superpower for 60 years is history.
This means in practice that Saudi Arabia no longer depends on an American defense umbrella for its security and America can no longer rely on Riyadh "to regulate its oil supply policy and therefore its financial activities on world markets" for meeting US political, military and economic interests.

Obama initially sent two senior officials to Riyadh - US Defense Secretary Robert Gates on April 6 and by US National Security Adviser Tom Donilon on April 12 - to try and bring the Saudis back into the fold. Abdullah was not to be talked around.
Riyadh's policy reorientation is now anchored in six major changes, outlined here:

Under Saudi consensus, intelligence functions redistributed

1. The king has created the Saudi version of a unity government by pulling together the three main royal factions on the basis of a consensus. Abdullah's own faction and the two headed by Saudi Foreign Minister Saud bin Faisal, and Saudi Interior Minister and designated crown prince, the Sudairi Prince Nayef, all agree that the kingdom has come to a parting of the ways in its historic alliance with the United States. Saudi Arabia is strong enough and rich enough to look after its security and interests without America and is at liberty to turn to other world powers for help, such as China and Russia.
2. The functions of Saudi intelligence have been rearranged to reflect the new coalition: Up until now, Prince Muqrin bin Abdulaziz ruled supreme over Saudi intelligence agencies. In recent weeks, some of his functions were transferred to the National Security Council Director, the Sudairi Prince Bandar bin Sultan.
Intelligence sources describe the division of labor as follows:
Muqrin deals with the intelligence matters relating to Iran, Iraq, Persian Gulf states and outside the Middle East in such areas as Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Bandar is in charge of intelligence and undercover operations in the Arab countries which are in the throes of popular uprisings. Formerly a long-serving Saudi ambassador to Washington, he has also been taxed with dealing with issues arising from the dismantling of the working alliance between the United States and Saudi Arabia.
The decision by Riyadh to shop for ballistic missiles in China instead of America fell within his remit along with the negotiations for concluding the transaction.

Bandar leads Saudi operations against Assad and US Muslim policies

Bandar is running Saudi intervention against Assad in the Syrian popular uprising. When he needed the help of Saudi clandestine networks in Iraq for his Syrian project, he turned to Muqrin and they worked it out together.
In another facet of the division of labor, Bandar handles Saudi day-to-day activities for spiking America's Middle East policies, whereas Muqrin is in charge of the high-level policy interchanges between the Saudi and US intelligence services.
3. For Riyadh, there is no contradiction between the two functions: King Abdullah does not seek to sever all Saudi ties with the US. Indeed, however it may look, Riyadh attaches great importance to those ties, such as they are, provided only that they do not amount to a special relationship in the old format.
4. Neither is Saudi Arabia cutting its economy off from the US dollar although this is advocated by many in Riyadh and the Gulf emirates.
5. However, they part company on at least one fundamental issue: The Saudis and their GCC allies are single-minded about their determination to fight Iran's Islamic regime tooth and nail wherever its footprint is encountered in any Persian Gulf, Middle East or Arab countryeven if this drive brings them into collision with Washington and sabotages President Obama's policy objectives.
6. The Saudi leadership does not trust Barack Obama's approach to Iran, the Arab Revolt, or the Muslim world.

Obama denounces military intervention in Bahrain

To make this point clear to the American public ahead of President Obama's speech Thursday, a prominent Saudi academic close to the royal circle published an article in the Washington Post laying out Riyadh's current posture. The writer was Nawaf Obaid, senior fellow at the King Faisal Center for Research & Islamic Studies, an institute headed by Prince Turki Al-Faisal.
Turki is a former Saudi intelligence director and ambassador to the US and Britain. Today, he is a key member of the new Saudi governing coalition and has the king's ear.

In Washington, sources report, the penny finally dropped: Riyadh wanted no part of the Obama administration's strategies for Iran and the Arab Revolt and the special bonds between Washington and Riyadh were no more.
Obaid used plain language to make sure the American public got the message:
His article opened with the words, "A tectonic shift has occurred in the US-Saudi relationship. Despite significant pressure from the Obama administration" and ended by saying: "Saudi Arabia has the will and the means to meet its expanded global responsibilities". In some issues, such as counterterrorism and efforts to fight money laundering, the Saudis will continue to be a strong US partner. In areas in which Saudi national security or strategic interests are at stake, the kingdom will pursue its own agenda.

"With Iran working tirelessly to dominate the region, the Muslim Brotherhood rising in Egypt and unrest on nearly every border, there is simply too much at stake for the kingdom to rely on a security policy written in Washington, which has backfired more often than not and spread instability. The special relationship may never be the same.
And indeed, in his speech Thursday, May 19, Obama did not mention Saudi Arabia but condemned its "repressive military action" in Bahrain. This was the first time a US President has ever denounced a Saudi military operation.
Since the beginning of the year, there has been a widening rift between Saudi Arabia and the United States. Word has now come virtually from the horse's mouth.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 19, 2011, 11:44:24 PM
I agree entirely with BSB. Israel should cease in its land grabs in the West Bank and start behaving in concordance with the UN Charter. Settlements must be moved, Palestine must be given territorial integrity.

This is in keeping with UN Resolution 242. Time to read Netanyahu the Riot Act.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 19, 2011, 11:53:20 PM
  It is hard to talk anyone into suicide.

Isreal's citizens mostly do think that if they become vunerable they will be attacked .

Are they wrong about this? The 1967 borders were not much good at makeing anyone happy in 1967.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 19, 2011, 11:54:44 PM
(http://www.tyeporter.com/PortersFTP/CNSNewsLogo01.jpg)

Rabbi: "The President of the United States is Asking for Ethnic Cleansing"

Thursday, May 19, 2011
By Fred Lucas

(CNSNews.com) President Barack Obama has made an unprecedented demand on Israel, Jewish leaders said today after the president called for Israel to redraw its borders to where they were in 1967 before the Six Day War. One rabbi said Obama was, in essence, asking for "ethnic cleansing" of thousands of Jewish families.

"It's immoral in that basically the president of the United States is asking that 500,000 people who live, work, and raise families around Jerusalem, Jewish families,? that they be uprooted, resettled, deported from their homes, have their families broken," Rabbi Aryeh Spero, founder of Caucus for America, told CNSNews.com.

"The president of the United States is asking for ethnic cleansing," said Rabbi Spero.  "It's ironic that the president, who speaks in humanitarian tones regarding the Palestinians, doesn't have any humanitarian concerns toward 500,000 Jewish people and families that will be uprooted and deported from their homes."

Obama made the demand on Israel during a speech on the Middle East, delivered at the State Department on Thursday, as a way to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But Spero believes Obama was not being honest.

"Every time Israel relinquishes land on the altar of peace, it gets not peace but rockets," Spero said. "This has been played over and over by the Palestinian Authority, then with Yasser Arafat, with Hamas. He knows what will happen with the Israelis, and yet it doesn't seem to bother him."

"I'm just very disappointed that my president seems to be so indifferent to the plight of the Jewish people in Israel," he said.

Though Israel has given up land to Palestinians in the past because of pressure from the United States, no U.S. president has asked this much, said Rabbi Gershon Tannenbaum, director of the Rabbinical Alliance of America.

"It's par for the course, but not to this extent," Tannenbaum told CNSNews.com. "In other words, other presidents have also pressured Israel with the hope of achieving some kind of peace. But considering the history and considering facts on the ground, no president has been as severe as President Obama."

However, Tannenbaum thinks the proposal is a non-starter primarily because the borders have never been the issue.

"The suggestion is going to die, this is not going to work," he said. "It won't go anywhere. If you notice, there was an attack on all the borders of the state of Israel. There was an attack on the 1967 borders. The problem with Israel for the Palestinians is the very existence of the state of Israel -- not its borders -- but that it exists at all. They will not rest until there is no Israel."

But Spero is not so sure the proposal will just go away, even without support from Congress.

"While he [Obama] can't force the Jewish people out of their lands, he can certainly pressure Israel to the point where it finds itself in a very insecure state of affairs," said Rabbi Spero. "He could without certain military weapons and parts that are needed for Israel?s defense. So, it?s a tremendous amount of intimidation and pressure."

Israel expanded its territory after the Six Day War defeating Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Israel gained the West Bank, the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, and the Sinai Peninsula (the Sinai was returned to Egypt in a deal brokered in 1978). Since 1967, and most notably in the early 1990s, Israel gave up significant amounts of land for peace to the Palestinians. The conflict has nevertheless raged onward.

"The reason Israel today is bigger than it was in 1967 is because the Arab countries united in an attack against Israel,
Tannenbaum said. "Miraculously, Israel fought them off and won. Now Israel has returned a majority of the West Bank and Israel has returned the Gaza Strip. There still is no peace. So at this point, returning more land is counterproductive and is not the answer. And the president is wrong in his plan."

On the eve of a visit to the U.S. by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the timing of the announcement seemed calculating, said Rabbi Yehuda Levin, a spokesman for the Rabbinical Alliance of America.

"I'm not a political Zionist," said the rabbi. "I have my problems with the state of Israel and the things that they do that flies in the face of our religious traditional heritage. Nevertheless, in terms of security for human beings, one has to be totally concerned. I have many family members and extended family members and fellow Jews in Israel and I'm concerned for their safety."

"I'm just prayerful that the Congress of the United States will respond to the Jewish people and residents of Israel that the position of one human being as president does not reflect what the country feels," Levin said.

Obama recognized the negotiations would be a challenge because of the agreement between the Fatah, the leading Palestinian political party and the terrorist group Hamas, but he reaffirmed America?s relationship with Israel.

Still the speech has sparked concern and widespread coverage.

"We welcome the president's recognition of Israel's security needs and that Hamas cannot be a partner in the peace process, but a call to a return to 1967 borders as the basis for negotiations, even with "land swaps" is a non-starter, when at least half of the Palestinian rulers are committed to Israel's destruction," said Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in a written statement. "The road to peace has been clear for a long time -- direct negotiations between parties who recognize each other's legitimacy."

Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla), in a statement released after the president?s speech, said: "This proposal is a slap in the face of our friend and democracy's only ally in the Middle East: Israel. As a nation, we should support and promote freedom and democracy in the region, but we should not do so at the expense of Israel.  That land belongs to Israel period."

"Based on archeological evidence and historical right, that land belongs to Israel," said Inhofe. "As I have outlined several times before, Israel is a strategic ally to the United States that acts as a roadblock to terrorism.  Every other country in that region hates Israel and would stop at nothing for Israel?s destruction just as they would stop at nothing to see our own destruction."

"President Obama's speech today kowtows to the very forces that hate us," said the senator. "I will try to address all these issues on the Senate floor next week to refute President Obama?s message today."

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/rabbis-respond-obama-speech-ethnic-clean (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/rabbis-respond-obama-speech-ethnic-clean)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 19, 2011, 11:57:45 PM
This is not suicide for Israel, just as the accords in Northern Ireland were not suicide for the IRA.

The Israelis have killed far more Palestinians than vice versa, anyway.

And in any case, they have had over 50 years to sort this out. It should not be a perpetual problem for people in this country to pay for.

The US will always be Israel's best allies, because they have no other allies at all, because they are so bloody obnoxious.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 20, 2011, 12:00:27 AM
This is not suicide for Israel, just as the accords in Northern Ireland were not suicide for the IRA.


I don't see the simularity .

flatly


Every time that Isreal has been vunerable it has been attacked.

But if they lie down and break down all the security they have now , there will be no attack.

Really?  How ? What is diffrent now?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 20, 2011, 12:07:27 AM
There are attacks on Jews by Arabs and vice versa regardless of concessions. Jews regularly attack and harass and occasionally maim and kill Palestinians in Hebron regularly.

This is NOT MY PROBLEM. Let Israel deal with its own damn problems. We have subsidized them and their colonizations long enough.

The Arab World is changing.There is no better time than now to deal with this.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 20, 2011, 12:11:50 AM
  We are subsidiseing both sides.

More support to Isreal , but the Palistinians would starve quicker if we were not.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 20, 2011, 02:54:58 AM
The Golan Heights deal with Syria, what does that have to do with lands to the West?

I thought we were referring to strategic lands, Israel acquired in defending itself.  The Golan Heights aren't some of them??
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 20, 2011, 03:10:03 AM
  We are subsidiseing both sides.

More support to Isreal , but the Palistinians would starve quicker if we were not.

Excellent point.  So, we're all in agreement, no one gets anything from the U.S., correct?  No Israeli subsidizing and no Palestinian subsidizing, correct?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Religious Dick on May 20, 2011, 04:06:00 AM
  We are subsidiseing both sides.

More support to Isreal , but the Palistinians would starve quicker if we were not.

Excellent point.  So, we're all in agreement, no one gets anything from the U.S., correct?  No Israeli subsidizing and no Palestinian subsidizing, correct?

Works for me.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 20, 2011, 06:12:03 AM
(http://www.tyeporter.com/PortersFTP/CNSNewsLogo01.jpg)

Rabbi: "The President of the United States is Asking for Ethnic Cleansing"



*Chuckle* Ever dramatic, the only ethnic cleansing that will happen to Israelis is due to Palestinians reproducing faster and outnumbering them quite naturally.

Never mind the Arab ethnic cleansing that the Israelis have been doing for decades. But Arabs aren't human, so it doesn't count.  :-X
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 20, 2011, 08:46:05 AM
Henny: "Never mind the Arab ethnic cleansing that the Israelis have been doing for decades."
 

That's just a little social engineering from the right. Nothing to be concerned with.


BSB
Title: Israel must give up settelments
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 20, 2011, 11:24:44 AM
The Golan is not part of the disputed territory. It was never part of Palestine or the British Palestine Protectorate. It was a part of Syria. This is not something that concerns the two-state solution.

If there is a two-state solution, the 1967 borders are where they need to begin negotiations. For everything that the Israelis keep, they have to offer something in return.

Territory acquired by conquest cannot be retained without mutual agreement. That is in the UN Charter. Israel's existence was a result of the UN.

And this has NOTHING to do with American Indians or any other conquests prior to 1945.

The last agreement that Clinton negotiated used the 1967 borders as a basis. ALL serious negotiations so far have done this.

Netanyahu is a farce. He claims he wants to negotiate, but he torpedoes every talk session with some annoying violation, time after time. He wants to wear the Palestinians down and keep all the WB. So screw him.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 20, 2011, 01:28:58 PM
The Golan Heights, like the West Bank, is a strategic DEFENSIVE area of land.  THAT was the point
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 20, 2011, 03:15:36 PM
No, the point is that negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israelis will not include discussions over the Golan Heights. The Golan will belong either to Israel or to Syria. It was never part of Palestine, and no Palestinians claims it. It does not adjoin any part of the West Bank. Look at a map.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 20, 2011, 03:59:42 PM
No, the point is the strategic lands, that BT brought up as a reference of what Israel would and wouldn't accept.  That includes the Golan Heights along with the obvious West Bank
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 20, 2011, 04:02:40 PM
Only in the madcap land of sirs.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 20, 2011, 04:42:16 PM
LOL....hit paydirt (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/another-wow-daniels-would-pick-condi-rice-for-vp/msg124510/#msg124510).  Thank you for playing.  We have some nice parting gifts for you     8)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: kimba1 on May 20, 2011, 05:20:23 PM
it`s a shame how screwed up this is. if some guy offered Australia to either party to leave ,it will highly likely not be taken. these folks are risking their families lives for a concept of land rights.

I wonder if they be willing to nuke it or is that a step too far even for them?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 20, 2011, 08:21:21 PM
SMACKDOWN!!!
I AM SO PROUD OF BIBI!
THIS DAY IS A DAY FOR THE HISTORY BOOKS!
BELOVED ISRAEL SAYS NO!!!
NEVER AGAIN!!! NETZAH!!! AM YISRAEL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fUhxQRKSCk&feature=player_embedded#at=188 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fUhxQRKSCk&feature=player_embedded#at=188)


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 20, 2011, 09:21:12 PM
That concludes Prediction #1 (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124645/#msg124645)

Let's see how long it takes for #2 to hit
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 20, 2011, 10:12:54 PM
SIRS....these days are odd for me....I am cheering other countries leaders against my own!

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/a0481903.jpg)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 21, 2011, 12:18:20 AM
How does it feel to be a traitor to your own country and a suckup to a puny beggar state like Israel?

What a doofus!

Netanyahu is such a turd.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 21, 2011, 12:30:49 AM
We need this kind of President that does not trash our friends.

http://youtu.be/Zy7Zn-f2zg8 (http://youtu.be/Zy7Zn-f2zg8)








Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 21, 2011, 12:34:39 AM
F*ck that goddamned Netanyahu and f*ck the nag he rode in on.

We need to read the damned Israelis the riot acts. They have p!ssed away far too much of our money and caused us nothing but problems with the rest of the world.

Obama is EXACTLY right to say what he said. Let Netanyahu go beg elsewhere.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 21, 2011, 12:42:27 AM
Obama is EXACTLY right to say what he said. Let Netanyahu go beg elsewhere.

Then I sincerely hope Obama says and does exactly what you say during the 2012 election!
"F the PM of Israel" and "Let (Israel) go beg elsewhere"
Lets see how well your words play with the American People!
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 21, 2011, 12:50:02 AM
Netanyahu is one of 12 Mid East leaders saying no to Obama

DEBKAfile Exclusive Analysis

May 20, 2011, 7:38 PM (GMT+02:00)

By rejecting US President Barack Obama's proposal for Israel and its troops to pull back from the West Bank to behind the indefensible 1967 lines, Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu lands in the company of eleven Middle East and North African rulers who spurned Washington's Middle East policy in the six months of the unfolding Arab uprising. Egypt's Hosni Mubarak was the only one to keep faith with Obama and he was pushed out for his pains.

Barack Obama's presentation of his Middle East vision Thursday, May 19 had three immediate results:

1.  Every surviving regional leader was confirmed in his determination to keep his distance from US administration policies;

2.  Another nail was driven in the coffin of the stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace process;

3.  The fuel that was poured on regional tensions increased the prospects of an Israel-Palestinian or an Israeli-Arab war this year.

No Israeli politician can afford to back away from the demand that Israel retain a security presence and defensible borders along its eastern boundary and, even more so, on the West Bank in any future peace accord. This fundamental principle was not denied by opposition leaders Tzipi Livni and Shaul Mofaz even as they poured boiling oil on the prime minister's head for getting into an argument with the US president.

But this repudiation is exactly what Obama wants.

The notion that Israel can achieve security through peace talks is a pipe dream because no Palestinian negotiator will think of seeking fewer concessions from Israel than the ones laid down by the US president. He will simply use the speech as a starting-point for the biggest squeeze Israel has ever faced.

Obama saw this maxim played out in his first two years in office: First, he said Netanyahu must freeze West Bank settlement construction. The Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, when he first heard about it, found the demand absurd ? it had never been put to any former prime minister either by Washington or the Palestinians. But after Obama led the way, Abbas could demand no less. So he shrugged and turned this demand into a useful pretext in his maneuvers for wriggling out of talking to Israel.

The Israeli Prime Minister after practically begging the Palestinians to sit down and talk for two years has now put his foot down against the new Obama proposals. If he stands by this refusal, he leaves the vast region stretching across the Middle East, the Persian Gulf and North Africa without a single political, military or royal ruler willing to accept Obama's new policy principles. The only possible exception may be Turkish Prime Minster Tayyip Erdogan.
The regional anti-Obama opposition falls into two camps:

The largest consists of eight former American allies, some of them ex-strategic partners, which is headed by the Saudi royal family. A leading Saudi spokesman Nawaf Obaid brought the Riyadh-Washington rupture out in the open for the first time on May 16 in the form of a Washington Post op-ed.

 "In some issues, such as counterterrorism and efforts to fight money laundering, the Saudis will continue to be a strong US partner," he wrote. "In areas in which Saudi national security or strategic interests are at stake, the kingdom will pursue its own agenda. The oil for security formula is history? The special relationship may never be the same??

Saudi King Abdullah has already swept the half a dozen GCC (Cooperation Council of the Arab States of the Gulf) behind the separate security and strategic policies he is pursuing independently of the US and often diametrically opposed to Obama's course. He has invited Jordan, Morocco and Yemen to join the group.

The suggestion put by Jordanian monarch Abdullah II to Obama this week that the US transfer its sponsorship of the Israel-Palestinian issue to the GCC underscored the rising power of the new Gulf grouping and was firmly rejected.
The second camp consists of four anti-US Arab rulers, Syria's Bashar Assad, the Libyan Muammar Qaddaf, President Ali Abdullah Saleh of Yemen and King Hamad bin Isa al Khalifa of Bahrain, who have resorted to armed violence to suppress the pro-democracy movements sponsored by President Obama.

Saudi Arabia is propping the Bahraini and Yemen regimes up with cash, arms, military assistance and intelligence. All four are determined to do whatever it takes to avoid the fate that befell Hosni Mubarak.
The only leaders who until Thursday, May 19, stood out against joining both those camps were the military council ruling Egypt and the Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas.

The generals in Cairo nod obediently when faced with demands from Washington and do nothing.

The Palestinian leader called the Obama speech "disappointing" in that no timeline or diplomatic mechanisms were offered. The US President poured scorn on Abbas' plan to seek unilateral UN recognition of Palestinian statehood in September, hoping to shut the door on yet another ploy for avoiding peace talks with Israel. The Palestinian leader may well defy him.
Abbas, even after losing his key patron Mubarak, is still juggling several balls in the hope of pushing Israel into a corner.  Netanyahu, for his part, having stayed passive in the face of the new currents blowing in from Washington and the Arab revolt, has reached crunch time with the US president without strong cards.

A falling-out between the White House and the Israeli prime minister will also box Abbas into a choice of which anti-Obama Arab camp to jump into ? the group led by Saudi Arabia or the Syrian group which also includes Hamas with whom he has just signed a unity pact.

In the long run, that pact may have saddled him with undesirable options.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 21, 2011, 11:29:49 AM
Bah. This is rot and nonsense.

The 1967 borders have ALWAYS been the basis for negotiations. And they always will be.

As for Bibi, screw him. He needs to spend time under a bus.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 21, 2011, 12:12:47 PM
Reality doesn't suit you well.  Current reality pre-67 borders of no greater than 9miles, literally cut the state of Israel in half, and make an indefensible position:

(http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/borders.gif)

Shall we get messers Hamas, Hezbollah, & Syria on official parchment, that any military action taken upon Israel, will result in a complete carpet bombing of their respective areas?  Get THAT on paper, and we can start to consider the non-starter of pre-67 borders
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 21, 2011, 12:13:15 PM
What you Israel haters don't understand is there is no such thing as a "Palestinian people".
It's a fact. No amount of spin, no amount of political correctness can change what the truth is.

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism."

Former Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 21, 2011, 12:17:15 PM
Current reality pre-67 borders of no greater than 9miles, literally cut the state of Israel in half, and make an indefensible position:
SIRS you are once again correct!

Watch short video below:

Land for Peace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfuUR3BRRSc#)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 21, 2011, 01:43:35 PM
Extremist Zionist rightwing bullsh!t of the first order. Not even most Israelis believe this.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 21, 2011, 01:49:05 PM
One can definately deduce when Xo has completely run dry of irrational explanations and deflection efforts.  The insults and cursing pretty much proportionally get far more predominant, in subsequent responses
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 21, 2011, 02:59:40 PM
The '67 boarders plus land swaps is where everyone knows it has to end up.

Meanwhile Hamas continues to deny the existence of Israel, and Israel itself is grows more and more isolated.

Peace? Not this time around, no chance.

As for Saudi Arabia and the Duh Doofus Files? Since when hasn't Saudi followed its own perceived national interests?

BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 21, 2011, 03:03:54 PM
No it doesn't.  It MUST start with some firm grasp of what will happen to ANY Arab neighbor that sets one foot or launches 1 rocket into Israel, before Israel could even possibly consider splitting their nation into 2 largely indefensible regions.

Going back to indefensible 67borders with a mere "promise to try and be peaceful", is a non starter.  Simple as that
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 21, 2011, 03:34:56 PM
Quote
The '67 boarders plus land swaps is where everyone knows it has to end up.

I agree as far as the Palestinians go. I doubt the Golan Heights will be part of the discussion as that deals with Syria.

Wouldn't it be ironic to see Palestinian bulldozers knocking down some Israeli settlement houses in the disputed territories.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 21, 2011, 04:16:35 PM
To say that the 1967 borders are indefensible is demonstrably inaccurate, since they have been defended successfully in several wars. There are no natural barriers in Israel now,and historically the ancient nations of Israel and Judea were constantly being overrun by damn near everyone: Egyptians, Assyrians, Lebanese, Babylonians, Philistines, Persians and Medes.

Israel is on the wrong continent to be truly defensible. What they really need is an island somewhere. Perhaps the Falklands, after they buy off the claims of the UK, Argentina and all those sheep. Or perhaps the Chinese would sell then Hainan. They were too late for Australia, Western Australia would have been perfect, except for the kangaroos not being kosher.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 21, 2011, 04:26:46 PM
To say that the 1967 borders are indefensible is demonstrably inaccurate, since they have been defended successfully in several wars....

and AFTER 67, when they were taken to better DEFEND Israel.  Somoene who not only has problems with the English language, but with the realities of war and defensive positions, taken as a result of war.  9 miles is so ridiculous, without provisions, WITH TEETH, that make it clear what the repercussions will be, if any further attacks are launched from either the West Bank or Golan Heights, if such lands are returned to messers Jordan and/or Syria, for Palestinian development.  And not just repercussions produced by Israel, but by the international community

Did anyone catch that?.....sirs is proclaiming that Israel CAN go back to pre-67 borders, with a big IF....  Now, who's with me on the IF?  Bt?.....BsB?......Xo?

 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 21, 2011, 04:46:26 PM
You are harping on this 9 mile wide thing like perhaps Israel truly was the aggressor in the 67 war. They seemed happy with the nine miles beforehand.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 21, 2011, 05:01:25 PM
There are two things which aren't up for debate, sirs, and everyone knows it whether they openly admit it or not. One: Whoever represents the Palestinians has to recognize Israel's right to exist. Two: A Palestinian state will be drawn on the pre '67 borders plus land swaps. As for the Golan Heights, as BT said, that's between Israel and Syria.
 
However, it's all theoretical at the moment because there ain't going to be any real negotiations. It's sorta like Newt Gingrich's presidential campaign. It's a figment of the imagination.


BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 21, 2011, 05:25:34 PM
The 9 mile wide thing is part of a speech that Jews get when they come to Israel. Dividing Israel in half does not seem to have been a plan by any of Israel's enemies in any of their wars. After the 9-mile wide speech, then they go to Massadah and discuss the words "suicide", followed by a visit to a Holocaust site, where they get the "never again" speech.Then, after three hits of guilt,  the hat is passed. The less bellicose are invited to plant trees with their donations. Some trees are planted a dozen times or more. Israel spends money as it sees fit, and donors rarely complain.


Israel is far more defensible than Egypt. Egypt's fate depends on one medium sized bomb blowing up the Aswan Dam. Turkey has the Bosporus, and so forth and so on.

If the Palestinians do not try to invade, then the entire point is moot. The silly Hamas rockets are basically dangerous toys, and most weekends there are more traffic fatalities than all those who have been harmed by them. Netanyahu's goal is to appear willing to talk seriously, but to delay and sabotage every session with some outrage that drives the Palestinians away. As this process continues, Israel continues to build and enlarge settlements in the West Bank.

I simply resent being taxed to pay for this nonsense. There needs to be a peaceful agreement to a two-state country, because these people cannot stand one another.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 21, 2011, 06:07:29 PM
You are harping on this 9 mile wide thing like perhaps Israel truly was the aggressor in the 67 war. They seemed happy with the nine miles beforehand.

Yea, BEFORE THEY WERE ATTACKED....Before the surrounding Arab nations attempted to remove Israel from their location.  THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE THEM NOW....AS A DEFENSIVE POSITION.  They weren't "stolen"


There are two things which aren't up for debate, sirs, and everyone knows it whether they openly admit it or not. One: Whoever represents the Palestinians has to recognize Israel's right to exist. Two: A Palestinian state will be drawn on the pre '67 borders plus land swaps.

Actually, there are 3 things, 1 of which is the IF, I'm referring to.  Now, are any of you 3 ready to put some substance to your rhetoric and address that, or is this all just alot of blather, that will not go anywhere, and peace is simply a pipedream??


Sirs

 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 21, 2011, 07:38:15 PM
You are harping on this 9 mile wide thing like perhaps Israel truly was the aggressor in the 67 war. They seemed happy with the nine miles beforehand.

Yea, BEFORE THEY WERE ATTACKED....Before the surrounding Arab nations attempted to remove Israel from their location.  THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE THEM NOW....AS A DEFENSIVE POSITION.  They weren't "stolen"




There are two things which aren't up for debate, sirs, and everyone knows it whether they openly admit it or not. One: Whoever represents the Palestinians has to recognize Israel's right to exist. Two: A Palestinian state will be drawn on the pre '67 borders plus land swaps.

Actually, there are 3 things, 1 of which is the IF, I'm referring to.  Now, are any of you 3 ready to put some substance to your rhetoric and address that, or is this all just alot of blather, that will not go anywhere, and peace is simply a pipedream??


Sirs

Here is a history of Israel in maps. Perhaps it will prove to be enlightening.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/ (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 21, 2011, 07:49:13 PM
SIRS.....watch this to better understand how Obozo is attempting to destroy Israel.

Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0#)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 21, 2011, 07:55:22 PM
You are harping on this 9 mile wide thing like perhaps Israel truly was the aggressor in the 67 war. They seemed happy with the nine miles beforehand.

Yea, BEFORE THEY WERE ATTACKED....Before the surrounding Arab nations attempted to remove Israel from their location.  THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE THEM NOW....AS A DEFENSIVE POSITION.  They weren't "stolen"


There are two things which aren't up for debate, sirs, and everyone knows it whether they openly admit it or not. One: Whoever represents the Palestinians has to recognize Israel's right to exist. Two: A Palestinian state will be drawn on the pre '67 borders plus land swaps.

Actually, there are 3 things, 1 of which is the IF, I'm referring to.  Now, are any of you 3 ready to put some substance to your rhetoric and address that, or is this all just alot of blather, that will not go anywhere, and peace is simply a pipedream??


Sirs

Here is a history of Israel in maps. Perhaps it will prove to be enlightening.

Perhaps, you'll address the point being made.  Still waiting for you to address the IF part.  Can I expect a serious response to that, or no?

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 21, 2011, 07:57:13 PM
SIRS.....watch this to better understand how Obozo is attempting to destroy Israel.

Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0#)

Enlightening, isn't it.  Just as much as messers Bt, BsB, and Xo are at not dealing with the gorilla in the room.  There will be no pre-67 borders without addressing the IF, I've been referring to.  Simple as that
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 21, 2011, 08:17:46 PM
Israel should never give an inch.
The IslamoNazis will never say "oh ok now we can be peaceful with you".
I am afraid if Obozo tries to force Israel into a dangerous position.
Before accepting their fate, Israel would nuke Iran to set an example.
So in effect Obozo would be forcing Israel into striking first.
Of course I wish they'do both....dont give an inch to those that want to destroy you anyway & nuke Iran.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 21, 2011, 08:19:13 PM
(WASHINGTON) - Congressman Allen West (FL-22) released this statement today:

"Today's endorsement by President Barack Obama of the creation of a Hamas-led Palestinian state based on the pre-1967 borders, signals the most egregious foreign policy decision his administration has made to date, and could be the beginning of the end as we know it for the Jewish state.

From the moment the modern day state of Israel declared statehood in 1948, to the end of the 1967 Six Day War, Jews were forbidden access to their holiest site, the Western Wall in Jerusalem?s Old City, controlled by Jordan's Arab army.

The pre-1967 borders endorsed by President Obama would deny millions of the world's Jews access to their holiest site and force Israel to return the strategically important Golan Heights to Syria, a known state-sponsor of terrorism.

Resorting to the pre-1967 borders would mean a full withdrawal by the Israelis from the West Bank and the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem.  Make no mistake, there has always been a Nation of Israel and Jerusalem has been and must always be recognized as its rightful capital.

In short, the Hamas-run Palestinian state envisioned by President Obama would be devastating to Israel and the world's 13.3 million Jews. It would be a Pavlovian style reward to a declared Islamic terrorist organization, and an unacceptable policy initiative.

America should never negotiate with the Palestinian Authority- which has aligned itself with Hamas. Palestine is a region, not a people or a modern state. Based upon Roman Emperor Hadrian's declaration in 73 AD, the original Palestinian people are the Jewish people.

It's time for the American people to stand by our strongest ally, the Jewish State of Israel, and reject this foreign policy blunder of epic proportions.

While the winds of democracy may blow strong in the Middle East, history has demonstrated that gaps in leadership can lead to despotic regimes.  I have questions for President Obama:  "Who will now lead in Egypt"? and "Why should American taxpayers provide foreign aid to a nation where the next chapter in their history may be the emergence of another radical Islamic state"?

President Obama has not stood for Israel or the Jewish people and has made it clear where the United States will stand when Palestine attempts to gain recognition of  statehood by the United Nations.  The President should  focus on the real obstacle to security- the Palestinian leadership and its ultimate goal to eliminate Israel and the Jewish people.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 21, 2011, 09:22:57 PM
Quote
Perhaps, you'll address the point being made.  Still waiting for you to address the IF part.  Can I expect a serious response to that, or no?

I have addressed that point for years. I am on record saying that if a two state peace is achieved any violation of said peace will result in a full nuclear attack by both the US and the Russians on all parties involved.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 21, 2011, 09:51:58 PM
Upon further review.

Apparently Israel does indeed relinquish the Golan Heights as part of a return to the '67 borders and the formation of a Palestinian State.

On the IF factor: A) The Israeli Army, if they're as tough as they claim to be, doesn't need to fight from the high ground, aka the Golan Heights. B) Judaism should adopt the Buddhist understanding of impermanence. As in, we all are impermanent so don't get overly attached to life. 

Henny, maybe you could weigh in on this?

BSB

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 22, 2011, 12:18:29 AM
Here is a history of Israel in maps. Perhaps it will prove to be enlightening.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/ (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/)

Pretty good , what borders has Isreal ever had that were not merely the ceasefire lines of the previous war or lines placed on a map by persons in power centers thousancs of miles away?

There is nothing special about the lines as they were in 67 as far as I can tell, those lines didn't cause a peacefull situation when they were current and lines earlyer than that were equally failures at produceing satisfaction whether they were more or less generous.

I think moving these lines will be disruptive , but not productive, no matter where these lines land the underlyeing problems remain, no place the lines could be drawn do much about that.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 04:25:36 AM
Quote
Perhaps, you'll address the point being made.  Still waiting for you to address the IF part.  Can I expect a serious response to that, or no?

I have addressed that point for years. I am on record saying that if a two state peace is achieved any violation of said peace will result in a full nuclear attack by both the US and the Russians on all parties involved.

Strange how I've never actually heard that before, in any of the years you may be referencing.  Perhaps it simply got missed.  You seriously advocating nuclear Armageddon?  Please, what are these conditions of violation that warrants this response??  That sure is far more than I'd ever advocate.  "All" parties, hmmmm.  So, Hezbollah, backed by Syria & Iran equipment, launch hundreds of rockets into the New Israel, and we........take out Lebanon with some nukes??  Just trying to find some serious clarity here


Upon further review.  Apparently Israel does indeed relinquish the Golan Heights as part of a return to the '67 borders and the formation of a Palestinian State.

WHAT's this you say?  Can't be.  I mean sirs said it, so it just can't be   8)


On the IF factor: A) The Israeli Army, if they're as tough as they claim to be, doesn't need to fight from the high ground, aka the Golan Heights. B) Judaism should adopt the Buddhist understanding of impermanence. As in, we all are impermanent so don't get overly attached to life. 

