DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on May 26, 2011, 02:17:14 PM

Title: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 26, 2011, 02:17:14 PM
Debunking our myths about Israel
By Ira Chernus

    *

Debunking our myths about Israel
AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov
An Israeli tank advances near an army base on the Israel Gaza border in southern Israel, Sunday, May 8, 2011.
This originally appeared on TomDispatch.

Tuches aufn tish: Buttocks on the table. That's the colorful way my Yiddish-speaking ancestors said, "Let's cut the BS and talk about honest truth." It seems like a particularly apt expression after a week watching the shadow-boxing between President Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that brought no tangible progress toward an Israeli-Palestinian peace.

The truth, like the table, is usually hard and uncomfortable. President Obama's carefully hedged public call for a two-state solution along Israel's 1967 borders may indeed represent a new step. Maybe it will even prove part of some long-range game plan that will eventually pay off. But here's the problem: as of now, Obama shows no inclination to back his words with the power the U.S. government could wield. Until he does, those words won't provoke any change in Israel's domination of the Palestinians.

And there's a deeper issue. The influential Israeli columnist Sever Plocker pointed to the heart of the matter: the American president has "unequivocally adopted the essence of the Israeli-Zionist narrative." Plocker might have said the same about all top American political leaders and the U.S. media as well. The American conversation about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is dominated by the story that most Israelis tell.

Ass-Backward Realities

Tuches aufn tish. Let's be honest. The Israeli story doesn't merely distort the truth, it turns the truth ass-backwards. Eerily enough, its basic claims about the Palestinians more accurately describe the Israelis themselves.

    * Continue reading

The Israelis might as well be looking in the mirror and talking about themselves when they say things like "They are the aggressors; we're the victims just defending ourselves." That's part of an Israeli-generated myth of insecurity whose premise is that Israel bears all the risk in the conflict with the Palestinians. Obama fed into that myth in his recent "Arab Spring" speech when he called, in effect, for an even swap: the Palestinians would get a state and the Israelis would get security, as if the massively stronger Israelis are the main ones suffering from insecurity.

In the process, he repeated a familiar mantra, "Our commitment to Israel's security is unshakeable," and offered a vague warning that "technology will make it harder for Israel to defend itself." Perhaps that was a coded way of hinting that someday some other Mideast nation might have a handful of nuclear weapons -- as if any of them could threaten Israel, which already has as many as 200 nukes and can surely build more.

Obama did make one reference to what he called "the assumption of Palestinian security." That's how the Israelis typically phrase their long-standing hope that the Palestinian police will become what Netanyahu once called Israel's "sub-contractors," taking over from Israeli soldiers the job of quashing resistance to Israel and its policies. Again, the premise is that Israel bears all the risk.

Yet the Palestinians are far more insecure than the Israelis. Like any victims of colonial military occupation, they're constantly subject to the threat of death and destruction without notice, at the whim of the Israeli military, and increasingly from Israeli settlers as well. Over the last quarter-century, the conflict has killed roughly eleven Palestinians for every Israeli who died. And yet you'll never find this line in the speech of an American politician: "Our commitment to Palestine's security is unshakeable."

Obama did declare that "every state has the right to self-defense." In the next breath, however, he demanded that a new Palestinian state must have no army. Would any sovereign nation accept such a demand, especially if its closest neighbor had dominated and pummeled its people for years and possessed by far the most powerful military in the region? Yet the idea of a "demilitarized" Palestinian state is a given in the U.S. and Israel, as if the only conceivable future threat could come from those occupied, not from the former occupier.

The staggering power imbalance between occupier and occupied points to another looking-glass-style distortion that dominates America's conversation about the issue: the absurd idea that the two parties could negotiate as equals, that the weaker of the two, which has already given up approximately 78 percent of its territory, must be the one to make the major compromises, and then operate as a nation from a position of utter weakness.

Obama told a meeting of Jewish leaders in private that he knows the truth of the situation: "Israel is the stronger party here… And Israel needs to create the context for [peace] to happen." But as long as his public words reinforce the myth of Israel's insecurity, the Israelis can safely resist any demands for change.

Staring into the Mirror

The Israelis justify their intransigence with yet another looking-glass claim: "We want peace more than anything, but they have no interest in peace." Israelis love to repeat a phrase coined decades ago by their foreign minister Abba Eban, speaking about Arab leaders: "They never miss a chance to miss a chance for peace."

In reality, it's the Palestinians who should lodge that complaint against Israel."Israel's right needs perpetual war" is the way the eminent Israeli intellectual Zeev Sternhell sums up the situation. Netanyahu, like all right-wing Israeli leaders, has in fact built his career on his image as the toughest of hawks when it comes to the Palestinians. With the Israeli electorate shifting steadily rightward in the twenty-first century, that image serves him better than ever. So, even as he pleads his devotion to peace, he shows no interest in actually ending the conflict -- and the creeping Israeli program of ongoing settlement-building in East Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank only guarantees that the conflict will continue.

As it happens, however, the need for an enemy, and so for an ongoing conflict, isn't restricted to the political right or the settlers. "Our enemies have made us one, and, thus united, we suddenly discover our strength" Theodore Herzl wrote in Zionism's founding tract, "The Jews' State." And perceptive Israeli commentators have been asking for years what would hold Israeli Jews together if they had no common Arab or Palestinian enemy. That is still "the defining question" for all Israelis, according to Avraham Burg, former speaker of the Israeli Knesset: "Can we continue to exist without a perennial adversary, without being victims of persecution?"

Sadly, the answer for most Israelis seems to be: no. A prominent Jewish columnist in the Jerusalem Post said it best: "Israelis get mad when you tell them we don't have to keep going to war, that we're strong enough to deter our enemies… People don't want to hear anything about possibilities for peace… All they want to hear is ein breira, we have no choice, it's either fight or die."

Israeli political life suffers from "a real obsession," according to the editors of Israel's most respected newspaper, Haaretz, "a sense that we are constantly under attack.. an insanity of persecution."

That's an old story, of course. "Israel's position today is similar to its position after the wars of 1948 and of 1967," an editorial in Haaretz noted: "The potential for negotiations was there, but the [political] cost was considered too high. Now, too, maintaining the status quo appears to be preferable to making changes that Israelis perceive as threatening, even if they do not necessarily pose a genuine danger."

The recent Hamas-Fatah reconciliation gave Israelis a new imaginary danger to worry about. The news of Palestinian unity launched a verbal tsunami in Israel, a flood of warnings that a far-right theocratic ideology might easily take control of a Palestinian state. President Obama fed that fear when he said "Hamas has been and is an organization that has resorted to terror; that has refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. It is not a partner for a significant, realistic peace process."

"Israel obviously cannot be asked to negotiate with a government that is backed by the Palestinian version of al Qaeda," Netanyahu responded.

It's just another case of Israelis staring into that mirror. Hamas has, in fact, been moving steadily toward a form of secular nationalism and greater political moderation. Its government in Gaza is busy fending off threats from the true theocrats of the Muslim right, who despise Hamas. The rare volleys of Hamas rockets that now come into Israel are triggered by and responses to Israeli attacks.

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal has been saying for years that he and his party are absolutely willing to accept a two-state solution -- implicitly accepting the permanent existence of Israel -- as long as a majority of Palestinians approve it. Meshaal now speaks of "peace" rather than merely "truce" and views the infamous Hamas charter, calling for the destruction of Israel, as no longer relevant.

When it comes to the all-important question of recognition, it's Israel that refuses to recognize Hamas as a legitimate party or the Palestinians' right to be a democratic state and choose their own government. Meanwhile, the Israeli government has been doing exactly what it accuses Hamas of doing -- opening the door to increasingly reactionary, racist, and theocratic laws. "Public opinion polls point to increasing extremism, bordering on racism, in Jews' opinion of Arabs," as Haaretz has noted, so "it's no wonder there is no public pressure on the government to advance the peace process."

Israel is fast coming under the sway of far-right theocrats, and "ever more Israelis are infected by the symptoms of Messianic thinking: ‘We are right, and the whole world is wrong; hence we must no longer listen to anybody,'" as one Israeli Jewish columnist observed.

Then there's the upcoming vote in the U.N. General Assembly in September, when Palestine is expected to be granted full status as a nation. In his speech, Obama echoed the Israeli line that the Palestinian push for recognition there will harm chances for peace. In fact the vote would promote the peace process by pushing a nay-saying Israel closer to what it now fears most: finally being forced by irresistible world opinion to negotiate peace rather than become a pariah state.

There's one last point that Obama and American public discourse get absolutely backwards: the idea that being a friend of Israel's means endorsing its popular narrative, which offers no more truth than Alice's looking-glass. Real friends don't enable their friends to engage in self-destructive behavior. Real friends wouldn't let them get so drunk on a delusional story that they have no compunctions about driving what might otherwise be a peace process off a cliff.

The U.S. has the power to push the Israelis away from that cliff and head them in a new direction. There's real truth in the common Israeli joke that the U.S. is "the eight-ton elephant that can sit down anywhere it wishes."

Yes, Obama can put his tuches anywhere he wants. If he ever feels politically safe enough, he just might put it on the table. Then, Israel might have to leave the looking-glass world and agree to start genuine peace negotiations.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on May 26, 2011, 06:30:15 PM
Quote
Obama fed into that myth in his recent "Arab Spring" speech when he called, in effect, for an even swap: the Palestinians would get a state and the Israelis would get security, as if the massively stronger Israelis are the main ones suffering from insecurity.


  The Palistinians have nothing to offer to Isreal but good behavior, which Isreal can get by building better fenses and more barriers between Palistinian workers and work.

  What elese have the Palestinians got to put on the table at all?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 26, 2011, 08:17:59 PM
Israel's occupation of the WB is illegitimate. The Israelis living are not doing so with the consent of the legitimate  citizens of that territory do not belong. Fences and walls are also illegitimate unless they are built only on Israeli territory, and many of these are built on WB land.

Jews will eventually be outnumbered by Palestinian citizens of Israel, and at that time, Israel will cease to be democratic, or cease to be a Jewish state.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 26, 2011, 08:28:41 PM
Israel's occupation of the WB is illegitimate.

Actually, it's not.....War 101.....that myth now debunked......next



Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on May 26, 2011, 08:50:06 PM

Jews will eventually be outnumbered by Palestinian citizens of Israel, and at that time, Israel will cease to be democratic, or cease to be a Jewish state.