Ummmm.....thanks for the non-answer.  Keep working on that pipedream I suppose
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Religious Dick on May 22, 2011, 04:32:06 AM
Government Official Who Makes Perfectly Valid, Well-Reasoned Point Against Israel Forced To Resign
MAY 20, 2011 | ISSUE 47?20

WASHINGTON?State Department diplomat Nelson Milstrand, who appeared on CNN last week and offered an informed, thoughtful analysis implying that Israel could perhaps exercise more restraint toward Palestinian moderates in disputed territories, was asked to resign Tuesday. ?The United States deeply regrets any harm Mr. Milstrand?s careful, even-tempered, and factually accurate remarks may have caused our democratic partner in the Middle East,? Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in an unequivocal condemnation of the veteran foreign-service officer?s perfectly reasonable statements. ?U.S. policy toward Israel continues to be one of unconditional support and fawning sycophancy.? Milstrand, 63, will reportedly appear at an AIPAC conference to offer a full apology as soon as his trial concludes and his divorce is finalized.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/government-official-who-makes-perfectly-valid-well,20499/ (http://www.theonion.com/articles/government-official-who-makes-perfectly-valid-well,20499/)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 22, 2011, 05:00:23 AM
plane: "underlying problems"

The underlying problem being that because of the suffering and pain the Jews went through, they were given land that didn't belong to them, causing pain and suffering to others?

We should move Israel to southwest Texas, they can build a big wall along the border with Mexico, fight the drug cartels, and feel right at home.  That way we solve part of the illegal human trafficking that goes on along our border, the Texas Christians can have the rapture, or whatever they think is going to happen, right in their own state, and the Palestinian can have Jerusalem all to themselves.


BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 22, 2011, 05:06:00 AM
sirs: "sirs said it"

I was correcting what I said. I pay no attention to what you say.

BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 22, 2011, 09:05:46 AM
As SIRS so artfully posted...one of these guys is trying "to throw Israel under the Bus"

Go figure which one......  ::)

(http://www.lucianne.com/images/lucianne/DailyPhoto/2011-05-22-WOAJZ.jpg)

BiBi Netanyahu and Barry Soetoro in their early twenties
 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 22, 2011, 10:14:53 AM
plane: "underlying problems"

The underlying problem being that because of the suffering and pain the Jews went through, they were given land that didn't belong to them, causing pain and suffering to others?

We should move Israel to southwest Texas, they can build a big wall along the border with Mexico, fight the drug cartels, and feel right at home.  That way we solve part of the illegal human trafficking that goes on along our border, the Texas Christians can have the rapture, or whatever they think is going to happen, right in their own state, and the Palestinian can have Jerusalem all to themselves.


BSB

There are a lot of underling problems , but what sort of them , what subset of them , would moving the border correct?

For a lot of reasons ,which are so rooted in the past that they are inaccessible to change, two sets of people claim rights on the same spot .

If some other spot would do just as well, the problem would be simple, but a lot of them would rather die.

If one set agreed to convert into the other set (they can) or both sets converted en mass to a third type , the problem would be solved, but a lot of them would rather die than convert.

If both of these sets of people simultaneously decided that they trusted and respected the other , solving the problems would become trivial, but they have died in the attempt too often for this to be easily done.

I have thought of solutions which might work, but in all humility none of them are so good that I am sure that they would work , and none of them absolutely avoid bloodshed either.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 11:09:56 AM
sirs: "sirs said it"

I was correcting what I said. I pay no attention to what you say.

BSB

At your own peril........case in point

Sirs
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 22, 2011, 02:02:26 PM
The Golan is not and never has been a part of Palestine. The Palestinians do not claim it. The Israelis acknowledge that it was taken from Syria, and claim they get to keep it because it gives Syria an advantage over Israel.

God has never identified the Golan as part of Israel, either.Of course, it was not as great a danger when fighting was done with chariots and spears.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 02:47:58 PM
Quote
Strange how I've never actually heard that before, in any of the years you may be referencing.  Perhaps it simply got missed.  You seriously advocating nuclear Armageddon?


http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/the-dubai-killing-floored-iran/msg96081/#msg96081 (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/the-dubai-killing-floored-iran/msg96081/#msg96081)

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 02:54:18 PM
ok, one little reference, that could easily have been taken as tongue and cheek, does not a position make.

So, let's get back the the direct questions posed, if you don't mind:

You seriously advocating nuclear Armageddon? 

Please, what are these conditions of violation that  would warrant this response?? 

So, if Hezbollah, backed by Syria & Iran equipment, launch hundreds of rockets into the New Israel, from their new positions in the Golan Heights, we........take out Lebanon with some nukes??
 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 22, 2011, 03:15:07 PM
Armageddon is presumably unavoidable. It is predicted in the Holy Writ. To a believer, it cannot be avoided.

However, it is described as two armies coming together on a battlefield. This is not a nuclear confrontation, as there would be no survivors it it were. Two armies of dead and dying corpses that glow in the dark would make a good adventure flick, but they would not satisfy the predictions of the Book of Revelation.

The fact is that the technology of all possible armies has outpaced the prophesies. You might as well describe legions of men mounted on pterodactyls, or hordes of orcs. What is described in Revelation is just the stuff of fantasy.

The Fundies want all the Jews to move to Israel (how likely is that?) where the "good" ones will be converted and the rest sent off to Satan. And the Israelis use this sophomoric belief to their own advantage, as it gets then aid and support.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 03:16:13 PM
ok, one little reference, that could easily have been taken as tongue and cheek, does not a position make.

http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/iran-could-have-nuclear-bomb-in-three-years/msg23232/#msg23232 (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/iran-could-have-nuclear-bomb-in-three-years/msg23232/#msg23232)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 03:34:33 PM
STILL WAITING......Debate forurm.......questions posed.......still waiting for responses to those specific questions       :-\
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 03:41:53 PM
STILL WAITING......Debate forurm.......questions posed.......still waiting for responses to those specific questions       :-\

Does that apply just to everyone else but you?

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 03:48:00 PM
Is that a deflection?  Sure didn't seem like any answers to the questions posed.  Shall I repost them for clarity?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 04:08:25 PM
Is that a deflection?  Sure didn't seem like any answers to the questions posed.  Shall I repost them for clarity?

Actually it is establishing my acceptance of the glass parking lot option going years back.

in response to this:

Quote
ok, one little reference, that could easily have been taken as tongue and cheek, does not a position make.

First things first.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 04:12:06 PM
...on to the 2nd (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124841/#msg124841)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 22, 2011, 04:26:57 PM
SIRS.....I would let it lie.
If you haven't noticed all three of them settled (threw in the towel)
with basically nonsensical answers to the problem yesterday.
No need to rub it in ;)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 05:01:24 PM
CU

Why is the glass parking lot solution nonsensical?

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 05:12:30 PM
ok, one little reference, that could easily have been taken as tongue and cheek, does not a position make.

So, let's get back the the direct questions posed, if you don't mind:

You seriously advocating nuclear Armageddon? 

Please, what are these conditions of violation that  would warrant this response?? 

So, if Hezbollah, backed by Syria & Iran equipment, launch hundreds of rockets into the New Israel, from their new positions in the Golan Heights, we........take out Lebanon with some nukes??


So you concede that i have been supporting the glass parking lot solution for years.

So on to the rest of your queries though a careful reading of what i posted in this thread seems clear enough.

Let's review what i posted.


I have addressed that point for years. I am on record saying that if a two state peace is achieved any violation of said peace will result in a full nuclear attack by both the US and the Russians on all parties involved.

And then your queries:

Quote
You seriously advocating nuclear Armageddon?

Yes

Quote
Please, what are these conditions of violation that  would warrant this response?? 

any violation of said peace

So, if Hezbollah, backed by Syria & Iran equipment, launch hundreds of rockets into the New Israel, from their new positions in the Golan Heights, we........take out Lebanon with some nukes?? [/b]

we take out all parties involved.

Yeah i think all that was covered in the original statement




Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 05:51:21 PM
Quote
Please, what are these conditions of violation that  would warrant this response?? 

any violation of said peace

So, if Hezbollah, backed by Syria & Iran equipment, launch hundreds of rockets into the New Israel, from their new positions in the Golan Heights, we........take out Lebanon with some nukes??

we take out all parties involved.

Yeah i think all that was covered in the original statement


"All parties", meaning those who initiated the attacks?.......and what of those that backed them?  Nukes, even tactical ones, have a pretty wide latitude of destruction & death.  So, Lebanon becomes a glass parking lot under your peace plan, in the event of the 1st attack upon the New Israel, from some point within the Golan or West Bank?




SIRS.....I would let it lie.
If you haven't noticed all three of them settled (threw in the towel)
with basically nonsensical answers to the problem yesterday.
No need to rub it in ;)

You make a compelling arguement, C
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 06:18:56 PM
Quote
"All parties", meaning those who initiated the attacks?.......and what of those that backed them?  Nukes, even tactical ones, have a pretty wide latitude of destruction & death.  So, Lebanon becomes a glass parking lot under your peace plan, in the event of the 1st attack upon the New Israel, from some point within the Golan or West Bank?

All means all.

The attacked as well as the attackers and the backers of both sides.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 22, 2011, 06:27:46 PM
Just what was your question sirs? Some "if"? What if?

Look, we all live with "what ifs?". What if I get cancer tommorow? What if a bunch of nuts fly planes into the WTC? What's your point, sirs?

BSB 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 22, 2011, 07:28:41 PM
CU ....Why is the glass parking lot solution nonsensical?

#1. Last week you equated Israel with the Nazis. So why are you at all interested in any kind of deals?
      If you believe what you claim you do, why not call for just outright nuking Israel now?
      Would you have made deals with Hitler over Auschwitz?

#2. You are advocating killing millions of women and children by nuking entire areas because
        someone from Al-Qaeda, Hamas, or Hezbollah shoots an RPG across the border?
        I'm not quite sure if you really believe what you type or it's more a case of saying
        the outrageous out of frustration.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 22, 2011, 07:46:52 PM
Well if we are seriously considering a 100% kill of both sides as a final solution, perhaps I can submit for considerations idea only half so drastic.

Lets kidnap every child in the land .

We would not need to keep them , we would only transport them across the fences and plonk them down on the other side of every wall.

It might be hard to prevent rescues , but that would be a critical part of the plan, the children of one side are the hostages of the safety of the kids of the other side.

Both sides would have an intrest in maintaining good water and food supplies to the opposite side of the fence, both sides would loose motive to toss bombs and rockets randomly or specifically.

Every child would be returned after his 12th birthday, with one would hope , no harm done more than development of a strong Stockholm syndrome.

I know this is very drastic and ugly , but the situation as it is includes raising up children to treasure hatred above love and land above blood.  What plan is more drastic and ugly than this?

(http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/files/2007/05/mideast_lebanon_palestinian.jpg)

http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/2007/05/06/palestinian-children-reared-to-fight-and-die-for-a-free-palestine/ (http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/2007/05/06/palestinian-children-reared-to-fight-and-die-for-a-free-palestine/)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 08:01:30 PM
Just what was your question sirs? Some "if"? What if?

This IF (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124768/#msg124768)

Quote
"All parties", meaning those who initiated the attacks?.......and what of those that backed them?  Nukes, even tactical ones, have a pretty wide latitude of destruction & death.  So, Lebanon becomes a glass parking lot under your peace plan, in the event of the 1st attack upon the New Israel, from some point within the Golan or West Bank?

All means all.

The attacked as well as the attackers and the backers of both sides.

Well, that's pretty much a non-starter now, isn't it.  Israel can't defend, and some idiots with a martyrdom complex, have the perfect plan then to rid the region of Israel, by merely attacking them.  Bravo. 

Seriously, with as much as you, BsB, and Xo extoll the mandate that Israel go back to being far less defensive, none of you have any desire to address the 300lb gorilla in the room. 
Israel, you go back to pre-67 borders, with your country split in half. 
Palestinians, you get the lands Israel needed to defend itself,
and.....peace at last

Brilliant     :o      One can see why Bibi wasn't so keen on the idea, since no one wants to address the IF-factor seriously
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 08:23:08 PM
Well if we are seriously considering a 100% kill of both sides as a final solution, perhaps I can submit for considerations idea only half so drastic.

Lets kidnap every child in the land .

We would not need to keep them , we would only transport them across the fences and plonk them down on the other side of every wall.

It might be hard to prevent rescues , but that would be a critical part of the plan, the children of one side are the hostages of the safety of the kids of the other side.

Both sides would have an intrest in maintaining good water and food supplies to the opposite side of the fence, both sides would loose motive to toss bombs and rockets randomly or specifically.

Every child would be returned after his 12th birthday, with one would hope , no harm done more than development of a strong Stockholm syndrome.

I know this is very drastic and ugly , but the situation as it is includes raising up children to treasure hatred above love and land above blood.  What plan is more drastic and ugly than this?

(http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/files/2007/05/mideast_lebanon_palestinian.jpg)

http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/2007/05/06/palestinian-children-reared-to-fight-and-die-for-a-free-palestine/ (http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/2007/05/06/palestinian-children-reared-to-fight-and-die-for-a-free-palestine/)

Looks like plane gets it.

The idea is to change the mindset of the belligerents.

And the way you do that is make sure they have much more to lose by continuing the war than they do in making sure everyone keeps the peace.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 08:28:47 PM
Just what was your question sirs? Some "if"? What if?

This IF (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124768/#msg124768)

Quote
"All parties", meaning those who initiated the attacks?.......and what of those that backed them?  Nukes, even tactical ones, have a pretty wide latitude of destruction & death.  So, Lebanon becomes a glass parking lot under your peace plan, in the event of the 1st attack upon the New Israel, from some point within the Golan or West Bank?

All means all.

The attacked as well as the attackers and the backers of both sides.

Well, that's pretty much a non-starter now, isn't it.  Israel can't defend, and some idiots with a martyrdom complex, have the perfect plan then to rid the region of Israel, by merely attacking them.  Bravo. 


Why is it a non starter? All you are doing is predetermining what the consequences of breaking the peace are. Seems to me with that kind of motivation Hamas and Hezbollah would not be very welcome in Lebanon and Gaza.

How is this any different than Debka calling for nuke strikes against the Iranian Reactors?



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 22, 2011, 08:51:40 PM
Ok, I read your "if" sirs.

Sorry, no guarantees in life. Make a deal, don't make a deal. Find a way, don't find a way. Live with the consequences either way. The same applies to the other side. Step up to the plate, or don't. Live with the consequences either way.

Frankly, both sides may be overwhelmed by the world around them, and it will be on both that they didn't do what needed to be done. That's the way it goes. Ignore, don't fix, one problem, suddenly a second problem grows out of it, then a third, and so on. 

BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 11:30:09 PM
Quote
"All parties", meaning those who initiated the attacks?.......and what of those that backed them?  Nukes, even tactical ones, have a pretty wide latitude of destruction & death.  So, Lebanon becomes a glass parking lot under your peace plan, in the event of the 1st attack upon the New Israel, from some point within the Golan or West Bank?

All means all.

The attacked as well as the attackers and the backers of both sides.

Well, that's pretty much a non-starter now, isn't it.  Israel can't defend, and some idiots with a martyrdom complex, have the perfect plan then to rid the region of Israel, by merely attacking them.  Bravo.  

Why is it a non starter? All you are doing is predetermining what the consequences of breaking the peace are.

Oh I believe you.  Indeed, it would be a definative deterrent.  A nonstarter for 2 reasons. 
1) International community would never support/sanction any nuke strike in any Arab lands
2) As I already demonstrated, even IF you had the international community signing off on the idea of nuking everyone involved, plays right into some Hamas extremists, launching mulitple cooridinated attacks, be it car bombs and rocket barrages, from a nice lofty perch in the West Bank, knowing Israel would be turned into a glass parking lot....the ultimate suicide bomb




Ok, I read your "if" sirs.   Sorry, no guarantees in life. Make a deal, don't make a deal. Find a way, don't find a way. Live with the consequences either way. The same applies to the other side. Step up to the plate, or don't. Live with the consequences either way.

Well, since you can't come up with a satisfactory contingency for any parties, set on not keeping the peace, I see no reason-what-so-ever that Israel return any land.  Since, as you say, there are no guarantees, best Israel remain as safe as it can make itself
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 22, 2011, 11:42:38 PM
Quote
1) International community would never support/sanction any nuke strike in any Arab lands

Then don't ask for their permission.

2) As I already demonstrated, even IF you had the international community signing off on the idea of nuking everyone involved, plays right into some Hamas extremists, launching mulitple cooridinated attacks, be it car bombs and rocket barrages, from a nice lofty perch in the West Bank, knowing Israel would be turned into a glass parking lot....the ultimate suicide bomb

Either way problem solved. But you do realize The Palestinian state would also be glassed over. My guess is the govt would keep a close eye on those who have suicide in mind, and perhaps help them achieve that desired death before it creates an international incident.




Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 22, 2011, 11:55:13 PM
Quote
1) International community would never support/sanction any nuke strike in any Arab lands

Then don't ask for their permission.

LOL.....I'm actually trying to be serious here, in trying to iron out what has to be addressed if there is to be any peace, and you keep presenting positions that have a snowball's chance in hell, of seeing the light of day.  Unilateral nuking of Israel & Lebanon, in the event of an attack by Hamas from the West Bank & Hezbollah from the Golan??

Granted, my IF is likely not to be addressed either, as demonstrated by BsB, so we're back to square 1...Israel keeps everything they took, in defense of their very existance.  Period

 
Quote
2) As I already demonstrated, even IF you had the international community signing off on the idea of nuking everyone involved, plays right into some Hamas extremists, launching mulitple cooridinated attacks, be it car bombs and rocket barrages, from a nice lofty perch in the West Bank, knowing Israel would be turned into a glass parking lot....the ultimate suicide bomb

Either way problem solved. But you do realize The Palestinian state would also be glassed over. My guess is the govt would keep a close eye on those who have suicide in mind, and perhaps help them achieve that desired death before it creates an international incident.


Yea I do realize it.  Problem is, the likes of Hamas, and the more radical elements of Islamic terrorists, would see your peace plan as a sign from Allah, attack Israel, and it will cease to exist.  Sorry, not going to happen
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 12:53:46 AM
Quote
LOL.....I'm actually trying to be serious here, in trying to iron out what has to be addressed if there is to be any peace, and you keep presenting positions that have a snowball's chance in hell, of seeing the light of day.  Unilateral nuking of Israel & Lebanon, in the event of an attack by Hamas from the West Bank & Hezbollah from the Golan??

And what is unserious about defining the parameters for lasting peace. Remain peaceful and prosper or continue squabbling over sand and die.

If those terms are too harsh for you then we should simply annex Israel and make it the 51st state. Then their security would be the responsibility of the US government.

Either way, game over.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 01:09:12 AM
As I demonstrated, your "peace plan" is quite the gift from Allah, for those aformentioned Islamic radicals, bent on seeing the destruction of Israel, and launching attacks from those new coveted areas in the West Bank & Golan Heights, knowing Israel will cease to exist as a result of their actions

All that's missing is a big red bow
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 01:26:00 AM
As I demonstrated, your "peace plan" is quite the gift from Allah, for those aformentioned Islamic radicals, bent on seeing the destruction of Israel, and launching attacks from those new coveted areas in the West Bank & Golan Heights, knowing Israel will cease to exist as a result of their actions

All that's missing is a big red bow

And keeping post 67 lands will stop this how? You aren't offering any other viable solutions are you?


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 01:39:42 AM
Actually, that's what my inquiry was all about.  You, BsB, and Xo, keep claiming that Israel HAS to return to pre-67 borders, to bring about some "chance for peace".  If Israel isn't going to be provided a contingency for anyone daring to attack them from these lands in the West Bank & Golan Heights, why the hell should they give up prime defensive positions??

Land for a "promise of peace", has failed miserably.  Israel is still getting rockets rained on them from inside the borders of Gaza and Lebanon.  My viable solution has already been referenced.  Israel can go back to its pre-67 borders, WHEN there are CLEAR CUT REPERCUSSIONS, in writing, that will be enacted by messers U.S., and the International Community, upon ANYONE and any nation that dares to launch ANY attack upon the "new" Israel.  and I'm not referring to sanctions, either.  I sort have already mentioned this (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124758/#msg124758).  Surprised you missed it.

Get THAT in writing, then we can start to pull back the borders
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 01:59:48 AM
Actually, that's what my inquiry was all about.  You, BsB, and Xo, keep claiming that Israel HAS to return to pre-67 borders, to bring about some "chance for peace".  If Israel isn't going to be provided a contingency for anyone daring to attack them from these lands in the West Bank & Golan Heights, why the hell should they give up prime defensive positions??

Land for a "promise of peace", has failed miserably.  Israel is still getting rockets rained on them from inside the borders of Gaza and Lebanon.  My viable solution has already been referenced.  Israel can go back to its pre-67 borders, WHEN there are CLEAR CUT REPERCUSSIONS, in writing, that will be enacted by messers U.S., and the International Community, upon ANYONE and any nation that dares to launch ANY attack upon the "new" Israel.  and I'm not referring to sanctions, either.  I sort have already mentioned this (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124758/#msg124758).  Surprised you missed it.

Get THAT in writing, then we can start to pull back the borders

And nuking the peace breakers is not a clear cut repercussion?
And I'm not sure why Israel would get a pass if they decide to get mischievous.

And of course statehood accomplishes the same goal.

So what do your CLEAR CUT REPERCUSSIONS look like?



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: kimba1 on May 23, 2011, 02:21:13 AM
And I'm not sure why Israel would get a pass if they decide to get mischievous.


I don`t understand that also,n but it is interesting after all this time it`s not worst.I just don`t get it
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 02:34:51 AM
Actually, that's what my inquiry was all about.  You, BsB, and Xo, keep claiming that Israel HAS to return to pre-67 borders, to bring about some "chance for peace".  If Israel isn't going to be provided a contingency for anyone daring to attack them from these lands in the West Bank & Golan Heights, why the hell should they give up prime defensive positions??

Land for a "promise of peace", has failed miserably.  Israel is still getting rockets rained on them from inside the borders of Gaza and Lebanon.  My viable solution has already been referenced.  Israel can go back to its pre-67 borders, WHEN there are CLEAR CUT REPERCUSSIONS, in writing, that will be enacted by messers U.S., and the International Community, upon ANYONE and any nation that dares to launch ANY attack upon the "new" Israel.  and I'm not referring to sanctions, either.  I sort have already mentioned this (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124758/#msg124758).  Surprised you missed it.

Get THAT in writing, then we can start to pull back the borders

And nuking the peace breakers is not a clear cut repercussion?

I think I already addressed that, and how impossible a "peace plan" that would be, compared to the far more viable one I've been advocating


And I'm not sure why Israel would get a pass if they decide to get mischievous.

Who said they get a pass??.  I think I made it abundantly clear, IN WRITING, THE BORDERS ARE SET.  If there is a clear level of understanding as to what the military repercussions would be to anyone that dares to attack Israel, You're not going to see anything "mischievious".  But hell, that would be nothing to get in writing, as long as we got the FAR BIGGER gorilla in writing.


And of course statehood accomplishes the same goal.

No, not until the gorilla is dealt with


So what do your CLEAR CUT REPERCUSSIONS look like?

That was my inquiry.  You went above and beyond with your nuking.  No, not for me.  I target command and control locations, thru-out the region.  Take out communications, and anything that has wheels, not to mention machine guns or rocket launchers in the back of those vehicles.  That's just a start, but the repercussions have to have teeth, for them to be a substantive enough deterrent for Israel to even consider going back to pre-67 borders
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 03:05:07 AM
Quote
That was my inquiry.  You went above and beyond with your nuking.  No, not for me.  I target command and control locations, thru-out the region.  Take out communications, and anything that has wheels, not to mention machine guns or rocket launchers in the back of those vehicles.  That's just a start, but the repercussions have to have teeth, for them to be a substantive enough deterrent for Israel to even consider going back to pre-67 borders

And who will do this enforcing?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 23, 2011, 03:23:42 AM
Frankly I don't care anymore what Israel or the Palestinians do. We've been around this block too many times. They've cost the world, and themselves, way too much already. My inclination is for us to make other plans. Move on.

BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 03:32:45 AM
Frankly I don't care anymore what Israel or the Palestinians do. We've been around this block too many times. They've cost the world, and themselves, way too much already. My inclination is for us to make other plans. Move on.

BSB

Cool, then we won't need to see any more American pushing of Israel to relinquish any of its lands, since that would be us trying to push plans upon them.  Let them make their own, as B is advocating


Quote
That was my inquiry.  You went above and beyond with your nuking.  No, not for me.  I target command and control locations, thru-out the region.  Take out communications, and anything that has wheels, not to mention machine guns or rocket launchers in the back of those vehicles.  That's just a start, but the repercussions have to have teeth, for them to be a substantive enough deterrent for Israel to even consider going back to pre-67 borders

And who will do this enforcing?

Who's doing your nuking?  I could go with a NATO task force designed specifically for this contingency
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: kimba1 on May 23, 2011, 04:19:26 AM
hmm
if nukes get involved. I think both parties may get attacked .I say both to finally end it.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 23, 2011, 07:42:21 AM
If Palestine or Israel would be nuked, it would render the entire area uninhabitable. Nukes are not any sort of option for neighboring states to employ.
The UN Charter demands that conquered territories be negotiated or returned.

Indonesia cannot keep East Timor. Israel cannot keep the West Bank or Golan without mutually acceptable agreement.

The current situation is not tenable. Palestinians reproduce faster than Israelis. Eventually they win the election and bye-bye Jewish State.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 10:15:06 AM
Quote
Who's doing your nuking?
Russia and the US , as previously  (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124793/#msg124793)stated.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: kimba1 on May 23, 2011, 10:26:11 AM
interesting
 2 unlikeable groups of people refusing to get along and causing damage to suurounding countries are refusing to stop such action.

did something recently happen to push for peace more agressively?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 23, 2011, 11:01:18 AM
I don't think the US would agree to nuke anyone for failure to abide by an agreement. Probably the Russians would refuse to do this as well.

By this is a modified version of the plot to "The Forbin Project" : "This is the voice of mission control..."
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: kimba1 on May 23, 2011, 11:37:23 AM
oops said it wrong.

not saying world will nuke them but will take action otherwise. looks like a wall has been hit for all this
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 23, 2011, 02:23:42 PM
looks like a wall has been hill for all this

===========================
I do not understand what you mean here, kimba.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 02:35:35 PM
Quote
Who's doing your nuking?
Russia and the US , as previously stated.

Not that they'd agree, in this reality, but ok.  Again, my idea has far more viability than yours, it appears.  But I suppose I'm trying to be more serious on trying to deal with the problem, compared to the non-starters you, BsB, and Xo keep pushing
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: kimba1 on May 23, 2011, 02:46:11 PM
hit

big clumsy fingers strike again.

goodthing I work in a law firm,lots of bad typers here to make the support staff worth their weight in gold
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 03:05:12 PM
Quote
Again, my idea has far more viability than yours, it appears.

Of course it is. Look how Nato is cooperating concerning Libya.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 03:17:50 PM
LOL...I didn't say cakewalk, just more viable than getting U.S. & Russia to jointly nuke Israel & Lebanon, or Israel & Syria.  Nor did I say it had to be Nato, just that I wouldn't have a problem if they were the folks being placed with the responsibility of enforcing the repercussions

Like I said, I'm actually trying to come up with serious solutions, not keep spouting non-starters
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 03:20:47 PM
LOL...I didn't say cakewalk, just more viable than getting U.S. & Russia to jointly nuke Israel & Lebanon, or Israel & Syria.  Nor did I say it had to be Nato, just that I wouldn't have a problem if they were the folks being placed with the responsibility of enforcing the repercussions

Like I said, I'm actually trying to come up with serious solutions, not keep spouting non-starters


Looks like you are just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Try to come up with a definitive proposal. Take a risk.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 23, 2011, 03:23:55 PM
It would be easier just to disarm Israel, Palestine and all the neighbors than to get them to agree to being nuked.

Not easy, just easier.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 03:26:53 PM
LOL...I didn't say cakewalk, just more viable than getting U.S. & Russia to jointly nuke Israel & Lebanon, or Israel & Syria.  Nor did I say it had to be Nato, just that I wouldn't have a problem if they were the folks being placed with the responsibility of enforcing the repercussions

Like I said, I'm actually trying to come up with serious solutions, not keep spouting non-starters

Looks like you are just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Try to come up with a definitive proposal. Take a risk.

Stuff that has far more viability at sticking, than what you have in your hands.  In case you missed it, I HAVE BEEN facilitating proposals.  Your definition of "take a risk" apparently mandates non-starters, so what's the point??
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 03:30:47 PM
I don't see why it would be more difficult to get Russia and the US to agree that enforcing the peace in Pal-Israeli than it would be to get all the members of Nato to agree to the same thing. In fact it might be easier. Certainly would be cheaper.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 03:39:11 PM
Because your "peace plan" requires the non-starter nuking of entire regions, as repercussions.  Mine doesn't.  that's why
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 23, 2011, 03:39:41 PM
I like the idea of disarming Palisrael, then having the Dutch come in for a spell to run the entire place while dumping the Golan into the Mediterranean to form polders (as the Dutch have built in the Zeider Zee), which would then be a second country.

Then in some way, one country gets the new land and a bunch of money, and the other gets the old country, less the money.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 03:49:38 PM
I think yours is far more viable than Bt's nuke plan....problem is you'll never get a country, especially Israel, to "lay down their arms", and allow someone else to try and protect them.  I don't think any sovereign country, outside of complete economic collapse, or the losers of a war, would allow that
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: kimba1 on May 23, 2011, 05:40:20 PM
how sad

I`m trying to imagine them releasing control, I`m not kidding  It`s not working. is it a racial thing or  are THEY  that f##KED UP
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 23, 2011, 06:05:57 PM
They are seriously f@¬Ęked up, and have been so since allegedly God deeded them the place. Presumably Jacob lived in Canaan, and his next to last son Joseph was sold into slavery to an Egyptian, became prime minister, and then invited all his kinfolk in when there was a big drought. He was either a really good CEO, prophetic, or perhaps both.

 Then somehow (the Bible is silent on this) the Hebrews were enslaved, and Moses (who had an Egyptian name and was some sort of Egyptian prince, despite being a Hebrew because of rivers and baskets) organized them and they left, with God's help, and after 40 years ended up back in Canaan (where else is there after one leaves Egypt?).

Costa Rica gave up its army in 1948, Andorra never had one. Militaries have been the bane of the Middle East since independence.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 23, 2011, 06:21:45 PM
     Nuclear Wepons require credability, people who don't believe that the bombs owner has the crazyness and fortitude to attack with the bomb carry on as if it was not there.

     I think that Isrelis and Palistinians already have demonstrated the crazyness and fortitude required to ignore a nuclear threat, after all Isreal has had its own bomb (probly) for twenty years , even if they can only build one a year they have enough by now to ruin all their neighbors.

      Want to talk about my idea?
   Lets hold a hearing in public where all of the concerned parties are tried on the charge of being bad parents, then whit the evidence examined and ruled upon a large UN force rolls up every child of vunerable age. After a stabilizeing period with the children in protective custody they are all returned to responsible parents , not their own , parents of the opposite faction. Parents who cannot demonstrate good parenting skills don't even get that.

     Yes this is a tough and ugly and unlikely idea , it is only better than killing them all.

   Or perhaps , waiting for them to all kill each other.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 23, 2011, 06:23:11 PM
They are seriously f@¬Ęked up, and have been so since allegedly God deeded them the place. Presumably Jacob lived in Canaan, and his next to last son Joseph was sold into slavery to an Egyptian, became prime minister, and then invited all his kinfolk in when there was a big drought. He was either a really good CEO, prophetic, or perhaps both.

 Then somehow (the Bible is silent on this) the Hebrews were enslaved, and Moses (who had an Egyptian name and was some sort of Egyptian prince, despite being a Hebrew because of rivers and baskets) organized them and they left, with God's help, and after 40 years ended up back in Canaan (where else is there after one leaves Egypt?).

Costa Rica gave up its army in 1948, Andorra never had one. Militaries have been the bane of the Middle East since independence.
  Tibet could have used a stronger Army , too late now , the takeing of Tibet is a feint accompli even though it occured pretty recently.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 06:58:30 PM
      Want to talk about my idea?
   Lets hold a hearing in public where all of the concerned parties are tried on the charge of being bad parents, then whit the evidence examined and ruled upon a large UN force rolls up every child of vunerable age. After a stabilizeing period with the children in protective custody they are all returned to responsible parents , not their own , parents of the opposite faction. Parents who cannot demonstrate good parenting skills don't even get that.

     Yes this is a tough and ugly and unlikely idea , it is only better than killing them all.

I like it, as inpractical and impossible as it is, I do like it.  Far better than the nuke notion


   Or perhaps , waiting for them to all kill each other.

That's likely, and tragically, more viable    :'(
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 07:54:07 PM
Because your "peace plan" requires the non-starter nuking of entire regions, as repercussions.  Mine doesn't.  that's why

Does that make you an incrementalist?
Kill folks a little at a time?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 07:59:32 PM
Only if my goal was to eventually kill as many people as I can.  Since I'm not advocating killing anyone, outside of terrorists and those trying to sabotage the peace process, not sure how you can even entertain the notion of incrementalism.  Actually I do, its a perverted (if not deflective) effort to undermine my serious idea(s) at addressing the problems in the ME, while we ignore your nuking the region peace plan
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 08:48:50 PM
Only if my goal was to eventually kill as many people as I can.  Since I'm not advocating killing anyone, outside of terrorists and those trying to sabotage the peace process, not sure how you can even entertain the notion of incrementalism.  Actually I do, its a perverted (if not deflective) effort to undermine my serious idea(s) at addressing the problems in the ME, while we ignore your nuking the region peace plan

The goal is peace in the region.

Your solution is the equivalent of a time out.

Mine is the equivalent of a zero tolerance expulsion.

Which do you think gets their attention?

And isn't that the goal, get their attention and change their behavior?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 09:01:54 PM
Only if my goal was to eventually kill as many people as I can.  Since I'm not advocating killing anyone, outside of terrorists and those trying to sabotage the peace process, not sure how you can even entertain the notion of incrementalism.  Actually I do, its a perverted (if not deflective) effort to undermine my serious idea(s) at addressing the problems in the ME, while we ignore your nuking the region peace plan

The goal is peace in the region.

And your proclamation that Israel go back to its 67borders, while not addressing the enemy surrounding it, is guaranteed to bring on FAR MORE DEATH and war, than mine

Not to mention the exponential death involved in your "peace plan"


Your solution is the equivalent of a time out.


Not at all.  It's a "hey, this is what's going to happen IF......."


Mine is the equivalent of a zero tolerance expulsion.

NOT TO MENTION A NON-STARTER

Let me give you a hint of a starter:
- Hamas MUST remove from its charter death of Israel
- in Writing, the surrounding Arab nations, including the Palestinians, as run by Hamas, MUST acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, right where it is

From that point:
Israel will move back to its 67borders...IF....in writing, there are clear repercussions to befall any organization and/or nation that dares to launch ANY attack on the new Israel and its 67borders

Repercussions can include military attacks upon any and/or all CnC centers, any and/or all communication centers, and any/or all vehicles with wheels.  Repercussions to be swift and total
 

Which do you think gets their attention?

The one that is FAR MORE VIABLE


And isn't that the goal, get their attention and change their behavior?

Reality does play a part in this
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: kimba1 on May 23, 2011, 09:06:55 PM
tell me if this wrong, nuking them is not a peace plan,but a self defense situation. these action are not exactly self-contain
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 09:09:15 PM
You'd have to ask Bt.....its his "Peace plan" that includes the potential of turning the entire region into a glass parking lot
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 09:14:29 PM
Quote
And your proclamation that Israel go back to its 67borders

That was not my proposal, nor my prediction. Perhaps you can show the class where i said that.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 23, 2011, 09:21:13 PM
   I can hardly imagine either of these sides being willing to settle for anything less that full ownership of Jeruselem.

    This and a cupple of other points are more important to the participants than peace is.

    From our POV peace is the cheif goal , but there are plenty that would put peace secandary to other goals , enough in number to matter .
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 09:56:01 PM
Quote
And your proclamation that Israel go back to its 67borders

That was not my proposal, nor my prediction. Perhaps you can show the class where i said that.

It was your concurring, in this thread alone, with BsB, here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124762/#msg124762), here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124770/#msg124770), and your "historical map" here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124784/#msg124784)

You were very clear in your agreement with BsB, in the requirement that Israel must return to its 67borders, not to mention that I never claimed it was your prediction
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 10:18:22 PM
Quote
And your proclamation that Israel go back to its 67borders

That was not my proposal, nor my prediction. Perhaps you can show the class where i said that.