Which of these would be good news?

Quote
Israel's occupation of the WB is illegitimate. The Israelis living are not doing so with the consent of the legitimate  citizens of that territory do not belong. Fences and walls are also illegitimate unless they are built only on Israeli territory, and many of these are built on WB land.

People generally consider legitamate , whatever they need to for staying alive.

If Palestinians outreproduce their meas of support they will be miserably poor no matter what elese they do, this is a singleness of purpose that garruntees all victorys will be Pyrric.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 26, 2011, 10:19:33 PM
Israel is among the most hated countries on the planet due to their persecution and apartheid treatment of the Palestinians. The more they are hated, the more likely a boycott of the sort that brought South Africa down will happen. Everyone knows that they will not be exterminated or pushed into the sea: they will end up in the US, Canada or Australia for the most part.

Not being hated and boycotted would be a really good reason for them to get their butts seriously to the negotiation table. There are a lot of Jews who are sick of Netanyahu.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on May 26, 2011, 11:03:22 PM
  Jews caught a lot of hatred before there was any excuse for it.

  I am sorry for them all , but there isn't hope for Palestine.

This is the one country on the planet that thinks of overpopulation as a good thing, if they are handed everything they are asking for and a half , Palestine will become a nation , and it will become a nation that will make Hati look prosperous.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 27, 2011, 02:20:33 AM
And that's the Plane truth      8)      (for Xo's edification, pun intended)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 09:55:42 AM
If Jews were hated elsewhere for some reason or no reason, the reason they were hated in Palestine is and has always been their theft of land on the assumption that God gave it to them.

Israel is not the Payback for the Holocaust.

That would involve giving the Jews a chunk of Germany and Austria.

Israel subsidizes huge families of Ultra-Orthodox, who contribute NOTHING to the economy, unless you count Torah studies. Israel says that anyone who claims to be a Jew is an automatic citizen the moment they get off the plane. That is overpopulation as well. The Israelis are just not as good at it.

Title: Re: Debunking myths with truths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 28, 2011, 07:34:12 PM
Five Simple Truths about the Mideast Conflict

Is there any subject more controversial than the question of the legitimacy of the modern State of Israel?
Is it the eternal home of the Jewish people, promised to them by God Himself?
Or is it the illegitimate home of violent Jewish occupiers, an apartheid state guilty of ethnic cleansing?
Or is it something in between?

In the midst of the often emotional arguments on both sides, it is helpful to review five simple truths about the Mideast conflict.

1. There is no such thing as a historic "Palestinian people" living in the Middle East. To be sure, there have been Arabs living in the land of Palestine for centuries. (The land of Israel was derisively renamed "Palestine" by the Romans in the second century A.D.). And it is true that some of these families have lived in Palestine without interruption for many generations. But at no time before 1967 did these Arabs identify themselves as "Palestinians," nor did they seek to achieve any kind of statehood there.

As expressed by former terrorist Walid Shoebat, "Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?"

Before 1967, there was no such thing as Arab, Palestinian nationalism and no attempt to develop the territory as a homeland for the Arabs who lived there, and in 1936, when the Palestine Orchestra was formed, it was a Jewish orchestra. In fact, the original name of the Jerusalem Post, the flagship Jewish newspaper, was the Palestine Post.

There is no question that there are several million people who identify themselves as Palestinians today, and many of these people have suffered great hardship in recent years. Nonetheless, the concept of a Palestinian people is a modern invention, and it is part of the anti-Israel propaganda machine without any basis in fact. The recent comments of Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas, claiming a 9,000 year Palestinian pedigree, are purely fictional: "Oh, Netanyahu, you are incidental in history; we are the people of history. We are the owners of history."


2. There were anti-Jewish intifadas in Palestine two decades before the founding of the State of Israel in 1948. We are often told that Jews and Arabs coexisted peacefully in Palestine prior to the formation of the Jewish state in 1948, or at least, prior to the rise of strong Jewish nationalism. In reality, as Jews began to return to their one and only ancestral homeland in the late 19th century, hostilities began to rise among their Arab neighbors, despite the fact that there was more than enough room for both.

By the 1920's, radical Muslim leaders like Haj Amin Al-Husseini, later a confidant of Adolph Hitler, were organizing intifadas against the Jewish population, with many Jewish lives lost. And what helped fuel Al-Husseini's Jew-hatred was the anti-Jewish sentiment found in the Koran and early Muslim traditions. Post-1948 Jew-hatred simply built on centuries of Islamic anti-Semitism.

3. Jewish refugees fleeing from Muslim and Arab countries were absorbed by Israel after 1948; Arab refugees fleeing from Israel after 1948 were not absorbed by Muslim and Arab countries. Despite the fact that the Muslim nations surrounding Israel are 650 times the size of this tiny state, they made no effort to absorb the approximately 600,000 Arab refugees who fled Israel in 1948 when war was declared on Israel by five neighboring Arab nations.

To this day, these refugees are not welcomed by other Arab states.

As expressed more than 20 years ago by Ralph Galloway, former head of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees, "The Arab States do want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel." Yet Israel absorbed roughly 800,000 Jewish refugees that had to flee from Muslim nations after 1948.  


4. Only one side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is truly committed to peaceful co-existence. It is often stated that if the Palestinians put down their weapons, there would be no more war but if the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.

This is not to say that all Palestinians are warmongers and all Israelis are doves. But the vast majority of Israelis are not driven by a radical ideology that calls for the extermination of their Arab neighbors, nor are they teaching their children songs about the virtues of religious martyrdom.

Israel does not relish spending a major portion of its budget on defense, nor does it relish sending its sons and daughters into military service. It simply will not surrender Jerusalem, its historic and religious capital, and it will not commit regional suicide by retreating to indefensible borders. In return it simply asks the Palestinians to say, "We embrace your right to exist."  


5. The current uprisings throughout the Muslim and Arab world today remind us that Israel cannot fairly be blamed for all the tension and conflicts in the region.

The nation of Israel is obviously not faultless in the current conflict, but it is ludicrous to think that without the presence of this supposed evil nation in the Middle East, all would be well. There have been constant disputes between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, and in 1980, Abd Alhalim Khaddam, then Syria?s Foreign Minister, admitted, "If we look at a map of the Arab Homeland, we can hardly find two countries without conflict. . . . We can hardly find two countries which are not either in a state of war or on the road to war."


Certainly, there are many obstacles that stand in the way of a true peace between the Israelis and Palestinians, and the road ahead is fraught with uncertainty, but it would be a good starting point if we replaced myths and emotional arguments with facts. (http://townhall.com/columnists/michaelbrown/2011/05/28/five_simple_truths_about_the_mideast_conflict)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 28, 2011, 07:51:41 PM
If Jews were hated elsewhere for some reason or no reason, the reason they were hated in Palestine is and has always been their theft of land

And almost all of the haters sit on land "stolen" from someone else.
I say "F" 'em....
Israel should not give an inch to an enemy that wants to destroy them
That is called insanity!
I don't give a rats ass who the haters hate...bunch of hypocrites
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 28, 2011, 09:02:10 PM
Whether you give a rat's ass or not and about what will not change one damn thing.

Other than you have a chance to not look like an idiot.

The Romans renamed Judea "Palestine" after the Palestinian people, known in Biblical times as Philistines. Archaeologists believe that the Philistines were refugees from Mycenean Greece around 400 BCE. They were said to have introduced pigs into the area.

Closely related to Jews, Palestinians represent "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times."[17] Since the time of the Muslim conquests in the 7th century, Palestinians have been predominantly Muslim by religious affiliation and linguistically and culturally Arab.[13] Most Palestinians are Sunni Muslims, but there is a significant Palestinian Christian minority of various Christian denominations, as well as Druze Palestinians and a small Samaritan community. Palestinian Jews made up part of the population of Palestine prior to the creation of the State of Israel, but very few identify as "Palestinian" today. The vernacular of Palestinians, irrespective of religion, is the Palestinian dialect of Arabic. For those who are Arab citizens of Israel, many are bilingual and fluent in Modern Hebrew. Those in the diaspora speak the languages of their host countries in addition to Arabic or to its exclusion.
=====================

Not all Jews are descendants of the Hebrews, either. Many Russian and Polish Jews are descendants of the Khazars, a Turkic people who converted to Judaism around 800 AD.

There are people who believe themselves to be Palestinians, no matter what some right wing Orthodox clowns claim, just as the descendants of the Khazars consider themselves to be Jews.

What you are quoting here is a right wing bunch of crap that most Jews themselves do not believe. Spew it elsewhere, no one sane believes this.

There were Palestinians Arabs in Israel before the Zionists came, and they were driven out by the Israeli Army. Others left at the instructions of the various Arab countries, who said there would be a 'free fire" zone established,and they left to avoid be caught in a battle. Then they were prevented from returning home.
 
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 02:34:33 PM
What you are quoting here is a right wing bunch of crap that most Jews themselves do not believe. Spew it elsewhere, no one sane believes this.

thank you for the unsubstantiated opinion (facts to hard core liberals is like Kryptonite to Superman.  They just wilt into slurs and demagoguery)

But by all means, refute those 5 truths posed...WITH FACTS, vs the ongoing unsubstantiated claims you keep persevering on.  I dare you to refute #3, in fact:

Jewish refugees fleeing from Muslim and Arab countries were absorbed by Israel after 1948; Arab refugees fleeing from Israel after 1948 were not absorbed by Muslim and Arab countries...To this day, these refugees are not welcomed by other Arab states


There were Palestinians Arabs in Israel before the Zionists came, and they were driven out by the Israeli Army. Others left at the instructions of the various Arab countries, who said there would be a 'free fire" zone established,and they left to avoid be caught in a battle. Then they were prevented from returning home.

A) Driven out only AFTER Israel was attacked
B) Arab countries REFUSED to absorb them, unlike Israel who being exponentially smaller, absorbed all their Jewish refugees
C) The damage was done...BY THE ARABS..in facilitating the current status-quo.  Ball in their court, if they actually want peace
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 02:44:57 PM
Jordan has accepted Palestinians as citizens. About half the population of Jordan are Palestinians.