It was your concurring, in this thread alone, with BsB, here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124762/#msg124762), here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124770/#msg124770), and your "historical map" here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124784/#msg124784)

You were very clear in your agreement with BsB, in the requirement that Israel must return to its 67borders, not to mention that I never claimed it was your prediction

This was what i had to say about the matter.

Quote
I think the final deal is already set. Be interesting to see what Hollywood has to say. If they don't go ballistic, my guess is that Israel will keep the most important land gains from 67 and in the spirit of peace give back the rest.

Bsb said     
Quote
The '67 boarders plus land swaps is where everyone knows it has to end up.
Please note the bolded part.


I said I agree as far as the Palestinians go. I doubt the Golan Heights will be part of the discussion as that deals with Syria.
Wouldn't it be ironic to see Palestinian bulldozers knocking down some Israeli settlement houses in the disputed territories.


Don't see that as saying the borders had to go back to pre-67. In fact you might recall in the thread with Henny about the GCC i questioned why that was so important to the Arabs.

I have no idea why you would think your second two links would bolster your case.



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 10:23:00 PM
Quote
And your proclamation that Israel go back to its 67borders

That was not my proposal, nor my prediction. Perhaps you can show the class where i said that.

It was your concurring, in this thread alone, with BsB, here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124762/#msg124762), here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124770/#msg124770), and your "historical map" here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124784/#msg124784)

You were very clear in your agreement with BsB, in the requirement that Israel must return to its 67borders, not to mention that I never claimed it was your prediction

This was what i had to say about the matter.

And that's the reference to your support/proclamation of Israel going back to the 67 borders     ::)



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 10:26:06 PM
Can you read?

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 23, 2011, 10:27:42 PM
There is that whirlpool again.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 10:33:27 PM
There is that whirlpool again.

I don't know about you, but i just don't see where Sirs has proven his misrepresentation of my position.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 10:39:20 PM
lol....oh the irony
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 23, 2011, 11:09:52 PM
BSB "The '67 borders plus land swaps is where everyone knows it has to end up"

BT "I agree as far as the Palestinians go"

It appeared to me you were at least somewhat favoring a return to the '67 borders.
But here we are again.......what is BT's specific position on the question?
From BT's postings......does he? or doesn't he?

So gosh...lets just ask the simple question....

Do you BT support or not support returning to the '67 borders?

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 23, 2011, 11:17:01 PM
There is that whirlpool again.

I don't know about you, but i just don't see where Sirs has proven his misrepresentation of my position.

  To prove a misrep....


   Now don't invite me in!
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 23, 2011, 11:20:25 PM
Besides the clarity on the 67borders, I'd sure like to see his, and others addressing of my starters vs their nuclear non-starters, that I referenced here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg124995/#msg124995)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 23, 2011, 11:32:38 PM
The 67 borders aren't great, I daresay that hardly anyone involved would feel complete satisfaction with the 67 border.

As a starting point from which a process of auction would  move the line twards a better shape is what President Obama is really talking about.

I don't agree with any form of the two state solution , it bears no advantage on the present aparthied , why make a painfull change that makes no real diffrence?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 11:37:21 PM
There is that whirlpool again.

I don't know about you, but i just don't see where Sirs has proven his misrepresentation of my position.

  To prove a misrep....


   Now don't invite me in!

I just did.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 23, 2011, 11:40:36 PM
BSB "The '67 borders plus land swaps is where everyone knows it has to end up"

BT "I agree as far as the Palestinians go"

It appeared to me you were at least somewhat favoring a return to the '67 borders.
But here we are again.......what is BT's specific position on the question?
From BT's postings......does he? or doesn't he?

So gosh...lets just ask the simple question....

Do you BT support or not support returning to the '67 borders?


Welll gosh Mark. What part of this is ambiguous?

Quote
I think the final deal is already set. Be interesting to see what Hollywood has to say. If they don't go ballistic, my guess is that Israel will keep the most important land gains from 67 and in the spirit of peace give back the rest.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 24, 2011, 12:19:42 AM
Welll gosh Mark. What part of this is ambiguous?

mark?
anyway....
i see you talking about Hollywood and what your guess is as to what Israel might do...
But what does BT think should be done?
Enough of what you think others may or may not do...
Does BT support or not support returning to the '67 Borders?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 12:35:45 AM
BT thinks that Israel will keep the most important land gains from 67 and in the spirit of peace give back the rest.

Now if BT thinks that Israel will keep the most important lands gains from 1967 that kinda indicates that he doesn't think that Israel will roll back to pre-67.

Other than that he really doesn't give a damn other than once they do agree to peace it should be enforced by the nose of a nuke.

But it is interesting that you don't know my position, yet sirs is dead certain i'm all for a roll back.

How can two different people who both have read this thread come to such different conclusions.

And the Mark thing. .....Sooner or later we will open the new site, my guess is if you invite Facebook friends they know who you are anyway. And wasn't that your idea to begin with?




Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 12:42:09 AM
That wasn't the question now, was it.  What's BT proclaiming should happen...NOT predict, but you being in charge, you'd proclaim that...........

Don't tell me you're sticking with the non-starting, nonviable nuclear peace plan
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 12:45:52 AM
Quote
Don't tell me you're sticking with the non-starting, nonviable nuclear peace plan


umm i just did.

Quote
Other than that he really doesn't give a damn other than once they do agree to peace it should be enforced by the nose of a nuke.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 12:47:39 AM
That wasn't the question now, was it.  What's BT proclaiming should happen...NOT predict, but you being in charge, you'd proclaim that...........


You have already stated what my position is. Are you now not so certain?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 01:00:42 AM
Boy, I'll have to start calling you the Dodge master.  But at least you're now on record as pushing a peace plan that has not a snowball's chance in hell of occuring, or even be considered.  And here I thought you wanted to be serious about wanting peace in the region      :-\
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 01:06:38 AM
I have been on record with that approach to enforcement of the peace for years.

We have been over this already.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 01:31:57 AM
And a non-starter to boot.  I guess I'll focus on debating folks, on this topic, who are actually serious about trying to fashion a peace between Israel and its Arab enemies...I mean neighbors
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 01:51:04 AM
And a non-starter to boot.  I guess I'll focus on debating folks, on this topic, who are actually serious about trying to fashion a peace between Israel and its Arab enemies...I mean neighbors

Doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not, what matters is your characterization that i wasn't on record with this approach before. Just simply correcting your misrepresentation, once again.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 01:57:51 AM
It's not a matter of "agree", its a matter of reality.  There will never be a scenario where the U.S. would nuke Israel, facilitated by an attack on Israel

We now return to our regularly scheduled reality
Title: The Israeli Reality that Obama Doesn't Understand...
Post by: Henny on May 24, 2011, 04:48:19 AM
Coming straight from Haaretz... if only 15% of Israelis even know about the 22-state Arab Peace Initiative, how many of YOU knew about it?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Israeli reality that Obama doesn't understand

It's impossible to understand why a country and a people continue to refuse to do the right thing, something that could have been done a long while back.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-israeli-reality-that-obama-doesn-t-understand-1.363442 (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-israeli-reality-that-obama-doesn-t-understand-1.363442)
By Merav Michaeli

"President Obama doesn't understand the reality," according to "associates" of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who spoke after the meeting between the two leaders. And when that is the headline of the daily Yisrael Hayom, it is clearly Netanyahu's headline: "President Obama doesn't understand the reality."

You can't blame him: It really is impossible to understand this reality. It's impossible to understand why a country and a people continue to refuse to do the right thing, something that could have been done a long while back, and prefer to continue to bang their heads against the wall until blood flows, with absolutely no logic, literally amok, like someone who has gone insane. It's hard to understand a reality in which a prime minister sits and, contrary to all logic and every code of conduct, arrogantly lectures his host, the president of the United States. It's hard to understand a reality in which a day before their scheduled meeting, a prime minister responds to the speech of the U.S. president, who is about to host him, with an announcement that is as good as spitting in his face.

So President Obama, here is the reality: The reality is that in the prime minister's own reality show, he is "the leader of a persecuted people" and he likes being "the leader of a persecuted people." That is why no reality in the world has ever convinced our leaders to stop being a persecuted nation. Even Abe Foxman, the chairman of the Anti-Defamation League, who can't be accused of being a leftist, says that Obama's speech is not against Israel and is not bad for Israel and that it includes many things that are good for Israel, but that doesn't make any impression on Bibi Netanyahu and his friends.

But it's not only you, Mr. President. Nine years ago, the 22 Arab League countries submitted a proposal for ending the conflict with the Palestinians and for full normalization with them. The leaders of the people that insist on being persecuted chose not to confuse themselves with the fact that 22 Arab countries were recognizing Israel and accepting its right to exist in peace alongside them. That is why our leaders simply ignored it. To the point where barely 15 percent of the Israeli public is even aware of the existence of the Arab initiative. That is why on Thursday, when we, members of the Israeli peace initiative delegation, presented the Egyptian foreign minister with the initiative that for the first time responds to the Arab peace initiative, he rightly said: For nine years the initiative has been on the table. Now you remembered?

The reality, Mr. President, is that change - thanks to which you were elected, and in which you believe - is the thing that Israel in general and Netanyahu in particular fear most. The reality is that the State of Israel has become accustomed to the present situation and does not recognize itself without it. Israel has existed longer with the occupation than without it; it has existed for most of its years with no border and is deathly afraid of change.

The reality is that Netanyahu never wanted or thought to initiate change. When he was elected two years ago, he understood that in order not to initiate change, he would have to play at negotiations that lead nowhere. But alas, there was nobody in the White House who would play this nice little game with him, and his true colors were exposed: He wants settlements, he wants occupation, he wants the situation as it is and sees no problem with it. And now, Netanyahu prefers confrontation. Confrontation with you, confrontation with the Palestinians, confrontation with anyone he sees as coming out against the persecuted people. The reality is simply that confrontation we already know, Mr. President, but peace we do not know at all.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 07:05:30 AM
It's not a matter of "agree", its a matter of reality.  There will never be a scenario where the U.S. would nuke Israel, facilitated by an attack on Israel

We now return to our regularly scheduled reality

No it is a matter of misrepresentation.

Why on earth would you suddenly proclaim that now you have me on record when i have been on record going back to 2007 and most probably earlier?

My most charitable impulse is you are simply unaware that you do it. My least charitable impulse says that there is something pathological guiding your behavior.



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 24, 2011, 10:13:40 AM
The reality is that Netanyahu never wanted or thought to initiate change. When he was elected two years ago, he understood that in order not to initiate change, he would have to play at negotiations that lead nowhere. But alas, there was nobody in the White House who would play this nice little game with him, and his true colors were exposed: He wants settlements, he wants occupation, he wants the situation as it is and sees no problem with it. And now, Netanyahu prefers confrontation. Confrontation with you, confrontation with the Palestinians, confrontation with anyone he sees as coming out against the persecuted people.
==============================================================================
Amen to this! Thank you for posting something rational, Henny.

The Israelis are NOT the ones being persecuted. They are not the ones waiting in interminable lines to get to work, to go to school, to get thrown in jail on no charges for two weeks, to have their trees cut down, their villages divided by walls and their homes bulldozed. 

Netanyahu knows that what Obama said was entirely rational and in keeping with what every American president has said since 1967, But he wants no negotiations. He wants only the teensiest symbolic negotiations that lead to nowhere. Bibi the assh*le, that is who we have here.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 24, 2011, 10:14:36 AM
BT thinks that Israel will keep the most important land gains from 67 and in the spirit of peace give back the rest. Now if BT thinks that Israel will keep the most important lands gains from 1967 that kinda indicates that he doesn't think that Israel will roll back to pre-67.
Other than that he really doesn't give a damn other than once they do agree
to peace it should be enforced by the nose of a nuke.

So in other words you still are talking about what you think Israel will do,
but you wont take a specific position yourself one way or the other on
whether you support a return to '67 borders?
In fact when pressed you just say you "don't give a damn".
Of course that's ok....but it's interesting.
I will gladly say "NO" to '67 borders.
I think SIRS will gladly say "NO" not in favor of '67 borders.
But you only want to talk about other's possible actions and positions.

But it is interesting that you don't know my position, yet sirs is dead certain i'm all for a roll back.
How can two different people who both have read this thread come to such different conclusions.

Well I must say like I stated earlier I thought it looked like you were
supportive of returning to "67 borders, but then after the discussion
continued and SIRS challenged people to specifically defend that
position you seem to back off. Basically whats it seems to have boiled down to
is #1. Israel shouldn't value life so much. #2. Israel should pack up and move
to Australia. #3. Nuke entire areas if anyone shoots an RPG. In my mind
those are all obviously cop-out non-answers that are not practical in the real
world. So if no one can come forward with a real world solution Israel would
be nuts to move an inch.

And the Mark thing. .....Sooner or later we will open the new site, my guess is if
you invite Facebook friends they know who you are anyway. And wasn't that your
idea to begin with?

Ok....but after you or someone stated on a few occasions about how Facebook may be
unworkable because people prefer to remain anonymous I kind of agree and think a
Facebook approach could be problematic. I think there might be a way we could market
ourselves on Facebook to reach more people, but not necessarily have each posters
profile linked to their Facebook. I know I wouldn't want some of the people that have
been on 3DHS looking at pictures of my family, my activities, ect....Of course it would
be cool with most people to be able to look, but we've had some whackjobs in here
BT and sometimes tempers and emotions particularly in political discussions can
lead to anger and potential problems with different personalities.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 24, 2011, 10:20:45 AM
Ok....but after you or someone stated on a few occasions about how Facebook may be
unworkable because people prefer to remain anonymous I kind of agree and think a
Facebook approach could be problematic. I think there might be a way we could market
ourselves on Facebook to reach more people, but not necessarily have each posters
profile linked to their Facebook. I know I wouldn't want some of the people that have
been on 3DHS looking at pictures of my family, my activities, ect....Of course it would
be cool with most people to be able to look, but we've had some whackjobs in here
BT and sometimes tempers and emotions particularly in political discussions can
lead to anger and potential problems with different personalities.

Here is something we can agree on in this thread. Not only do I hate offending friends - from all backgrounds, religions, politics and persuasions - my family via marriage would have a fit if they did see some of my honest commentaries on life in the Middle East. They generally feel offended when I give negative reviews as an American. (I.e.: Don't air the dirty laundry if it's not yours.) Since I have to answer to them at family gatherings... yeah, I'll never be connecting Facebook to my DebateGate profile.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 24, 2011, 10:28:18 AM
The territory being negotiated here was all taken from Jordan by force in the 1967 war. So that is what MUST be negotiated.

What asshole Bibi wanted to do is prevent ANY negotiations whatever.

Fine, just cut off all his aid, all his ammo, all the tax breaks for donations to Israel.

Israel is a hindrance to peace. Just like Hamas. Let the US simply say, "Hold elections and elect someone with an effing brain, both of you: come back with a leader that won't throw stupid tantrums and we can talk."


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 11:31:28 AM
It's not a matter of "agree", its a matter of reality.  There will never be a scenario where the U.S. would nuke Israel, facilitated by an attack on Israel

We now return to our regularly scheduled reality

No it is a matter of misrepresentation.

No, its not.  This, ladies and gentlemen, is a deflection.  You're trying to make this about some mispresentation of a position you apparently had way back when, that I simply didn't know, when that doesn't matter, since its the position itself that is so based on an unreality, regardless of when you had it

Remember the reference about deflections and truth??  Nice try though




(And as far as Facebook....I totally agree with Miss Henny & Cu4, especially on the potential of alienating and offending friends.  We have friends we visit every Sat, go to dinner, and then go to their house to play boardgames and watch reruns of Who's line....".  Nearly all of them are pretty strong liberals, the Husband of the house being a union member, a friend being a Teacher & union member, 1 a staunch liberal atheist, and nearly all hated Bush.  We don't talk politics, because they know my wife and & are staunch conservatives. 

I really don't think its a good idea, but that's just my opinion)

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 24, 2011, 11:58:03 AM
I do not understand what you mean with this "deflection" nonsense.

I agree that it is impossible that the US would agree to any treaty that would oblige it to nuke both Israel and Palestine over another crazy Rabbi Goldberg machine-ginning a mosqueful of Palestinians or one rocket taking out a kindergarten in Keriat Shimona or anything like that. There are crazy people on both sides.

But to me your constant claiming of "deflections" is simply a way of marking your territory with the Mark of sirs: one-=ce marked, sirs has won this argument, as the whole area around it clearly reeks of sirs' irrefutable logic.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 12:25:33 PM
I do not understand what you mean with this "deflection" nonsense.

Asked and answered already.  Like your use of "nonsense", that is a bit of a deflection, in trying to minimize its substance to a person's posting one.  They're kinda like a dodge, as well (no, not the car, oh mighty literal nazi)

It's either a purposeful (or perhaps unintended) answer to a question that was never asked, or a prompting of a position that was never requested or had to do with the point of the question, or the prompting of a postion that's irrelevent to the point of the original post being responded to.  It's an effort to try and make folks "don't look here, but look over there", because their original position or point either can't be defended, supported, or perhaps they're even embarrased by it


But to me your constant claiming of "deflections" is

...merely pointing out when they're being tried.  Don't pull them, & you'll never see me point them out

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 12:27:53 PM
So apparently Sirs was wrong when he proclaimed that i wanted to roll back the borders to the pre 67 positions, since as you have pointed out, i haven't stated a position. I have simply stated what i think Israel will do. Is that correct?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 12:31:56 PM
Yea, I was wrong as to when you 1st prefaced the non-starter position of a nuclear peace plan....now that we've dispensed with that irrelevency, we can get back to......oh wait, your position itself is a non-starter.  Oh well
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 12:35:08 PM
Yea, I was wrong as to when you 1st prefaced the non-starter position of a nuclear peace plan....now that we've dispensed with that irrelevency, we can get back to......oh wait, your position itself is a non-starter.  Oh well

Actually you were wrong in two instances. One as to when i went on record with the nuke option and two my stated position re the 67 borders.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 01:04:22 PM
No, your positions on the 67borders remains just as ambiguous as when this topic 1st got started.  You agreed with Bsb, yet when being pushed to take a position, you punted to a prediction, vs proclaiming that which Bt would be advocating.....outside of yet another ambiguous land swap.

But, as we've all noted, since your position on the peace process is a non-starter to begin with, all this extra time and energy is irrelevent use of band width.  I recommend "take a chance"......try advocating a policy/plan that actually has a starting component to it.  1 that has some assemblence of reality built in
Title: Re: The Israeli Reality that Obama Doesn't Understand...
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 01:14:58 PM
Coming straight from Haaretz... if only 15% of Israelis even know about the 22-state Arab Peace Initiative, how many of YOU knew about it?

Miss Henny, since I respect you so much, and know that you really do want peace, yet won't mince words, I'd like to ask you directly:

Is this or is this not a reasonable starter??

- Hamas MUST remove from its charter death of Israel
- in Writing, the surrounding Arab nations, including the Palestinians, as run by Hamas, MUST acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, right where it is

----------------------------------------------------------------

From that point:
Israel will move back to its 67borders...IF....in writing, there are clear repercussions to befall any organization and/or nation that dares to launch ANY attack on the new Israel and its 67borders

Repercussions can include military attacks upon any and/or all CnC centers, any and/or all communication centers, and any/or all vehicles with wheels.  Repercussions to be swift and total

If Israel were to act "mischevious" by trying to place settlements in those new Palestinian territories, they will be met by military vehicles, and bulldozers if necessary

??
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 01:15:46 PM
Quote
No, your positions on the 67borders remains just as ambiguous as when this topic 1st got started.

Then why claim that you knew my position, which as CU pointed out, i never stated. And why go to all that trouble to back up that claim, with links that just point out the predictions i was making.

The fact that my nuke solution may or may not be workable has zip to do with when i went on record with it. It certainly wasn't just now, as you stated.

Planes idea is just as unworkable, what mother would give up her child to be reared by the enemy, yet you seemed willing to entertain that idea.




Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 24, 2011, 01:16:33 PM
So apparently Sirs was wrong when he proclaimed that i wanted to roll back the borders to the pre 67 positions, since as you have pointed out, i haven't stated a position. I have simply stated what i think Israel will do. Is that correct?

lol....whats does it matter "who thinks who said what when"?....blah blah"
when you can just answer the simple question?
in my mind we just want to know what you BT support
we're not asking what you think someone else might or might not do
CU = Does not support return of '67 borders
SIRS = Does not support return of '67 borders
BT= ?

why is it difficult to be straightforward?
are you afraid of having to defend a position...so you keep it vague?


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 01:22:50 PM
So apparently Sirs was wrong when he proclaimed that i wanted to roll back the borders to the pre 67 positions, since as you have pointed out, i haven't stated a position. I have simply stated what i think Israel will do. Is that correct?

lol....whats does it matter "who thinks who said what when"?....blah blah"
when you can just answer the simple question?
in my mind we just want to know what you BT support
we're not asking what you think someone else might or might not do
CU = Does not support return of '67 borders
SIRS = Does not support return of '67 borders
BT= ?

why is it difficult to be straightforward?
are you afraid of having to defend a position...so you keep it vague?


Actually Sirs is willing (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg125070/#msg125070) to move the borders back to pre-67 positions.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 01:25:09 PM
So apparently Sirs was wrong when he proclaimed that i wanted to roll back the borders to the pre 67 positions, since as you have pointed out, i haven't stated a position. I have simply stated what i think Israel will do. Is that correct?

lol....whats does it matter "who thinks who said what when"?....blah blah"
when you can just answer the simple question?
in my mind we just want to know what you BT support
we're not asking what you think someone else might or might not do
CU = Does not support return of '67 borders
SIRS = Does not support return of '67 borders
BT= ?

why is it difficult to be straightforward?
are you afraid of having to defend a position...so you keep it vague?

My position is Israel would be foolish to give up the Golan Heights, without major concessions from Syria. I think the West Bank can be dealt with on a hectare by hectare basis.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 24, 2011, 01:28:33 PM
All starters must be met with an counter agreement.

I give you this, if you give me that.

IF Hamas swears to remove its pledge to destroy Israel, what is Israel prepared to swear to do?

Israel COULD have been well on the way to an agreement with the West Bank Fatah, but before anything substantial was discussed, Israel allowed some foolishness with East Jerusalem, and did this twice. Netanyahu wants no serious discussions.

All talks must start with the 1967 borders, because that is what the UN Mandate requires. Israel exists because the UN agreed to its existence.

The Golan was never a part of Palestine. That would be the subject of a separate agreement. It is illegally annexed Syrian territory. Israel will have to trade something in return.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 01:33:15 PM
All starters must be met with an counter agreement.  I give you this, if you give me that.  IF Hamas swears to remove its pledge to destroy Israel, what is Israel prepared to swear to do?.....All talks must start with the 1967 borders, because that is what the UN Mandate requires. Israel exists because the UN agreed to its existence.  

NO, that is a NON-STARTER.  You can't even start negotiations with an entity that doesn't recongnize your right to exist.  You can't.  Swear is not enough.  Pinky swear is not enough.  "PROMISE" is not enough.


Quote
No, your positions on the 67borders remains just as ambiguous as when this topic 1st got started.  

Then why claim that you knew my position, which as CU pointed out, i never stated.  

Because you made repeated concurrences to BsB's return to the 67borders (with the also ambiguous land swap).  But as we all can tell by now, THIS is what you want everyone to try and focus on, instead of......

The fact that my nuke solution may or may not be workable has zip to do with when i went on record with it. It certainly wasn't just now, as you stated.  

It is irrelevant to the notion of trying to debate a peace process


Planes idea is just as unworkable, what mother would give up her child to be reared by the enemy, yet you seemed willing to entertain that idea.

Apparently you missed the part where I referenced impossible & impractical.  I "liked it" because it was a peace process that didn't require the mass killing of millions, in the after effects of a rocket attack upon Jerusalem from the West Bank

Soooo........going to try advocating a policy/plan that actually has a starting component to it.  1 that has some assemblance of reality built in?  Or are we going to be stuck on this irrelevant deflective accusatory loop?

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 01:38:37 PM
Quote
Because you made repeated concurrences to BsB's return to the 67borders

There ya go again. Show me repeated, and just to be clear that does not mean quoted, concurrences with BSB's statement.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 01:43:45 PM
So you want to keep playing the irrelevent deflective accusatory loop, rather than deal with the topic at hand and debate some serious issues regarding the ME peace process.  Sorry, count me out of that game
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 01:47:17 PM
So you want to keep playing the irrelevent deflective accusatory loop, rather than deal with the topic at hand and debate some serious issues regarding the ME peace process.  Sorry, count me out of that game

No i simply want you to quit making up crap as you go along, it isn't irrelevant to call you on a lie. It certainly is a deflection to not address your misstatements.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 01:53:19 PM
It's NOT a lie, when its either a mistake, as in when you 1st were claiming your nuke notion, nor a lie, when you WERE agreeing with BsB and his 67borders position

IT IS A DEFLECTION WHEN, AS I ACCURATELY REFERENCED JUST A BIT AGO, HOW YOU WANT THE FOCUS TO BE ON THIS, VS DEBATING THE ACTUAL PEACE PROCESS. 

NOTICE HOW YOU HAVE YET TO ADDRESS THAT, WHICH IS THE RELEVENT POINT TO THIS THREAD
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 02:32:09 PM
I have addressed the 67 borders. I am more against rolling them back than you are.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 24, 2011, 02:32:51 PM
WHAT is the relevant point again?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 02:33:30 PM
Without any words to preface the 300lb gorilla-in-the-room IF factor, I have been constantly referencing, as far as being able to generate any lasting peace, between Israel and its neighbors, I'm led to have to assume that their (Bt's, BsB's, and Xo's) positions are one of Israel to shut up, and just live with the 2 state position, with that other state being one who's Government is run by a faction whose charter calls on the death of every living Jew.  Will throw you a few bones of land swapping, but you're just going to have to live with it

That's all I can assume, based on their non-responses and no-starter positions, like 67borders.  Perhaps they can better clarify themselves, in subsequent posts.  Should, at the very least, not the Palestinian leader stand before his people and say he is willing to accept an Israeli state, just as Netanyahu is saying he can accept a Palestinian one??
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 02:37:14 PM
I have addressed the 67 borders. I am more against rolling them back than you are.

................and......................?


WHAT is the relevant point again?

That the 2nd party to the 2 state notion, has as its governing body, a charter that includes the death and destruction of the other state.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 02:39:40 PM
Quote
................and......................?

and what?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 02:42:21 PM
oy

......going to try advocating a policy/plan that actually has a starting component to it?  1 that has some assemblance of reality built in?  Come on, take a chance
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 24, 2011, 02:51:47 PM
Gaza is a cramped combination slum and jail, where people have been confined for their entire lives to suffer poverty, deprivation and hopelessness. They have Israel to blame for this: these people were driven out of their homes by the Israeli Army in 1947 and left to rot in something quite like concentration camps for over 50 years. They have no nationality, they have no jobs, no prospects, nothing. They are not allowed to enter the West Bank, they have no seaport, no airport, no sewer system, electrical power is intermittent.

Why would they NOT want Israel to just "go away" and let them move back into their homes? Very few Gaza Palestinians actually fought the Israelis, as they had no organization or weapons. When armies can to "defend" their rights, they were chased away, and the Israelis prevented them from going home again.

There is a reason why they voted for Hamas. At the time of the elections, the two major parties were Fatah, a corrupt WB organization, and Hamas, affiliated with the mosque and therefore seen as more honest. Hamas candidates were younger, as are Gazans.

Keep in mind that Hamas rules Gaza because of Condi Rice's poor intelligence, perhaps fed to her by the Israelis, who actually WANT Gaza and the WB to be divided, because two weak enemies are better than one stronger one. Condi thought democracy would bring peace and tranquility and unification. She was wrong, wrong, wrong.

If you were a Gazan, what would YOU do?


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 02:56:28 PM
So basically, Xo's making my point, with all his rationalization efforts (along with the obligatory dig at Rice)....Israel should just shut up, and so what if the state that is allowed to expand and grow next to them has as its governning body a charter to kill every Jew, and destroy the state of Israel.  Israel just needs to accept it, and in fact, give them more land to do it from.

Is that about right?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 03:09:33 PM
Israel is free to negotiate with whom and how it sees fit.

The question is do we need to continue to subsidize them while they are looking for the perfect partner?

If so why?

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 24, 2011, 03:27:19 PM
I am simply positing a question: if YOU were a Gazan, what would YOU offer the Israelis? They have taken everything from your people and locked up everyone you know in a miserable prison. What would YOU ask of them in return for not wanting them to just vanish?

Gazans are not that different from anyone else.

Keep in mind that no one lived in any of Hitler's camps for more than six years. Gazans have been locked up for nearly 60 years. And the only crime most of them committed was to be in the way of the Zionists: people convinced that God has awarded their land to them after 1000 years or so.

If you were a Gazan, what would YOU do?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 03:32:45 PM
Israel is free to negotiate with whom and how it sees fit.

The question is do we need to continue to subsidize them while they are looking for the perfect partner?

If so why?

Actually that's a completely different question than the one I posed, and still has yet to be addresed, outside of whatever Israel wants to do, they can.  But oh well. 

No, we don't need to subsidize anyone in the region.     
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 03:44:20 PM
I am simply positing a question: if YOU were a Gazan, what would YOU offer the Israelis?  

Do they want peace??  THAT IS THE QUESTION.  If they want peace, the start is going to HAVE TO remove from their Hamas governing charter, the destruction of Israel.  That is the other "state", in this supposed 2 state plan

And until there are clear articulated repercussions that will rain down upon anyone attacking Israel from those lands in the West Bank & Golan, I see no need for Israel to consider anything that would provide even more land for those folks to attack a smaller Israel from.  It defies logic to even consider it, despite your skewed perception of what has befallen the Palestinians, by those supposed evil Jews
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 24, 2011, 03:49:39 PM
What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

The Gazans have nothing to offer but this and perhaps a promise to try to keep hotheads from sending small rockets into  Israel.

The ball is in Israel's court.

And no, I am not exaggerating the Gazan situation one bit.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 04:36:39 PM
Israel is free to negotiate with whom and how it sees fit.

The question is do we need to continue to subsidize them while they are looking for the perfect partner?

If so why?

Actually that's a completely different question than the one I posed, and still has yet to be addresed, outside of whatever Israel wants to do, they can.  But oh well. 

No, we don't need to subsidize anyone in the region.   

Good. Then what do we care what the terms and conditions of their peace agreements are?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 04:44:31 PM
What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

 ::)

If you're going to have a peaceful go-existance with your state neighbor, it kinda helps the negotiating process, knowing that that neighbor's intent is no longer to see your death.

Not sure how good an analogy this is, but what the hell......Neighborhood with a nice home, and lots of vacant land around.  Beyond the vacant lot, and scattered within, are folks that think your home is their home.  They even make it public and on record to kill you.  Their friends tried to kill you but failed, and you took charge of those vacant lots.  You offer this corner of the lot, you offer them that corner, you throw them a few bones, but you don't let them into your house.  They insist they must live right next to you, and oh, by the way, our arrangement is to kill you, whenever we get the chance.

You think the Home owner now is the one who needs to appease and placate??  I think not. 

But since we're so hip on the land for the "promise of peace", I'll flip it.....for Hamas to remove from its charter, the death of Israel & every Jew, Israel will "promise to go back to 67borders"


The Gazans have nothing to offer

They absolutely do...IN FACT THAT'S THE STARTING POINT.  It's THEIR Government with the charter.  Until that predisposition changes, Israel needs to do........NOTHING.  Arab neighors  IF THEY WANT PEACE, would be encouraged to provide some political pushing on those very elements within the Palestinian Government. 

And I'm sure you'd agree that at the very least, the Palestinian leader stand before his people and say he is willing to accept an Israeli state, just as Netanyahu is saying he can accept a Palestinian one.  right?

Ball's in the Palenstinian's court.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 04:48:14 PM
Israel is free to negotiate with whom and how it sees fit.

The question is do we need to continue to subsidize them while they are looking for the perfect partner?

If so why?

Actually that's a completely different question than the one I posed, and still has yet to be addresed, outside of whatever Israel wants to do, they can.  But oh well. 

No, we don't need to subsidize anyone in the region.   

Good. Then what do we care what the terms and conditions of their peace agreements are?

Placating the far lesser issue.........because, unlike some apparently, I care about the death & destruction occuring in the ME, and the peace that can be achieved with Israel & its Arab neighbors, if we deal with the 300lb gorilla in the room.  But no one said you had to care, so that's cool
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 05:04:11 PM
Quote
Placating the far lesser issue.........because, unlike some apparently, I care about the death & destruction occuring in the ME, and the peace that can be achieved with Israel & its Arab neighbors, if we deal with the 300lb gorilla in the room.  But no one said you had to care, so that's cool

Shouldn't it be they deal .

What are your thoughts about making Israel the 51st state. That would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 05:11:02 PM
Quote
Placating the far lesser issue.........because, unlike some apparently, I care about the death & destruction occuring in the ME, and the peace that can be achieved with Israel & its Arab neighbors, if we deal with the 300lb gorilla in the room.  But no one said you had to care, so that's cool

Shouldn't it be they deal .  

No, that's your position.  I've already told you my plan, and it does require a 3rd party repercussion intervention, as needed


What are your thoughts about making Israel the 51st state. That would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it?

Sure it would, but they're already home, right where they are.  Definately is an upgrade from your nuclear peace plan, but why would I make them move?  Why would I want to make anyone move away from their home??  Why should they want to move from their home??  You're really good with the non-starter positions, I'll grant you that
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 05:22:03 PM
Quote
I've already told you my plan, and it does require a 3rd party repercussion intervention, as needed

Who pays for the third party intervention? Thought you agreed Israel did not need or deserve US subsidies.

Quote
Sure it would, but they're already home, right where they are.  Definately is an upgrade from your nuclear peace plan, but why would I make them move?  Why would I want to make anyone move away from their home??  Why should they want to move from their home??  You're really good with the non-starter positions, I'll grant you that

Who says they have to move. Did the Hawaiians or Alaskans have to move? Sheeesh.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 05:31:10 PM
Quote
I've already told you my plan, and it does require a 3rd party repercussion intervention, as needed

Who pays for the third party intervention? Thought you agreed Israel did not need or deserve US subsidies.

Who said we were paying Israel anything?  Besides, it was simply an answer to your question, that had prescious little to do with my plan or the 300lb gorilla, that has yet to be addressed


Quote
Sure it would, but they're already home, right where they are.  Definately is an upgrade from your nuclear peace plan, but why would I make them move?  Why would I want to make anyone move away from their home??  Why should they want to move from their home??  You're really good with the non-starter positions, I'll grant you that

Who says they have to move. Did the Hawaiians or Alaskans have to move? Sheeesh.

Ok, I see where you're going with that.......hmmmmmm........hell of a long commute, but I see potential.  It'd require a massive new diplomatic approach to convince Israel to no longer be its own sovereign nation.  But it definately has an upside to it, which would also allow a return to the pre-67 borders, since any attack on Israel at that time, is an attack on the U.S.

You might be on to something.  Cu4, what are your thoughts?  Miss Henny?  Plane?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 24, 2011, 06:33:56 PM
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/ca4ddfea.jpg)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 24, 2011, 06:38:31 PM
SIRS.....realize we are talking fantasy land again
but I am not sure about statehood for Israel
I'd have to see what the ramifications were
i'm sure some up side and bad side
people smarter than me would have to
explain to me the plus/minus ratio
it's a fun "what if" but i doubt has
any practicality.....but i'd like one
aspect of it...it would drive the
IslamoNazis absolutely bonkers!
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 24, 2011, 06:43:10 PM
Our constitution prohibits any religious test for public office.

We think this wise.

I don't think a majority of Isrelis nor Palestinians would go for it.

That would knock statehood pretty badly.

The potential for peace is reduced by so many people being involved who want something elese than peace more than they want peace.

The US is too entangled to ever be completely uninvolved , some of the biggest Jewish citys of the world are in the US , and some of our Muslim communitys are growing into that class.

If we impose a solution we may have to fight the solution into place, fighting both sides of course.

If we pay for a solution we will have to pay a lot , we are already paying bills for Isreal, Jordan, Egypt and some Palestinians, it amounts to a lot but what amount more would buy real peace?

Perhaps cutting back on everyones allowance would improve co-operation ?  We would need to co-ordinate with the Saudi's elese they would simply pick up the slack.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 06:54:18 PM
I definately appreciate yours and Cu4's notions on Bt's better looking peace plan.  I actually don't think its that far fetched, to be honest, so for me at least, it has some level of reality.  I'm curious though, what did any of you think of my gorilla in the room peace plan (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg125070/#msg125070)? 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 07:00:55 PM
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/ca4ddfea.jpg)

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to a joint session of Congress today. His remarks were greatly anticipated, coming off a tense meeting with President Barack Obama and a series of rhetorical skirmishes between the two men over the Israel-Palestine peace process. Obama last week advocated a two-state peace solution and a return to Israel's 1967 borders.
Majority Leader Eric Cantor escorted Netanyahu into the House Chamber to a room full of applause and loud cheers as Netanyahu shook hands, embraced and waved to those present.

"I am deeply moved by this warm welcome," Netanyahu said. "I am deeply honored that you have given me the opportunity to address Congress for the second time."

Netanyahu addressed a joint meeting Congress 15 years ago, saying he saw a lot of old friends and a lot of new friends from both political parties.

"Israel has no better friend than America and America has no better friend than Israel," he said, adding that Israel is the one emblem of stability in the Middle East.

The Prime Minister started his remarks by addressing what he referred to as an "epic battle underway in the Middle East," saying the region stands at a crossroads and has potential for freedom, liberty and true democracy rather than tyranny and oppression. Netanyahu hopes the countries surrounding Israel will take a path to liberty, as he believes true democracy is the only way to bring long term peace to the region, but said democracy is not paved by elections alone. His remarks noted that there must be a respect and dedication for the rule of law rather than men and that free speech must be upheld by governments rather than suppressed. Netanyahu upheld Israel as an example of that true democracy.

"Israel isn't what is wrong about the Middle East. Israel is what is right about the Middle East," he said.

Netanyahu said that governments like Iran's that continue to deny the holocaust and have called for the total destruction of the Jewish State should be exiled from participation in the United Nations and other international organizations. He said Iran specifically must continue to know that all options, including harsh sanctions and military intervention, are on the table in order to prevent the rogue nation from developing nuclear weapons, which he says would ignite a nuclear arms race in the Middle East and pose a fatal threat to Israel and the United States.

"We must take calls for destruction of our nation seriously," he said. "When we say never again, we mean never again."

Netanyahu acknowledged that the only way to gain stability moving forward is to develop lasting peace with the Palestinians. He called for two separate states, one Jewish and one Palestinian, pointing out his understanding that Israel will have to give up some Jewish ancestral land for peace. However, Netanyahu stressed that peace cannot ever be achieved unless Palestinian President Abbas denounces Hamas and recognizes Israel's right to exist. He said peace has not been achieved because the Palestinians have not accepted the idea of a Palestinian State next to a Jewish State. Netanyahu said Israel has always accepted Palestinians' right to exist.

"Israel is not a foreign occupier," he said. "They [Palestinians] continue to educate their children to hate. They continue to name public squares after terrorists."

Netanyahu made it clear he is willing to negotiate with the Palestinians for peace, but will not do so as long as the government in Palestine is backed by a terrorist organization, saying the leader of Hamas condemned the killing of Osama bin Laden while upholding bin Laden as a holy leader.

"Its time for President Abbas to stand before his people and say, 'I will accept a Jewish state,'" he said. "Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government backed by the Palestinian version of Al Qaeda."

Netanyahu said Israel will be the first State to welcome a Hamas-free Palestine into the United Nations if Abbas chooses to distance himself from the terrorist group and negotiate a real peace agreement.

Netanyahu swiftly rejected Obama's mideast peace "solution" last week and re-iterated his stance that Israel cannot and will not go back to 1967 borders today, but did concede that Israel is willing to make painful compromises for peace.

"Jerusalem must never again be divided," he said, adding that Jerusalem is the only place in the region where Christians, Jews and Muslims can worship peacefully. "Peace must be anchored in security."

He also said a long term military presence along the Jordan River will be necessary to protect the peace and sovereignty of Israel and to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Palestine, as the United Nations has failed to do, resulting in the launch of over 12,000 rockets into Israel, adding that a peace settlement through the United Nations will not work.

"Peace must not be imposed, it must be negotiated," he said. "Hamas is not a partner for peace."

Throughout his remarks, Natanyahu repeatedly thanked America for her support and partnership, even in tough economic times.

"No one can guarantee our peace partners that are here today, will be here tomorrow," he said.

Netanyahu was interrupted with standing applause 27 times and congratulated President Obama for killing Osama bin Laden.

"Thank you for ensuring that the flame of freedom burns throughout the world. May god forever bless the United States of America."  (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/05/24/powerful_netanyahu_speech_rebukes_obama_in_front_of_congress)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 24, 2011, 07:03:37 PM
Quote
Repercussions can include military attacks upon any and/or all CnC centers, any and/or all communication centers, and any/or all vehicles with wheels.  Repercussions to be swift and total

If Israel were to act "mischevious" by trying to place settlements in those new Palestinian territories, they will be met by military vehicles, and bulldozers if necessary


I think this would happen a lot.

But would Jordanians or Egyptians have enthusiasm for strict enforcement of rules on Palestinians ? Or Americans like getting ambushed by Isrelis ?

No set of rules is going to seem fair to everyone , and some of these people are accustomed to fighting.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 07:12:03 PM
So, are the repercussions not severe enough, you think??
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 24, 2011, 07:18:38 PM
So, are the repercussions not severe enough, you think??

It would be so simple.

They could all become Christians , or the half that are not Jews could convert to Judaism , or the half that are not Muslim could convert to Islam.

They would rather die, of course< so what repercussions can be enough?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 07:20:08 PM
SIRS.....realize we are talking fantasy land again
but I am not sure about statehood for Israel
I'd have to see what the ramifications were
i'm sure some up side and bad side
people smarter than me would have to
explain to me the plus/minus ratio
it's a fun "what if" but i doubt has
any practicality.....but i'd like one
aspect of it...it would drive the
IslamoNazis absolutely bonkers!

(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gm11052220110524065853.jpg)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 07:31:25 PM
So, are the repercussions not severe enough, you think??

It would be so simple.

They could all become Christians , or the half that are not Jews could convert to Judaism , or the half that are not Muslim could convert to Islam.

They would rather die, of course< so what repercussions can be enough?

Are you deducing that no repercussions can be severe enough, outside of Bt's nuclear deterrent to all parties?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 08:05:06 PM
Quote
Who said we were paying Israel anything?


The Second 10-Year Plan: Proposed U.S. Military Aid to Israel
(FY2009-FY2018)
2009    
$2.55 billion
2010    
$2.70 billion
2011    
$2.85 billion
2012    
$3.00 billion
2013-2018    
$3.15 billion per year

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 08:12:36 PM
LOL....I know you're not that dense.  I wasn't asking what we currently pay to Israel.  You asked.....oh gravy....who's paying for the repercussions of my plan, that I supposedly was against any subsidies to Israel.  I thought I made it crystal clear that the no subsidies was an answer to YOUR question, and not about my plan.  Further, the $'s spent in the repercussions aren't even going to Israel, they're going towards the 3rd party, enforcing the repercussions, whoever they may be.

NONE of this having anything to do with what Israel currently receives in U.S. aid
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 08:19:25 PM
Quote
  Further, the $'s spent in the repercussions aren't even going to Israel, they're going towards the 3rd party, enforcing the repercussions, whoever they may be.

The repercussions have a cost, no matter who the 3rd party is. Who pays according to your plan, and why?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 24, 2011, 08:28:15 PM
The why is pretty obvious.....personel, equipment, logistics, intel, etc.

The who, is whoever is behind helping to put together this plan, split up between those folk.  You think your joint U.S./USSR nuke deterrent is a freebie?  Nukes don't grow on trees, and nuclear devices don't make themselves.  Same principle, only fashioned around reality of using standard ordinance and manpower, and whatever else is necessary to enforce the peace, thru monitoring, intel, and these repercussions, if they become necessary
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 24, 2011, 08:54:39 PM
So who is the whoever. Previously you mentioned NATO . Does that mean the US foots the bill again.

By the By. The bombs are built. The only expense other than a minimum staff is whatever delivery mechanism is used to meet the repercussions.

What has Libya cost us thus far?

Bet my solution is cheaper in treasure and third party casualties.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 24, 2011, 09:05:22 PM
t's a fun "what if" but i doubt has
any practicality.....but i'd like one
aspect of it...it would drive the
IslamoNazis absolutely bonkers!
==========================================

That is the main problem with you. You favor stupid, really stupid gestures just to tick people off over any sort of rational thought.

If Palisrael were the 51st state, all this "Jewish State" crap would go out the window. We have no established religion in the USA, and are better off for it.

There would be no more destroying olive groves and bulldozing homes without compensation.

There would be no more "special highways" on which cars with Palestine plates could be prevented from driving.

No more subsidies for Ultra-Orthodox "religious scholars" who are paid by the state of Israel for spending their entire lives studying the Torah while their wives compete by popping out maximum quantities of babies at government expense.

No more jailing Palestinians for up to a month without charges.

No change that the Third temple would ever be built on the Al Aqsa Mosque site.

Palestinians could sue for discrimination and get equal funds to attend colleges and schools.

And of course, everyone would get free subsidized, single-payer health care.

But it would tick off "IslamoNazis". (not to mention JudeoNazis).
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Religious Dick on May 24, 2011, 11:34:21 PM
'US Congress controlled by AIPAC' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Rj0hlF2Xs#)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 25, 2011, 12:33:53 AM
I question that Israel is worth all the money and aid we give them.

I do not think that their being an ally has helped us as much as it has harmed us.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 01:35:43 AM
So who is the whoever. Previously you mentioned NATO . Does that mean the US foots the bill again.

Possibly.  They foot it in yours


By the By. The bombs are built. The only expense other than a minimum staff is whatever delivery mechanism is used to meet the repercussions.   Bet my solution is cheaper in treasure and third party casualties.


While we ignore the exponential greater loss in both 1st party treasure and casualties
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 09:43:02 AM
Quote
While we ignore the exponential greater loss in both 1st party treasure and casualties

right.

heckuva incentive to keep the peace
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 25, 2011, 10:53:57 AM
I am thinking just a really, really large bomb under the Western Wall and the Dome of the Rock might be an adequate incentive. Or some way of just blowing these up.

Of course, all these plans involving destruction and death are rather moot.

As I have pointed out, Palisrael is rife with all manner of fanatics: The Goldberg who machine gunned a mosqueful of worshippers, a number of bus bombers, the clown who shot Rabin. They art not lacking in crazy martyrs, and in fact have one of the world's largest supplied of them.

I do not see the US or NATO or even the Russians blowing up innocent people because of what some crazy fool has done. That is the flaw there.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 11:14:18 AM
Quote
While we ignore the exponential greater loss in both 1st party treasure and casualties

right.

heckuva incentive to keep the peace

And a non-starter to boot.  congrats
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 02:03:28 PM
Quote
While we ignore the exponential greater loss in both 1st party treasure and casualties

right.

heckuva incentive to keep the peace

And a non-starter to boot.  congrats

I get the feeling peace is not the ultimate goal, with you.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 02:30:18 PM
Of course it is...I'm the one with actual starting points involved.  I kinda had this conversation with Plane...feelings vs logic.  You probably shouldn't allow feelings to dictate your conclusions
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 02:56:42 PM
I don't know why you keep saying it i9s a non starter.

Even your boys at Townhall have talked about it.

http://townhall.com/columnists/rogerchapin/2010/06/08/threaten_war_to_keep_peace (http://townhall.com/columnists/rogerchapin/2010/06/08/threaten_war_to_keep_peace)

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 03:05:54 PM
I don't know why you keep saying it i9s a non starter.  Even your boys at Townhall have talked about it.  

Anyone can "talk" about it.  Reality is that there's far more a likelyhood of a our sun going supernova than the U.S. set to nuke Israel, as facilitated by rocket attacks ON Israel.  So, the one here who apparently isn't looking for peace as an ultimate goal, is the one making outrageous suggestions at bring about peace in the ME.

And strangely, you STILL as of yet haven't addressed the starting points, I indicated were far more realistic and yet necessary to facilitate peace.  Instead, you keep trying to demagogue my serious attempts, all the while still propping up yours as supposedly serious.  Why's that, I wonder

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 03:11:52 PM
You keep acting like Israel would be the victim of an attack instead of the aggressor. Are you aware of the history of the 67 war? Israel preemptively attacked Egypt and wiped out their entire airforce in a surprise attack.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 03:25:21 PM
Yeah let's talk about your starting points where ultimately Israel gives up any gains achieved by the 67 war, far more concilliatory than I am. And then once an agreement is reach you want to enforce it with UN or Nato troops as some type of peace keeping mission, being very vague as to who bears the ongoing costs of maintaining that force.

My solution is simple. Reach an agreement on borders of the two states and the duo of Russia and the US will guarantee the integrity of both borders because zero belligerence from either party will be tolerated.

And if the Palestinians and Israeli's are smart they would focus more on internal security, ie rounding up potential trouble makers than the external security they are spending billions of (US) dollars on now.

The US has threatened nuclea annihilation numerous times, from the Cuban Missile Crisis to the 73 War where we told the Soviets if they intervened on Egypt's behalf we would respond with a nuclear attack on them. None of this is new.





Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 04:23:50 PM
You keep acting like Israel would be the victim of an attack instead of the aggressor. Are you aware of the history of the 67 war? Israel preemptively attacked Egypt and wiped out their entire airforce in a surprise attack.  

Are YOU??  The attack was based on the prearranging of the Arab forces, in preparing to attack Israel.  Israel has no reason to attack or even be an "aggressor" so long as there's an established peace.  Arab countries and Islamic terrorists leave Israel alone, Israel then leaves everyone else alone.  Not to mention, that my repercussions include contingencies on Israel supposedly "acting mischievous"

You're not trying to rewrite history now, are you??  You make it sound like Israel, for the sheer hell of it, attacked Egypt.  Is that what you think happened??

Yeah let's talk about your starting points where ultimately Israel gives up any gains achieved by the 67 war, far more concilliatory than I am. And then once an agreement is reach you want to enforce it with UN or NATO troops as some type of peace keeping mission, being very vague as to who bears the ongoing costs of maintaining that force.  

Never said easy, just doable.  And the NATO troops are not there as a "peace keeping force"...in fact, they're not even there.  Their mandate, who ever else it is, is also very clear.  They are merely given the authorization to use as much force, as needed, upon the total repercussion references of Command & Control, Communications, etc.  It's to be swift & total.  HARDLY the vague inference of some UN peace keeping force that watches while 2 sides keep attacking each other, while soaking up more tax dollars.   

And here's the kicker......THAT'S NOT EVEN THE STARTING POINT.  So, you either ignored it, or lets give you the benefit of the doubt, you missed it.  Lemme give you a hint, a starting point is that in which something 1st must happen.....a before b. 

The starting point, AGAIN, is that Hamas must remove from its charter, the total destruction and death of Jews and the Jewish state of Israel.  One can NOT negotiate with the other "state", if the others agenda is the death of the Israeli state.  At the very least, the Palestinian President must stand in front of his people and proclaim the right of Israel to exist in this 2 state configuration


My solution is simple. Reach an agreement on borders of the two states and the duo of Russia and the US will guarantee the integrity of both borders because zero belligerence from either party will be tolerated.

....WITH NUKES........(read nonstarter).  If you want to be serious about discussing the peace process in the middle east, I'd recommend starting with a serious position that has a basis in reality


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 04:35:38 PM
Quote
You're not trying to rewrite history now, are you??  You make it sound like Israel, for the sheer hell of it, attacked Egypt.  Is that what you think happened??

Yeah i just threw in the term pre-emptively for the hell of it. You really are a piece of work.

Quote
....WITH NUKES........(read nonstarter).

Yeah like command and control won't require body bags. Your solution is half assed.

And i am aware you are requiring the Palestinians to disavow Hamas before requiring Israel to come to the negotiating table.

And if Palestine does and a treaty is signed and Hamas wins the elections again, what then. Oh yeah your NATO forces and a warning ticket until the next time.

My solution changes mindsets. Yours just delays the inevitable.




Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 04:47:08 PM
Quote
You're not trying to rewrite history now, are you??  You make it sound like Israel, for the sheer hell of it, attacked Egypt.  Is that what you think happened??

Yeah i just threw in the term pre-emptively for the hell of it. You really are a piece of work.  

No, the "peice of work here" is the inference that Israel's attack upon Egypt makes them some kind of wild card aggressor, when HISTORY demonstrates precisely those who acted as actual aggressors.  Here's a hint, its NOT the country merely trying to survive. 

Why even bring up Israel's actions in defending their country??  It reinforces my starting points necessary, all the more


Quote
....WITH NUKES........(read nonstarter).  

Yeah like command and control won't require body bags. Your solution is half assed.  

LOL...yea, because exponentially far more death is preferred     ::)


And i am aware you are requiring the Palestinians to disavow Hamas before requiring Israel to come to the negotiating table.   And if Palestine does and a treaty is signed and Hamas wins the elections again, what then.

SWIFT & TOTAL.  But its not even "disavowing".  It's Hamas publically REMOVING from its charter, that if Isreal's destruction.  That removes the "what then"



My solution changes mindsets. Yours just delays the inevitable.

Yours is a non-starter, mine actually has a chance, as slim as it is, to bring about peace
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 05:07:38 PM
Quote
It's Hamas publically REMOVING from its charter, that if Isreal's destruction.  That removes the "what then"

lol, what next a pinky swear?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 05:17:12 PM
It's called a starting point.  Without it, there'll be no peace.  But cudos on reinforcing how you apparently really don't care about peace in the ME.  Just nuke them all       :'(
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 05:20:22 PM
It's called a starting point.  Without it, there'll be no peace.  But cudos on reinforcing how you apparently really don't care about peace in the ME.  Just nuke them all       :'(

So you are willing to accept a peace built on falsehoods?
Because i don't see how you can stop Hamas from reneging on their deal.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 05:46:17 PM
Will, it sure is enlightneing to know that any treaty signed, and any public document put forth between 2 nations forging a peace agreement, is one built on falsehoods.  I mean, if that's case, why haven't they done it already.  They could get a great jump on the PR campaign.  Look how it helped Germany, with their Treaty of Versailles.  Germany signed it, then completely ignored it

So in summation, there can be no peace.  Gotcha.  Sounds like a support for Israel to pre-emptively take out Hamas.  Since there can be no peace, that's the next best thing, I suppose
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 05:55:15 PM
Quote
Will, it sure is enlightneing to know that any treaty signed, and any public document put forth between 2 nations forging a peace agreement, is one built on falsehoods.  I mean, if that's case, why haven't they done it already.  They could get a great jump on the PR campaign.  Look how it helped Germany, with their Treaty of Versailles.  Germany signed it, then completely ignored it

I didn't say that did I, if so where. I'm sure there have been treaties signed that have withstood the sands of time. And i'm sure there are some that haven't. I am just surprised that you believe Hamas would rescind their objections to Israel and actually stick to it. Kind of like the soldiers in Iraq surrendered and didn't become insurgents or some such nonsense.

Quote
So in summation, there can be no peace.  Gotcha.  Sounds like a support for Israel to pre-emptively take out Hamas.  Since there can be no peace, that's the next best thing, I suppose

Rumor has it Israel has nukes, in case they are interested in settling it once and for all.



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 05:57:55 PM
Quote
So in summation, there can be no peace.  Gotcha.  Sounds like a support for Israel to pre-emptively take out Hamas.  Since there can be no peace, that's the next best thing, I suppose

Rumor has it Israel has nukes, in case they are interested in settling it once and for all.

Since there can be no peace, works for me
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 06:34:38 PM
welcome aboard
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 06:48:07 PM
My pleasure.  You've convinced me that there can be no peace, not even a starting point.  That all this diplomatic sophistry is mere exercising of one's diaphragm & vocal cords, no more than that.

By all means, you've convinced me that Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to do, however way they wish, to take out Hamas, and any organization that supports the call for Israel's destruction & death to any Jewish people.  Nuclear if necessary

Iran best watch out now
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 07:23:59 PM
My pleasure.  You've convinced me that there can be no peace, not even a starting point.  That all this diplomatic sophistry is mere exercising of one's diaphragm & vocal cords, no more than that.

By all means, you've convinced me that Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to do, however way they wish, to take out Hamas, and any organization that supports the call for Israel's destruction & death to any Jewish people.  Nuclear if necessary

Iran best watch out now

Now yer talkin'
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 25, 2011, 07:29:24 PM
...you've convinced me that Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to do, however way they wish, to take out Hamas, and any organization that supports the call for Israel's destruction & death to any Jewish people.  Nuclear if necessary

Iran best watch out now

Now yer talkin'

Looks like Eypt better, as well (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110525/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_gaza_border_3)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 25, 2011, 07:32:10 PM
?The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.? patton
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 26, 2011, 12:17:49 AM
Something here reminds me of Dr. Strangeloves complaint about the Soviet doom weapon, the super threat doesn't work as a secret, it doesn't even work as an actuality unless the threat is quite credable.

This also reminds me of the sheriff in "Blazing Saddles" who escapes threat by taking himself hostage.

Israel already has Nukes (I believe) but who is the prospective victim? Hard to believe in any Israeli plan to use atomic bombs on short range weapons. It would be like a nuclear war between the counties of Connecticut.

If the Palestinians also had Atomic bombs (conceiveable I think) I would guess that they would also be loath to use them close to home.

The Israelis sponsor (us) has had Atom bombs from the first and Pakistan which is quite sympathetic to Palestine has has an Islamic bomb for two decades. I don't suspect the leaders of the USA nor Pakistan of having plans to clean the slate in the holy land.

But this doesn't mean that Mutual Assured Destruction couldn't work.

Israel's ability to resist attack depends a lot on having a friend in the US , the Palestinians ability to fight depends on friendly governments and extra government friends sympathetic because of a common religion and resistance to loosing Jerusalem from Islamic controll.

A more likely and more credable threat would be atomic bombs hidden in the important cites of the US and Pakistan , Saudi Arabia , Iran and Egypt.

Sponsors are unwilling to cut back on support to the fighters right now , because ceasing to support just one side is practically choosing victory for the other side, but if everyone involved could be sure that the reduction was mutual there could be a reduction of support targeted on belligerent capability.

  With threats that the American people and the Islamic peoples could believe real behind the effort the US and the combined sponsors of Palestine could be forced to throw less gas onto the fire. Reduced sponsorship of belligerence ought to cause reduced reliance on violence, and threatened sponsors would encourage better behavior, every way possible.

 Since Bombs would be detonated in a sponsors territory based on the behavior of the sponsored , a disinterested party  would have to be sworn in as a credable and trustworthy avenger.  Maybe the UN? Maybe the Government of China?
Title: Why Palestinians Have Time on Their Side
Post by: Henny on May 26, 2011, 03:14:41 AM
Why Palestinians Have Time on Their Side
By Jeffrey Goldberg May 25, 2011 2:28 AM GMT+0300

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-24/why-palestinians-have-time-on-their-side.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-24/why-palestinians-have-time-on-their-side.html)

If I were a Palestinian (and, should there be any confusion on this point, I am not), and if I were the sort of Palestinian who believed that Israel should be wiped off the map, then I would be quite pleased with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu?s performance before Congress this morning.

I would applaud Netanyahu for including no bold initiatives that would have suggested to the world that Israel is alive to the threat posed by its seemingly eternal occupation of the West Bank.

In fact, I would make support for Netanyahu the foundation stone of my patient campaign to dismantle the world?s only majority-Jewish country. I would support not only Netanyahu, but the far-right parties of his governing coalition, the parties that seem uninterested in democracy and obsessed with planting more Jewish settlements on the West Bank.

The settlements would have my wholehearted backing. I would encourage my brother Palestinians to help build settlements at a brisk pace. I would ask the Israelis to build an even more intricate system of bypass roads on the West Bank that would connect Jewish settlements to one another and to Israel proper. I would ask my ostensible allies among the Arab nations to provide interest-free mortgages to Israelis in Tel Aviv, so they could move out to the settlements for some fresh air and a little more yard. And, while I was at it, I would insist that my leaders abort their campaign for United Nations recognition of an independent state of Palestine.

Entanglement

My goal: To hopelessly, ineradicably, entangle the two peoples wedged between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

Then I would wait as the Israeli population on the West Bank grew, and grew some more. I would wait until 2017, 50 years after the Six Day War, which ended with Israel in control of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. I would go before the UN and say the following:

"We, the Palestinians, no longer seek a homeland of our own. We recognize the permanence of Israeli occupation, the dominion of the Israeli military and the power of the Israeli economy. So we would like to join them. In the 50 years since the beginning of the ?temporary? occupation, we have seen hundreds of thousands of Israelis build communities near our own communities. We admire what they have built, and the system of laws that governs their lives. Unlike them, many of us live under Israeli military law but have no say in choosing the Israelis who rule us. So we no longer want statehood. We simply want the vote."

And this, of course, would bring about the end of Israel.

Apartheid State

(IMO from Henny: They're already almost all the way there... but also IMO, this is still a great commentary.)

Either the Jews of Israel would grant the Palestinians the vote, at which point their country would lose its Jewish majority and its identity as a refuge for the Jewish people, or it would deny them the vote, and become an apartheid state. The latter option is untenable, of course: Many Jewish Israelis would be repulsed by this thought; other nations that already consider Israel a pariah would now have just cause; and Israel would lose its last remaining friend, the U.S., because no American -- including and especially young American Jews -- would identify with a country reminiscent of pre-Mandela South Africa.

If Netanyahu had been thinking strategically, he might have realized this when he went before Congress this morning. And he might have done something bold: Acknowledge that the age of Jewish settlement is over. He did mention, fleetingly, that certain settlements would be set adrift in a theoretical peace deal. But he seemed unaware that he was delivering a speech that could easily have been given 10 years ago.

It is not 10 years ago. Israel is now 10 years closer to achieving full pariah status. And -- in part because the Palestinians lack the patience to pursue a strategy of gradual, irreversible entanglement -- a moment of truth for Israel is rapidly approaching.

UN Vote

The Palestinians are seeking a UN vote in September on independence. They will prevail in the General Assembly, though not in the Security Council. President Barack Obama, with whom Netanyahu just picked a fight, will have to spend a good amount of political capital to stymie the Palestinian campaign, even though he appears to have nothing but contempt for Netanyahu?s lack of vision.

But American opposition to this unilateral declaration will be in many ways immaterial. Israel will soon enough be seen by most of the world as the occupier not of disputed territory but of a foreign country. The Palestinians will wake up to find that a General Assembly vote did not, in fact, give them true independence. And then there will be an explosion.

The Palestinians who are watching Yemenis, Libyans and Syrians fighting for their freedom will soon be inspired to once again take up their own fight.

Existential Threats

Netanyahu, who understands the existential threat posed by Iran, does not seem to understand the nature of this other existential threat. His five predecessors as prime minister -- including Ariel Sharon, whose heart did not bleed for Palestinians -- understood it. President Obama understands it, too.

"The number of Palestinians living west of the Jordan River is growing rapidly and fundamentally reshaping the demographic realities of both Israel and the Palestinian territories," Obama told members of AIPAC, the pro-Israel lobbying group, on May 22. "This will make it harder and harder, without a peace deal, to maintain Israel as both a Jewish state and a democratic state."

An eternal truth of Middle East politics is that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Lately, though, this has become an Israeli specialty. If Israel misses the chance this year to set the Palestinians on a course toward independence, it will jeopardize its future as a Jewish democracy.

A Magnanimous Vision

Yes, it will be dangerous for Israel to return to its 1967 borders, or anything close. The potential merger between Hamas and the more moderate Fatah is cause for despair, but it should spur Netanyahu to try to split the moderates from the radicals by offering a magnanimous vision for peace. He should realize that it will be fatal for Israel to maintain control over millions of Palestinians who seek what the people of Yemen and Libya and Syria seek: freedom.

Absent any hope of progress, the Palestinians will do what they can to undermine Israel. But all they have to do is wait.

(Jeffrey Goldberg is a Bloomberg View columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 26, 2011, 03:48:31 AM
It's ok Miss Henny....I've been shown the light....there will be no peace, I'm afraid.   :'(    However I'll keep you and your family in my prayers for protection, always
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 26, 2011, 04:13:15 AM
It's ok Miss Henny....I've been shown the light....there will be no peace, I'm afraid.   :'(    However I'll keep you and your family in my prayers for protection, always

You know, there is a chance for peace.

I would like to present some recommended reading for my friends here. One sided? Yes - but the side you don't see in your news. The other side of the story.

Our Last Best Chance: The Pursuit of Peace in a Time of Peril
by King Abdullah II of Jordan

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Last-Best-Chance-Pursuit/dp/0670021717 (http://www.amazon.com/Our-Last-Best-Chance-Pursuit/dp/0670021717)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l1-GiVk1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 26, 2011, 10:12:46 AM
Jeffrey Goldberg has explained quite well why it is that Netanyahu is a dolt, as well as a jerk.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 26, 2011, 11:23:36 AM
Jeffrey Goldberg has explained quite well why it is that Netanyahu is a dolt, as well as a jerk.

yeah it's all Netanyahu...after all...there has been so much peace before BiBi!
and yeah Netanyahu is the bad guy to be cursed while people targeting schools are ignored!
 ::)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 26, 2011, 11:24:24 AM
It's ok Miss Henny....I've been shown the light....there will be no peace, I'm afraid.   :'(    However I'll keep you and your family in my prayers for protection, always

You know, there is a chance for peace.

It's been presented that its just not possible outside of a non-viable 3rd party nuclear deterrent.  And since that'll never, nor should it, be plausible, I'm afraid there will be no functional peace.  Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to, I'm afraid     :-\

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 26, 2011, 11:29:54 AM
No one is ignoring the dangerous toys that Hamas very occasionally hits a target with. However, Netanyahu is the one responsible for preventing meaningful negotiations with Fatah and therefore when his stalling plan succeeds, what Goldberg says will happen, will actually happen, and Netanyahu will get the blame and no one will remember the stupid rockets, which are an ineffective and stupid move on part of Hamas.

Israel says it will not talk with Hamas, but everyone and his Jack Russell terrier in Israel knows that secret talks with Hamas have been going on for years between Israel and Hamas.

All Israel can do is stall, stall, stall, until it is become an apartheid state or cease being a democratic one.

Eretz Israel as a Jewish state is a transitory affair.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 26, 2011, 11:37:44 AM
Israel can stand on its head, and and do nothing.....that doesn't prevent Fatah. Hamas, and the Palestinian people from getting their act together, and getting Hamas to remove from its charter the death of Israel

There will be no peace, when in a 2 state scenario, one of the parties, has as its governing mandate, the death of the other state.  Netanyahu did not put a gun to the Palestinians head to elect Hamas.  Nor did Rice.  So you can stop with the ignorant accusations that its somehow their fault Hamas is a governing arm of the Palestinians

Sorry, this effort to claim that its the Israeli's fault that talks have "stalled" is pretty bogus from the get go.  The starting point is with the Palestinians, not to mention the Arab neighbors.  And since Bt has made it abundantly clear that that won't happen, there'll be no peace
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 26, 2011, 12:47:16 PM
And since Bt has made it abundantly clear that that won't happen, there'll be no peace

======================================
BT is in charge of this now?

Does he know this?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 26, 2011, 01:14:26 PM
Actually, the Palestinians are in charge, and yes, he knows this
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 26, 2011, 01:53:57 PM
I imagine that King Abdullah's book would offer quite a bit of insight.

I note that the local library seems to have it, and will check it out.

Thanks, Henny.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 26, 2011, 02:20:55 PM
Agreed, on the 1 sided insight.  Ball still in Palestinians' court
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 27, 2011, 01:40:24 AM
It's ok Miss Henny....I've been shown the light....there will be no peace, I'm afraid.   :'(    However I'll keep you and your family in my prayers for protection, always

You know, there is a chance for peace.

It's been presented that its just not possible outside of a non-viable 3rd party nuclear deterrent.  And since that'll never, nor should it, be plausible, I'm afraid there will be no functional peace.  Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to, I'm afraid     :-\

Sirs, with all due respect, stop repeating the party line and please read the book. Get both sides of the story.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 27, 2011, 02:32:25 AM
With all due respect Miss Henny, it's not a party line......no more than the supposed calls of Jewish propoganda & ethnic clensing at the hands of Israel.  I've got a pretty good grasp of the current situation, including the dire straits the Palestinians find themselves in, and the fodder they've become at the hands of EVERYONE, not just Israel.  You even conceded the King's book was one sided.  Getting more of the 1 side isn't going to change the current state of what is

If I do find some extra time, I'll endeavor to check out more of that 1 side....for you.  But unfortunately, regardless of what & when I can get some reading time in, there will be no peace.  Bt has now convinced me of that............somewhat supported with your having missed answering a very serious question, I posed directly to you (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg125070/#msg125070), as a necessary starting point.  No one seemed to be able to answer that one.  In particular, should, at the very least, not the Palestinian leader stand before his people and say he is willing to accept an Israeli state, just as Netanyahu is saying he can accept a Palestinian one??
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 27, 2011, 04:37:56 AM
I said several times, sirs, that the Palestinian side must recognize the existence of the state Israel, and stop calling for its demise, as part of any solution. So don't say no one has answered that question.

As for having to try and find reading time? You spend enough time in here in a month to read the entire Tibetan Buddhist Nyingma School cannon. Which is, BTW, around the size of 120 large, hard cover, dictionaries.


BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 09:50:53 AM
Recognition of Israel for the Palestinians means recognizing that their lands were stolen, and they cannot return to live on them ever again. Recognition of Palestine for Israel means recognizing a puny state whose borders they control totally. It is hardly the same thing.

All we get in the US is Israeli propaganda on every part of the media.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 27, 2011, 10:05:38 AM
With all due respect Miss Henny, it's not a party line......no more than the supposed calls of Jewish propoganda & ethnic clensing at the hands of Israel.  I've got a pretty good grasp of the current situation, including the dire straits the Palestinians find themselves in, and the fodder they've become at the hands of EVERYONE, not just Israel.  You even conceded the King's book was one sided.  Getting more of the 1 side isn't going to change the current state of what is

No, I promise you, you have not seen the other side like this - especially not in your news. And it adds historical perspective starting with the King's father and all of the peace attempts that have gone in between. It then gradually brings you nearly to present day. It is really, really worth it. For me it was a summary of general knowledge, but incredibly well done.

If I do find some extra time, I'll endeavor to check out more of that 1 side....for you.  But unfortunately, regardless of what & when I can get some reading time in, there will be no peace.  Bt has now convinced me of that............somewhat supported with your having missed answering a very serious question, I posed directly to you (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg125070/#msg125070), as a necessary starting point.  No one seemed to be able to answer that one.  In particular, should, at the very least, not the Palestinian leader stand before his people and say he is willing to accept an Israeli state, just as Netanyahu is saying he can accept a Palestinian one??

Sorry, I skipped most of this debate deliberately because it made me incredibly angry.

Go back and review the Oslo Accords. The whole thing fell apart before that point was reached. Although technically the whole thing is still sitting on the table, so to speak.

But in short, even if it is not a satisfactory response for you: for the same reason the Native Americans didn't recognize the first American colonies as a state. For the same reason that you wouldn't recognize occupiers of California who threw you out of your home as a state.

While I personally see Israel as a state - they have been there my entire life, hard to go back on that kind of thinking - I don't think the Palestinians should recognize them as sh*t until their needs are recognized.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 27, 2011, 11:00:48 AM
Recognition of Israel means that terrorist organizations like Hamas have to stop threatening to push it into the ocean. If they can't do that.....fuck 'em. In the same breath, if Israel won't go back to its '67 boarders, fuck them also.

It's a two way street and it has to be grounded in present day reality. Sorry about the past, but that's over and done, now is now.