Israel has the most to lose by not making a deal, although a deal would clearly benefit everyone.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 03:09:06 PM
Finally, you got something right...Israel has the most to lose...their very existance.  And since the other state of this supposed "2 state arrangement", has on its governing charter the death of the other state, Israel needs to do squat, as it relates to negotiations, until that situation changes.  Just hunker down, and defend, with the best lands positions you have.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 29, 2011, 03:23:35 PM
Finally, you got something right...Israel has the most to lose...their very existance.  And since the other state of this supposed "2 state arrangement", has on its governing charter the death of the other state, Israel needs to do squat, as it relates to negotiations, until that situation changes.  Just hunker down, and defend, with the best lands positions you have.

Meanwhile, world opinion and US opinion is slowly turning against Israel, so the longer they wait the weaker their hand is.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 03:44:11 PM
I don't agree, given the current facts and reality of the situation.  But I guess we're not going to agree on this
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 03:51:48 PM
It is likely that many European countries will vote to allow the formation of a Palestinian state; France, probably Germany, maybe even the UK. The people of Europe are supportive of the Palestinians cause, and sympathy is growing. It seems that the Palestinians are reading up on their  Gandhi and other passive resistance movements, and with digital cameras and phones in everyone's hands, the brutality of previous Israeli aggression against marchers will either be shown to all, or suppressed to avoid the IDF from looking like Stormtroopers. Note that Assad has not been able to keep footage of his troops' brutality from appearing in the media.

There is an emerging peaceful protest movement, and it is likely to be a lot more successful than the Intifadas.




Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on May 29, 2011, 03:59:15 PM
The intifadas are over?

If the sympathy of the rest of the planet count for much then the intifadas were the cream in the Isreli coffee.

The result of the intifadas have been high unemployment , walls everywhere, and a loss of sympathy where there ought to be plenty.

You can excuse a lot of odd behavior if you are being shot at.

Would it be smart of the Isreleis to lower the walls a little ? Just enough to allow a few myrters a month thru, then the Palestinians would do a good job of becomeing repellant even if only a few of them were actually supportive of the intifada.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 04:08:16 PM
The intifada was not successful. The Hamas rockets are also not a good idea.

Civil disobedience and passive resistance are likely to be much more effective, because it will be shown on Al Jazeera for sure. The Israelis cannot muzzle Al Jazeera,and if it is on AJ, it will be on the rest as well. Youtubes, camera phones and instant transmission will be quite effective for the Palestinians, I think.

I recall in earlier times one Israeli woman would get a bruise from a rock thrown by some Palestinian, and they would post her interview, interview her husband, kids and parents and tell us all her name. There would be crying.

And four Palestinian kids that were gassed and shot dead, would be announced in a single sentence. No name, no anything.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on May 29, 2011, 04:23:56 PM


I recall in earlier times one Israeli woman would get a bruise from a rock thrown by some Palestinian, and they would post her interview, interview her husband, kids and parents and tell us all her name. There would be crying.


This is true and is the exact reason that the Intifadas never had any hope of being fruitfull.

I think Gandhi was smart, he went to England and appealed to the very textile workers that the government was supposed to be economically protecting by forbidding textile making in India.

  This cut the legs out from under the English Imperial supporters, but he could have chosen to frighten the English out of India , the strategy that had failed in previous generations.


Mahatma K. Gandhi Visits Textile Workers Strike... (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3eb5u)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Gandhi_at_Darwen_with_women.jpg/450px-Gandhi_at_Darwen_with_women.jpg)

http://www.slideshare.net/GandhiFoundation/gandhi-a-life-in-pictures-presentation (http://www.slideshare.net/GandhiFoundation/gandhi-a-life-in-pictures-presentation)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 04:31:12 PM
Previously, it was possible to censor the mistreatment of Palestinians. Now it is bound to be a lot more difficult. The Israeli Press is not like the press in China or Oman or Saudi Arabia: some Israelis like to think of themselves as humane and tolerant. It is a good place for Civil disobedience and passive resistance.

I think the intifadas got a lot of attention in other Arab countries, but not in the West. The Palestinians should create a MLK figure and something like the SCLC. A Nobel Prize would be likely, and eventually Netanyahu would be thrown out by the Israeli voters.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 29, 2011, 04:44:24 PM
as Goldberg said, time is on the Palestinian side.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 05:09:30 PM
It is likely that many European countries will vote to allow the formation of a Palestinian state

And here's again the Kicker....SO WOULD ISRAEL.  However, no one seems to want to deal with the 500lb gorilla in the room


as Goldberg said, time is on the Palestinian side.

While defense and armament is on the Israeli's side.  Not to mention, the truth

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 29, 2011, 05:51:57 PM
Quote
While defense and armament is on the Israeli's side.  Not to mention, the truth

That only helps in time of war. A state created by the UN can be dissolved by the UN.

Anyone know where Czechoslovakia is now?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 06:08:07 PM
The UN did not dissolve Czechoslovakia, nor did the UN form it. The Czechs and the Slovaks debated for a while about the terms of the union and eventually decided to become two friendly and separate nations.

Czechoslovakia was formed in 1919 under the Treaty of Versailles.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 07:50:06 PM
Quote
While defense and armament is on the Israeli's side.  Not to mention, the truth

That only helps in time of war.

They ARE in a state of war


A state created by the UN can be dissolved by the UN.

Like that's going to happen with Israel.  Good thing they're in a state of war, and prepared with defense and armorment.  And FYI, Israel was created FAR before the UN was


Anyone know where Czechoslovakia is now?

Anyone remember the Holocaust?  Have we not learned from THAT tragic mistake??
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 29, 2011, 08:12:57 PM
Quote
And FYI, Israel was created FAR before the UN was

Source?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 08:17:29 PM
Like that's going to happen with Israel.  Good thing they're in a state of war, and prepared with defense and armorment.  And FYI, Israel was created FAR before the UN was

Israel was created in 1947
The UN was created in 1945.

They are not in a state of war. That explains why fatalities in both Israel and Palestine are more due to traffic than aggression.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 29, 2011, 08:27:58 PM
Like that's going to happen with Israel.  Good thing they're in a state of war, and prepared with defense and armament.  And FYI, Israel was created FAR before the UN was

They are not in a state of war.

Yea, because rockets, IED's, mass bombings, are all a part of normal block parties.  I mean, it happens all the time around here     ::)      News flash Xo, WE'RE in a state of war with militant Islam, and they merely used box cutters on us. 


That explains why fatalities in both Israel and Palestine are more due to traffic than aggression.

We have far more traffic fatalities as well.  Doesn't change our use of drones, misslies, or Navy Seals, on that enemy we're at war with


Quote
And FYI, Israel was created FAR before the UN was

Source?

1) Bible

2) History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Jewish_History_in_Israel_and_the_Palestinian_Territories)

--------

UN Formation -- 1945  (which by the way, makes them only 2 years older than the supposed "officially regulated" state of Israel in 1947.  Hardly the authority in revoking the existence of Israel

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 29, 2011, 08:43:21 PM


1) Bible

2) History

So you are saying that previous title to the land way back then entitles them to ownership now?

And that differs from the Palestinian Arabs claims how?


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 29, 2011, 09:29:38 PM
The Palestinians who presently occupy Israel and the West Bank, and many of those in Gaza are the descendants of Philistines, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Hebrews of all 12 tribes as well as early Christians, and European Crusaders as well as Turks. They have lived there since forever, converting to whatever religion was in fashion.

There were only a few Jews left after the Romans defeated the Bar Kochkba rebellion in 135 CE. The Zionist movement did not start until 1897, and was slow in populating the area. Most settlement dates from the 1930's.

The point is that all these people are related, and none has a better claim that any other. The idea that God grants real estate is quaint and inaccurate, as one could just as easily say that the Hebrews/Judeans p!ssed off God and He sent the Romans to remove them. The Bible is filled with such divine condemnations.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 02:36:50 AM
1) Bible

2) History

So you are saying that previous title to the land way back then entitles them to ownership now?

No...I'm referencing that Israel existed LONG before the UN


And that differs from the Palestinian Arabs claims how?

In that I never made the claim of "ownership"
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 07:32:05 AM
Then what is your claim?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 11:10:56 AM
That Israel was created FAR before the UN was
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 11:17:06 AM
And then it was vanished, as were Uqbar, the Iroquois Confederacy, Parthia, Burgandy, the Cisalpine Republic and hundreds of other disappeared states. Israel as a modern nation dates no further back than 1947. The rest is folklore irrelevant to the present political situation. The Hebrews came into Canaan, and were expelled. The fact that a group claiming to be the same people, who were not quite and not even mostly the same people returned starting in 1898 has no legal importance. They can sing songs about it as Texans sing about the Republic of Texas.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 11:34:52 AM
....and then they returned.  Yet none of your other "examples" did.  Nice try though.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 12:59:14 PM
There are no Texans? There are no Iroquois? There are no Burgundians, Parthians or Hittites?

I am pretty sure that a DNA test of people in the area would show that all these people still exist genetically. They simply do not exist as a political entity.

The Israel of 1947 is not the same country as the Israel of 2011, but there is a continuity.

There is only a very limited or no continuity of the Israel that last existed when the Babylonians conquered them and that name was last used as the name of a country and the Israel of 2011.

There is undoubtedly rather a lot of Hebrew DNA in today's Iranians, perhaps more than one would find in the people of Tel Aviv.

I do not buy this Biblical crap. Fail.
There were over a thousand years in which Hebrew was used only as a liturgical language in synagogues. The resurrection of the language is, of course a cultural phenomenon, not a territorial one. 
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 01:11:59 PM
There is an ISRAEL, and they are not going anywhere, end of story.  One would have thought the Holocaust would have educated some of our older posters here.  Apparently, not
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 01:32:37 PM
It is not the end of the story. The state of Israel is not an eternal entity. No country is, though some (Iceland, Tonga, Switzerland) are geographically more likely to have one nation rule than others.

I do not dispute Israel's right to exist. But I do not deny Palestine the same right to exist, either. Neither is more important than the other in my book. And anyone that understand history and geography must admit that Israel and Palestine are not ideally placed for eternal rule by a single ethnicity. Certainly not like Iceland or Tonga.

What the Holocaust has to do with this I do not know. Hitler proved that even with a well organized killing industry, extermination of as many Jews as exist is impossible, at least while fighting a war on three fronts.

If Israel were defeated militarily, we know that millions of Jews would not drown. At worst, they would be in the US, the UK, Canada, Australia and other places. Jews have money. Jews can and would travel. Hitler was a far more effective enemy than the rather puny Arab states could ever be. And note that Hitler failed.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 01:42:55 PM
It is not the end of the story. The state of Israel is not an eternal entity.