"If you want to see what your future conditions will be, look at your present actions." Buddha

BSB

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 27, 2011, 11:28:21 AM
With all due respect Miss Henny, it's not a party line......no more than the supposed calls of Jewish propoganda & ethnic clensing at the hands of Israel.  I've got a pretty good grasp of the current situation, including the dire straits the Palestinians find themselves in, and the fodder they've become at the hands of EVERYONE, not just Israel.  You even conceded the King's book was one sided.  Getting more of the 1 side isn't going to change the current state of what is

No, I promise you, you have not seen the other side like this - especially not in your news. And it adds historical perspective starting with the King's father and all of the peace attempts that have gone in between. It then gradually brings you nearly to present day. It is really, really worth it. For me it was a summary of general knowledge, but incredibly well done.

As I said, I have a pretty good grasp of both sides, and the fodder the Palestinians have become at the hands of EVERYONE in the region, Jordan included.   But as said, if I get some time off work, and some free time at home not connected to functions that have to be performed, I'll endeavor to look this book up..  It won't change what is, is, however


If I do find some extra time, I'll endeavor to check out more of that 1 side....for you.  But unfortunately, regardless of what & when I can get some reading time in, there will be no peace.  Bt has now convinced me of that............somewhat supported with your having missed answering a very serious question, I posed directly to you (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg125070/#msg125070), as a necessary starting point.  No one seemed to be able to answer that one.  In particular, should, at the very least, not the Palestinian leader stand before his people and say he is willing to accept an Israeli state, just as Netanyahu is saying he can accept a Palestinian one??

Sorry, I skipped most of this debate deliberately because it made me incredibly angry.

Go back and review the Oslo Accords. The whole thing fell apart before that point was reached. Although technically the whole thing is still sitting on the table, so to speak.

But in short, even if it is not a satisfactory response for you: for the same reason the Native Americans didn't recognize the first American colonies as a state. For the same reason that you wouldn't recognize occupiers of California who threw you out of your home as a state.

While I personally see Israel as a state - they have been there my entire life, hard to go back on that kind of thinking - I don't think the Palestinians should recognize them as sh*t until their needs are recognized.

You're right....I am a tad disappointed that the direct questions I posed to you were not  answered to my hope of peace.  But I suppose you did reinforce my overall conclusion, that there can be no peace, with even the most basic starting point as not being needed to be accomplished. 

In this supposed 2 state goal, so long as 1 state has on their agenda the death/destruction of the other state, I see no reason-what-so-ever for the state being targeted to make any effort to "negotiate" with that particular other state.  Regardless of how evil you think Israel has been.  As such, that position you've adopted provides Israel the latitude to do whatever it needs to protect itself and its very existance.....with an emphasis on the whatever      :-\
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 27, 2011, 11:32:28 AM
As for having to try and find reading time? You spend enough time in here in a month to read the entire Tibetan Buddhist Nyingma School cannon. Which is, BTW, around the size of 120 large, hard cover, dictionaries.


BSB

"In here" is a few minutes at a time, sprinkled thru-out the day.  I have MANY books on my agenda to read, and simply don't have that extra time to just sit and read.  I'm not a "read 1 paragragh at a time then leave to go do x", kinda guy.


Sirs
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 11:36:34 AM
The Library does have King Abdullahs' book, but it was listed as on a cart, and no one could find it.

Perhaps it will be there next week.

I do not see why it would have to be biased. I would not expect it to be pro-Israeli, but after all, Jordan has a peace arrangement with Israel.

Netanyahu is an extremist, even for an Israeli. He comes here and meddles in our politics like he owns the place.

The US press is extremely biased. I recall that Abdullah's father, King Hussein was routinely referred to in the US press as "The Little King", because he was, well, short. Menachim Begin was also vertically challenged,and yet no one called him "The Little Prime Minister", nor was Ariel Sharon even called  "Fatso Sharon", or  :The Obese Sharon" or "The porcine Prime Minister".

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 11:39:26 AM
For every Israeli killed by Palestinians, ELEVEN Palestinians have been killed by Israelis.

Yet Israel complains about poor security and will only accept a Palestine with no army.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 27, 2011, 01:31:48 PM
Source please.......and context on how they are "killed"

Not to mention that it changes nothing of the current reality
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 01:45:21 PM
They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

It comes down to this: 11 dead Palestinians for every dead Israelis.
I am pretty sure no one was killed with kindness.

Few were killed by Hamas rockets: three was what I heard, and several wounded.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 27, 2011, 02:08:17 PM
They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

You want credibility to your claim, you provide it yourself

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 03:37:22 PM
No one has ever provided adequate credibility to you in any post ever.

It is a waste of time to spoon-feed you.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 27, 2011, 03:43:37 PM
Weak, albeit transparent deflection effort.  Its your waste of credibility in claiming something that apparently you can't back-up
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 04:25:28 PM
Deflection again, your favorite word.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 27, 2011, 04:30:18 PM
Naaa....hypocrisy is.  Highlighting double standards and hypocrisy, is my favorite.  You can call calling out someone's perseverating deflection attempts more of a hobby or past-time.  As everyone, visitors including, who read these posts, have noted, you still have yet to back up your claim, and instead now perpetuating the deflection efforts, with still more efforts.  All the while your claim remains baseless and without context.

ergo, your credibility
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 27, 2011, 08:16:50 PM
What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

....since we're so hip on the land for the "promise of peace", I'll flip it.....for Hamas to remove from its charter, the death of Israel & every Jew, Israel will "promise to go back to 67borders"

Every Arab-Israeli negotiation contains a fundamental asymmetry: Israel gives up land, which is tangible; the Arabs make promises, which are ephemeral. The long-standing American solution has been to nonetheless urge Israel to take risks for peace while America balances things by giving assurances of U.S. support for Israel?s security and diplomatic needs.

It's on the basis of such solemn assurances that Israel undertook, for example, the Gaza withdrawal. In order to mitigate this risk, President George W. Bush gave a written commitment that America
- supported Israel absorbing major settlement blocs in any peace agreement,
- opposed any return to the 1967 lines
- and stood firm against the so-called Palestinian right of return to Israel.

For 2 1/2 years, the Obama administration has refused to recognize and reaffirm these assurances. Then last week in his State Department speech, President Obama definitively trashed them.  He declared that the Arab-Israeli conflict should indeed be resolved along "the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps."

Nothing new here, said Obama three days later. "By definition, it means that the parties themselves 'Israelis and Palestinians' will negotiate a border that is different" from 1967.

It means nothing of the sort. "Mutually" means both parties have to agree. And if one side doesn't? Then, by definition, you're back to the 1967 lines.

Nor is this merely a theoretical proposition. Three times the Palestinians have been offered exactly that formula, 1967 plus swaps- at Camp David 2000,
at Taba 2001,
and the 2008 Olmert-Abbas negotiations.
Every time, the Palestinians said no and walked away.

And that remains their position today: The 1967 lines. Period. Indeed, in September the Palestinians are going to the United Nations to get the world to ratify precisely that, a Palestinian state on the '67 lines. No swaps.

Note how Obama has undermined Israel's negotiating position. He is demanding that Israel go into peace talks having already forfeited its claim to the territory won in the '67 war, its only bargaining chip. Remember: That '67 line runs right through Jerusalem. Thus the starting point of negotiations would be that the Western Wall and even Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter are Palestinian, alien territory for which Israel must now bargain.

The very idea that Judaism's holiest shrine is alien or that Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter is rightfully or historically or demographically Arab is an absurdity. And the idea that, in order to retain them, Israel has to give up parts of itself is a travesty.

Obama didn't just move the goal posts on borders. He also did so on the so-called right of return. Flooding Israel with millions of Arabs would destroy the world's only Jewish state while creating a 23rd Arab state and a second Palestinian state, not exactly what we mean when we speak of a "two-state solution."  That's why it has been the policy of the United States to adamantly oppose this "right."

Yet in his State Department speech, Obama refused to simply restate this position, and refused again in a supposedly corrective speech three days later. Instead, he told Israel it must negotiate the right of return with the Palestinians after having given every inch of territory. Bargaining with what, pray tell?

No matter. "The status quo is unsustainable," declared Obama, "and Israel too must act boldly to advance a lasting peace."

Israel too?  Exactly what bold steps for peace have the Palestinians taken? Israel made three radically conciliatory offers to establish a Palestinian state, withdrew from Gaza and has been trying to renew negotiations for more than two years. Meanwhile, the Gaza Palestinians have been firing rockets at Israeli towns and villages. And on the West Bank, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas turns down then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's offer, walks out of negotiations with Binyamin Netanyahu and now defies the United States by seeking not peace talks but instant statehood, without peace, without recognizing Israel , at the United Nations. And to make unmistakable this spurning of any peace process, Abbas agrees to join the openly genocidal Hamas in a unity government, which even Obama acknowledges makes negotiations impossible.

Obama's response to this relentless Palestinian intransigence? To reward it, by abandoning the Bush assurances, legitimizing the '67 borders and refusing to reaffirm America's rejection of the right of return.

The only remaining question is whether this perverse and ultimately self-defeating policy is born of genuine antipathy toward Israel or of the arrogance of a blundering amateur who refuses to see that he is undermining not just peace but the very possibility of negotiations.

As has been demonstrated, there'll be no peace (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-obama-did-to-israel/2011/05/26/AGJfYJCH_story.html?nav=emailpage)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 10:40:47 PM
What is happening here is that Obama does not want to be the ONLY signatory to a statement in the UN denying Palestinian statehood.

The French seem to be in favor of Palestinian statehood, and so are the French people.

The British people also favor it, but the Tories probably don't.

Angela Merkel is convinced that Netanyahu is a prime dickhead (Note: she is correct in this assertion).

Most Europeans are in favor a=od a two-state solution, and therefore favor Palestinian statehood.

The US might be able to afford to buy a vote in Tonga or Micronesia, but we really can't afford to bribe a real country, like, say, the Philippines.

The Palestinians deserve to have their own state, no matter what Israel says or does.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 12:06:08 AM
And here's the kicker, Israel also supports a 2 state arrangement.  Pity that the other state in question, does not
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 28, 2011, 02:18:53 AM
Lets imagine that Palestine is established on the West Bank, borders are firm and independance is acheived.

Now what?

Will the US train their Army?  Better than letting Iraq get that contract, this should be in the treaty.


Will the US pay the cost of the Palestinian welfare state?  I imagine the new country electing socialists don't you? Whether they elect socialists or not US aid will be a major part of their budget, I bet we will be obligated by the peace treaty.

Will Isreal and Palistine be as good of neighbors as India and Packistan? Turkish Cyprus and Greek Cyprus? Balkin nations?Former Soviet Stans and Russia?   Meh....

Population is already dense , will Palestiinians farm and husband cattle on their small amount of farmland? Where are they getting water? If they drain the Jordan or deplete the water table they will not suffer alone.

I don't like the two state plans, the best you can hope to acheive is a miuneature of India and Packistan in their relationship , only with less ability to generate their own money and less water.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 28, 2011, 02:59:00 AM
They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

You want credibility to your claim, you provide it yourself

I'll jump in here. I don't know about the statistic XO gave - I think it came from an opinion commentary I posted by an Israeli - but here is some info. I don't know if it's 11 to 1, but it sure is a whole heck of a lot to 1:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp (http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp)

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 28, 2011, 03:03:55 AM
What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

....since we're so hip on the land for the "promise of peace", I'll flip it.....for Hamas to remove from its charter, the death of Israel & every Jew, Israel will "promise to go back to 67borders"

Every Arab-Israeli negotiation contains a fundamental asymmetry: Israel gives up land, which is tangible; the Arabs make promises, which are ephemeral. The long-standing American solution has been to nonetheless urge Israel to take risks for peace while America balances things by giving assurances of U.S. support for Israel?s security and diplomatic needs.


I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. What you miss when you don't follow carefully enough is this (ever since the assassination of Rabin, anyway):

-- Israel starts a mass settlement of occupied territories.

-- Palestinians call them on it.

-- Then Israel withdraws from the land and tries to use their withdrawal from that land as the basis to re-start the peace negotiation.

-- In the meantime, the Israelis start settlements on another piece of land.

These are very good reasons why I continue to maintain that you are only seeing the picture generated by your media.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 03:07:26 AM
They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

You want credibility to your claim, you provide it yourself

I'll jump in here. I don't know about the statistic XO gave - I think it came from an opinion commentary I posted by an Israeli - but here is some info. I don't know if it's 11 to 1, but it sure is a whole heck of a lot to 1:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp (http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp)

The claim, if I recall was Israeli KILLING Palestinians, as in targeted, as in UNPROVOKED, at the supposed rate of 11:1.  Not merely folks who have died, in particular, when in response to an act of war upon them.  I have no problem when a defending force kills more of those who tried to kill them, but failed at it.  Bt even produced the very accurate quote on war, the plan to kill more of them, then they of you.  And this is a war

But I applaud your effort to actually back up the claim, while Xo just waffled in the wind
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 28, 2011, 03:23:08 AM
They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

You want credibility to your claim, you provide it yourself

I'll jump in here. I don't know about the statistic XO gave - I think it came from an opinion commentary I posted by an Israeli - but here is some info. I don't know if it's 11 to 1, but it sure is a whole heck of a lot to 1:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp (http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp)

The claim, if I recall was Israeli KILLING Palestinians, as in targeted, as in UNPROVOKED, at the supposed rate of 11:1.  Not merely folks who have died, in particular, when in response to an act of war upon them.  I have no problem when a defending force kills more of those who tried to kill them, but failed at it.  Bt even produced the very accurate quote on war, the plan to kill more of them, then they of you.  And this is a war

But I applaud your effort to actually back up the claim, while Xo just waffled in the wind

But unfortunately, he was right that you wouldn't accept any statistic.  :-[ 

Like I said when i first walked away from this thread - Arabs aren't human. Kill them all, no one cares.  :-X
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 03:23:23 AM
What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

....since we're so hip on the land for the "promise of peace", I'll flip it.....for Hamas to remove from its charter, the death of Israel & every Jew, Israel will "promise to go back to 67borders"

Every Arab-Israeli negotiation contains a fundamental asymmetry: Israel gives up land, which is tangible; the Arabs make promises, which are ephemeral. The long-standing American solution has been to nonetheless urge Israel to take risks for peace while America balances things by giving assurances of U.S. support for Israel?s security and diplomatic needs.


I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. What you miss when you don't follow carefully enough is this (ever since the assassination of Rabin, anyway):

-- Israel starts a mass settlement of occupied territories.

Nooooo, that is incomplete.  Israel starts a mass settlement of occupied territories, that it took during a war, in which those territories were being used to attack Israel from.  They had every right to settle those territories, following the war, in which Arab nations attempted to push Israel into the sea, from.

Now, we can go from there


-- Palestinians call them on it.

Irrelevent.....it's Israel's land.  It's like Mexico calling us on California


-- Then Israel withdraws from the land and tries to use their withdrawal from that land as the basis to restart the peace negotiation.

-- In the meantime, the Israelis start settlements on another piece of land.

Again, its Israel's land, though I agree it wasn't smart to start new settlements.  There should've been a freeze, but its still their land.  NOT STOLEN


These are very good reasons why I continue to maintain that you are only seeing the picture generated by your media.

Putting aside for the moment, the MSM bias that actually tries to reinforce your POV,  the rationalizations you are using to not even support a starting point for a peace to occur is a good reason why I continue to maintain that you are only seeing the picture generated by your predisposed dislike of Israel.  I respect the heck out of you Miss Henny, perhaps more than anyone here in the saloon.  I do think your predisposition of how evil Israel is supposed to be here, is tainting your judgement however
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 03:40:43 AM
The claim, if I recall was Israeli KILLING Palestinians, as in targeted, as in UNPROVOKED, at the supposed rate of 11:1.  Not merely folks who have died, in particular, when in response to an act of war upon them.  I have no problem when a defending force kills more of those who tried to kill them, but failed at it.  Bt even produced the very accurate quote on war, the plan to kill more of them, then they of you.  And this is a war

But I applaud your effort to actually back up the claim, while Xo just waffled in the wind

But unfortunately, he was right that you wouldn't accept any statistic.  :-[ 

Ok, how is my accepting the statistics you provided as not accepting them??    ???   You provided stats.  The context of which is the issue.  Does it demonstrate that Israel is effectively killing Palestinians?  Yea. 
Is it occurring in war?  Yea, that too. 
Is it occurring most frequently in response to attacks upon Israel?  Yea, looks like that too. 

How is that not accepting them??


Like I said when i first walked away from this thread - Arabs aren't human. Kill them all, no one cares.  :-X

Ok, now you're just talking crazy, since I'm not the one advocating nuclear destruction of everyone in the region, if everyone doesn't play nice-nice.  I actually want peace, but its been made clear to me now, from this thread, and from those on both sides of the issue, that it won't happen.  One side makes it clear that the Palestinians governing body of Hamas, can not be expected to adhere to any peace agreement, while the other side demonstrates too much irrational justification as to why Israel can't even be recognized and accepted in the region. 

For some, not necessarily yourself, the Israelis apparently just too evil, and their survival is just too much for some folks to bare.  No place to negotiate a "2 state" existence, from there
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 28, 2011, 05:42:27 AM
Of course killing more of them than they kill of you doesn't guarantee a victory. If you're in an infantry company, however, and you want a better chance at being alive when the war is over, it's a good philosophy to have though. I give it a thumbs up.

BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 28, 2011, 08:12:58 AM
Like I said when i first walked away from this thread - Arabs aren't human. Kill them all, no one cares.  :-X

  That is a problem.

   For the sake of self respect we ought not be that way, being aware of this as a root cause , what can be done?

   Whatever can be done , is there any use in doing it unilaterally?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 28, 2011, 09:55:53 AM
The point is that the Palestinians have died at the ratio of 11 to 1, and yet it is the Israelis, which a huge army and nuclear weapons, that are squawkimng about "security", when it is obvious that the Palestinians are 11 times  less secure.

Netanyahu CLAIMS that he wants a two-state solution, but every time they negotiate, one of the asshole right wing groups in his coalition enlarges a settlement, takes over a neighborhood, or does something else that is designed to piss off the Palestinians.

Netanyahu SAYS what he says, because it it what the UN demands. But he has done all that he can to prevent ANY negotiations and ANY settlement, because, as I have pointed out, he is a dickhead.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 28, 2011, 10:19:58 AM
You'd have to have been living in a cave, or wasting too much time on some debate forum asking for verification of the obvious, not to realize that Israel has killed a greater number of Palistians, and their allies, than the number of Israelis the Palistians, and their allies, have killed.

Further, lets not forget, Israel had no problem defending its '67 borders. In fact they kicked ass while doing it.

BSB

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 28, 2011, 10:27:01 AM
The point is that the Palestinians have died at the ratio of 11 to 1, and yet it is the Israelis, which a huge army and nuclear weapons, that are squawkimng about "security", when it is obvious that the Palestinians are 11 times  less secure.

Netanyahu CLAIMS that he wants a two-state solution, but every time they negotiate, one of the asshole right wing groups in his coalition enlarges a settlement, takes over a neighborhood, or does something else that is designed to piss off the Palestinians.

Netanyahu SAYS what he says, because it it what the UN demands. But he has done all that he can to prevent ANY negotiations and ANY settlement, because, as I have pointed out, he is a dickhead.
If Egyptias and Jordanian soldiers are added in the ratio might be worse than that.

As has already been pointed out Isrelis are outnumbered , if the ratio of casualtys "improved" to five or six to one Isreal might loose one of these fights.

Is that the point?
Should the bigger side have a right to win?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 28, 2011, 10:49:26 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/t/egypt-permanently-opens-g_1_74468776107708416.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/t/egypt-permanently-opens-g_1_74468776107708416.html)

Here is a development.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 28, 2011, 11:16:05 AM
The point is that the side least threatened has the least reason to constantly claim that they are insecure.

Look at a map: Israel could be secure only if it were moved. The middle of the Pacific might be a better location. No one bothers Tonga much.

The Jews were not conquered so many times because of any conspiracy, they were just stubborn about being in everyone's way.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 11:35:06 AM
The point is that the Palestinians have died at the ratio of 11 to 1

Ahhh, interesting, we've moved from a claim of Israel just out and out killing Palestinians, to Palestinians merely dying in greater #'s.  To which I don't believe anyone is disagreeing with, so its kind of a moot point, once the context of the claim had been addressed


and yet it is the Israelis, which a huge army and nuclear weapons, that are squawkimng about "security"

Good thing then, since they are outnumbered at a ratio probably greater than 11:1


Netanyahu CLAIMS that he wants a two-state solution

While the Palestinians walk away every time one is tried.  Add to that the same folks here even justifying why the Palestinian leader need not even recognize Israel's right to exist, While Nentanayu publically recognizes Palistinians' rghts, in a 2 state scenario


Netanyahu SAYS what he says, because it it what the UN demands. But he has done all that he can to prevent ANY negotiations and ANY settlement, because, as I have pointed out, he is a dickhead.

Quite the opposite, since at this point, the starting point is with the Palestinians
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 11:35:20 AM
You'd have to have been living in a cave, or wasting too much time on some debate forum asking for verification of the obvious, not to realize that Israel has killed a greater number of Palistians, and their allies, than the number of Israelis the Palistians, and their allies, have killed.

You know, I grasp the notion how in war, its getting more of the enemy to die for their country/cause, then that of your own.  Yet, here, its a condemnation.  How dare the israelis be better at it.  They need to die just as equally      ::)


Further, lets not forget, Israel had no problem defending its '67 borders. In fact they kicked ass while doing it.

BSB

And let's not forget that strategic locations of land that offer better defensive positions, make surviving/defending easier, and less casualty potential.  You, of all people, should know that

Sirs
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 11:37:13 AM
The Jews were not conquered so many times because of any conspiracy, they were just stubborn about being in everyone's way.

WOW     :o
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 28, 2011, 12:37:12 PM
There are no actual possible defensible borders in Palestine/Israel, other than shallow streams and some hills.

Israeli was conquered by nearly everyone in the area at least once. Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Turks, British and others.


The goal of the two-state process is to have two states that will not attack one another.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 12:43:06 PM
The goal is unattainable, so long as one of those states, has as a governing mandate the destruction and death of the other state.  End of story
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 28, 2011, 01:19:40 PM
Well I'm glad you agree with both my points.

A) The Israelis have out killed the Palestinians. And, btw, probably by a lot more than 11 to 1. Generally you do kill a lot more people when you go into a densely populated area with roman plows, high speed 50s, gunships, and fast movers, as opposed to lobbing in a few rockets now and then.  Funny how that works.

B) They had no problem defending their '67 borders, even when being attacked from several different directions at the same time. So they can go right back to the borders they had when Israel was first formed without missing a beat. 

BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 01:24:06 PM
A) Was not in dispute, as soon as the context of the "killings" was provided, and the fact that a state of war still exists

B) They'll have even less problem defending from the territories they aquired, the last time they were attacked from those same territories --> less potential death of those troops and especially the citizenry

Sirs
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 28, 2011, 02:35:57 PM
They'll have even less problem defending from the territories they aquired, the last time they were attacked from those same territories --> less potential death of those troops and especially the citizenry

====================================
This makes no actual sense.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 02:41:42 PM
For someone that doesn't understand anything about war and defensive positions, perhaps.  If you have the means to project your defensive boundry further out, thus keeping the enemy further away, especially from your population centers, --> less likely hood of death, to both soldiers, but more so civilians.  Made even more so if its higher ground, that you're defending from

It's kind of a common sense/logic thing, so I can understand why you might not get it
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 28, 2011, 04:10:03 PM
The syntax of your sentence is so confused that it makes no sense.

The West Bank is heavily populated. There is no way to put space between cities there.

If there are two states in this area, there is no way either will have "invasion proof borders".

Any country can be invaded with aircraft and drones.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 04:35:35 PM
Hopefully the clarity and common sense applied, cleared up your confusion

And no, no one is claiming anything of the kind, as it relates to a "invasion proof border".  That would be referred to as........drum roll........a deflection.  The issues is that the further one's boundry is from one's population center, the better defended that population center becomes. 

Think of it, this way, that even someone as uninformed in military doctrine & tactics, as even you appear to be, its harder to kill civilians when you're launching rockets miles upon miles away, vs few hundred yards.  Its harder to kill civilians period when you're kept further away from them.  Not to mention its easier to defend from higher positions, then from a low position.  Its why you'd want to have look-out posts and defensive shooting positions up high, and now down at ground level
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 28, 2011, 07:21:49 PM
Just look at a map of Israel and the West Bank. There can be no borders more defensible there  than between Massachusetts,  Rhode Island and Connecticut. Netanyahu is just sending up another of the smokescreens that he uses to avoid any real negotiations.

This is, as I pointed out, because he is a dickhead.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 07:44:26 PM
The issue isn't about a defensible vs a non-defensible border, NEAR as much as what is a better defensible border.....1 that is close to population centers, like Jerulesem, or one that is farther away?  One that is right next to it, or one that is on much higher ground as well as farther away?
 
For those with faulty logic circuits, it would be the latter

When the Palestinans get Hamas to remove from its charter the death of the state they wish to "co-exist" with, then real negotiations can start

And last time I looked, RI wasn't lobbing any rockets into Connecticut either.  If they were, Connecticut would want their own version of a West Bank, to push the launching of those rockets further away
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 28, 2011, 08:47:36 PM
I think Israel should cling to what lands it holds in anticipation of the UN vote declaring Palestinian statehood, so that when they finally do negotiate they do so with a weakened hand.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 28, 2011, 09:00:37 PM
As I said, if Israel does not negotiate, it is doomed.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 29, 2011, 12:07:12 AM
As I said, if Israel does not negotiate, it is doomed.

If it does negotiate it is doomed?

What about negotiation would prevent doom?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 02:01:00 AM
If Israel can negotiate a peace with the Palestinians, there will not be a likelihood that Arabs outnumber them in the territory they control.Palestinians are among the best educated Arabs and the West Bank is becoming rather prosperous as a result of their labor. When people become prosperous,they want to send their children to college, which is expensive, so they tend to have many fewer children.

Of course, the idea of a state based on one religion is a really bad idea, and is just as bad for the Israelis as it is for the Muslims, so I do not see this persisting for more than another 50 years or so.

Negotiation would bring harmony and cooperation, a decrease in the birthrate,and less of a depletion of water and other resources.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 29, 2011, 10:21:31 AM
I think you had it when you pointed out that the two nations will be theocratic .

Both theocracys think that possession of Jeruslem is important.


I don't understand why you think that diplomacy can serve for birth controll, that hasn't been my experience with b.c. at all.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 02:24:11 PM
As I said, if Israel does not negotiate, it is doomed.

Actually, the reality is if the Palestinians don't negotiate, Peace is doomed
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 02:50:52 PM
If Israel becomes an unfit place to live,the Israelis, being prosperous, will simply leave, one at a time, like the Israeli mechanic that fixes my car. Palestinians have a lesser chance of doing this, because they lack money and connections.

Most years, more Israelis come to the US from Israel than vice versa. I think that this is also true of Canada, Chile and Australia.
 

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 03:04:22 PM
If Israel becomes an unfit place to live,the Israelis, being prosperous, will simply leave, one at a time, like the Israeli mechanic that fixes my car.

Anything's possible.  I wouldn't recommend you betting the farm on that one though


Most years, more Israelis come to the US from Israel than vice versa. I think that this is also true of Canada, Chile and Australia.

*snicker* many of whom come for a "wretched capitalist healthcare"  Go figure
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 04:00:57 PM
I do not think many, and certainly not most, come here for health care.
Israel, being a Jewish country, does not lack for good doctors. If you are a relative, I am sure you can get a really good deal.

I have know Israeli-Americans who have gone to Tel Aviv for heart surgery and facelifts.They came back more frisky and pretty, too.

It might be that more go there for medical treatment than come here. It is cheaper there.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 05:05:49 PM
Given my connection with the Healthcare industry, its far more likely that more come here for their medical treatment, than go there.  It's better, more comprehensive, and faster here
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 06:09:24 PM
That does not mean that more Israelis come here than go there. Medical care in Israel is free to citizens. We do not do free here. I question that Israelis come here to see you in sufficient quantities to tip the balance.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 29, 2011, 06:28:32 PM
(http://www.superchefblog.com/images/washingtonpost_300dpi299x55pxl.png)

What Obama did to Israel

By Charles Krauthammer

May 26, 2011

Every Arab-Israeli negotiation contains a fundamental asymmetry: Israel gives up land, which is tangible; the Arabs make promises, which are ephemeral. The long-standing American solution has been to nonetheless urge Israel to take risks for peace while America balances things by giving assurances of U.S. support for Israel?s security and diplomatic needs.

It's on the basis of such solemn assurances that Israel undertook, for example, the Gaza withdrawal. In order to mitigate this risk, President George W. Bush gave a written commitment that America supported Israel absorbing major settlement blocs in any peace agreement, opposed any return to the 1967 lines and stood firm against the so-called Palestinian right of return to Israel.
 
President Barack Obama warned America's pro-Israel lobby on Sunday that the Jewish state will face growing isolation without a credible Middle East peace process. (May 22)

For 2 years, the Obama administration has refused to recognize and reaffirm these assurances. Then last week in his State Department speech, President Obama definitively trashed them. He declared that the Arab-Israeli conflict should indeed be resolved along ?the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps.?

Nothing new here, said Obama three days later. "By definition, it means that the parties themselves, Israelis and Palestinians, will negotiate a border that is different from 1967".

It means nothing of the sort. "Mutually" means both parties have to agree. And if one side doesn't? Then, by definition, you're back to the 1967 lines.

Nor is this merely a theoretical proposition. Three times the Palestinians have been offered exactly that formula, 1967 plus swaps, at Camp David 2000, Taba 2001, and the 2008 Olmert-Abbas negotiations. Every time, the Palestinians said no and walked away.

And that remains their position today: The 1967 lines. Period. Indeed, in September the Palestinians are going to the United Nations to get the world to ratify precisely that  a Palestinian state on the '67 lines. No swaps.

Note how Obama has undermined Israel's negotiating position. He is demanding that Israel go into peace talks having already forfeited its claim to the territory won in the '67 war, its only bargaining chip. Remember: That '67 line runs right through Jerusalem. Thus the starting point of negotiations would be that the Western Wall and even Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter are Palestinian, alien territory for which Israel must now bargain.

The very idea that Judaism's holiest shrine is alien or that Jerusalem?s Jewish Quarter is rightfully or historically or demographically Arab is an absurdity. And the idea that, in order to retain them, Israel has to give up parts of itself is a travesty.

Obama didn't just move the goal posts on borders. He also did so on the so-called right of return. Flooding Israel with millions of Arabs would destroy the world?s only Jewish state while creating a 23rd Arab state and a second Palestinian state, not exactly what we mean when we speak of a "two-state solution." That's why it has been the policy of the United States to adamantly oppose this "right."

Yet in his State Department speech, Obama refused to simply restate this position and refused again in a supposedly corrective speech three days later. Instead, he told Israel it must negotiate the right of return with the Palestinians after having given every inch of territory. Bargaining with what, pray tell?

No matter. "The status quo is unsustainable," declared Obama, "and Israel too must act boldly to advance a lasting peace."

Israel too?

Exactly what bold steps for peace have the Palestinians taken? Israel made three radically conciliatory offers to establish a Palestinian state, withdrew from Gaza and has been trying to renew negotiations for more than two years. Meanwhile, the Gaza Palestinians have been firing rockets at Israeli towns and villages. And on the West Bank, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas turns down then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's offer, walks out of negotiations with Binyamin Netanyahu and now defies the United States by seeking not peace talks but instant statehood without peace, without recognizing Israel  at the United Nations. And to make unmistakable this spurning of any peace process, Abbas agrees to join the openly genocidal Hamas in a unity government, which even Obama acknowledges makes negotiations impossible.

Obama's response to this relentless Palestinian intransigence? To reward it by abandoning the Bush assurances, legitimizing the ?67 borders and refusing to reaffirm America's rejection of the right of return.

The only remaining question is whether this perverse and ultimately self-defeating policy is born of genuine antipathy toward Israel or of the arrogance of a blundering amateur who refuses to see that he is undermining not just peace but the very possibility of negotiations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-obama-did-to-israel/2011/05/26/AGJfYJCH_story.html?nav=emailpage (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-obama-did-to-israel/2011/05/26/AGJfYJCH_story.html?nav=emailpage)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 07:49:50 PM
Krauthammer is a pro-Zionist hack. Forget him.

What the President said, that they state with 1967 boundaries and mutually agreed upon land swaps, has ALWAYS been the position of the US. Nothing has changed, that is where they left off last time, before Rubin got shot by some Israeli fanatic. Let them start negotiating. Netanyahu wants to start off with the Palestinians giving up even MORE land, apparently, and he puts on this stupid grotesque dog and pony show and puts on a big phony act.



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 29, 2011, 07:56:32 PM
Krauthammer is a pro-Zionist hack. Forget him.

And you are an anti-Israel hack. I'd rather forget you!
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 07:56:39 PM
What the President said, that they state with 1967 boundaries and mutually agreed upon land saps, has ALWAYS been the position of the US.

NO, IT'S NOT.  IT'S BEEN MADE ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THAT A REVERSION TO THE 67 BORDERS WAS NEVER A STARTING BLOCK WITH THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATIONS, INCLUDING CLINTON.  I'm going to leave the rest of your .... either a) lying or b) ignorance alone for now



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 07:57:39 PM
(http://www.superchefblog.com/images/washingtonpost_300dpi299x55pxl.png)

What Obama did to Israel

By Charles Krauthammer

May 26, 2011

Great post C.  Looks strangely similar to this one though (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/obama-throws-israel-under-the-bus/msg125313/#msg125313)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 08:15:04 PM
Tough sh!t.
The truth is that they HAVE to start with a discussion of all the conquered lands, because the Palerstinians have agreed to give up NOTHING.

Netanyahu needs to be set packing with no aid at all until he learns to behave.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 08:31:00 PM
The truth is THE PALESTINIANS HAVE TO START.....with removing their current governing charter of the death of the other state they wish to be a part of the 2 state deal with

So no, no more "lands for a promise of peace".  It starts now...tangible for tangible, or there IS NO PEACE

and FYI, I have no problem if all aide to all the ME stops
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 09:32:36 PM
Being as the Palestinians have nothing to give the the Israelis other than a promise, and no promise can ever be tangible, that will not work.

The Israelis have it all, so it is their turn to put something on the table.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 02:43:09 AM
Being as the Palestinians have nothing to give the the Israelis other than a promise.


No, there is something exceedingly tangible....THE LITERAL REMOVAL in the current governing charter, death to Israel.  Not to mention the President of the Palestinians can publically declare, for all to see, the right for Israel to exist, right next to a Palestinian state.  Let's see THAT PUBLIC PROMISE


The Israelis have it all, so it is their turn to put something on the table.

Nope....wrong....ball in Palestinans court.  No more land for a mere "promise".  Time for the Palestinians, and the Arab neighbors for that matter, to put up, shut up, or take arms.  Their choice
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 30, 2011, 09:42:20 AM
Farid Esack Open Letter to the Palestinian People (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1skU_nVaMl8#)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 11:11:41 AM
First, Farid Esack's message was great. I hope it brings results. Apartheid in Israel is different, in some ways worse than in S. Africa

Second, as I recall, not only did the PLO, through Yassir Arafat recognize Israel's right to exist, Arafat and Begin got a Nobel Prize for this. Now Netanyahu and a swarm of ignorant goons have moved the entire affair back a couple of decades so that Israel can grab off more land. THis is simply a stall, as Netanyahu has no intentions of negotiating anything.

Unless, of course, he is pressured, which I hope he will be soon. We really really have had enough of this schmuck.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 11:32:47 AM
Funny how the supposed land for peace promise arrangement, is now how Israel wants supposedly wants "more land".  I know this is a wasted question, given the poster, but pray tell, what/where's this proof that Israel wants "more land"?  Your say so, isn't going to cut it.  Your declaring that someone else find it for you, isn't going to cut it either

And btw Miss Henny, nice video, even if it is 1 sided.  Definately not a starting point for peace, & in fact, it appears to be a call for more resistance (read injury & death).  Good thing Israel already has the better defensible lands it took the last time the Arab nations & peoples attempted to push Israel into the sea
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 12:26:22 PM
What the President said, that they state with 1967 boundaries and mutually agreed upon land saps, has ALWAYS been the position of the US.

NO, IT'S NOT.  IT'S BEEN MADE ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THAT A REVERSION TO THE 67 BORDERS WAS NEVER A STARTING BLOCK WITH THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATIONS, INCLUDING CLINTON.  I'm going to leave the rest of your .... either a) lying or b) ignorance alone for now

(http://images.onset.freedom.com/ocregister/gallery/llvkml-b78801851z.120110527151321000gi5vlmji.1.jpg)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 12:50:50 PM
If Obama had said that talks would restart where talks with Clinton and Rabin had left off, i hardly think Netanyahu would have agreed to that.

In fact, if you look at what Rabin's and VClinton's talks ended, that WAS 1967 borders with land swaps.

Note that Netanyahu said what he would not accept, but said NOTHING about what he would accept.

Could Israel be more secure with LESS land than it has now?

I don't think he meant that.

Could Israel be more secure with the SAME AMOUNT of land?
Well, THAT could easily be the 9167 borders with mutually agreed upon land swaps.

Or did he really mean that Israel could only be secure with MORE land than it grabbed in 1967?

Less? The same amount? More? Which did he mean?

Or did he merely mean that he does not want to seriously negotiate at all. Perhaps because Palestinians do not actually exist.

One of these has to be the answer. Which could it be?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 01:08:10 PM
FACT REMAINS, that in no other adminstration prior to Obama's, which IIRC also incl Carter's, NO PRESIDENT was referenced that Israel needed to return to its 67borders as a prerequisate for any negotiations

Facts remain a staunch obstacle in your anti-Israeli rhetoric, including any proof of the claim that Israel wants even "more land"
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 01:15:01 PM
Seems the only thing both sides in this forum (excluding Henny) have agreed upon is that aid to the Middle east should stop. It would be interesting to see what road that leads to when when it does stop.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 01:16:45 PM
Indeed.  Though that should mean it all stops
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 01:18:47 PM
NO PRESIDENT was referenced that Israel needed to return to its 67borders as a prerequisite for any negotiations

And NEITHER DID OBAMA. He said Pre-1967 borders with MUTUALLY AGREED LAND SWAPS. That is NOT the same.


proof of the claim that Israel wants even "more land"

Okay, do they want the SAME AMOUNT OF LAND? Well, that could be seen as "the 1967 borders with mutually agreed land swaps". I see that this could include more or less territory for either side as well. The only condition is that both sides agree on the deal.
]
Do they want LESS land? I do not think that is what Netanyahu meant.

So of it is not the same amount of land or less land, what is left?

There are only three possibilities: more, the same amount or less.

Note that Netanyahu did not say what his conditions were. He just threw a huge hissy fit to show that he could cower our Congress into a bunch of whimpering toadies. I suppose that sells big back in Israel, but it is hardly the image that I like to see my country exporting.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 01:24:56 PM
Aid to Israel and Palestine should stop. But I do not see this happening. It is more complicated than it seems on the surface.

Does that mean that American Jews will be barred from donating money to Israel? Or perhaps that such money will no longer be tax deductible?

Of course, there is the Muslim requirement for alms to the poor. Would that mean that the Saudi government could not donate to Palestine? What about Saudi individuals? Would Palestinians working in the Gulf be barred from sending a check to their mother?

And then there is Egypt. Should Egypt be bribed to close the Raffah border as before?



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 01:27:36 PM
Obama declared that's where it had to begin, Obama declared that peace can't start without that pre-requisate.  NO OTHER PRESIDENT HAS MADE THAT DEMAND.  Floating ideas is not mandating what needs to happen 1st

And the kicker is that NONE OF THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN 1ST.  The 500lb death to Israel gorilla mandate in the room is what needs to be dealt with 1st

And thanks again for demonstrating ZERO proof of the notion that Israel wants even "more land".  The "6 steps from Kevin Bacon" irrational rationalization tactic, isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 01:28:12 PM
It means all US Government Aid to Israel and Palestine should stop.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 01:32:31 PM
all means all
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 01:38:22 PM
And thanks again for demonstrating ZERO proof of the notion that Israel wants even "more land".  The "6 steps from Kevin Bacon" irrational rationalization tactic, isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid

So which is it?

More land or less land.

The same amount of land could EASILY be the 1967 borders with mutually agreed land swaps. That is a VERY FLEXIBLE statement, especially because of the term MUTUALLY AGREED UPON.
===========================
As for the "death to Israel" bit, as I said, Begin and arafat got a Nobel Prize for agreeing to recognize Israel's right to exist/
The Israelis say that they will never negotiate with terrorists, but the FACT IS that they have been holding secret talks with Hamas for years. So that is horsesh!t as well.

What is it that Netanyahu wants, other than to show that the US Congress is a cowering assortment of whimpering toadies?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 01:46:13 PM
And yet still no proof of Israel wants more land, despite the (ir)rationalization somersaults. 

What they clearly want is to be left alone, and that doesn't require any land, more or less.  And until the gorilla is dealt with, the status-quo of no land is preferred
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 02:06:06 PM
That is not what Netanyahu said. Everyone knows that the PLO has recognized Israel's right to exist.

Netanyahu simply threw a tantrum to prevent any negotiations at all.

What will happen is that the UN will have a vote on the issue of Palestinian independence, and our whimpering, subservient Congress will be forced by AIPAC to veto it, and our country will have to take the blame. Naturally, you will blame Obama. But he is trying to do what Juniorbush refused to do, which is to get talks going again.

The Arab world is changing, and the US should do all it can to support self-determination everywhere. This includes Palestine.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 02:26:59 PM
We're talking about NOW, Xo.  Right NOW, the Palestinians and Hamas do NOT recognize Isreal's right to exist....the other "state", in this supposed 2 state utopia.   That is ongoing, and until THAT changes, Israel doesn't need to do squat.  Just hunker down and reinforce the lands they do have

And FYI, if the U.S. vetos a Palestinian state resolution, I'll only "blame" Obama if it included a recognition of Isreal's sovereign right to exist and need to address the Anti-israel charter, within the Hamas portion of the Palestinian's Government.  If it was just the latest in Anti-Semetic, pro-Palestinian pandering out of the UN, I'll gladly applaud his veto
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 02:41:12 PM
all means all

That is meaningless. How do you stop private donations? Isn't money speech?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 03:11:34 PM
Lemme clarify....Governments
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 03:20:00 PM
Lemme clarify....Governments

And that differs from my statement , how?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 03:22:59 PM
You seem to want to make it U.S. Government alone.  I'm referring to all Governments
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 03:27:16 PM
You seem to want to make it U.S. Government alone.  I'm referring to all Governments

What control do we have over other governments donations and aid giving?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 03:57:08 PM
None.  If all agree, none is provided.  All is all (and no, I'm again not referring to private donations, so you can cease in implying that route)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 04:19:47 PM
Seems like you are setting conditions that are destined to fail as we have no control over what other sovereign countries do.

Best to concentrate on the things we as voters can control.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 04:21:41 PM
Not at all.......advocation is advocation.  I for one, don't support unilateral disarmament.  Never have
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 05:05:23 PM
I agree that the US could cut off all aid, at least in theory. How we could get the Saudis, the Kuwaitis, the Brits, and everyone else to do so seems very problematical.

Getting the US to deny aid to Israel ( even if it included cutting off aid to Palestine) would be an extreme radical departure from current policy: far more extreme than just telling Netanyahu that the talks should be about pre-1967 borders with mutually agreed land swaps". Israels' budget depends on handouts from the US.

The latter sounds to me as perfectly reasonable. Note please that Netanyahu did not choose to define what he actually DID want.

Other than to show the folks back home that our Congress is a whimpering bunch of toadies, that is.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 05:12:51 PM
"deny" tends to imply that aide is supposed/expected to be provided.  Since its neither, I'd opine that its the wrong word to use
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on May 30, 2011, 07:24:52 PM
"deny" tends to imply that aide is supposed/expected to be provided...."


If you're talking about our aide to Israel, it is both supposed and expected. We've been in bed with Israel since 1948. Of course the expect our aide.

As I've said several times. They've had 60 years to straighten this out. They haven't. Why continue to throw good money after bad? I don't run my affairs that why. You, and your conservative friends, don't like doing it when it comes to what you perceive as failing social programs. Why do it for Israel? Why do it for some country who sends their leader over here only to publicly lecture the President of the United States? It's time to cut bait.  There is nothing special about Israel anymore. Those days are gone. 


BSB

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 07:37:50 PM
"deny" tends to imply that aide is supposed/expected to be provided.  Since its neither, I'd opine that its the wrong word to use

=========================
Yeah, right. Every Channukah, the US ambassador pops into Netanyahu's office with a package, and Bibi opens is and says "Look what those nice Americans gave us! Four billion dollars and five jet fighters! Awwww, you shouldn't have!"

The US gave Israel $89 billion up through 2004. my opinion is that they have come to expect money, anfd they wpould agree that "deny" would be an entirely accurate word to describe what we would do if we cut them off.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 11:57:14 PM
Not really
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 31, 2011, 12:09:49 AM
Seems the only thing both sides in this forum (excluding Henny) have agreed upon is that aid to the Middle east should stop. It would be interesting to see what road that leads to when when it does stop.

Henny agrees to that, as long as it includes Israel.

But fat chance - G8 pledged to give 20 Billion just to Egypt and Tunisia. A heft chunk of that will be US tax dollars.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on May 31, 2011, 12:50:14 AM
Quote
Breakout Kings

WHy wouldn't it include Israel?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 31, 2011, 02:58:03 AM
Quote
Breakout Kings

WHy wouldn't it include Israel?

Just a matter of labeling - Israel doesn't consider itself a part of the ME region, even if they are geographically IN the region.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on May 31, 2011, 06:13:09 AM
Quote
Breakout Kings

WHy wouldn't it include Israel?

Just a matter of labeling - Israel doesn't consider itself a part of the ME region, even if they are geographically IN the region.

That isn't the impression given by Netanyahos recent speech to the Congress.
"Isreal is what is Right with the Middle East!"

I think that they do consider themselves belonging there.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 31, 2011, 06:26:04 AM
Quote
Breakout Kings

WHy wouldn't it include Israel?

Just a matter of labeling - Israel doesn't consider itself a part of the ME region, even if they are geographically IN the region.

That isn't the impression given by Netanyahos recent speech to the Congress.
"Isreal is what is Right with the Middle East!"

I think that they do consider themselves belonging there.

Believe me they don't. Even from a business perspective, they snarl to be called a Middle Eastern country.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on May 31, 2011, 07:06:55 AM
(http://shoofeemafi.com/wp-content/gallery/palestine-the-graphic-novel/maya-assad-4-bubbles.jpg)

(http://shoofeemafi.com/wp-content/gallery/palestine-the-graphic-novel/maya-assad-5.jpg)

(http://shoofeemafi.com/wp-content/gallery/palestine-the-graphic-novel/maya-assad-6.jpg)

(http://shoofeemafi.com/wp-content/gallery/palestine-the-graphic-novel/ola-dudin.jpg)

(http://www.jo.jo/images/stories/culture/book_reviews/maya-assad.jpg)

(http://www.jo.jo/images/stories/culture/book_reviews/sarah-hatahet--mike-v.-derderian.jpg)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 31, 2011, 11:26:47 AM
Sweet cartoons..........if only they were true      :-\
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 31, 2011, 01:22:00 PM
They are not untrue. Thanks Henny. I assume that these are from the Jordanian press?


The US and Israel are directly responsible for the eternal blockages of traffic from one part of the WB to another.
Children are not prejudiced, especially if they know one another and can play with one another. This does not happen if there is a wall between them.

If two children had treehouses above the wall, they would almost certainly be torn down by the Israelis, so that one is untrue. And Palestinians children to not blow bubbles at soldiers who aim rifles at their heads, but that one is more of a mood piece.

And the wall will fall. It will not require the return of Reagan to cause this, either.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 31, 2011, 01:33:15 PM
They are not untrue.  

Yea, they are.  Soldiers aren't targeting and assasinating children blowing bubbles.  Palestinian children are being taught, IN SCHOOL, that Israel is evil, that it doesn't really belong where it currently sits. 

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 31, 2011, 01:39:36 PM
And Israeli children are being taught that God gave them "Judea and Samaria" ie the entire West Bank.

As I said, the soldier and the bubbleboy are  a mood piece. Neither IDF soldiers nor Palestinians kids are dumb enough to take the position in the cartoon. The idea that there is an armed threat to a peaceful, innocent childhood, however is certainly true.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 31, 2011, 02:11:40 PM
I love the rationalizations you're providing, which then validates my point all the more, i.e. not true, as far as the cartoons go, and the point that Palestinian children are still being fed propoganda on the evils of Israel, and how it that state doesn't exist in their school books.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 31, 2011, 02:39:18 PM
So the Palestinian children deserve to be punished for life as third class citizens because of what is in their schoolbooks?

Israeli children are also indoctrinated. Americans are also indoctrinated as well.

Nothing validates your silly points outside of the mythical Land of Sirs.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on May 31, 2011, 02:45:36 PM
No, the Palestinian children should be taught that Israel exists, that it is not "evil", that the 2 countries can live together, recognizing EACH OTHER's right to exist.

Instead of the current status quo of Anti-israel propoganda, and the perpetuation of no peace, in their lifetime, or that of their childrens'
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on June 01, 2011, 12:33:23 AM
Sweet cartoons..........if only they were true      :-\

They are true to the people living there. This is their life, not yours. You've never even set foot in the region, so I beg to differ with your perception of "true" based on the U.S. media.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on June 01, 2011, 12:36:13 AM
They are not untrue. Thanks Henny. I assume that these are from the Jordanian press?


The US and Israel are directly responsible for the eternal blockages of traffic from one part of the WB to another.
Children are not prejudiced, especially if they know one another and can play with one another. This does not happen if there is a wall between them.

If two children had treehouses above the wall, they would almost certainly be torn down by the Israelis, so that one is untrue. And Palestinians children to not blow bubbles at soldiers who aim rifles at their heads, but that one is more of a mood piece.

And the wall will fall. It will not require the return of Reagan to cause this, either.

XO, they are from a new book called Graphic Palestine - all art by Palestinian artists.

Excellent analysis on the bubble blowing - as I said below, true to the people living there and a deeper piece that can be interpreted in many different ways. Except for a blunt analysis of course - no kid is going to walk up to an Israeli soldier and blow bubbles at him.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on June 01, 2011, 12:39:02 AM
They are not untrue.  

Yea, they are.  Soldiers aren't targeting and assasinating children blowing bubbles.  Palestinian children are being taught, IN SCHOOL, that Israel is evil, that it doesn't really belong where it currently sits.

No school required for them to be taught anything. They are learning realities on the ground. Do you think that they might otherwise consider their occupiers benevolent? Stockholm Syndrome, perhaps? And did you not consider what Israeli children are learning in their schools, that is probably unnecessary based on the situation on the ground?

And damnit, that is an interpretive piece. No offense, but art museums must not be your thing.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on June 01, 2011, 12:40:33 AM
I love the rationalizations you're providing, which then validates my point all the more, i.e. not true, as far as the cartoons go, and the point that Palestinian children are still being fed propoganda on the evils of Israel, and how it that state doesn't exist in their school books.

These are not children's cartoons. These are from an adult book. And really, you can't be any way but lopsided - you should see some right wing Israeli newspaper cartoons.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on June 01, 2011, 12:48:31 AM
If I had a million dollars...

No, not the Barenaked Ladies song. My own song.

If I had a million dollars and a magic wish, I would pick up a group of ya'll and dump you right in Gaza and let you live the reality for a few weeks. To see things how they really are. To live with the "benevolent" occupiers.

After that you could cross over into Israel and see how you feel about everything.

I also understand now why BSB and others have asked BT to delete them from the group and block them. I keep walking away, practically screaming, and then coming back in a few days later to see the responses that I know will upset me because they are so horribly misguided, skewed and misinformed.  :-\
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 01, 2011, 01:03:06 AM
If I had a million dollars...

No, not the Barenaked Ladies song. My own song.

If I had a million dollars and a magic wish, I would pick up a group of ya'll and dump you right in Gaza and let you live the reality for a few weeks. To see things how they really are. To live with the "benevolent" occupiers.

After that you could cross over into Israel and see how you feel about everything.



Being generous with your point of view is as good as anyone can do.

You may not be buying us all airline tickets , but the peice of your mind is valuable too.

Don't worry about , we arn't converted , ephipanys arn't easy.

What we gain in spite of all  the dehumanised are depicted as people

Through little holes poked in our illusions.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on June 01, 2011, 01:23:24 AM
If I had a million dollars...

No, not the Barenaked Ladies song. My own song.

If I had a million dollars and a magic wish, I would pick up a group of ya'll and dump you right in Gaza and let you live the reality for a few weeks. To see things how they really are. To live with the "benevolent" occupiers.

After that you could cross over into Israel and see how you feel about everything.



Being generous with your point of view is as good as anyone can do.

You may not be buying us all airline tickets , but the peice of your mind is valuable too.

Don't worry about , we arn't converted , ephipanys arn't easy.

What we gain in spite of all  the dehumanised are depicted as people

Through little holes poked in our illusions.

Thanks, Plane.  :)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 01, 2011, 10:45:12 AM
Henny....do you not understand....this is war.
Like General Sherman in the US Civil War said..."war is hell"
There are two sides to every war....
Either side can surrender at any time....
The American Indian..finally gave up..& we now sit on & control the once disputed land
Most people in the world sit on land today that was once controlled by someone else
Israel has possession and control of the disputed land
Your side wants the land and control
Israel does not want to give up the land or control
It's happened a milllion times throughout human history
And will continue to happen
We don't need to visit to see how bad it is....
We already know "war is hell"
If I were Israel I would not give a single inch to anyone
whose stated goal is Israel's destruction....that would be defined as INSANITY.

I also understand now why BSB and others have asked BT to delete them from the group and block them. I keep walking away, practically screaming, and then coming back in a few days later to see the responses that I know will upset me because they are so horribly misguided, skewed and misinformed.  :-\
This is a joke? No?
That's what political discourse is......whats the point if everyone agrees?
You want people deleted (silenced) because you consider them "horribly misguided"?
You "walk away screaming mad" because there is a different opinion?
You get upset because in your opinion someone is "misinformed"?
You pretend we must visit to "really understand".
I don't have to jump off the Empire State Building to "really understand" how bad it would be.
Our opinions are of less value because we are Americans in the US?
But Iranian opinion is somehow more valued?

All the talk about how bad the Israeli's are....
Have the Egyptians been "well off" under one of their own?
Is there not massive poverty in Egypt?
Whose fault is that?
Are the Syrians being mowed down by one their own "well off"?
Besides a few oil kingdoms...where is all the wealth and innovation in anything?
Whats Iran's excuse for being so poor?
is it the boogieman again or that they are just piss poor at most things?
Where are the shining examples(plural) of freedom, voting, equal rights for women,
and innovation and non-oil wealth creation from that area of the world?

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/de5d96ec.jpg)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Henny on June 01, 2011, 10:58:02 AM
Henny....do you not understand....this is war.
Like General Sherman in the US Civil War said..."war is hell"
There are two sides to every war....
Either side can surrender at any time....
The American Indian..finally gave up..& we now sit on & control the once disputed land
Most people in the world sit on land today that was once controlled by someone else
Israel has possession and control of the disputed land
Your side wants the land and control
Israel does not want to give up the land or control
It's happened a milllion times throughout human history
And will continue to happen
We don't need to visit to see how bad it is....
We already know "war is hell"
If I were Israel I would not give a single inch to anyone
whose stated goal is Israel's destruction....that would be defined as INSANITY.

You are right. It still sucks. And it has gone on for so terribly long.

I also understand now why BSB and others have asked BT to delete them from the group and block them. I keep walking away, practically screaming, and then coming back in a few days later to see the responses that I know will upset me because they are so horribly misguided, skewed and misinformed.  :-\
This is a joke? No?
That's what political discourse is......whats the point if everyone agrees?
You want people deleted (silenced) because you consider them "horribly misguided"?
You "walk away screaming mad" because there is a different opinion?
You get upset because in your opinion someone is "misinformed"?
You pretend we must visit to "really understand".
I don't have to jump off the Empire State Building to "really understand" how bad it would be.
Our opinions are of less value because we are Americans in the US?
But Iranian opinion is somehow more valued?


First, I meant people asking to have themselves deleted - not anyone else! I find that I know why people have asked to have themselves deleted so as to remove the temptation to return for more. And I make that statement out of frustration alone.

And I maintain that the US news is so terribly skewed that most of you do not really see how it really is. The Iranian news is more accurate, although even most Middle Eastern countries do not care to hear their opinions regardless.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 01, 2011, 11:13:12 AM
It is utterly absurd to tell Henny she does not understand the situation. She understands it better than you ever could. She lives there: half the people in Jordan are Palestinians.

The map is ridiculous.

There could also be a map of your neighborhood showing the house of some crook surrounded by the property of honest homeowners. It would hardly be understood by sane people  that the crook was being falsely accused, merely because he controlled so little and others so much.

Only poor Bernie Madoff was thrown in prison out of THOUSANDS of hedge fund managers!

This is not a war in any traditional sense. It is an illegal occupation of lands seized by conquest in violation of the UN Charter, the same organization that created Israel in the first place.

Jews were not deprived of their country in 130 CE by Arabs or Palestinians. They were driven out by the Romans when they were on the losing side of the Bar Kokhba insurrection. The Jews that reclaim Palestine are certainly NOT the same people who were driven away, and many, if not most, are not even the descendants of those people.

Israel was created out of the guilt of the Western powers that refused admittance to the Jews murdered by the Nazis in the Holocaust. It was not created to be an armed camp and local bully that gradually would expand and seize land from their neighbors.

There must be a mutually agreed on settlement and an end to all aggression. There can be no secure borders, the borders of Israel are not secure now. No borders in that area can be secure. With drone aircraft and other technologically advanced weapons, no country on this planet can have secure borders. Secure borders are only something people can dream about, like smurfs and unicorns.

Netanyahu wants security, give the fool a Linus blanket.

 Security will come when there is an agreement where the borders are and how passage can be permitted across those borders, just as France, Germany, Italy, Austria and Liechtenstein all agree on the borders of Switzerland.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 11:48:56 AM
Sweet cartoons..........if only they were true      :-\

They are true to the people living there. This is their life, not yours. You've never even set foot in the region, so I beg to differ with your perception of "true" based on the U.S. media.

Sorry, but it's not based soley on "U.S. media".  If it were, I'd have a much closer view to yours.  The point is however your take on it being "true to the people living there".  Meaning, the propaganda is working, and made more so by your continued non-support of even the smallest starting block to peace, that of the public recognition of Israel's right to exist

If that is indeed how the people there "feel", you reinforce the tragic conclusion, that there'll be no peace.  and no, I never claimed them to be "kids' cartoons".  If this is indeed "art", I'm afriad it belongs right up there with urine used on a Christ painting and a dung covered Virgin Mary 


BTW, GREAT Map C    8)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 01, 2011, 01:16:29 PM
Yes lets all listen to XO pontificate about the horrors of "stolen land"
while he himself sits, lives, works, and enjoys life on "stolen land"!

Oh my but the stolen land XO sits on was before the UN
so that makes it all ok and better.....i feel so warm and fuzzy!
ya see I am guilt free becuzzz my horror happened before any UN!
Ha Ha Ha......

Yasssir boss dat be it....and it makes a wholes lots of logical sense!
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 02:52:25 PM
Yes lets all listen to XO pontificate about the horrors of "stolen land"
while he himself sits, lives, works, and enjoys life on "stolen land"!

When Obama gives California back to Mexico, supported by the likes of Xo and others, THEN they'll have a credible leg to stand on, when it comes to demanding that Isreal give back these supposed "stolen lands"

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 01, 2011, 02:56:03 PM
I wonder if some Palestinians view Israeli settlers in the West Bank the same way some Californians view illegal Mexicans.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 03:01:46 PM
Naaa, i think, from the jist of the cartoons, and other commentary, that Palestinians see Israel is evil, racist, murderous, thugs, bent on the destruction of Palestinians, especially children blowing bubbles

Your POV also requires that the Israeli settlers are illegally settling on Israeli land
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 01, 2011, 03:41:48 PM
I wonder if some Palestinians view Israeli settlers in the West Bank the same
way some Californians view illegal Mexicans.

Lemme know when Californians or their supporters advocate
targeting for violence/ murder innocent women and children.

(http://www.agent.co.il/images/clients/y-net-logo-en.jpg)

Iran cleric: Killing Israeli children OK

Radical religious cleric known as President Ahmadinejad's spiritual mentor
says attacks on Israeli civilians permissible, suicide bombings a Muslim duty.

05.31.11, 02:09 / Israel News 

A senior Iranian cleric, who is known as President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's spiritual mentor,
urged followers to continue suicide attacks against Israelis, including children

Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah, considered one of the Islamic Republic's most radical
clerics, issued a religious edict on his website whereby suicide attacks are not only legitimate
but are a must for every Muslim, a special paper by the Middle East Media Research Institute shows.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4076176,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4076176,00.html)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 03:59:09 PM
Here's a few very simple questions, that require very little rationalizations on how evil Israel is supposed to be:

Were Arab nations prepositioning to attack Israel, in the summer of 1967?   (BEFORE any lands were "stolen"?)

Who currently "owns/in charge of" the West Bank?

Who currently "owns/in charge of" the Golan Heights?
---------------------------------------------------
And on a semi-related note

Who currently "owns/in charge of" California?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 01, 2011, 04:55:29 PM
What some Iranian said is irrelevant to the illegal occupation of Palestine by the Israelis.  The PLO did not announce that killing of children was a policy. This is a stupid remark, much like "Christians" regular expressions of his desire to nuke Iran and kill everyone possible.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 01, 2011, 05:09:04 PM
The legality of the settlements in the West Bank is under dispute, the International Community and the UN say they are illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 05:26:25 PM
Why am I not surprised my rather simple questions have not been addressed?  So apparently California's status is under review as well, I should assume
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 01, 2011, 06:01:54 PM
California is US territory by virtue of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Can you tell me the name of equivalent treaty for the West Bank?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 06:28:26 PM
CA is virtue of U.S territory by means of having "stolen" it, from Mexico, by means of military confrontation.  CA is far more Mexico's than the West Bank is to the Palestinians.  In fact, the West Bank was Jordan's, before Jordan ATTACKED Israel.  So, why isn't the UN claiming that Israel needs to give the land back to Jordan??

Point being, that the lands were no more stolen than what CA did to Mexico.  So, the "dispute" in question is largely the UN's say so, right?  And given their current level of credibility, I'd say Israel has every possible leg to stand on, when it comes to maintaining control of those "disputed" territories
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 01, 2011, 06:32:22 PM
This is a stupid remark, much like "Christians" regular expressions of his desire to nuke Iran
and kill everyone possible.

what is stupid.....is you lying again or mis-repesenting my position
i have repeatedly said i would use tactical nuclear weapons on military targets in Iran
but using nukes would almost surely not even be needed
I have not advocated "killing everyone possible" in Iran
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 01, 2011, 06:50:35 PM
California is US territory by virtue of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Can you tell me the name of equivalent treaty for the West Bank?

BT maybe they could use the same genocidal tactics and force some so called "treaties" or
"agreements" like your forefathers that screwed and murdered the American Indians
with crimes against humanity so you could enjoy the good life you and your more recent
family have enjoyed over the last couple of centuries? Just like just about every other
place on earth where people ran someone, some tribe, or some people off land they
wanted. How do you know the people of the "West Bank" didn't run somebody
else off that land at some time in ancient history long ago?
When does "righteous history" begin?
Does it begin once you and XO are all warm & comfy on your "stolen lands"
and then can start condemning others?

(http://www.alexanderhamiltoninstitute.org/lp/Native%20Americans/reservations/Trail%20of%20Tears%20Map.jpg)

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 01, 2011, 07:19:40 PM
Quote
BT maybe they could use the same genocidal tactics and force some so called "treaties" or
"agreements" like your forefathers that screwed and murdered the American Indians
with crimes against humanity so you could enjoy the good life you and your more recent
family have enjoyed over the last couple of centuries?

Both sides of my family immigrated to the US in the 1880's. Doubt they did much pioneering. Didn't own any slaves either. My dads side started a bakery in Central PA and my moms side worked the docks in NYC.

And if you have been paying attention, i am not for Israel returning to pre67 borders. That is Sirs, on condition of a pinky swear that Hamas no longer hates Jews or some nonsensical position, before Israel enters peace negotiations.

The Golan Heights should be a separate discussion with Syria. I think there is room for some land swaps in the West Bank that might protect both countries interests. And remember i'm the one who said that if Israel or Palestine break the peace they both should be nuked. Enough already.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 07:47:43 PM
Quote
BT maybe they could use the same genocidal tactics and force some so called "treaties" or
"agreements" like your forefathers that screwed and murdered the American Indians
with crimes against humanity so you could enjoy the good life you and your more recent
family have enjoyed over the last couple of centuries?

And if you have been paying attention, i am not for Israel returning to pre67 borders. That is Sirs, on condition of a pinky swear that Hamas no longer hates Jews or some nonsensical position, before Israel enters peace negotiations.  

Subtracting the misrepresentation of merely "stop hating the jews" nonsense, that was based on the idea that folks like the International community & the U.S. would have the balls to seriously enforce any infringement of any peace arrangements, after a starting point of the considered Palestinian state tangibly removing from the Hamas governing charter, the death of the Israeli state.  Hardly some twisted rationalization that Hamas stop hating Jews. 

But since you've convicned me that there can be no such peace in this 2 state arrangement, then Israel needs to hang on to every crop & cut of land necessary to better defend themselves from

And thanks again for not addressing the rather simple questions posed.  Provides some serious context to this who debate


The Golan Heights should be a separate discussion with Syria.

But its not, now is it, as BsB referenced


I think there is room for some land swaps in the West Bank that might protect both countries interests.  

Not when the other's country's/state's intent is the destruction of the other state


And remember i'm the one who said that if Israel or Palestine break the peace they both should be nuked.

As well as a non starter

Enough already.

That's an understatement
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 01, 2011, 08:06:55 PM
Quote
But its not, now is it, as BsB referenced

I don't see why not. Is syria doing the negotiations for Palestine?

Quote
Subtracting the misrepresentation of merely "stop hating the jews" nonsense, that was based on the idea that folks like the International community & the U.S. would have the balls to seriously enforce any infringement of any peace arrangements, after a starting point of the considered Palestinian state tangibly removing from the Hamas governing charter, the death of the Israeli state.  Hardly some twisted rationalization that Hamas stop hating Jews. 

My bad. They can still hate the Jews. They just have cross their heart swear that they don't wish for the destruction of Israel and all will be right with the world. Sounds like a Beatles song.

Quote
But since you've convicned me that there can be no such peace in this 2 state arrangement, then Israel needs to hang on to every crop & cut of land necessary to better defend themselves from

I agree, it's always better to be told what you will get versus negotiating to make sure you get what you need.

Quote
And thanks again for not addressing the rather simple questions posed.  Provides some serious context to this who debate

Oh did you produce the  treaty with the Palestinians and Jordanians that would be the equivalent of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.  Eh? You know the one where the Palestinians retained land ownership the same way the Mexicans did when California was ceded to the US or where the Palestinians were compensated for their land like in California? Or where Jordan received compensation for the land lost, like Mexico did?





Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 08:59:51 PM
Quote
since you've convicned me that there can be no such peace in this 2 state arrangement, then Israel needs to hang on to every crop & cut of land necessary to better defend themselves from

I agree, it's always better to be told what you will get versus negotiating to make sure you get what you need.  

How is hanging on to what you have, being told what you will get??  You have that bassackwards, where everyone else seems to be trying to tell Israel what it will get.  Sorry, it's not going to work that way.  You convinced me of that. 

What they "need" is the Arab nations to stop using the Palestinians as fodder in trying to remove israel from the region.

What they "need" is a starting point, in which the 2nd state in this supposed 2 state arrangement doesn't have as a governing charter, the destruction of the other state
 

Quote
And thanks again for not addressing the rather simple questions posed.  Provides some serious context to this who debate

Oh did you produce the  treaty with the Palestinians and Jordanians that would be the equivalent of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.  

No, that was your tangential deflective question, that never addressed my question.  Nice try, though

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 01, 2011, 09:25:27 PM
I'll make it simple for you to understand. Israel can keep the lands when they enter negotiations. You are saying they shouldn't bother because Hamas hasn't pinky sweared that they won't wish for the end of Israel.

Did Reagan refuse to meet with Gorby because Gorby didn't renounce Khrushchev for saying the USSR would bury us?

No. Because he was confident that he had the winning hand in any negotiation. You must not think that the case with Israel. But if Israel doesn't hold the chips, isn't Palestine better off just waiting for world opinion to completely turn against Israel. Maybe a peaceful march in Jerusalem that turns into another Tienanmen Square. Maybe an overreaction on Israel's part that forces even its most rabid supporters in the US to take a second look at what is going on.

Tick Tock.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 10:28:45 PM
I'll keep it even more simpler.  When the 2nd state, in this 2 state utopia, takes out its mandate to destroy the other state, then they (Israel) can actually enter negotiations. 

Why would ANY nation give up more land to a neighbor that's calling on the destruction of that nation??  "Here, we know you want to kill us....let's give you more land closer to us, to do just that, but you'll promise not to it, ok?" 

What a great negotiating tactic, especially given your conclusion, that swayed me even, that the Hamas wing of the Palestinian government will never stop in their agenda of ridding the region of Israel        ::)

The winning hand here is that the truth on Israel's side.  Yours & Xo's, inability to simply answer my questions helps to highlight that point
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 01, 2011, 10:58:28 PM
Quote
I'll keep it even more simpler.  When the 2nd states, in this 2 state utopia, takes out its mandate to destroy the other state, then they can actually enter negotiations. 

Of course , the simple response is that your precondition is a demand for a meaningless statement in order to have Israel come to the table. And of course it gives Israel an excuse to delay the inevitable negotiations that sooner or later must come. Perhaps at a time not to Israels advantage.

And if you have any reading skills whatsoever, you will notice that i did not call for Israel to give up any land.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 01, 2011, 11:02:43 PM
And if you noticed, you've convinced me, there will be no peace.  Best Israel keeps every crop & cut of land, OF THEIRS, they can to better defend themselves from
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 01, 2011, 11:27:56 PM
And  they will have to defend, since i doubt your precondition for negotiations will be met and whatever chance for a favorable peace will slip away.

Picture this: a million youth from all around the middle east march on Jerusalem, peacefully, Ghandiesque and MLK non violent all at one time. What is the IDF going to do?

Tick Tock
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 02, 2011, 02:04:46 AM
And  they will have to defend

That's pretty much been the issue, since the get to.  And since there's no plans on anyone else ceasing aide to the Palestinians and Arab nations surrounding Israel, I have no problem with our continued military aide to Israel.  Anything to better their defense


since i doubt your precondition for negotiations will be met and whatever chance for a favorable peace will slip away.

Doesn't matter about my precondition.  You've convinced me, there will be no peace

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 02, 2011, 09:50:00 AM

Quote
Doesn't matter about my precondition.

on that we agree.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 02, 2011, 11:07:41 AM
Both sides of my family immigrated to the US in the 1880's.
Doubt they did much pioneering. Didn't own any slaves either.
My dads side started a bakery in Central PA and my moms side worked the docks in NYC.

That's interesting BT....but in my opinion....we (whites) still reaped indirect rewards
from slavery and Indian genocide whether we or our relatives were a part of the
actual crimes or not. In fact although I do not think it is the best strategy, that's
basically what affirmative action is about....allowing "catch up" due to past crimes.

Although most Whites in the United States never owned a slave there is still
a "collective guilt" over slavery whether one agrees with it or not.

And in my opinion whites whether they owned slaves or not still did in fact benefit
indirectly in so many ways due to slavery and the Indian genocide.
Whites had access to better jobs, better healthcare, better nutrition, better education,
better housing for centuries at other's expense....and thus white's prospered
and that is in my mind an undeniable factor in who and where we are today.
Whites didn't have it "easy", but they generally had it "easier" than Blacks/Indians.

I am not saying that is the only reason white's prospered but it is one piece of a puzzle.

You can't deny people (Blacks/Indians) healthcare, property, education, housing,
jobs, voting for centuries and then expect pooof the damage to be gone and claim
"well I never owned a slave...so I just cant understand why they continue to lag behind
and it's not my problem".