I'm sure Hitler thought the same way


I do not dispute Israel's right to exist. But I do not deny Palestine the same right to exist, either.  

And neither is Israel.  YOUR problem is that the Palestinians themselves, the ones the Israelis are expected to "negotiate with", expected to give up significant defensive positions that would bring the Palestinians within a rock's throw of Israel's version of DC, are the ones who dispute the right of Israel to exist.  Its even in their governing charter

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 01:58:34 PM
How is this MY problem? It is a world problem.

There are no truly secure borders possible in Palisrael where Palestinians and Israelis do not live in close proximity to one another. Look at any map. The only truly open spaces in the area are in the Negev Desert.

Of course, Israel would be much more secure with the capital in Tel Aviv. Look at any map.
The same is true of Palestine. Ramala would be a better capital than Jerusalem for them as well.

But deciding this is up to them. If someone chooses to give the kid arsenic playthings, they will need to keep them out of his mouth.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 02:23:52 PM
How is this MY problem?

Because you think this is all on Israeli's feet, they THEY're the ones that have to do something to bring about peace.  They could completely lay down their arms.....that wouldn't bring peace, it'd bring the destruction of Israel

You keep referencing how Israel & Palestinians both have a right to exist.  Israel agrees.  Palestinians apparently do not, manifested by their election of Hamas as a governing body.  And they're enabled and embolden to continue to think that way, so long as Israel is the supposed boogeyman

That's why its your problem....FACTS don't fit your anti-Israeli rhetoric.  All it'll bring is more war and more death.  And it'll be at your 11:1 ratio
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 02:39:52 PM
It is not the end of the story. The state of Israel is not an eternal entity.

I'm sure Hitler thought the same way


According to this, Hitler was in favor of a jewish homeland in Palestine.

Quote
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained ?we must, above all, make it an international political issue.?[1]Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome ?final solution of the Jewish question.?[2]In his ?Diaries?, page 19, Herzl stated ?Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.?


    51 Documents:

    Zionist Collaboration
    with the Nazis

Zionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo.[3] [4] [5] [6] Hitler himself personally supported Zionism.[7] [8] During the 1930?s, in cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some 40 camps throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. As late as 1942 Zionists operated at least one of these officially authorized ?Kibbutz? training camps[9] over which flew the blue and white banner which would one day be adopted as the national flag of ?Israel?.[10]

The Transfer Agreement (which promoted the emigration of German Jews to Palestine) implemented in 1933 and abandoned at the beginning of WWII is an important example of the cooperation between Hitler?s Germany and international Zionism. [11] Through this agreement, Hitler?s Third Reich did more than any other government during the 1930?s to support Jewish development in Palestine and further the Zionist goals.

Hitler and the Zionists had a common goal:  to create a world Jewish Ghetto as a solution to the Jewish Question.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/nazisupport.cfm (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/nazisupport.cfm)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 03:09:57 PM
It is not the end of the story. The state of Israel is not an eternal entity.

I'm sure Hitler thought the same way

According to this, Hitler was in favor of a jewish homeland in Palestine.

Hmmm, makes him quote the hypocrite then with his Jewish Extermination Camps, now don't it

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 03:18:01 PM
Quote
Hmmm, makes him quote the hypocrite then with his Jewish Extermination Camps, now don't it

Not really. If the ultimate goal was removing Jews from Germany, and the palestinian Resttlement wasn't happening fast enough, then plan B (the final solution) might be consistent with the ultimate goal.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 03:22:06 PM
Yea, because extermination is such a logical choice if people don't voluntarily, or even forcibly move to a place they'd be more appropriate in

But I did like the "might be" consistent part    ;)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 03:26:09 PM
Yea, because extermination is such a logical choice if people don't voluntarily, or even forcibly move to a place they'd be more appropriate in

But I did like the "might be" consistent part    ;)

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or just showing your ignorance concerning the complex dynamics leading up to the final solution. Perhaps you would like to clarify.


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 03:54:39 PM
Final solution, as in the extermination of the Jewish race?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 04:17:41 PM
No the elimination of Jews from German Territory. They had no control over Jews living in countries not under their control, like Canada, the UK or the US.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 04:20:05 PM
Because extermination is such a logical alternative to relocating
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 04:30:42 PM
Because extermination is such a logical alternative to relocating

You are aware that 100's of thousand of German Jews seeking to immigrate to the Palestinian Mandate as well as countries like the US and Canada were turned down, aren't you?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 04:33:08 PM
I am now......which changes nothing, I'm afraid
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 04:57:53 PM
You are aware that 100's of thousand of German Jews seeking to immigrate to the Palestinian Mandate as well as countries like the US and Canada were turned down, aren't you?

===================================================
The British did not want to get stuck with the problems that they thought this would have created.

This happened in the 1930's during a worldwide Depression. A lot of people at that time actually thought that there was a "Jewish Problem". The WWI Peace Treaty tried to give every nationality a homeland, but some people, like the Jews and the Gypsies, were left out. Jews were generally disliked and considered to be a nuisance in many countries.

Hitler would have preferred a Judenfrei world to a Judenfrei Germany, but in the beginning, he seemed to favor the latter: it is less bloodthirsty. He was not what anyone could call an honorable man. I think most people agree on this now.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 05:16:27 PM
I am now......which changes nothing, I'm afraid

Absent a time machine, it usually doesn't.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 05:42:22 PM
Good thing now we're in a position not to allow what happened back in time, to repeat itself
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 05:44:00 PM
Good thing now we're in a position not to allow what happened back in time, to repeat itself

Is that what it is?

We are preventing another Holocaust?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 05:46:14 PM
No...we are seeing to it that another one isn't started
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 06:29:30 PM
we?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 06:31:52 PM
Yea, those of us who learned from history, not to allow such an event to ever occur again
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 06:33:54 PM
Yea, those of us who learned from history, not to allow such an event to ever occur again

What is your role in this?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 06:36:35 PM
Does the name Paul Revere, ring any bells?     8)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 07:07:53 PM
Does the name Paul Revere, ring any bells?     8)

Does that mean you think Zionism is an integral part of the US psyche?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 30, 2011, 07:21:56 PM
Revere was a silversmith, but he was of French, not Jewish ancestry.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 08:08:04 PM
Does the name Paul Revere, ring any bells?     8)

Does that mean you think Zionism is an integral part of the US psyche?

Not at all.  You merely asked what my function was.  I provided you an example, that happens to have a well recognized understanding, based on U.S. history
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 30, 2011, 08:16:26 PM
So upon a signal from the North Temple you will be crying the Palestinians are coming?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 30, 2011, 11:59:01 PM
Nope, just going to keep pointing out the truth, no matter how loud others try to shout me down, and try to make this about how evil Israel is supposed to be
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 31, 2011, 12:47:06 AM
Hopefully  you will be pointing out the truth that Zionism predated the Holocaust by half a century.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 31, 2011, 12:55:53 AM
Which is largely irrelevant to the truth regarding the current Middle East Standoff, between Israel and Palestinians
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 31, 2011, 12:58:14 AM
I still am not getting what Paul Revere has to do with Israel.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on May 31, 2011, 01:29:01 AM
Why am I not surprised
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on May 31, 2011, 06:09:41 AM
Hopefully  you will be pointing out the truth that Zionism predated the Holocaust by half a century.

Zionism does not predate Progroms and anti semitic riots.

A certain amount of suspicion against the general population and governments of Europe is justified.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 31, 2011, 01:09:20 PM
A certain amount of suspicion against the general population and governments of Europe is justified.
==========================================================================
There have been no pogroms, no persecution, no mistreatment of Jews in Europe in modern times. There is only the occasional incident of some skinhead scribbling a swastika every once in a while. Probably some of the swastikas are the work of drunken punks rather than neonazis.

Antisemitism is NOT the same thing as anti-Zionism. There are many Jews who disagree with the concept of Zionism, and many more who disagree with the particularly nasty slant that Netanyahu has stuck it with. AIPAC wants all Americans to believe that publicly chastising anything Israel does, or opposing anything that Israel wants from the US, usually for free, is also antisemitic.

The vast majority of Europeans have no problems with Jewish neighbors, or Jewish educators or politicians. France is led by a Jew of Hungarian origin. The deposed head of the IMF, Strauss-Kahn, currently under arrest for molesting a Black chambermaid, is Jewish. He seems to be the guy Hitler warned everyone about: a lecherous world banker and currency manipulator, abusing innocent women, and the general reaction to this in France was not to depose this guy, but to accuse the NYPD or someone of a mammoth conspiracy against a respected public figure.

It looks to me like Strauss-Kahn is simply a lech, not a typical evil Jewish banker lech, but the utter lack of antisemitic rhetoric against this guy suggests that anti-Semitism of any dangerous sort is really not a part of the modern European mindset.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on May 31, 2011, 09:45:47 PM
A certain amount of suspicion against the general population and governments of Europe is justified.
==========================================================================
There have been no pogroms, no persecution, no mistreatment of Jews in Europe in modern times.

  Is it as dead as White supremacy in the southern US?

Or southern Boston Mass for that matter.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on May 31, 2011, 10:59:33 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Program)

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on May 31, 2011, 11:18:08 PM
Is it as dead as White supremacy in the southern US?

Or southern Boston Mass for that matter.
==============================================
Probably deader. There was no war that wiped out White supremacists in the US.

WWII wiped out millions of Nazis, especially men.

Most opposition to Israel in Europe is based on what Israel has done, not on antisemitism.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on June 01, 2011, 12:37:18 AM
Is it as dead as White supremacy in the southern US?

Or southern Boston Mass for that matter.
==============================================
Probably deader. There was no war that wiped out White supremacists in the US.

WWII wiped out millions of Nazis, especially men.

Most opposition to Israel in Europe is based on what Israel has done, not on antisemitism.