When you're family immigrated in the 1880's they started a bakery in PA....that for all
practical purposes was not an option for Blacks....they also had access to land that
people had been "run off of"......so indirectly even-though I am sure your family
worked very hard and deserved what they got....they still got a "head start" solely
on the color of their skin/race/background....in other words...benefit at the expense of others.

Again....I am just saying....that our past....plays a real part in who we all are today.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 02, 2011, 11:10:21 AM
Quote
Doesn't matter about my precondition.

on that we agree.

Right.....because since there can be no peace, why even entertain the idea of a starting point to any favorable peace
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 02, 2011, 11:23:43 AM
Both sides of my family immigrated to the US in the 1880's.
Doubt they did much pioneering. Didn't own any slaves either.
My dads side started a bakery in Central PA and my moms side worked the docks in NYC.

That's interesting BT....but in my opinion....we (whites) still reaped indirect rewards
from slavery and Indian genocide whether we or our relatives were a part of the
actual crimes or not. In fact although I do not think it is the best strategy, that's
basically what affirmative action is about....allowing "catch up" due to past crimes.

Although most Whites in the United States never owned a slave there is still
a "collective guilt" over slavery whether one agrees with it or not.

And in my opinion whites whether they owned slaves or not still did in fact benefit
indirectly in so many ways due to slavery and the Indian genocide.
Whites had access to better jobs, better healthcare, better nutrition, better education,
better housing for centuries at other's expense....and thus white's prospered
and that is in my mind an undeniable factor in who and where we are today.
Whites didn't have it "easy", but they generally had it "easier" than Blacks/Indians.

I am not saying that is the only reason white's prospered but it is one piece of a puzzle.

You can't deny people (Blacks/Indians) healthcare, property, education, housing,
jobs, voting for centuries and then expect pooof the damage to be gone and claim
"well I never owned a slave...so I just cant understand why they continue to lag behind
and it's not my problem".

When you're family immigrated in the 1880's they started a bakery in PA....that for all
practical purposes was not an option for Blacks....they also had access to land that
people had been "run off of"......so indirectly even-though I am sure your family
worked very hard and deserved what they got....they still got a "head start" solely
on the color of their skin/race/background....in other words...benefit at the expense of others.

Again....I am just saying....that our past....plays a real part in who we all are today.

Sorry, i don't do group guilt. In 1880's PA if a black family had a kitchen and oven they had the same advantage my ancestors had.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 02, 2011, 12:26:28 PM
Sorry, i don't do group guilt. 

It's not really guilt...it is just a statement of factual reality.

In 1880's PA if a black family had a kitchen and oven they had the
same advantage my ancestors had.

You've got to be kidding?
The "same advantage"?
Laughable at best!
Being denied human rights, property, healthcare,
education, housing, nutrition, voting, jobs for centuries
to generation after generation has no effect if two
people approach the same start line?

You really think that in 1880 a black approaching
landlords, suppliers, customers was treated
anywhere near the same as your white relatives?

Hell that can hardly even be said today in 2011.
The Voting Rights Act wasn't even until 1965!
Of course we have made huge progress.
But claiming blacks had the "same advantages"
as whites in 1880 is ludicrous.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 02, 2011, 01:33:05 PM
That is exactly how the bakery started, in their kitchen. And they sold to their neighbors. And yes a relative did introduce them to purveyors of the ingredients necessary to bake breads.

So unless the black family, in Pennsylvania, did not have a kitchen and neighbors and a relative to make introductions, yes they would have the same advantage as my great great grandfather and great great grandmother. I don't see why it is hard to understand that concept. Immigrants to this country are still doing it today.



 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 02, 2011, 02:51:53 PM
In 1880's PA if a black family had a kitchen and oven they had the same advantage my ancestors had.
====================================================

That would be true if people were as likely to buy from this hypothetical Black family, and they had the same access to customers that your family did.

It also might involve the ability to buy flour and other ingredients on credit.

And of course, many, if not most Black families in 1880 were not in Pennsylvania, but on sharecropper farms in the South.

Quite often the police did not protect Black families from thieves as well as they did White families.

There are a number of factors you seem to not be considering here.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 02, 2011, 03:55:09 PM
So unless the black family, in Pennsylvania, did not have a kitchen and neighbors
and a relative to make introductions, yes they would have the same advantage
as my great great grandfather and great great grandmother. I don't see why it is
hard to understand that concept. Immigrants to this country are still doing it today.

Comparing immigrants to the United States in 2011
with Blacks in the 1880's and the problems blacks
faced seems rather ridiculous. An immigrant
today can sit right at the front of any city bus
in America.....hell blacks still couldn't do that
in the 1950's much less the 1880's. Blacks
had separate drinking fountains in the 1950's.
Recent and even illegal immigrants in 2011 fill
our classrooms across America...black children
were not allowed in thousands of schools across
the United States in the 1930's, 1940's, 1950's,
and 1960's....and that had no consequences as far
as making a tougher road?....lol

Denying that so many more doors were closed to Blacks
than Whites in the 1880's is just crazy.
Could a black have made a go of it?...Well sure anything is
possible....but are we talking anywhere close to being in
the "same game"...with the "same advantages"?.....Hell no!

Blacks did not have access to the same markets & customers as your white family did.
Blacks did not survive from birth or as adults as long as your white family did.
Blacks were shunned loans/landlords/suppliers if they tried to expand a kitchen into a business.
Blacks had ZERO educational resources in their backgrounds to manage a growing business.
Blacks if they got sick had much less access to medical care than your white family.

Those are not the "same advantages".

BT lets play an analogy game for a moment beyond the micro
example of your family....

Do you think if a race is locked in a dungeon for a couple of centuries
denied education, denied medical care, denied jobs, denied loans,
denied free travel to better themselves, denied voting, denied
property ownership, denied fair judicial procedures, etc etc etc
then all of sudden they are set free they are on the same footing
with another race that has enjoyed throughout generation after
generation of education, voting, free travel, medical care?

Obviously it takes time to heal those wounds.
We are still today in that process.
Lots of progress has been made.
However many things we have done have actually hindered that progress.
But progress continues....the gap is narrowing.
However the project is still far from complete...
But recent generations are making up the gap fast....
Education, education, education, education is the KEY!
With each generation of education success the gap will keep closing.
But it takes time.....but 1880?.....Come on...get serious!

I don't think a black in 2011 has the "same advantages"
in a general sense. Part of the reason I have a successful business
are from things that most black families would not have had access or been
as connected with the business community.....could a black have made it
it the same business as me?....well sure.....but in my opinion in most cases
the road would have been more difficult because they don't have the "same
advantages" as I did....and most whites would have over most blacks as far
as family/friend connections to education, family/friend connections to loans,
family/friend connections to business, family/friend connections to collateral-capital,
family/friend connections to customers.....ect...
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 02, 2011, 04:43:54 PM
The Blacks who did well economically around the turn of the century were nearly all those who sold products to and did services for other Black people: preachers, undertakers, life insurance salesmen, people who sold hair straighteners and skin cremes. There were a few Pullman conductors and others who saved their money and bought real estate in Black communities as well.

I don't think a baker would have done all that well. There was competition by then from commercial bakers, whose bread was cheaper.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 02, 2011, 08:03:36 PM
Caterers, Butchers, Confectioners, Ice Cream (Louisville, KY)
Author W. H. Gibson, Sr. lists the following as prominent African Americans in Louisville, KY -- [Caterers] George Brown, Daniel Clemmons, Frank Gray, and Thornton Thompson; [Butcher] Bartlett Taylor; and [Confectioner] Henry Cozzens, who was also a barber and had an ice cream saloon "known from New Orleans to Pittsburg [sic]." The Page Ice Cream Factory, located on West Chestnut Street, was the largest manufacturer and dealer of ice cream in the city of Louisville. The National Negro Press Association visited the factory in 1928, and members were served slices of the much requested brick ice cream known as "Neapolitan."


http://www.uky.edu/Libraries/NKAA/subject.php?sub_id=24 (http://www.uky.edu/Libraries/NKAA/subject.php?sub_id=24)


A count of Negro bakers employed in Kentucky can be found in the U.S. Census records. Kentucky has never been a state with a large number of bakers of any race. The first comprehensive counting of bakers in the U.S. was reported in the 1850 record of American manufacturers. Men were the dominant wage earners. According to the census, by 1920 there were 720 Negro bakers in the United States: 530 males and 193 females, and of the total, 72 males were employed in Kentucky. The manufacturing of bread in the U.S. was valued at over a billion dollars, and the distribution of bakeries was about the same as the population distribution in urban areas. Between 1921-1929, bakery operations in the U.S. were expanding as grocery stores, restaurant chains, and retail bakeries began operating as multi-units. In 1930, there were 60 Negro male bakers in Kentucky and eight in Louisville. Over the next few decades the industry was affected by many factors, including rationing during the wars. The sale of pre-packaged
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 02, 2011, 09:12:52 PM
there is no doubt that a few blacks could succeed....
baking...farming.....any environment....
there are always survivors
the question is was the "playing field" in the vast majority of cases anywhere near the same?
were the "advantages the same"?
of course not.....
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on June 03, 2011, 06:42:39 AM
There's also the factor, and perhaps the most important factor, with African Americans of having been institutionalized. Slavery doesn't just take away your physical freedom, it takes away your mental freedom. You no longer see yourself as an individual who can overcome events, and solve problems. As a slave you get out of the habit of thinking you can control any part of your destiny. Your life is in the hands of someone else almost completely. You can't just turn the switch of individualism back on again. That takes time, generations in fact. An African American, 130 years ago, could have had every advantage of starting a business handed to them, but seeing yourself as capable of actually doing it is a whole other thing. That, more than anything else, has been the treck blacks in this country have been on. And if that journey isn't difficult enough in its own right, much of America has been set up to keep telling blacks that they aren't capable. That's what bigotry is designed to do.

BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 03, 2011, 02:59:57 PM
Just got back in town.

So CU how many more generations do we need of an affirmative action war on poverty to help ease that white guilt you seem to be carrying around?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 03, 2011, 03:07:05 PM
Affirmative action should continue until racism no longer affects the job market.

Guilt is not really relevant to this: it is just a byproduct.

I note that although some universities give special treatment to "Asians", they do not extend it to Jews, or even Israelis. If you look at a map, you see that Israel is clearly in Asia.

I imagine this is because it is not possible to prove that Jews or even Israelis, are underpaid or underemployed when compared with other Americans. I think the reverse is true.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 03, 2011, 03:25:56 PM
Affirmative action should continue until racism no longer affects the job market.

But of course....discrimination is a good thing, when certain folks say so.  Boy oh boy, if MLK could see how his message has been mutated



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 03, 2011, 06:29:46 PM
Yeah, it is awful how they discriminate against you whiteboys.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 03, 2011, 08:36:10 PM
Wow...Racism sure doesn't look good on you, Xo     :o
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 09, 2011, 08:12:51 PM
Peace Process, RIP

When President Obama said last month that "Israel cannot be expected to negotiate with Palestinians who do not recognize its right to exist," he was referring to Hamas. In its charter, Hamas calls Palestine an "Islamic endowment" and specifically rules out a peaceful solution to the conflict with Israel. Hamas describes itself as "one of the links in the Chain of Jihad." It uses terrorism to achieve its goals -- which include the advance of Muslim power and the expansion of Muslim territory , and its spokesmen openly mourned the death of Osama bin Laden, calling him an "Arab holy warrior" who deserves to spend eternity with the "true believers and the martyrs."

Nevertheless, Obama also made clear that he believes the "peace process" can and must move forward. If the Israelis cannot be expected to negotiate with Hamas, surely they can negotiate with Fatah, the other main Palestinian faction. Though now in the process of forming a coalition with Hamas, Fatah does recognize Israel's right to exist.

Or does it?

Azzam al-Ahmed is a member of the Fatah Central Committee. He is closely associated with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. And last week he was pretty clear in an interview with the Egyptian newspaper Al-Masry Al-Youm. "Fatah has never recognized Israel's right to exist and will never do so,"  he said.

So, by Obama's own reasoning, there are now no Palestinian leaders with whom the Israelis can "be expected to negotiate." And that, in turn, implies that what we call the "peace process," which began with talks in Madrid 20 years ago, is now as dead as Monty Python's parrot. That's big news -- though few news outlets are treating it as such.

What they are reporting instead is that Israeli troops have been firing on Palestinian refugees along Israel's border with Syria.

The reality: Mobs from Syria, probably not including anyone who actually left his home during a war waged against Israel more than 60 years ago -- have been violating Israel's borders, in some cases throwing firebombs. Israeli troops, following numerous warnings to the mobs to turn around, have used force to push them back. If there is a good alternative available, it doesn't occur to me.

It should, by now, be apparent that both Hamas and Fatah are pursuing the dream not of a Palestinian state that would take its place next to Israel but of a Palestinian state that would replace Israel. Abbas wants not a two-state solution, but a two-stage execution. His approach is essentially the same approach as that of his predecessor, Yasir Arafat, who spoke, in Arabic, not in English, of a "phased strategy," implying that Palestinians should take any land Israel will surrender and use it as a springboard for the "complete liberation of Palestine."    (sirs nodding his head in how it validates exactly the point that Israel hold on to every parcel of land it has aquired in defense of their existance)

In the first stage, Abbas will issue a declaration of Palestinian statehood coupled with a demand that Israel retreat to what are misleadingly called the 1967 borders. In fact, these are the lines at which five Arab armies were stopped in 1949 as they were trying to drive Palestinian Jews into the sea. They had already rejected the first offer of a two-state solution.

One result of that war: about 600,000 Palestinian Arabs fled Israel, creating a refugee crisis that, quite purposefully, has never been solved. Palestinian Arabs who remained in Israel, however, became Israeli citizens and now constitute 20 percent of Israel's population, enjoying rights that ethnic and religious minorities are denied throughout what we have come to call the Muslim world.

The 1949 armistice lines remained in place until 1967 when another war was waged by the same armies from the same Arab nations for the same purpose. If at first you don?t succeed?

In the second stage, Abbas will seek approval for his state at the U.N. He will get it from an automatic majority in the General Assembly: more than 20 Arab members and more than 50 self-described Islamic states. Many Third World and European nations will join the chorus as well, perhaps backing Palestinian claims against Israel with weapons of economic warfare such as boycotts, divestment and sanctions.

What will happen after that is anyone's guess. With Hamas in its government, the newly declared Palestinian state will be, by definition, yet one more terrorist state in the Middle East. Since terrorist states generally attract few tourists and little foreign investment, Palestine will rely on the "international community" to pay its bills. Its leaders could offer to negotiate with Israel but they are refusing to do that now so why would they do that then? Nor is Israel likely to sit down with Hamas -- any more than we'd sit down with al-Qaeda.

The most likely outcome: another war, sooner or later.

Is there any way off this dead-end road? Palestinian leaders, both those from Hamas and Fatah, say they now plan to hold elections in 2012. Obama and European leaders have the clout to ensure that Palestinian voters are given a clear choice. Do they want peace with Israel and, if so, are they willing to make concessions and accept sacrifices to achieve it? Or would they prefer to continue the conflict, to fight as long as it takes to defeat and destroy Israel, no matter the cost?

The data, including both polls and a Foundation for Defense of Democracies? study of Palestinian sentiment as expressed through social media, suggest that most Palestinians are likely to choose war over peace: Better to wage an exterminationist jihad than tolerate an infidel nation, the only one left in the broader Middle East from Morocco to Pakistan -- as a neighbor. But a free and fair campaign, one that includes a real debate about the choices facing Palestinians might focus minds. It might even change minds.

The last time there was a Palestinian election, in 2006, it was neither free nor fair. No candidate could make an argument in favor of peaceful coexistence with Jews and live to tell the tale. The Bush administration deserves some of the blame for that. The Obama administration has a chance to do better. I'm not betting my paycheck that it will, but you never know.


Commentary (http://townhall.com/columnists/cliffmay/2011/06/09/peace_process,_rip)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 09, 2011, 08:23:55 PM
The last time there was a Palestinian election, in 2006, it was neither free nor fair. No candidate could make an argument in favor of peaceful coexistence with Jews and live to tell the tale. The Bush administration deserves some of the blame for that. The Obama administration has a chance to do better. I?m not betting my paycheck that it will, but you never know.
================================================================================
It was more free and fair than elections in any Arab nations that have had elections. There were lots of candidates, and no major allegations of voter fraud.
The current administration could do a lot better, but they really need to put the screws on Netanyahu. Read the stupid sumbitch the riot act.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 10, 2011, 01:54:06 AM
It's almost surreal to watch Xo, proclaim out of 1 side of his mouth that the Palestinian elections putting Hamas on a governmental footing was an abhorent act facilitated by Condi, yet with the other side here, is opining the shining example of Arab democracy

So which is it? 

And beyond that blatant inconsistency, still doesn't refute the point being made by the commentary.......RIP "Peace Process"
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 10, 2011, 10:14:26 AM
Hamas is a nasty bunch, but they did get a plurality of votes in Gaza.


It was foolish of Condi to call for elections with such poor intel on who might win.

Stupid Condi, for calling the elections.
Stupid Hamas, for thinking that their puny rockets will serve to free them from their prison.
Stupid Israel for not resolving this long ago.
Stupid Americans for given Israel all that aid.
Stupid you for not seeing how stupid all this really is.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 10, 2011, 11:13:11 AM
Hamas is a nasty bunch, but they did get a plurality of votes in Gaza.

Ok then....so the peace process is indeed dead.  Stupid Obama for not recognizing this.  Stupid Xo for persevering on the word, stupid


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 10, 2011, 12:07:28 PM
I have no effect on the peace process. Nothing I say changes anything.

Netanyahu will continue to stall. He obviously wants no settlement. He will continue to be a goon and a thug.

Israel will face more difficult and more popular governments in Syria and Egypt.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 10, 2011, 01:29:26 PM
I have no effect on the peace process. Nothing I say changes anything.

Deflection alert...deflection alert.  As if anyone ever claimed you did     ::)


Netanyahu will continue to stall. He obviously wants no settlement.

Yet he's the only one willing to acknowledge the right & existance of a Palestinian state.  Can't say the same for the other side in that 2 party arrangement, now, can we


Israel will face more difficult and more popular governments in Syria and Egypt.

RIP Peace Process
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 10, 2011, 02:42:15 PM
When was it that Netanyahu recognized Palestine as a nation?

Who is the ambassador?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 10, 2011, 02:45:49 PM
MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, in recognizing that Palestinians could exist as a state next to Israel

And how many times has Hamas, (the "plurality of Palestinian votes", the shining example of Arab Democracy), reciprocated?  How about zero
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 10, 2011, 06:33:07 PM
Israel has NEVER recognized Palestine. NEVER.

Hamas is no more unreasonable than some of the parties in Netanyahu's coalition, like Shas.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 10, 2011, 06:46:19 PM
That's not the issue.....the issue is of a Palestinian state next to an Israeli state.  I realize deflection is one of your strengths, but apparently you need to stick with teaching spanish, since history is not your forte.  "Palestine" did not include an "Israeli state", so its a moot point to be declaring how Bibi hasn't ever acknowledged "Palestine"

Modern day Israel in general, and Netanyahu specifically, has on multiple occasions acknowledged the Palestinians in having their own state, next to Israel.  Can't say the same, the other way around now, which is where you keep tripping all over yourself, in try to lay this at Bibi's feet. 

And your continued efforts to give Hamas a pass and rationalize their actions further demonstrates the stupidity in the current "peace process", both in Obama's comments and your defense of them

 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 10, 2011, 07:46:35 PM
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 10, 2011, 07:55:49 PM
Ummm...Yassar is no more.  1993 is...lemme count...18years ago.  We need a current recognition, since at this point in time, the current state of Fatah & Hamas, the 2 primary entities behind the "Palestinian Government" has said no, to an Israeli state
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 10, 2011, 08:14:05 PM
So the PLO has recognized Israel's right to exist, but it doesn't count for sirs.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 10, 2011, 08:30:47 PM
The PLO is not Fatah.  The PLO is not Hamas.  Not to mention that the article in question is almost 20years ago. 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 10, 2011, 08:44:12 PM
Ummm...Yassar is no more.  1993 is...lemme count...18years ago.  We need a current recognition, since at this point in time, the current state of Fatah & Hamas, the 2 primary entities behind the "Palestinian Government" has said no, to an Israeli state

Meanwhile the US Constitution is a couple of centuries old and everyone who signed it is dead. Does that make it non valid?

There would be no PA without a PLO. The agreement was not revoked. It is the same framework that Bush through Rice and Obama through Mitchell labored under.

That agreement led to the formation of the Palestinian Authority. The PA has recognized a State of Israel. They haven't recognized a Jewish State of Israel. Their reasoning being that creating a theocracy is counterproductive to democracy where some of the citizens of the State of Israel are not Jewish.

Mahmoud Abbas  also known by the kunya Abu Mazen (Arabic: أَبُو مَازِن‎, ?b? M?zɩn), has been the Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) since 11 November 2004 and became President of the Palestinian National Authority on 15 January 2005 on the Fatah (فتح Fataḥ) ticket.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 10, 2011, 09:20:49 PM
Ummm...Yassar is no more.  1993 is...lemme count...18years ago.  We need a current recognition, since at this point in time, the current state of Fatah & Hamas, the 2 primary entities behind the "Palestinian Government" has said no, to an Israeli state

Meanwhile the US Constitution is a couple of centuries old and everyone who signed it is dead. Does that make it non valid?

It would if the various CURRENT U.S. GOVERNMENT ENTITIES were completely ignoring it, and publically proclaiming just the opposite.  I admire that your found "something" BT, but CURRENT reality is not serving you well, with this approach

As Grandma used to say, "Actions speak louder than words".....written nearly 20years ago

By all means, get back to me when the CURRENT President of the Palestinians PUBLICALLY acknowledges Israel's right to exist, in a 2 party state next to a Palestinian state.  THAT's what you need to provide

ball in your court
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 10, 2011, 09:32:15 PM
Published:    10.15.10, 19:06 / Israel News

Quote
During the meeting, Abbas said that in 1993, following the Oslo accords, the Palestinians recognized the State of Israel. "We want Israel to recognize the state of Palestine within the 1967 borders," the Palestinian leader told the Hadash members.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3969948,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3969948,00.html)

Back at you.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 10, 2011, 09:44:41 PM
Then there is this:

The Arab Peace Plan has received the full support of Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority, which even took the unprecedented step of placing advertisements in Israeli newspapers on November 20, 2008 to promote it.[46] The Palestinian Authority published full-page notices in Hebrew in four major Israeli daily newspapers, which reproduced the text of the Initiative in full and added that "Fifty-seven Arab and Islamic countries will establish diplomatic ties and normal relations with Israel in return for a full peace agreement and an end to the occupation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative#Re-adoption_at_the_2007_Riyadh_Summit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative#Re-adoption_at_the_2007_Riyadh_Summit)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 11, 2011, 03:54:30 AM
From your own link.....Abbas: We won't recognize Israel as Jewish state

In Ramallah meeting with Hadash party members, Palestinian president calls on Israel to 'recognize state of Palestine within 1967 borders'; says opposed to population exchanges as part of permanent agreement.  Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, adding that he was also opposed to population exchanges as part of any permanent peace agreement.

In other words, the notion that Israel is or isn't recognized is based completely on an untenable precondition, that your own link makes clear, and even you don't support

Right back atcha
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 11, 2011, 03:02:37 PM
From your own link.....Abbas: We won't recognize Israel as Jewish state

In Ramallah meeting with Hadash party members, Palestinian president calls on Israel to 'recognize state of Palestine within 1967 borders'; says opposed to population exchanges as part of permanent agreement.  Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, adding that he was also opposed to population exchanges as part of any permanent peace agreement.

In other words, the notion that Israel is or isn't recognized is based completely on an untenable precondition, that your own link makes clear, and even you don't support

Right back atcha


The challenge was that Palestinian Authorities had not recognized the State of Israel, and the challenge was met. They have, going back to Arafat. Your whole claim was that Israel had recognized a two state solution, one Israeli one Palestinian and that the Palestinians did not reciprocate. The record show different. Now if you can show where the Israelis recognized the Palestinian Authority as an Islamic State you might have a leg to stand on regarding reciprocity.

So alas the ball is in your court once again.




Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 11, 2011, 03:32:29 PM
No, the challange was you for you to demonstrate Israel's right to exist by the Palestinians.  That does not require a precondition.  They either do or they don't.  Not only have you demonstrated that CURRENTLY they do NOT, but that the precondition required is a position that even YOU do not support

ergo, your ball
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 11, 2011, 03:45:25 PM
Quote
No, the challange was you for you to demonstrate Israel's right to exist by the Palestinians. 

Recognition of the State of Israel is de facto recognition of the right to exist. The PA and the PLO has done that.

You are the one insisting on a precondition.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 11, 2011, 03:48:17 PM
Recognition on a precondition is NOT recognition.  My precondition is NO precondition.  Can't say the same with the Palestinians now, can we
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 11, 2011, 03:53:58 PM
Recognition on a precondition is NOT recognition.  My precondition is NO precondition.  Can't say the same with the Palestinians now, can we

Your insistence that Palestine recognize the State of Israel, (which they have done and is no longer in dispute) as a Jewish state is a precondition, especially when the reciprocal of that would be Israel recognizing Palestine as an Islamic state (which they haven't) and the reason they haven't is that would be extremely problematic for all the Israeli settlers in Palestinian Territory if the lines are drawn that way. Same as the case for Israeli Arabs.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 11, 2011, 04:43:02 PM
Recognition on a precondition is NOT recognition.  My precondition is NO precondition.  Can't say the same with the Palestinians now, can we

Your insistence that Palestine recognize the State of Israel....

... per YOUR LINK, has THEIR requirement that Israel return to 67 borders.  And until that time, they do NOT recognize the state of Israel, next to a Palestinian state.  Not to mention a non-starter to boot...not to mention a position that even YOU do not support

By all means, get back to us when the Palestinians have no such preconditions, and merely support the right of Israel to exist next to a Palestinian state

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 11, 2011, 04:51:06 PM
Quote
During the meeting, Abbas said that in 1993, following the Oslo accords, the Palestinians recognized the State of Israel. "We want Israel to recognize the state of Palestine within the 1967 borders," the Palestinian leader told the Hadash members.

From my link it appears that Palestine did recognize the State of Israel, without preconditions.

Their wish for Israel to reciprocate recognition to the pre-67 borders had no bearing on their own recognition of Israel. You notice they did not say and if Israel does not recognize us with the pre-67 borders we rescind our recognition of Israel's nationhood.





Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 11, 2011, 05:03:39 PM
Then you weren't paying attention to your own article....which is funny, since it was right at the top, and not somewhere in small print, in the middle.  Lemme repost it for yas

Abbas: We won't recognize Israel as Jewish state

In Ramallah meeting with Hadash party members, Palestinian president calls on Israel to 'recognize state of Palestine within 1967 borders'; says opposed to population exchanges as part of permanent agreement.  Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, adding that he was also opposed to population exchanges as part of any permanent peace agreement.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 11, 2011, 05:08:54 PM
Recognizing Israel as a Jewish State is far different than recognizing the State of Israel.

Palestine has recognized the State of Israel, has since 93.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 11, 2011, 05:16:24 PM
To recognize Israel as a country is one thing.

To recognize it as a state that gives extremely preferential treatment to Jews (or people who only claim to be Jews) is an entirely different thing.

To recognize that Alabama is one of the 50 states is a fairly easy thing to do.
To recognize Alabama as a state that has the right to discriminate based on race is something very different.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 11, 2011, 05:23:25 PM
Recognizing Israel as a Jewish State is far different than recognizing the State of Israel.

Palestine has recognized the State of Israel, has since 93.

AND CURRENTLY (read, not 1993), neither Hamas, Fatah, OR the President of the Palestinians recognize the state of Israel to exist next to a state of Palestine.......UNLESS (ahhh, those dastardly preconditions, yet again).  And note, there is no "Palestine" from whence they recognize Israel.  There are merely Palestinian refugees
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 11, 2011, 05:27:17 PM
Recognizing Israel as a Jewish State is far different than recognizing the State of Israel.

Palestine has recognized the State of Israel, has since 93.

AND CURRENTLY (read, not 1993), neither Hamas, Fatah, OR the President of the Palestinians recognize the state of Israel to exist next to a state of Palestine.......UNLESS (ahhh, those dastardly preconditions, yet again).  And note, there is no "Palestine" from whence they recognize Israel.  There are merely Palestinian refugees

Perhaps you can point out where they rescinded that recognition. Who will they negotiate with if there is no Israel?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 11, 2011, 06:46:27 PM
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, adding that he was also opposed to population exchanges as part of any permanent peace agreement.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 11, 2011, 06:52:49 PM
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, adding that he was also opposed to population exchanges as part of any permanent peace agreement.

Yes and how does that rescind the PA's longstanding recognition of Israeli Statehood?
There are reasons not to recognize the religious component of the state, but that does not mean that the political entity of Israel ceases to exist, it has as far as the Palestinians are concerned since 1993. 

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 11, 2011, 06:56:47 PM
That fact that the President of the Palestinians won't recognize Israeli's statehood, kinda says it all.  What the Israeli's do with their religious component is inmaterial.  You either recognize Israel, as it is, and where it is, or you don't

CURRENTLY, the Palestinians do not

right back atcha
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 11, 2011, 07:04:24 PM
That fact that the President of the Palestinians won't recognize Israeli's statehood, kinda says it all.  What the Israeli's do with their religious component is inmaterial.  You either recognize Israel, as it is, and where it is, or you don't

CURRENTLY, the Palestinians do not

right back atcha

That is a completely untrue statement.

And you still have not shown where they rescinded the agreements made by Arafat on their behalf.



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 01:40:11 AM
That fact that the President of the Palestinians won't recognize Israeli's statehood, kinda says it all.  What the Israeli's do with their religious component is inmaterial.  You either recognize Israel, as it is, and where it is, or you don't

CURRENTLY, the Palestinians do not

right back atcha

That is a completely untrue statement.

It ABSOLUTELY is.  Your own link even reinforced that point



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 12, 2011, 08:24:19 AM
The truth is an airy, wistful thing, floating above the treetops in the wondrous Land of sirs.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 12, 2011, 10:26:04 AM
PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas:
"We Refuse to Recognize a Jewish State"
Palestinian Authority TV - June 2, 2011 - 01:25


http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2959.htm (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2959.htm)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 01:37:46 PM
The truth is an airy, wistful thing, floating above the treetops in the wondrous Land of sirs.

Sorry if the truth is just a fantasy to some.  As I said, best stick with teaching spanish
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 01:46:13 PM
Abbas does not recognize a JEWISH state, but he does recognize the State of Israel.

Israel recognizes the Palestinian State, they have never recognized Palestine as an Islamic State.

Sirs claim was that the Palestinians never reciprocated with the Israeli's concerning statehood.

Sirs is wrong.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 02:19:16 PM
ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE...ergo, no recognition....in this lifetime, or any other apparently, by the Palestinians

Bt is wrong
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 02:27:31 PM
ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE...ergo, no recognition....in this lifetime, or any other apparently, by the Palestinians

Bt is wrong

Perhaps you can explain how Palestinian Authorities recognizing the State of Israel is not recognizing the State of Israel. Because they did recognize the State of Israel in 1993 and as far as i know they never rescinded that recognition. Not only that but they recognized the authority of the UN to create that state.

Sirs is scrambling.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 12, 2011, 03:12:20 PM
why would anybody with an ounce of brain-matter negotiate with these people?

give them land you control?

are you freakin crazy?

Former Hamas Minister of Culture
"Atallah Abu Al-Subh":
"The Jews Are the Most Despicable and Contemptible Nation to Crawl upon the Face of the Earth"

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2897.htm (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2897.htm)

Palestinian Woman in a Right-of-Return Demonstration:
Palestinians Should Massacre the Jews Like We Massacred Them in Hebron

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2929.htm (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2929.htm)

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 03:22:48 PM
why would anybody with an ounce of brain-matter negotiate with these people?

give them land you control?

are you freakin crazy?

Former Hamas Minister of Culture
"Atallah Abu Al-Subh":
"The Jews Are the Most Despicable and Contemptible Nation to Crawl upon the Face of the Earth"

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2897.htm (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2897.htm)

Palestinian Woman in a Right-of-Return Demonstration:
Palestinians Should Massacre the Jews Like We Massacred Them in Hebron

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2929.htm (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2929.htm)

Reagan negotiated with the Evil Empire.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 12, 2011, 03:28:39 PM
Reagan negotiated with the Evil Empire.

lemme know when you find where Reagan ever
negotiated land to the Russians right on the American border.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 03:35:43 PM
Reagan negotiated with the Evil Empire.

lemme know when you find where Reagan ever
negotiated land to the Russians right on the American border.

Was land an issue with the Soviets?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 12, 2011, 03:48:52 PM
Was land an issue with the Soviets?

no and thats why your analogy once again is:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MeOj6_R6CJI/TZN-LdYuPzI/AAAAAAAAAK8/NkGvMQZDFyk/s1600/apple_orange_conflict.jpg)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 12, 2011, 03:50:28 PM
The US in bases in Kazakhstan or Georgia would be a territorial issue with the USSR, of course.

Israel will not negotiate over land because Israel wants it all.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 03:53:20 PM
Was land an issue with the Soviets?

no and thats why your analogy once again is:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MeOj6_R6CJI/TZN-LdYuPzI/AAAAAAAAAK8/NkGvMQZDFyk/s1600/apple_orange_conflict.jpg)

Yet you were the one who brought up land when your original post dealt with the Palestinians demonizing the Jews.

Reagan demonized the Soviets. Apples to Apples.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 04:20:59 PM
ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE...ergo, no recognition....in this lifetime, or any other apparently, by the Palestinians

Bt is wrong

Perhaps you can explain how Palestinian Authorities recognizing the State of Israel is not recognizing the State of Israel. Because they did recognize the State of Israel in 1993 and as far as i know they never rescinded that recognition. Not only that but they recognized the authority of the UN to create that state.

This semantical spin is utterly amazing.  Something I'd see coming from the left and MSM, but now BT is demonstrating a pretty impressive proficiency for it.  It's kinda like the John Kerry answer...the PA recognizes Israel, before they didn't recognize it, with the caveat that they currently don't.  The state of Israel IS a Jewish state.  Simple as that


Sirs is scrambling.

While BT is simply wrong
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 05:06:04 PM
Unfortunately for you, before you decided to move the goal posts in a futile attempt to dodge being wrong, you stated that the PLO and the PA never recognized the State of Israel. That has been proven to be blatantly wrong.

They may not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, but then Israel has never recognized Palestine to be an Islamic State, so i'm not sure why you claim that both parties have not recognized each other. Because they have.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 05:43:10 PM
The goals posts were never moved.  The truth remains the truth.  Get back to us when the Palestinian President accepts/recognizes the state of Israel, exactly how and where it is.  (read, no preconditions of mandated borders or what religion they can practice)

And last time I checked, not once have I ever heard Bibi proclaim "Israel accepts a Palestinian state, but will not recognize a Palestinian Islamic state.  Can't say the same for Abbas now, can you"  Care to share that smoking gun, you so desperately need right now?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 05:50:49 PM
The goals posts were never moved.  The truth remains the truth.  Get back to us when the Palestinian President accepts/recognizes the state of Israel, exactly how and where it is.  (read, no preconditions of mandated borders or what religion they can practice)

And last time I checked, not once have I ever heard Bibi proclaim "Israel accepts a Palestinian state, but will not recognize a Palestinian Islamic state.  Can't say the same for Abbas now, can you"  Care to share that smoking gun, you so desperately need right now?

Been there done that (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html)

Does the US recognize Israel as a theocracy? And if they do is that constitutional?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 06:00:01 PM
No, you haven't actually.  Let's try this again?  Care to share that smoking gun, you so desperately need right now?.... Bibi proclaiming "Israel accepts a Palestinian state, but will not recognize a Palestinian Islamic state."  Something along those

Because we have the Palestinian President applying that precondition to Israel.

We accept Israel......as Israel, no preconditions, religious or otherwise, unless you can demonstrate such

That makes 2 balls in your court now
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 06:28:37 PM
What you fail to grasp is that for recognition to be reciprocal, both parties need to recognize each party equally. We have Israel recognizing the Palestinians as a governmental unit and we have the Palestinians recognizing Israel as a legitimate governmental unit.