  Southerners got wiped out worse than Germans, sheesch what would it take to satisfy?
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
The Confederate strength, known less accurately because of missing records, was from 750,000 to 1,250,000. Its estimated losses:

Battle deaths: 94,000
Disease, etc.: 164,000
Total 258,000

        The leading authority on casualties of the war, Thomas L. Livermore, admitting the handicap of poor records in some cases, studied 48 of the war's battles and concluded:
        Of every 1,000 Federals in battle, 112 were wounded.
        Of every 1,000 Confederates, 150 were hit.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm (http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm)

 Ten percent of all Northern males 20–45 years of age died, as did 30 percent of all Southern white males aged 18–40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War)
population CSA territory 1860            Total 9,103,332  Slaves 5,582,222 Slaveowners 316,632

In 1860 the areas that later formed the 11 Confederate States (and including the future West Virginia) had 132,760 (1.46%) free blacks. Males made up 49.2% of the total population and females 50.8% (whites: 48.60% male, 51.40% female; slaves: 50.15% male, 49.85% female; free blacks: 47.43% male, 52.57% female).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America)


Germany WWII
5,318,531 total casualtys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II)

German Population in 1939:  80,600,000+
http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html (http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on June 01, 2011, 12:40:07 AM

Most opposition to Israel in Europe is based on what Israel has done, not on antisemitism.

Why does matter to Isrelis?
How to tell the diffrence?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on June 01, 2011, 12:50:25 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Program)


Hmmm ... didn't know that one.

But it does help demonstrate that Zionism is contempory with severe Jewish persecution.

I don't think that WWII would have ended antisematism in Europe by itself , there were lots of people who didn't like Jews but didn't join the looseing side.

What do you suppose accounts for the world wide reduction of anti-sematism?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 01, 2011, 12:04:37 PM
There is less antisemitism because there have been major attitudinal changes in both Jews and Gentiles. The people who are alive today are not the same people and do not share the same attitudes. WWII, as I said, eliminated antisemitism as a viable political movement. Hating Jews was no longer taught in schools and churches, a higher percentage of country people moved to the cities and therefore come in greater contact with Jews. Of course, in Europe today, there are many fewer Jews around.

I recall in when I lived in Mexico, I used to wait for the bus at the Diana statue in Mexico City, a major bus transfer point. Every day, fancy cars would deposit well-dressed rich kids from Lomas de Chapultepec, San Angel and other fancy neighborhoods, and they would be picked up by  the buses of the Academia Hebrea and other Jewish schools. The Jewish school buses were all shiny and new and had the name of the schools lettered in Hebrew as well as Spanish, which, of course Mexicans do not read. The impression was "We are richer than you peons. We are Jews. We flaunt our superiority to all of you." Jews in Kansas City did not do this or leave this impression. I imagine that in Prague and Vienna and Berlin it was somewhat like in Mexico City. And of course, most Mexicans resented this bunch of rich foreigners flaunting their superiority. The Americans, the English, and other wealthy foreigners did not behave in this way, as the Mexican Revolution had taught them a lesson about how Mexicans react to undue gloating.

Of course, there was only a small amount of actual antisemitism, mostly limited to the Sinarquista movement and the occasional swastika scribbler. I has a couple of Jewish friends at my university who complained about these ostentatious "Safardistas", which is what they called the Orthodox, as the cause of a lot of bad feelings.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 01, 2011, 12:56:39 PM
I was, of course, referring to White supremacy in the US at the time of the Civil Rights Act, NOT at the time of the Civil War.

The Civil War was not fought about White supremacy, it was fought over slavery, which is not the same thing.

The Germans did not own the Jews.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: kimba1 on June 01, 2011, 02:07:22 PM
I think confederates were not anti-semitic at all. I remember one of the generals was jewish. today is another matter
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: kimba1 on June 01, 2011, 03:37:43 PM
http://www.jewishmag.com/112mag/confederates/confederates.htm (http://www.jewishmag.com/112mag/confederates/confederates.htm)

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 01, 2011, 04:37:39 PM
The Vice President of the Confederacy was Jewish. So were generals, officers ans soldiers on both sides. The Civil War was about slavery of Black people.  WWII was about several things, most notably the colonialization of Eastern Europe by Germany, of Albania and Africa by Italy and of China, Indonesia, Indochina, the Philippines and other Pacific areas by Japan. Eliminating the Jews did not require any war by Germany, as the Jews were largely helpless.

The current issue is the colonialization of the West Bank by Israel.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 04, 2011, 05:11:36 PM
Land that they rightly took over, in defense of their very existence.  In hind sight, had Jordan never intervened, in '67, the West Bank would still likely be Jordanian, and not this hypothetical Palestine
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 04, 2011, 05:24:45 PM
Land that they rightly took over, in defense of their very existence.  In hind sight, had Jordan never intervened, in '67, the West Bank would still likely be Jordanian, and not this hypothetical Palestine

AMEN to that SIRS!
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 04, 2011, 11:13:38 PM
Israel will either return most of the WB or it will eventually cease to exist as a Jewish state.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Actually, if Israel does return most of the WB, it has a far greater chance of ceasing to exist, as a Jewish State
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 05, 2011, 09:38:18 AM
Actually, that is not true at all.  Transferring the territory also transfers the population that is hostile to Israel.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 04:40:42 PM
Actually, it is, since it transfers that hostile population, all the more closer.
Actually, it's not the Palestinians land at all
Actually, it was Jordanian territory, before they tried to move Israel into the Mediterranean, from those positions in the WB
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 05, 2011, 05:14:35 PM
Probably not the best PR:

BEIRUT (AP) - State-run Syrian television says 20 people were killed and 325 wounded by Israeli gunfire along the border in the Golan Heights.

The Israeli forces opened fire Sunday to disperse pro-Palestinian demonstrators who tried to cross into the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights.

The Palestinians and Syrians were storming toward the border in a protest marking 1967 Mideast War, in which Israel occupied the Golan.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_SYRIA_ISRAEL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-06-05-13-25-46 (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_SYRIA_ISRAEL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-06-05-13-25-46)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 06:03:44 PM
Probably good that they had those lands to defend from, at least
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 06:26:14 PM
Arab newspaper: Why, Arab dictators are worse than the Zionists!
June 5, 2011
by Ed Morrissey

Via Carl in Jerusalem, this can almost literally be called a Road to Damascus moment ? or perhaps a Road to Hama moment, as troops loyal to Syrian strongman Bashar Assad are now surrounding the city where his father killed 10,000 people by dropping bombs on them.  The Dubai-based Gulf News, which has no problem running Holocaust-denial columns on occasion and accusing Zionists and Nazis of conspiring to create a Holocaust hoax, published a column this weekend in which a Syrian journalist is shocked, shocked to discover that Arab dictators are much more brutal than Israelis have ever been:
In fact, the Sudanese regime killed hundreds of thousands of its own people in Darfur. The so-called Janjaweed gangs in Sudan used to annihilate the people of Darfur like flies simply because the latter clamoured for their basic rights. An Arab satirist once commented that an Arab dictator would not accept the number of Palestinians killed in Gaza even as an appetiser! ?

The ongoing Arab intifadas have shown that some Arab rulers can beat the Israelis at their own game. An Arab website recently carried an opinion poll asking readers: ?Who will be a killioneer?? Sure enough, Muammar Gaddafi of Libya won the day. Not only did he kill a lot of his own people but also almost flattened many Libyan cities. It brought to mind western cities flattened by Hitler?s forces during the Second World War.

Take Ali Abdullah Saleh of Yemen. WikiLeaks has revealed that his ?chairmanship? gave the green light to American aircraft to bombard civilian areas to quell a local revolt. Add to this, of course, his brutal handling of the Yemeni revolution.

Other Arab despots are reported to have asked their security forces to aim their guns at protesters? heads. Have you ever seen an Israeli officer torturing a Palestinian civilian to death in the street for everybody to see? Definitely not. Many of us have seen that in some Arab towns lately.


While Arab journalists screech about the Gaza embargo as an affront to human rights, Faisal al-Qasim wonders where all of the concern goes when it comes to fellow Arabs in the Sudan, who have slaughtered hundreds of thousands in Darfur.  Where are the ?satirists,? Qasim wonders, when it comes to Arab atrocities?

Interestingly, al-Qasim mentions a lot of dictators by name or country, but even he seems reluctant to mention Assad or Syria by name at all.  In this avalanche of truth-telling and name-specifying, Assad is conspicuous in his absence from Qasim?s rant, especially given the ominous encirclement of Hama after the demonstrations and the dozens or perhaps hundreds of unarmed demonstrators murdered by Assad?s security forces.  Perhaps al-Qasim is reluctant to challenge Assad directly for personal reasons, like having family or friends still in Syria that could find themselves endangered by honest journalism.

Even so, al-Qasim tells Arabs that claims of Israeli brutality in the context of Arab treatment of their own people are just rubbish:
It is true that Israel is forcing an embargo on Gaza, but I do not think that the Israelis are preventing the Palestinians from getting their daily bread, whereas the security services in some Arab countries stopped cars carrying food from entering certain areas. Nor are the Israelis cutting off electricity, telephone and other communication services from houses, hospitals and schools.
It has been reported that the security services stopped nurses and doctors from treating the injured during certain Arab demonstrations as a punishment for rising against the ruling regime. The thugs contracted by the police to help quell protests went even further. They shot at ambulances.

Unlike in some Arab countries, Arabs living inside Israel can organise sit-ins very comfortably. And when the Israeli police intervenes, they never beat demonstrators to death. And if we compare how Israel treats Shaikh Raed Salah with the way some Arab dictators treat their opponents, we will be horribly surprised, as the Israelis are very much less brutal.


They may be horribly surprised, but the only because Arab media simply doesn?t tell the truth, or at least they haven?t until now.  Until recently, they didn?t cover Arab atrocities, instead focusing on propagating blood libels and Elders of Zion-like false propaganda against Israel and the Jews.  And although al-Qasim never admits it, it?s Arab journalists like him and outlets like Gulf News that have been providing cover for the Moammar Gaddafis and Bashar Assads for decades by, as al-Qasim puts it in an odd New Testament context, focusing on the ?dust particle? in Israeli eyes while ignoring the log in their own.

Al-Qasim concludes with an even more honest context:
Israel can always claim it is facing an enemy, whereas Arab dictators are facing their own people.

Israel is facing an enemy ? an enemy that wants to exterminate them ? and yet act with much more humanity than their enemies.  That?s not shocking to the rest of the world. 