Voila reciprocity.

For your claim that there was no reciprocity you would have to show where Israel recognized a facet of the Palestinian Government that The Palestinian Government did not return the favor with. Such as the religious make up of the parties involved.

I don't have to show Bibi doing that for the Palestinians, you have to show that he did and the Palestinians need to return the favor and recognize the Jewishness of Israel. Which they haven't and they won't for many reasons.



Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 06:43:14 PM
What you fail to grasp is the President of the Palestinians is on record as NOT RECOGNIZING ISREAL.  Now you want to try and play semantics in some half-assed effort to try and claim "see, sirs is wrong...they simply don't recognize a Jewish state of Israel", as if Israel is now required to change their religion to.....Islam perhaps, in order for the Palestinians to acknowledge them.  Then all would be hunky dory, right?

As I said, I have truth on my side.  You can keep trying to play the John Kerry game of how the Palestinians support Isreal while at they same time they don't support Israel, but your jig is up.  You can't demonstrate any similar rhetorical antics by Israel, because there are none, so you have to keep playing this When is a Jewish state not a Jewish state game.

Enjoy
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 06:52:24 PM
Quote
What you fail to grasp is the President of the Palestinians is on record as NOT RECOGNIZING ISREAL.

They are and have been on record as recognizing the legitimacy of the State of Israel since 1993.

Nothing they have said or done since then has changed that.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 06:57:46 PM
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, adding that he was also opposed to population exchanges as part of any permanent peace agreement

That would make you wrong
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 07:06:24 PM
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, adding that he was also opposed to population exchanges as part of any permanent peace agreement

That would make you wrong

Actually it does no such thing. Why do you think he is hesitant to characterize Israel as a Jewish Homeland, but has no problem recognizing the legitimacy of the State of Israel as defined by the UN?

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 07:07:31 PM
Actually it does, since Israel IS A JEWISH STATE
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 07:07:58 PM
Is the US a Christian Nation?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 12, 2011, 07:10:41 PM

Reagan negotiated with the Evil Empire.
I remember that!

Gorbachov ) Lets treat each other as equals!

Reagan)    No!










http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reykjav%C3%ADk_Summit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reykjav%C3%ADk_Summit)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 07:16:34 PM
*snicker*     
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 07:21:42 PM
*snicker*     

What were Reagan and Gorby doing in Iceland?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 07:24:15 PM
Probably not dictating under what circumstances, each's others border was going to be limited to....nor discussing the foundations of each country's religion as a precondition to recognizing the other's right to exist
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 12, 2011, 07:24:47 PM
*snicker*     

What were Reagan and Gorby doing in Iceland?

They were negotiateing Reagan style.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 07:29:20 PM
*snicker*     

What were Reagan and Gorby doing in Iceland?

They were negotiateing Reagan style.

Yes they were negotiating. What came out of those negotiations?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 07:30:19 PM
Probably not dictating under what circumstances, each's others border was going to be limited to....nor discussing the foundations of each country's religion as a precondition to recognizing the other's right to exist

No id don't believe that was on the agenda. Your point?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 07:37:44 PM
If you missed the pretty transparent point, I can't help yas
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 12, 2011, 07:38:51 PM
*snicker*     

What were Reagan and Gorby doing in Iceland?

They were negotiateing Reagan style.

Yes they were negotiating. What came out of those negotiations?

Gorbachov offered sweeping arms controll , but what could he offer that was better than the collapse of the USSR?

President Reagan said "no" to exactly what president Carter ,... or Nixon... would have asked for.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 09:15:11 PM
*snicker*     

What were Reagan and Gorby doing in Iceland?

They were negotiateing Reagan style.

Yes they were negotiating. What came out of those negotiations?

Gorbachov offered sweeping arms controll , but what could he offer that was better than the collapse of the USSR?

President Reagan said "no" to exactly what president Carter ,... or Nixon... would have asked for.

According to your link:
Result

Despite the unexpected proximity to the potential elimination of all nuclear weapons, the meeting adjourned with no agreement; however, both sides discovered the extent of the concessions the other side was willing to make.[3] Human rights became a subject of productive discussion for the first time. An agreement by Gorbachev to on-site inspections, a continuing American demand which had not been achieved in the Partial Test Ban Treaty of 1963 or the ABM and SALT I pacts of 1972, constituted a significant step forward, and foreshadowed Russian openness to such testing in future talks.

Despite its apparent failure, participants and observers have referred to the summit as an enormous breakthrough which eventually facilitated the INF Treaty (Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty), signed in Washington on December 8, 1987.

None of which would have happened if Reagan had refused to negotiate with the Evil Empire.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 12, 2011, 09:27:23 PM
According to your link:
Result

Despite the unexpected proximity to the potential elimination of all nuclear weapons, the meeting adjourned with no agreement; ......................None of which would have happened if Reagan had refused to negotiate with the Evil Empire.
So it was not useless , OK , but Reagan refused to throw the rope to the drowning USSR that Gorbachev was asking for, the demise of the Soviet Union accomplished more and better than any agreements before or since.

  So Gorbachov did not get what he needed, a rescue from Reagan.

 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 09:39:53 PM
According to your link:
Result

Despite the unexpected proximity to the potential elimination of all nuclear weapons, the meeting adjourned with no agreement; ......................None of which would have happened if Reagan had refused to negotiate with the Evil Empire.
So it was not useless , OK , but Reagan refused to throw the rope to the drowning USSR that Gorbachev was asking for, the demise of the Soviet Union accomplished more and better than any agreements before or since.

  So Gorbachov did not get what he needed, a rescue from Reagan.

In negotiations one side usually gets more of what it wants than the other. Perhaps Reykjavik was the antidote to Yalta.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 12, 2011, 10:10:14 PM
Negotiations don't have to be even, but both sides should have something to offer, elese
"negotiation" is the wrong word to use.

What do Palestinians have to offer?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 10:13:09 PM
Negotiations don't have to be even, but both sides should have something to offer, elese
"negotiation" is the wrong word to use.

What do Palestinians have to offer?

Peace
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 10:17:26 PM
I think what Bt is so struggling to convey, is that despite the fact that U.S. and USSR were largely opponents, largely evil in each other's eyes, they still managed to sit down and negotiate......something

Some major problems in trying to compare that apples to the Middle East orange. 
- As Plane has demonstrated, Regan did not back down to what Russia wanted
- Neither the U.S. nor Russia were not acknowledging the others existence.  They both knew and accepted the other's right to exist (both being able to take each other out with a plethora of nukes)
- they weren't connected by a border

I could go on, but the point is that yea, they did negotiate, but as so many have been demonstrating here that messers Bt & Xo keep ignoring is that the truth of the matter is in this 2 party state like "outcome", one of the states has as one of its leading Governing charters, the destruction of the other state.  And as Xo nicely demonstrated, it was a plurality of Palestinians that voted in that sect

There is no negotiations when 1 of the 2 parties wants your destruction.  And no, you can't get away with well, its the Jewish state of Israel that won't be recognized.  The other state would......and what other state would that be??, since the Israel is the only state here in question, and it is a Jewish state       ::)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 10:26:24 PM
Quote
- they weren't connected by a border

Don't tell Sarah Palin that.

BTW could you remind me again when it was that Israel recognized a Palestinian State? Not when they acknowledged that the PLO would be the responsible representative of the Palestinian Peoples but when they recognized the existence of a Palestinian State?

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 12, 2011, 10:35:51 PM
Quote
- they weren't connected by a border

Don't tell Sarah Palin that.

Seeing and connecting are 2 different things.  But nice to see how quick you are to jump on the bashing Palin bandwagon


BTW could you remind me again when it was that Israel recognized a Palestinian State?

I've googled more than dozens of references where Israel was acknowledging the that of a Palestinian state, existing right next to an Isreali one.  Are you wising me to post a bunch of them where Bibi alone makes that reference??  Really? 

Or are you about to pull another semantic game, since currently there is no "Palestinian state" to be recognized


Negotiations don't have to be even, but both sides should have something to offer, elese
"negotiation" is the wrong word to use.

What do Palestinians have to offer?

Peace

And yet you've already convinced me there can be none.  How do you settle that bit of disconnect?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 12, 2011, 10:44:00 PM
Negotiations don't have to be even, but both sides should have something to offer, elese
"negotiation" is the wrong word to use.

What do Palestinians have to offer?

Peace
  I don't beleive that they have this to offer.

If by "peace" you mean that the Palestinians will behave peacefully, the Syrians will not attack , that Lebanon will not harbor rocketeers, that Gazans will capture and prevent misseleers etc...

I don't think they have this to offer.

Take just one of these possibilitys , do the Palestinians civil authority controll the suicide bombers?  They don't or can't admit they do .
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 10:55:19 PM
Negotiations don't have to be even, but both sides should have something to offer, elese
"negotiation" is the wrong word to use.

What do Palestinians have to offer?

Peace
  I don't beleive that they have this to offer.

If by "peace" you mean that the Palestinians will behave peacefully, the Syrians will not attack , that Lebanon will not harbor rocketeers, that Gazans will capture and prevent misseleers etc...

I don't think they have this to offer.

Take just one of these possibilitys , do the Palestinians civil authority controll the suicide bombers?  They don't or can't admit they do .

I think that Palestine should be able to control the Palestinians about as much as the US Law enforcement groups can control US citizenry. I don't think they can control what goes on in Lebanon or Syria.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 10:59:47 PM
Quote
Seeing and connecting are 2 different things.  But nice to see how quick you are to jump on the bashing Palin bandwagon

The fact remains that the US and Russia do share a border. And i don't see how you get that i was bashing Palin.

(http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Us-su-maritime.jpg/350px-Us-su-maritime.jpg)

Post what you have re: Israel recognizing an existing Palestinian State.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 12, 2011, 11:02:50 PM
Negotiations don't have to be even, but both sides should have something to offer, elese
"negotiation" is the wrong word to use.

What do Palestinians have to offer?

Peace
  I don't beleive that they have this to offer.

If by "peace" you mean that the Palestinians will behave peacefully, the Syrians will not attack , that Lebanon will not harbor rocketeers, that Gazans will capture and prevent misseleers etc...

I don't think they have this to offer.

Take just one of these possibilitys , do the Palestinians civil authority controll the suicide bombers?  They don't or can't admit they do .

I think that Palestine should be able to control the Palestinians about as much as the US Law enforcement groups can control US citizenry. I don't think they can control what goes on in Lebanon or Syria.

So all they have to offer is to lock up their own heros?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 12, 2011, 11:15:42 PM
Compare what should happen in Paslisrael with what has happened in Northern Ireland in the last 25 years or so.

It is hardly impossible.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 11:18:10 PM
Quote
So all they have to offer is to lock up their own heros?

I wouldn't be surprised if amnesty was involved once the need for "heroes" was alleviated.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 12, 2011, 11:19:35 PM
Compare what should happen in Paslisrael with what has happened in Northern Ireland in the last 25 years or so.

It is hardly impossible.

What has happened in Northern Ireland in the last 400 years you mean.

This kind of trouble can be very persistant.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 11:24:32 PM
Compare what should happen in Paslisrael with what has happened in Northern Ireland in the last 25 years or so.

It is hardly impossible.

What has happened in Northern Ireland in the last 400 years you mean.

This kind of trouble can be very persistant.

Perhaps the belligerents haven't been properly incentivized. Thus my Nuclear carrot/stick.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 12, 2011, 11:26:34 PM
Compare what should happen in Paslisrael with what has happened in Northern Ireland in the last 25 years or so.

It is hardly impossible.

What has happened in Northern Ireland in the last 400 years you mean.

This kind of trouble can be very persistant.

Perhaps the belligerents haven't been properly incentivized. Thus my Nuclear carrot/stick.
What was the carrot?

Is a fatal one time only stick really credable?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 12, 2011, 11:29:21 PM
Quote
Is a fatal one time only stick really credable?

Condom sales are certainly up.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 13, 2011, 12:11:52 AM
Quote
Is a fatal one time only stick really credable?

Condom sales are certainly up.

In Palistine?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 13, 2011, 12:45:03 AM
Quote
Seeing and connecting are 2 different things.  But nice to see how quick you are to jump on the bashing Palin bandwagon

The fact remains that the US and Russia do share a border. And i don't see how you get that i was bashing Palin.

LOL....the "border" is in the ocean.  I think it was pretty transparent that I was referencing land borders.  And the bashing was in how Palin was ridiculed for "seeing" Russia from Alaska, and there you were joking about it, how we should't tell Palin about them not being connected


Post what you have re: Israel recognizing an existing Palestinian State.

Are you going to play the semantic game about a literal "Palestinian state"??  Because that's not what I've been referencing at all, nor does one currently exist.  It's been in referencing Israel's acceptance of having a Palestinian state next to an Israeli state.  You want a plethora of THOSE links??
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 13, 2011, 01:30:46 AM
Quote
Is a fatal one time only stick really credable?

Condom sales are certainly up.

In Palistine?

Mostly in places where not using one could be fatal, eventually.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 13, 2011, 01:39:38 AM
Quote
Seeing and connecting are 2 different things.  But nice to see how quick you are to jump on the bashing Palin bandwagon

The fact remains that the US and Russia do share a border. And i don't see how you get that i was bashing Palin.

LOL....the "border" is in the ocean.  I think it was pretty transparent that I was referencing land borders.  And the bashing was in how Palin was ridiculed for "seeing" Russia from Alaska, and there you were joking about it, how we should't tell Palin about them not being connected

What do you think is under the water?


Post what you have re: Israel recognizing an existing Palestinian State.

Are you going to play the semantic game about a literal "Palestinian state"??  Because that's not what I've been referencing at all, nor does one currently exist.  It's been in referencing Israel's acceptance of having a Palestinian state next to an Israeli state.  You want a plethora of THOSE links??

Sure and while your at it could you clear up whether Egypt and Jordan were required to recognize the "Jewish" State of Israel as part of the peace treaties with those two countries.


Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 13, 2011, 02:01:50 AM
Nice deflection effort.  I'll stick with the current issue and topic at hand...the one that includes the Palestinians not recognizing a (Jewish) Israeli state in this supposed 2 state arrangement.  As if there were some other form
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 13, 2011, 02:43:03 AM
Nice deflection effort.  I'll stick with the current issue and topic at hand...the one that includes the Palestinians not recognizing a (Jewish) Israeli state in this supposed 2 state arrangement.  As if there were some other form

Just trying to determine if this is a new demand by bibi or is this language that has historically been used. Past is prologue, no? Consistency is the key.

Does Israel declare itself a Jewish State in its constitution?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 13, 2011, 03:03:42 AM
No demands, other than no preconditions.  Simple as that
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 13, 2011, 03:16:31 AM
No demands, other than no preconditions.  Simple as that

I'll take that as the recognition of a Jewish State language was not required of Egypt or Jordan. As Israel does not have a formal constitution, the language is not there either.

So why do you think Bibi is insisting on it now?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 13, 2011, 03:41:09 AM
Take it any way you wish.  Truth remains the truth....Palestinian president will not recognize A (Jewish) Israel state, next to a Palestinian state.  Compliments nicely that of Fatah & Hamas' mindset

Yep, no peace to be had here.  Best Israel keep as much defensible land as possible
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 13, 2011, 04:09:40 AM
Take it any way you wish.  Truth remains the truth....Palestinian president will not recognize A (Jewish) Israel state, next to a Palestinian state.  Compliments nicely that of Fatah & Hamas' mindset

Yep, no peace to be had here.  Best Israel keep as much defensible land as possible

So  this whole was much ado about nothing?

I think the only way Israel remains a Jewish State is if they forgo democracy. And how would that gel with US interests?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 13, 2011, 04:13:08 AM
Take it any way you wish.  Truth remains the truth....Palestinian president will not recognize A (Jewish) Israel state, next to a Palestinian state.  Compliments nicely that of Fatah & Hamas' mindset

Yep, no peace to be had here.  Best Israel keep as much defensible land as possible

So  this whole was much ado about nothing?

You, convinced me of that....there will be no peace.  You should give yourself a pat on the back

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 13, 2011, 10:32:10 AM
Well it's obvious the Israeli's are not seriously seeking peace.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 13, 2011, 11:04:31 AM
None of which would have happened if Reagan had refused to negotiate with the Evil Empire.

BT pretending again.....
Pretending an apple is an orange
As if Reagan would have negotiated shit if Russia was lobbing rockets into the United States.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/19/hamas-fires-missiles-into-israel/ (http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/19/hamas-fires-missiles-into-israel/)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 13, 2011, 11:30:50 AM
Well it's obvious the Israeli's are not seriously seeking peace.

No need to any longer.  The other party in this 2 party arrangement, was never serious
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 13, 2011, 11:37:53 AM
Israel does not have defensible borders now. It will not have them if it agrees to a peace treaty. If you look at a map, you will see, that there is no way that Israel could ever have defensible borders.

Iceland has defensible borders. maybe Switzerland as well, after major modifications made before WWII.

Israel can only make a deal not to attack or be attacked by a neighboring state, just as the US, Canada and Mexico have done.

The rockets are a minor annoyance. It would not surprise me to discover that they are secretly funded and encouraged by Netanyahu as a phony excuse.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 13, 2011, 11:49:42 AM
Israel does not have defensible borders now.

Sure it does.


It will not have them if it agrees to a peace treaty.  If you look at a map, you will see, that there is no way that Israel could ever have defensible borders.

Since there will be no peace, except after another war, and IF YOU LOOKED AT THAT MAP, the areas taken in DEFENSE of their country (read; NOT STOLEN) indeed provide higher ground and greater buffers from their more populated centers.  Never said "completely and utterly defensible", Just more so. 


Israel can only make a deal not to attack or be attacked by a neighboring state, just as the US, Canada and Mexico have done.

Which had a foundation that the other countries, Canada & Mexico recognized the U.S.'s presence, and neither had no governing mandate to rid the region of the U.S.  Since that's not the case here, and since there can be no peace, Israel can do whatever it needs to to survive

And how the hell is its Israel's responsibility not to be attacked??  Who enforces that part of your fantasy arrangement??


The rockets are a minor annoyance. It would not surprise me to discover that they are secretly funded and encouraged by Netanyahu as a phony excuse.

Speaking of fantasies     ::)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 14, 2011, 05:25:48 PM
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Media%20Logos/91ee888d.gif)

Document: Syria orchestrated border battles with Israel

June 14, 2011

A leaked Syrian government document shows that the regime
orchestrated last month's border clashes with Israel.


Syrian security forces were told to grant free passage to 20 protester-filled buses and to allow them to cross the cease-fire line with Israel, according to the memorandum, which was which
was obtained by The Daily Telegraph.

"All security, military, and contingent units are hereby ordered to grant permission of passage to all twenty vehicles (47 passenger capacity) with the attached plate numbers that are scheduled to arrive at ten in the morning on Sunday May 15, 2011 without being questioned or stopped until it reaches or frontier defense locations," the document says.

"Permission is hereby granted allowing approaching crowds to cross the cease fire line (with Israel) towards the occupied Majdal-Shamms, and to further allow them to engage physically with each other in front of United Nations agents and offices."

"It is essential to ensure that no one carries military identification or a weapon as they enter with a strict emphasis on the peaceful and spontaneous nature of the protest," the note adds.
Israeli troops patrol the border between Israel and Syria near the village of Majdal Shams in the Golan Heights early on Monday, June 6, 2011. Israel braced for more border violence after a day of deadly clashes with pro-Palestinian protesters who tried to surge into the Israeli-controlled Golan from Syria.

The memorandum also describes an "urgent meeting" between the army's deputy chief of staff and senior intelligence officials in a Syrian province adjacent to the Israeli border.

The document, which bears the Syrian state emblem and the signature of the mayor of Al-Qunaitera province, is dated May 14, 2011, the day before the clashes, which took place alongside smiliar rushes on Israel's borders with Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.
The clashes turned deadly when Israeli forces fired on infiltrators who had breached the border.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/14/document-syria-orchestrated-border-battles-israel/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/14/document-syria-orchestrated-border-battles-israel/)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 14, 2011, 05:35:36 PM
I'm stunned.......I tell yas.....stunned that an Arab country would organize protesters, risking their very lives, in order to hopefully give a PR black eye to Israel.

Stunned, I tell yas
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 15, 2011, 01:02:46 PM
Syria and Israel rather seem to deserve one another. Too bad everyone else has to share a planet with them.If we did not have to do this, it could be like one of those Star Trek episodes where Spock, McCoy and Kirk all resolve the problems in 45 minutes.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 15, 2011, 08:25:58 PM
I get a kick out of these interesting tacts taken...

BT wants peace, but has made it crystal clear there can be none, so advocates that Israel "negotiate" with a party bent on its destruction, because, hey, we negotiated with Russia.  Can't start to count all the flaws to that apples/oranges effort. 

Then we have Xo, who conveniently keeps ignoring the truth of who's lands the Israelis took IN THE DEFENSE OF THEIR VERY EXISTANCE (hint, it was neither stolen nor Palestinian land), infers that Israel is the real evil in the region, and that the Palestinians held very lawful elections, with a "plurality" of Palestinians electing Hamas (along with their Israeli destruction mandate), and that apparently mandates that Israel "negotiate" with them....or else

So surreal

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 16, 2011, 12:10:42 AM
I'm stunned.......I tell yas.....stunned that an Arab country would organize protesters, risking their very lives, in order to hopefully give a PR black eye to Israel.

Stunned, I tell yas

What is amazing is that Syria is so powerful that they can force Israeli Military to respond to the protestors with live rounds, killing 20 and wounding another 325.

Poor Israel, what can they do. They don't control their chain of command, Syria does.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 16, 2011, 01:21:06 AM
Well that's funny....I could have sworn we had this conversation before, in which I had no problem with the force used, merely that the Israelis could have used lesser force.  And that if the intention was to actually kill, there'd be 300+ deaths

Good for Israel, not only did they send the proper message, especially in the goal of preventing future illegal crossings, now the background of the "protesting" by the likes of Syria has also been brought to light
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 16, 2011, 01:35:18 AM
Whenever anyone points a loaded gun at anyone and fires, that is a clear attention to kill.

This was not a proud moment in the history of Zionism/
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 16, 2011, 01:38:14 AM
Apparently Xo believes that Israel has a horribly inept army, not to mention the worse snipers of any country with a modern day military apparently.  a 16% kill ratio?  how pathetic
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 16, 2011, 06:44:06 AM
Yeah Syria set out to give Israel a PR black eye and the dumb Israeli schmucks fell for it.

Those Syrians are so smart!
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on June 16, 2011, 08:11:41 AM
It should surprise no one that Syria can control the reactions of the IDF. The Israeli military has been fighting a disorganized insurgency for 60 years and it can't beat them, and it can't negotiate successfully with them. Sixty years, and they have nothing to show for their effort in this, most important, regard.


BSB
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 16, 2011, 10:37:31 AM
It should surprise no one that Syria can control the reactions of the IDF. The Israeli military has been fighting a disorganized insurgency for 60 years and it can't beat them, and it can't negotiate successfully with them. Sixty years, and they have nothing to show for their effort in this, most important, regard.


BSB

What do you mean?

Keeping the opposition disorganised for 60 years is not a success?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 16, 2011, 11:15:11 AM
No, it is NOT a success.

That is why everyone hates Israel.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BSB on June 16, 2011, 11:26:53 AM
Much of the insurgencies disorganization is of their own making. As in the leaders they've picked. But either way, no, that is hardly a success. If anything you could argue that the disorganization, ie poor leadership, of the insurgency has just kept the ball rolling.


BSB

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 16, 2011, 11:35:52 AM
Yeah Syria set out to give Israel a PR black eye and the dumb Israeli schmucks fell for it.

Naaaa, the Syrians sought to give a PR black eye to the Israelis, and the "protester" schmucks fell for it


Those Syrians are so smart!

and those "protesters", not so much
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 16, 2011, 12:14:38 PM
It was really stupid for the Palestinians to charge across the Israeli border from a personal point of view. It was even more stupid for Israel to gun them down.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 16, 2011, 12:42:13 PM
It was really stupid for the Palestinians to charge across the Israeli border from a personal point of view.  

Yep......apparently so easily manipulated by the Syrians.  Must have been a bunch of "dumb schmucks", it would seem


It was even more stupid for Israel to gun them down.

Not if the message was "Don't do it again".  Pretty shrewed, if you ask me.  Just enough casualties to give any future "protester" cause to rethink such a practice of illegally crossing into Israel.  Can't say the same if it were a bunch of water cannons now, can you
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 16, 2011, 03:15:54 PM
I can say that using water cannons would have been far more humane and just as effective.

Killing unarmed people is an abomination.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 16, 2011, 03:19:49 PM
"Humane" yea.  Effective at preventing future ILLEGAL crossings, not so much
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 16, 2011, 08:58:21 PM
So i guess the real question is whether Syria set out to give Israel a PR black eye and whether they succeeded in doing so.

The mere fact that there is a discussion going on in here about the level of force used by Israel to repel the protestors indicates at a minimum that Syria was at least partially successful.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 17, 2011, 12:33:42 AM
Killing people unnecessarily is just wrong.

The Palestinians were stupid to cross that border, but the Israelis were barbaric to kill them. They have lots of non-lethal weapons and that is all they needed.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2011, 02:46:42 AM
So i guess the real question is whether Syria set out to give Israel a PR black eye and whether they succeeded in doing so.

It's in the eye of the beholder.  For those intent on seeing that Israel got a black eye, they did.  For those that saw Israel deal with an ongoing threat, with numerous warnings given, and the disposition Israel finds itself in compared to that of ...oh say the U.S. & evil Russia, not so much


The mere fact that there is a discussion going on in here about the level of force used by Israel to repel the protestors indicates at a minimum that Syria was at least partially successful.

To those pehaps intent on seeing that either Israel get a black eye or intent on Israel negotiate with that that can not be negotiated with


Killing people unnecessarily is just wrong.

Once folks start leaving Israel alone, there'll be no more "killings"
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 17, 2011, 11:21:16 AM
The problem is not that no one leaves Israel alone. It is that Israel refuses to leave others alone. It is constantly cutting down centuries old olive trees, holding Palestinians up at hundreds of checkpoints every day, moving fanatic Orthodox creepoids into the middle of Palestinian neighborhoods, supporting murderous and sicko fanatics in Hebron, even after one of them went apeshit and murdered a couple of dozen people praying in a mosque, expanding settlements in the West bank and generally being hostile and obnoxious. Gunning people down indiscriminately and unnecessarily is just a part of it.

Screw Netanyahu and screw the Zionists.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2011, 11:31:09 AM
The problem is not that no one leaves Israel alone.

The problem is PRECISELY that.  Thus there will be no peace, and "killings" will continue.  Glad we got that cleared up


It is that Israel refuses to leave others alone.

Israel isn't lobbing rockets, or blowing up buses.  Israel doesn't have a mandate to push Egypt, or Syria, or even Iran into the sea.  Israel isn't openly attacking others who are not confirmed as terrorists.  So, for the ignorant folks, Israel is only RESPONDING to those who won't leave them and their lands alone


Screw Netanyahu and screw the Zionists.

You mean, screw the Palestinians, who are the ones being used as fodder in yours & the surrounding Arab nations' ongoing Antisemitic rants.  Never could get around who's "lands" the WB & Golan belonged to, prior to the 67war, could you     ;)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 17, 2011, 01:37:33 PM
Israel doesn't have a mandate to push Egypt, or Syria, or even Iran into the sea.
==========================================================
Iran? Have you ever SEEN a map?

This would be like Finland pushing Kazakhstan into the sea.


No one will ever push anyone into the sea. That is nonsense. If somehow Israel ceased to exist and ALL the Jews had to leave, they would be in the US, Canada, Australia and wherever. "pushing into the sea" is a stupid phrase used by both sides, is infantile and of no merit whatever.


Israel has killed far more Palestinians, far more women and children as well, than the Palestinians ever have.
The rest of the world knows this. That is why Israel has few allies. They are goons, they are colonizing after colonies have been declared illegal. And they are doing it with MY money, and I dislike them for it.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2011, 02:06:22 PM
Israel doesn't have a mandate to push Egypt, or Syria, or even Iran into the sea.  ==========================================================
Iran? Have you ever SEEN a map?

This would be like Finland pushing Kazakhstan into the sea.

<-------------------------------- . --------------------------------









Xo's head -->  :o


Mr literal strikes again.    ::)    It was never about literally pushing a country into a body of water Xo.  It's in the issues of trying to bring an end to a country.  Arab nations have been trying to "push Israel into the sea" for generations now.  Have you grasped the concept yet??


Israel has killed far more Palestinians, far more women and children as well, than the Palestinians ever have.  The rest of the world knows this.  

The rest of the world also knows what the Arab nations have been trying to do to Israel, for generations.  The rest of the of the world knows who's lands the Golan Heights and the West Bank belonged to, prior to their efforts to "push Israel into the sea".  The vast majority of America supports Israel's efforts to defend itself.  That is why it will always have an allie in the U.S.

 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 17, 2011, 04:11:56 PM
I actually do not give a sh!t.

Zionism is a bad idea that just keeps getting worse.

And their reputation gets worse and worse. If the day comes when the Arabs and others in the area have representative governments they will look worse to everyone.

I imagine that eventually they will step over the line and even Americans will abandon their goonish asses.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2011, 04:33:35 PM
I actually do not give a sh!t.  

Sure you do...you spend all this time and bandwith trying to "demonize" (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/nice-insight-into-'union-leadership'/msg126675/#msg126675) Israel and Netanyahu, all the while ignoring how Israel came about in gaining the territories they currently control, and whose lands they beloned with, to begin with


I imagine that eventually they will step over the line and even Americans will abandon their goonish asses.

Not likely to happen in our lifetime, given the recent polling
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 17, 2011, 09:20:32 PM
Not likely to happen in our lifetime, given the recent polling

==============================================
The assumption that anyone polled NOW will have the same opinion for an entire lifetime is seriously defective.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2011, 09:35:50 PM
Reading for comprehension.....a strange omision for a language professor
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 18, 2011, 12:25:32 AM
Quote
The assumption that anyone polled NOW will have the same opinion for an entire lifetime is seriously defective.

Sounds like a true statement to me. Especially when one weighs in the evidence that Syria can manipulate the Israeli Army and make them shoot unarmed protestors as easy as pulling the strings of a puppet, indirectly at that, using puppet Palestinians as pawns in the game.

Is a country that easily manipulated worth this countries treasure? Is Israel another bottomless money pit like Afghanistan and Pakistan? Why? So they can set up a nation where one class gets to vote and the others do not? Isn't that the true reason for demanding recognition as a Jewish State, so that demographics can be manipulated and a caste system put in place?

Is that the America we think we believe in?








Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 18, 2011, 02:17:37 AM
Quote
The assumption that anyone polled NOW will have the same opinion for an entire lifetime is seriously defective.

Sounds like a true statement to me.

True if the intent was that polling now guaranteed results later.  Since that's a ludicrous position, its a ludicrous assumption to imply that was the intent.  Looks like more of that trying to claim sirs' intention, despite ample evidence to the contrary, again.  Sad

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 18, 2011, 02:46:32 AM
Quote
True if the intent was that polling now guaranteed results later.

But you did guarantee that it would be unlikely for a change in attitudes during our lifetime.

Quote
Not likely to happen in our lifetime, given the recent polling

Let's hazard a guess that the average age in this forum is on the cusp of 50. XO, BSB and I skew it higher than it probably is. And let's guess that the average life expectancy would be 70. So what you are claiming is you do not see a change in attitudes towards Israel for the next 20 years and I'm pretty sure that will not be the case. Of course a lot of that depends on Israels behavior.


 
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 18, 2011, 03:16:21 AM
More to the point, was my reference made in a vacuum, where a poll now guarantees a specific outcome, for even one lifetime.  Merely likely, given current polling       ::)
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 18, 2011, 03:20:04 AM
More to the point, was my reference made in a vacuum, where a poll now guarantees a specific outcome, for even one lifetime.  Merely likely, given current polling       ::)

That makes no sense.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 18, 2011, 05:04:05 AM
Perhaps Plane or Cu4 can explain it to you & Xo
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 18, 2011, 11:28:01 AM
A poll given today, can, at best, reveal attitudes held today.

No poll can predict what attitudes people will have over a lifetime.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 18, 2011, 12:38:31 PM
Perhaps Plane or Cu4 can explain it to you & Xo

I look forward to their translation skills.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 18, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
I'll give you a hint at any of their translating.......merely likely, given current & trending polling
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: BT on June 18, 2011, 01:51:49 PM
I'll give you a hint at any of their translating.......merely likely, given current & trending polling

Let's see what they have to say.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 18, 2011, 02:26:26 PM
Let's see what they have to say.

you guys spend so much time and effort on "define is" type stuff
that I loose track and loose interest to even respond...
sorry no comment...because I dont even know what the question is.
i do predict Israeli & American soldiers will one day be in the same trenches together fighting IslamoNazis.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 18, 2011, 04:50:59 PM
i do predict Israeli & American soldiers will one day be in the same trenches together fighting IslamoNazis.

===============================================================================
How could this possibly happen? Israel is the Kiss of Death to US policy.

Have you noticed that the US has gotten involved in many wars and conflicts since 1947 and has had many, many allies, and NEVER has Israel been a true ally. They have attacked our sailors, though, in the Liberty incident.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 18, 2011, 07:39:06 PM
How could this possibly happen? Israel is the Kiss of Death to US policy.

You've got to be kidding?
LOL how could US and Israeli soldiers be fighting side by side?
Ummmm wow...lets see....
If in the future Israel is attacked from all sides...
And Israel needs help to survive...
US troops will be landing in Israel
No doubt about it.
There are already US military personnel operating inside Israel

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 19, 2011, 12:06:28 AM
How is Israel going to be attacked from all sides.

Assad can no longer govern in Syria.

Lebanon has no organized army.

Egypt and Jordan have treaties with Israel. Both countries have far too many problems of their own to attack Israel.

Iran would certainly not stage a land invasion: look at a map to see why.

It is rather unlikely that Israel would be attacked from the sea, being as the US dominates the Mediterranean. I don't think any of Israel's potential enemies have anything that could be described as a navy.

Note that Israel has been involved in wars with its neighbors before, and the US has sent no troops. Once, Israel fired on an American ship, the Liberty, though. This was probably intentional.

I suggest that the scenario you believe in is less likely now than ever before.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 19, 2011, 12:40:43 PM
How is Israel going to be attacked from all sides.

Assad can no longer govern in Syria.

Lebanon has no organized army.

Egypt and Jordan have treaties with Israel. Both countries have far too many problems of their own to attack Israel.

Iran would certainly not stage a land invasion: look at a map to see why.

It is rather unlikely that Israel would be attacked from the sea, being as the US dominates the Mediterranean. I don't think any of Israel's potential enemies have anything that could be described as a navy.

Note that Israel has been involved in wars with its neighbors before, and the US has sent no troops. Once, Israel fired on an American ship, the Liberty, though. This was probably intentional.

I suggest that the scenario you believe in is less likely now than ever before.


Wow!

So the Palestinian cause is weakened by these developments?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 19, 2011, 01:38:54 PM
Wow!

So the Palestinian cause is weakened by these developments?
====================================================
The statement was that the US would send troops to fight in the trenches alongside the Israelis, when they were under attack from "all sides".

I would say that with the US Navy in the Mediterranean and Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan all out of the picture, that this would make an attack from "all sides" considerably less likely.

I observe that Israel attacked Hamas in Gaza recently and stomped them flat with practically no resistance at all, and the WB Palestinians did not even bother to join in the fray.

I doubt that any wars will be fought much  in trenches, either.
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Plane on June 19, 2011, 01:45:04 PM
You make it sound as if the Palestinians have already lost.

Since all they have to offer in negotiations is "peace" why talk to them ?
Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 19, 2011, 01:51:16 PM
Because the Palestinians have a right to their country, much of which was taken from them by armed force by the Israels. As I have repeatedly pointed out, this is in violation of the UN Charter. The UN allowed Israel to be created, and the least Israel can do in return is to abide by the UN resolutions on this issue.

It is also true that Israel is in an untenable position because of the disparate growth rates of Israelis and Palestinians.

Title: Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
Post by: sirs on June 19, 2011, 02:19:54 PM
Messers Jordan, Syria & Egypt shouldn't have attacked Isreal then now, should they of