Maybe Arabs should start asking themselves why they?re just discovering this, and why they?re at war with Israel rather than the dictators that oppress them. (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/06/05/arab-newspaper-why-arab-dictators-are-worse-than-the-zionists/)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 05, 2011, 06:28:52 PM
Assad paid Golan demonstrators $1,000 apiece,
but turnout scanty


DEBKAfile Exclusive Report June 5, 2011

(http://www.debka.com/dynmedia/photos/2011/06/05/big/Israel-Syria_border_5.6.11.jpg)
Only hundreds - not thousands this timeS

yrian President Bashar Assad's security machine is creaking judging by its failure to raise thousands of Palestinian and Syrian volunteers to brave the Israeli troops manning the Golan Sunday, June 5 - three weeks after his success in staging the first mass border incursion. debkafile's intelligence sources reveal that even the few hundred willing to turn out demanded a fee: $1,000 for every demonstrator who managed to cut a piece of razor wire from the Israeli border fence ? and exorbitant fee in Syrian terms - and $10,000 for the families of volunteers shot by Israeli troops before they reached their goal.

Syrian state TV reported 20 killed and 277 injured in clashes with Israeli border troops - figures which are not reliably confirmed.

Assad's home front is sinking fast, which was why he tried to stage a piece of nation-cementing drama on the Israeli border. He hoped the Golan dead would outnumber the many hundreds killed in his three-month crackdown on the protest movement against his regime and is therefore likely to keep on trying.

Sunday alone, scores died in Syrian tank-backed attacks on protesters in northwest Syria who are now using live fire against his troops. debkafile' sources report that Syrian security agents captured by protesters were hung in broad daylight from electricity poles on city high streets Sunday, June 5, causing troops and police to flee in panic.

"We are deeply troubled by events that took place earlier today in the Golan Heights resulting in injuries and the loss of life," the State Department said in a statement.

"We call for all sides to exercise restraint. Provocative actions like this should be avoided. Israel, like any sovereign nation, has a right to defend itself," the US statement added.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 05, 2011, 06:44:13 PM
If Assad goes, there are no guarantees that whoever replaces him will be any less oppressive to the Syrian people,or less hostile to Israel.

Assad has not done much to annoy the Israelis since he came to power. He has only protested the annexation of Golan.

It is probably true that he was against the Syrians strolling across the border in order to gain support with the people. It does not seem to have worked.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 05, 2011, 06:58:05 PM
Probably good that they had those lands to defend from, at least

I doubt the location of the border would really matter. The plan of the Syrians and Palestinians was to cross the border. They did. And Israel shot them for doing so.

Think we should do the same at the Rio Grande?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 07:13:03 PM
I believe they do matter....both in symbolic and actual lands of defense
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 05, 2011, 07:22:09 PM
I believe they do matter....both in symbolic and actual lands of defense

Of course you do, that is your position. But your belief doesn't change the fact that Palestinians and Syrians were intent on crossing the border as a form of protest and got shot at for their trouble.

Personally i think this will be a PR nightmare for Israel. I just don't think video of protestors being shot at, no matter by whom, plays well with the general public.

I mean isn't that why we are in Libya?


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 05, 2011, 07:33:27 PM
At the present time, it appears that Palestinian resistance is more and more likely to take the form of civil disobedience, and that is bad for Israel. It is not longer possible to keep videos away from the world audience. Cellphones and digital cameras are everywhere, and Al Jazeera will air anything that it wishes, as it is not censured as Arab news agencies have previously been.

Flashmobs at checkpoints in Israel are a distinct possibility. World opinion is bound to be increasingly against Zionists.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 08:19:59 PM
I believe they do matter....both in symbolic and actual lands of defense

Of course you do, that is your position. But your belief doesn't change the fact that Palestinians and Syrians were intent on crossing the border as a form of protest and got shot at for their trouble.

Nor does it change the fact that the land in question, rightly belongs to Israel.  There is no dispute, outside of those that want to make fodder of the Palestinians, while Arab nations like Syria, are trying to give Israel a PR black eye, by illegally crossing into another's territory. 

While our country won't fire on a throng of illegal immigrants massing over into CA from Mexico, neither are those immigrants firing rockets into SD, or blowing up buses in LaJolla, or bombing discos in LA.



Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 05, 2011, 09:32:28 PM
Israel choose to fire on the demonstrators.

No one forced them to do it.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 10:02:36 PM
Demonstrators chose to ILLEGALLY march into foreign country's territory, AT THE RISK OF BEING SHOT. 

No one put a gun to their head and forced them to do that.  Perhaps now, such demonstrators will think twice
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 05, 2011, 10:13:08 PM
Demonstrators chose to ILLEGALLY march into foreign country's territory, AT THE RISK OF BEING SHOT. 

No one put a gun to their head and forced them to do that.  Perhaps now, such demonstrators will think twice

I'm sure those watching this on TV will consider your argument before deciding whether Israel overreacted.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 10:35:55 PM
Those that no the truth vs what's the better PR ploy, perhaps
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 05, 2011, 10:46:18 PM
Wonder who the Arabic Neil Young is:

OHIO CSNY ( got audio back) - Kent State Massacre Montage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7-m919ynU#)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 11:10:32 PM
Yea, because that's sooooo the same.         ::)       As I said, those who know the truth vs those that want to simply try to use this to give Israel a PR black eye, will make up their own minds
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 05, 2011, 11:15:08 PM
Yea, because that's sooooo the same.         ::)       As I said, those who know the truth vs those that want to simply try to use this to give Israel a PR black eye, will make up their own minds

The truth is perceived. Perception is shaped. The optics are not in Israel's favor.
Opening fire on unarmed protestors is not the best way to make friends and influence people.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 05, 2011, 11:31:59 PM
The truth is the truth.  Israel didn't ask to be attacked.  Israel defended themselves in 67, and in doing so, took lands, in defense of their country.  That is NOT in dispute.  The West Bank was Jordanian, NOT Palestinian.  The Golan Heights were Syrian, NOT Palestinian 

Those are the facts, and more importantly, minus the anti-Israeli PR brigade, that is the truth.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 05, 2011, 11:41:58 PM
So you are saying the protestors crossing the border are attacking Israel?
And Israel was justified in gunning down 20 of them?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 06, 2011, 12:19:45 AM
I'd mow the enemy down if they crossed the border no matter
how the enemy dresses them up. World opinion?....LOL
Now that's funny....as if "world opinion" isn't already on
the side that desires the destruction of Israel. F-'em!
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 12:27:29 AM
I'd mow the enemy down if they crossed the border no matter
how the enemy dresses them up. World opinion?....LOL
Now that's funny....as if "world opinion" isn't already on
the side that desires the destruction of Israel. F-'em!


Of course.

and Bull Connor was only protecting the Southern Way of life.
(http://www.tvworthwatching.com/blog/2011/05/16/Freedom-bull-connor.jpg)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 02:12:16 AM
So you are saying the protestors crossing the border are attacking Israel?

NO, NOT EVEN REMOTELY WHAT I'M SAYING


And Israel was justified in gunning down 20 of them?

Justified?  YES.  Could they have used lesser means?  Also Yes.  But as I said, might give further demonstrations a greater perspective, when they're considering illegally cross into another country's territory
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 06, 2011, 08:06:21 AM
and Bull Connor was only protecting the Southern Way of life.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MeOj6_R6CJI/TZN-LdYuPzI/AAAAAAAAAK8/NkGvMQZDFyk/s1600/apple_orange_conflict.jpg)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 10:50:38 AM
It's amazing to watch these frequent knee jerk efforts to equate Israel defending itself with some of our not so great acts of racism     :o
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 06, 2011, 11:01:50 AM
Israel is a nation BUILT on racism. A Palestinian whose family lived there for a thousand years is expelled by the Israeli Army, and denied reentry. Palestinian olive groves are cut down, their homes are bulldozed and they are prevented from rebuilding. There are highways that only Israelis are permitted to travel on.

 Anyone from Russia claiming one Jewish grandparent, whether they ever entered a synagogue or not, is invited to enter Israel as a citizen and given special treatment. Ultra Orthodox Jews from Queens are allowed to enter Israel, settle in places where they are hated, such as Hebron, and their income for studying the Torah is subsidized by the Israeli government, as their wives have huge numbers of children.

Zionism is racism. It is really quite simple. What Israel does would be illegal and unconstitiutional in any state in the US.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 11:04:11 AM
As I said, its rather amazing to watch these frequent knee jerk efforts to equate Israel defending itself with some of our not so great acts of racism
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 06, 2011, 11:09:02 AM
Israel does pretty much what Bull Connor did, except with live ammunition.

Wait and see: there will be a major civil disobedience campaign by Palestinians, and it will confound the Israelis far more than the intifadas.

Zionism is racism, Zionism is a form of apartheid as well.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 11:58:25 AM
Israel does pretty much what Bull Connor did, except with live ammunition.

LOL.....riiiiiiiight.  Because Bull Conner was having thousands of rockets lobbed in from Georgia, while the state of Tennessee had adopted a state resolution for the destruction of Alabama.  Not to mention Georgia, and the rest of the Southeast claimed that the eastern half of Alabama belongs to the Jaffaians.  Yea, pretty much       ::)

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 12:10:53 PM
So when the protestors crossed the border at the Golan Heights how many rockets did they fire?

Any guns shots fired from the protesting crowd?

Israel over-reacted. Much like China did.

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/3/20/1237537850354/Tiananmen-Square-protesto-001.jpg)


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 06, 2011, 12:21:44 PM
The question is whether the threat posed by a few demonstrators justified shooting to kill them. Was Israel prepared to do this in a more humane manner? Apparently not.

This was not an armed invasion, it was a publicity stunt, and Israel ended up with egg on its face, again. Bashir did not fare well, either. Those crossing the border were fools to do it.

No one won this round.


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 12:38:50 PM
So when the protestors crossed the border at the Golan Heights how many rockets did they fire?

So, even though you asked, and I CLEARLY stated that's not what I was saying, you're going to keep claiming I said it anyways

Boy, you are a piece of work



Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 12:57:25 PM
So when the protestors crossed the border at the Golan Heights how many rockets did they fire?

So, even though you asked, and I CLEARLY stated that's not what I was saying, you're going to keep claiming I said it anyways

Boy, you are a piece of work

Quote
LOL.....riiiiiiiight.  Because Bull Conner was having thousands of rockets lobbed in from Georgia, while the state of Tennessee had adopted a state resolution for the destruction of Alabama.  Not to mention Georgia, and the rest of the Southeast claimed that the eastern half of Alabama belongs to the Jaffaians.  Yea, pretty much   
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 06, 2011, 01:17:48 PM
There is ample egg on sirs face.

The Palestinians strolling in from Syria were not armed with rockets.

BT wins this round.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 02:00:10 PM
So when the protestors crossed the border at the Golan Heights how many rockets did they fire?

So, even though you asked, and I CLEARLY stated that's not what I was saying, you're going to keep claiming I said it anyways

Boy, you are a piece of work

Quote
LOL.....riiiiiiiight.  Because Bull Conner was having thousands of rockets lobbed in from Georgia, while the state of Tennessee had adopted a state resolution for the destruction of Alabama.  Not to mention Georgia, and the rest of the Southeast claimed that the eastern half of Alabama belongs to the Jaffaians.  Yea, pretty much    

and.......................?  It's you and Xo that keep trying to compare Israel to racists, as if what Israel is doing is what Bull Conner was doing.  Can we assume that soon we should start seeing the Jews are Nazis references??
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 02:20:38 PM
The Palestinians strolling in from Syria were not armed with rockets.

Never claimed they were.  Merely that they were attempting to ILLEGALLY cross into another country's territory.  They knew the risk, and chose to put themselves at risk.  It's called personal responsibility

Not to mention they have the truth on their side (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/debunking-myths-about-israel/msg125776/#msg125776), that neither you nor Bt have yet to refute
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 02:33:37 PM
So when the protestors crossed the border at the Golan Heights how many rockets did they fire?

So, even though you asked, and I CLEARLY stated that's not what I was saying, you're going to keep claiming I said it anyways

Boy, you are a piece of work

Quote
LOL.....riiiiiiiight.  Because Bull Conner was having thousands of rockets lobbed in from Georgia, while the state of Tennessee had adopted a state resolution for the destruction of Alabama.  Not to mention Georgia, and the rest of the Southeast claimed that the eastern half of Alabama belongs to the Jaffaians.  Yea, pretty much    

and.......................?  It's you and Xo that keep trying to compare Israel to racists, as if what Israel is doing is what Bull Conner was doing.  Can we assume that soon we should start seeing the Jews are Nazis references??

Actually what i was showing were examples of over-reaction that turned the tide of public opinion. It had nothing to do with race, (how does Tienanmen Square concern race? or Kent State? ) that was your and CU's inference. I could have just as easily shown footage from the 68 DNC riots.


The simple truth is this. Israel opened fire on unarmed protestors and killed 20 of them. That does nothing to strengthen their hand at any court of public opinion.


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 03:10:09 PM
What you did was compare apples to oranges, using racism, using communism (with China), as comparable as what Israel was doing.  The only thing left really is a reference to Nazis, because of course, they overeacted when they were exterminating Israelis & Jews.  Then the circle would be complete, right?

We've already referenced that what Israel did was perhaps a use of more force than what they could have, despite it being justified.  However, the circumstances Israel finds itself in, is hardly what Conner was in, and the truth remains that Israel fired on folks illegally crossing into their territory.  The protesters weren't tricked into crossing, nor was this some sudden jumping up of hidden machine gun turrets.

Again, the truth is on Israel's side, no matter the efforts to try and push them into some conciliatory corner, or your efforts to claim something I never said 
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 03:56:19 PM
The truth is i gave well known examples of over-reacting that changed the direction of public opinion.

The truth is, as you have already conceded, is that Israel over-reacted to the protests at the Golan Heights border.

You know it, I know it, and the whole world watching knows it.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 06, 2011, 04:00:48 PM
Israel murdered 20 people who posed no real threat to their country.

sirs loses, and sirs will not admit it.

This is par for the course.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 04:10:49 PM
The truth is i gave well known examples of over-reacting that changed the direction of public opinion.  

And Israel's circumstances are anything but, compared to Conner or China. 

No, I do NOT believe they "over-reacted", merely that they could have used lesser means.  However the means they did use, was justifyable force, GIVEN THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES that is Israel, thus they did NOT over-react, merely that they could have used lesser means

It's a truth thing, not a perception thing.  And as Xo keeps demonstrating, its an ignorant thing for some


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 06, 2011, 04:15:00 PM
See sirs lose.

Lose, lose, lose.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 06, 2011, 04:21:56 PM
There is ample egg on sirs face.
The Palestinians strolling in from Syria were not armed with rockets.
BT wins this round.

BT doesnt win shit...he rarely does....he dodges more than anything else.
BT in fact loses by making "apples to oranges" comparisions.
It's typical of his bullshit over the last year or so.
Where he plays the devil's advocate to the extreme
in an attempt to hold this place together
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 04:24:35 PM
Quote
No, I do NOT believe they "over-reacted", merely that they could have used lesser means. 

If they had used lesser means then perhaps they wouldn't be accused of over-reacting.

20 unarmed dead is a bit much, especially if they had lesser means at their disposal to control the situation.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 04:37:03 PM
Quote
No, I do NOT believe they "over-reacted", merely that they could have used lesser means.  

If they had used lesser means then perhaps they wouldn't be accused of over-reacting.

Oh, I'm sure the Anti-Israeli zealots would have their rhetoric turned up on high, no matter what was used.  At least this way, future protesters, who wish to illegally cross into another country's territory, will think twice


20 unarmed dead is a bit much, especially if they had lesser means at their disposal to control the situation.

That is a matter of perception, context, and ultimately about the truth, which again has been provided, and has yet to be refuted, much less even acknowledged by the likes of those that want to keep portraying Israel in the worst PR light possible
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 04:43:06 PM
There is ample egg on sirs face.
The Palestinians strolling in from Syria were not armed with rockets.
BT wins this round.

BT doesnt win shit...he rarely does....he dodges more than anything else.
BT in fact loses by making "apples to oranges" comparisions.
It's typical of his bullshit over the last year or so.
Where he plays the devil's advocate to the extreme
in an attempt to hold this place together

 ::)

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 06, 2011, 04:44:43 PM
future protesters, who wish to illegally cross into another country's territory, will think twice

problem is....paid stooges dont think
this stunt is meant to use the media whores & the 5Th Column
to steal headlines away from Assad mowing down thousands of his own people.
Cuzz golly-geee SIRS we know mowing down thousands of your own people is not
nearly as bad as Israel protecting it's borders from stooges of it's sworn enemies!
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 04:45:14 PM
Quote
No, I do NOT believe they "over-reacted", merely that they could have used lesser means.  

If they had used lesser means then perhaps they wouldn't be accused of over-reacting.

Oh, I'm sure the Anti-Israeli zealots would have their rhetoric turned up on high, no matter what was used.  At least this way, future protesters, who wish to illegally cross into another country's territory, will think twice


20 unarmed dead is a bit much, especially if they had lesser means at their disposal to control the situation.

That is a matter of perception, context, and ultimately about the truth, which again has been provided, and has yet to be refuted, much less even acknowledged by the likes of those that want to keep portraying Israel in the worst PR light possible

You still don't get it, do you. Bad PR influences the undecided.
Israel can't afford to alienate anyone.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 04:47:04 PM
Quote
Cuzz golyy Geee SIRS we know mowing down thousands of your own people is not
nearly as bad as Israel protecting it's borders from stooges of it's sworn enemies!

You act as if Israel had no control over its own reaction. Even Sirs concedes they could have used lesser means.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 06, 2011, 04:47:26 PM
Israel can't afford to alienate anyone.

why not?
like they have alot of support among the butchers and thieves at the UN
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 04:54:01 PM
You still don't get it, do you. Bad PR influences the undecided.
Israel can't afford to alienate anyone.

Actually, I get it just fine.....I know the truth.  You're already on record of advocating Israel's need to concede, arrange for some form of land swap, and thus placating and enabling continued aggression upon Israel.  You've also convinced me that there can be no peace, so Israel is justified in doing just about anything it needs to do, in order to defend its very existence
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 06, 2011, 04:56:14 PM
You act as if Israel had no control over its own reaction.
 Even Sirs concedes they could have used lesser means.

Frankly BT the "world's condemnations" of Israel dont mean squat to me
I really dont care.....AT ALL.
The butchers and thieves at the UN have zero value to me....
Ya know the same crowd that nominates Libya and other butchers to Human Rights Committees?
The enemies of Israel can lob missle after missle into Israel
The enemies of Israel can blow up civilian buses in Israel
The enemies of Israel can target children's schools
The enemies of Israel can do almost anything....and where is the "outrage"?
So frankly the "outrage" is a big sham.....there is no real outrage.
The enemies of Israel use the media whores to help them with this fake outrage.
Assad mows down thousands but "the world" is OUTRAGED about Israel...
Laughable!

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 06, 2011, 05:00:51 PM
this is what this Israel kills protesters scam is all about

Anti-government rebels capture parts of NW Syria,
kill 120 security officers


DEBKAfile Exclusive Report

June 6, 2011

(http://www.debka.com/dynmedia/photos/2011/06/06/big/Hama6.6.11.jpg)
Armed rebels in Hama downtown

Thousands of paramilitary rebels wielding guns and explosives have seized an area of northwestern Syria between the towns of Homs, Hama and Latakiya. Syrian State TV interrupted its broadcasts for the second time Monday, June 6, to announce that "terrorist gangs" had killed at least 120 troops and security officers, most of them in the embattled town of Jisr al-Shughour.
In that town, at least 35 protesters were killed by pro-government forces in the last 24 hours.

Military sources disclose that Syrian President Bashar Assad has dispatched Brigade 555, the strategic reserve guarding the regime in Damascus, and the army's 85th brigade, in a desperate bid to snuff out the armed revolt in the Homs-Hama-Restan-Jisr al-Shughour region. 

Our sources say rebel control of this area is complete. They have torched all the buildings housing government and ruling institutions and no government forces are to be seen there.
Monday night, the rebels seized the army's explosive stores near the big dams on the Orontes River. They used a part of the five tons of explosives they gained control of to blow up the river bridges linking central and southern Syria to the northwest so as to block the passage of tanks and commando reinforcements.

Our intelligence sources disclose that potential mutiny in the Syrian armed forces was first signaled Sunday, June 5, when Brigadier Manaf Tlas, commander of the 105th Brigade of the elite Republican Guard and deputy of the president's brother Gen. Maher Assad, announced that he and his staff officers were going on strike until Bashar Assad met their demands.

Those demands relate to the honor of the prominent Tlas clan of the city of Restan. But more importantly, that one of Assad's key commanders was willing to lay down arms in the middle of the government's life-or-death struggle against a rapidly advancing revolt attested to the black mood sweeping the military elite in the regime's direst time of need.

Monday night, Syrian TV suddenly interrupted its broadcasts for Interior Minister Gen. Muhammad Sha'er to make an announcement. He said Syria's problem today is not an attempt to overthrow the regime but a deliberate attempt to topple the Syrian state. Syria faces a rebellion staged by armed terrorists, he said.

The general was the first Syrian public figure to publicly describe the uprising and demonstrations engulfing the country in terms of a regime fighting for its life.

Sunday, debkafile reported that Assad's security machine is creaking badly, a judgment made by Israeli and Western intelligence watchers on the strength of its failure to raise thousands of Palestinian and Syrian volunteers to brave the Israeli troops manning the Golan. The staged protest fizzled out Monday when only dozens of volunteers turned up opposite the Israeli border, only to be turned back by Syrian troops.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 05:03:37 PM
Quote
like they have alot of support among the butchers and thieves at the UN

They aren't the ones Israel need to worry about.

They need to worry about the "middle Americans" who accept without question the US's support of Israel and all it does.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 06, 2011, 05:21:50 PM
They need to worry about the "middle Americans" who accept without question the US's support of Israel and all it does.
BT we will "agree to disagree"
I dont think they have to worry at all.
The American people know that Israel is the beach-head against the IslamoNazis.
Americans will continue their support for Israel.

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/WAVINGFLAG.gif)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 05:39:22 PM
Quote
The American people know that Israel is the beach-head against the IslamoNazis.
Americans will continue their support for Israel.


I don't think they will, if the Israeli's keep shooting unarmed protestors.

Add to that all the money we send to Israel and Palestine and Egypt while calling for massive cuts in spending here at home and sooner or later people will pick up on that disconnect and start demanding that Israel get its ass to the peace talks and work out the best deal it can.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 06, 2011, 05:56:31 PM
I don't think they will, if the Israeli's keep shooting unarmed protestors.

We send money to Pakistan who trains and harbors people that kill our soldiers.
I doubt the American People are fooled by the stooge Syrian/Hezbolla/Iranian backed protesters.

Israel get its ass to the peace talks and work out the best deal it can.

You do not negotiate with people that don't recognize you exist
because you know any agreement is worthless.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 06, 2011, 06:06:56 PM
Quote
You do not negotiate with people that don't recognize you exist
because you know any agreement is worthless.

That's Israels call. Even though though they have the military to take on and defeat most of their neighbors simultaneously.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 06:35:55 PM
..demanding that Israel get its ass to the peace talks and work out the best deal it can.

You do not negotiate with people that don't recognize you exist
because you know any agreement is worthless.

BINGO
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 06, 2011, 10:45:31 PM
future protesters, who wish to illegally cross into another country's territory, will think twice

problem is....paid stooges dont think

True....BUT....in this case, the use of firearms vs that of...oh, loud music, or even water cannons, would make even the most ignorant stooge rethink the idea of illegally crossing into Isreal.  But as I said before, it wouldn't have mattered what Israel used, it'd be spun as inhumane, or degrading, or cruel.  Can you imagine the outrage of mass tasers were used?


this stunt is meant to use the media whores & the 5Th Column
to steal headlines away from Assad mowing down thousands of his own people.

If it weren't for the date of the event, I'd agree 100%.  That said, I still concur, that it was convenient timing for the Syrian government to get the media to (willingly) turn their wrath upon Israel once again.  It's partly why I posted this article on how Arab dictators are far worse in their treatment of Arab peoples, than the Israelis are (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/debunking-myths-about-israel/msg125758/#msg125758)


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Plane on June 06, 2011, 11:46:13 PM
mass tasers?

that is an interesting notion

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/20100119.aspx (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/20100119.aspx)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device)

The LRAD is the most successfull non leathal device for croud repelling so far, Isreal could buy an hundred units off the shwlf.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 03:26:58 PM
Quote
like they have alot of support among the butchers and thieves at the UN

They aren't the ones Israel need to worry about.

They need to worry about the "middle Americans" who accept without question the US's support of Israel and all it does.

(http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Middle-East-Sympathies-Full-Trend-1988-2011-1.gif)

Not a problem apparently.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 03:58:31 PM
Give it time. Shooting unarmed protestors sooner or later will affect the polling.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 04:22:43 PM
Yea, it might even drop to 60% support of Israel's right in defending itself, by whatever means necessary
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 04:30:13 PM
It might stay high as 60%, probably won't, but if there is one thing i know about Americans is they have an innate sense of fair play. And shooting unarmed protestors doesn't meet that criteria.

Now you may think that shooting unarmed protestors is the right thing to do, but my suspicion is you would be in the minority with that opinion.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 04:35:33 PM
It might stay high as 60%, probably won't, but if there is one thing i know about Americans is they have an innate sense of fair play.  

Agreed.....and folks illegally crossing into another's territory, risking the repercussions in those actions, protesting a position that is completely implausible, provides a perspective of truth when deciding on that sense of fair play.  Here's a hint, its a minority of folks who believe that Israel needs to lose as many lives as Palestinians, if not more, in order to be "fair".  That's not what war is, as you've referenced yourself.  In war, you get the other side to lose their life

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 04:40:19 PM
It might stay high as 60%, probably won't, but if there is one thing i know about Americans is they have an innate sense of fair play.  

Agreed.....and folks illegally crossing into another's territory, risking the repercussions in those actions, protesting a position that is completely implausible, provides a perspective of truth when deciding on that sense of fair play.  Here's a hint, its a minority of folks who believe that Israel needs to lose as many lives as Palestinians, if not more, in order to be "fair".  That's not what war is, as you've referenced yourself.  In war, you get the other side to lose their life


Spin it anyway you like, but shooting unarmed protestors is not the best way to make friends and influence people. And sooner or later that will reflect in the polls.


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 04:52:47 PM
No spin.....the truth is on Israel's side
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 04:55:46 PM
No spin.....the truth is on Israel's side

What truth?

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 08, 2011, 05:01:01 PM
sirs would not recognize the truth if it bit him on the *&*^.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 05:07:31 PM
No spin.....the truth is on Israel's side

What truth?

asked and answered already (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/debunking-myths-about-israel/msg125776/#msg125776)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 05:11:16 PM
No spin.....the truth is on Israel's side

What truth?

asked and answered already (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/debunking-myths-about-israel/msg125776/#msg125776)

Which has little to do with the truth of whether Israel overreacted by shooting 20 unarmed protestors.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 08, 2011, 05:18:27 PM
There is no justification at all for shooting 20 unarmed protesters. It merely makes Israel look bad.

The key to bringing justice to the Palestinians is passive resistance and civil disobedience. Blocking roads so that Jews are inconvenienced as the Israelis inconvenience Palestinians on a daily basis, that sort of thing.


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 05:41:27 PM
Sure there is.......when they were warned, when they then CHOSE to ILLEGALLY cross into another country's territory.  And what they are protesting is largely a moot point.  The land is Israel's, just as much, if not more than California is the U.S.'s.  Sure, they could have used lesser force, but the force used DEFINATELY makes further mass illegal crossing a little less likely.

Minus yours & Bt's opinion of over-reaction vs merely using more force than they could have, though still justified, the truth is the truth.  Sorry, if that rubs some folks the wrong way
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 05:56:33 PM
Quote
Minus yours & Bt's opinion of over-reaction vs merely using more force than they could have, though still justified, the truth is the truth.  Sorry, if that rubs some folks the wrong way

Yes. They used more force than they needed and or could have.

What is interesting is you seem to think nuking both parties if the eventual peace treaty is abridged is non proportional to the transgression, but you have no problem lining up unarmed protestors in your sights and blowing their heads off, as if having your head blown away when you pose no serious threat to the sovereignty of Israel is a proportional response.

Consistency please.


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 06:36:42 PM
Quote
Minus yours & Bt's opinion of over-reaction vs merely using more force than they could have, though still justified, the truth is the truth.  Sorry, if that rubs some folks the wrong way

Yes. They used more force than they needed and or could have.  

Yes, I think we've addressed that already


What is interesting is you seem to think nuking both parties if the eventual peace treaty is abridged is non proportional to the transgression, but you have no problem lining up unarmed protestors in your sights and blowing their heads off, as if having your head blown away when you pose no serious threat to the sovereignty of Israel is a proportional response.  

Minus the grotesque irrational hyperbole, one is defending one's country, the other is a rather ridiculous (IMHO) non starter of mass killing, of even those who were attacked in the 1st place. 

It's an apples oranges thing again

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 06:44:22 PM
Quote
Minus yours & Bt's opinion of over-reaction vs merely using more force than they could have, though still justified, the truth is the truth.  Sorry, if that rubs some folks the wrong way

Yes. They used more force than they needed and or could have.  

Yes, I think we've addressed that already


What is interesting is you seem to think nuking both parties if the eventual peace treaty is abridged is non proportional to the transgression, but you have no problem lining up unarmed protestors in your sights and blowing their heads off, as if having your head blown away when you pose no serious threat to the sovereignty of Israel is a proportional response.  

Minus the grotesque irrational hyperbole, one is defending one's country, the other is a rather ridiculous (IMHO) non starter of mass killing, of even those who were attacked in the 1st place. 

It's an apples oranges thing again

More like a matter of proportionality and scale.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 07:35:26 PM
Naaa, its an apples & oranges thing, not to mention gross hyperbole from your end
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 08, 2011, 07:56:23 PM
Murdering unarmed people is not a "hyperbole thing".
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 08:00:40 PM
Inferring that sirs has no problem "blowing people's heads off" is
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 08:05:41 PM
Inferring that sirs has no problem "blowing people's heads off" is


Did you not say that shooting unarmed protestors was justified and within the Israeli's rights?

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 08:10:18 PM
Yes.....you'll note that in no way equates to "blowing heads off".  That's YOUR ridiclous hyperbole, matched only in advocating that the U.S. nuke Isreal, in response to some Hamas terrorist attack, upon Isreal. 

A nice leg wound, works just fine for me
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 08:17:01 PM
Yes.....you'll note that in no way equates to "blowing heads off".  That's YOUR ridiclous hyperbole, matched only in advocating that the U.S. nuke Isreal, in response to some Hamas terrorist attack, upon Isreal. 

A nice leg wound, works just fine for me

Killing is killing and different from wounding, mainly in that the wounded live to tell the tale.  Are you now walking back your position, concerning Israel killing unarmed protestors? Perhaps a less lethal approach would be called for and have a better reception amongst  the rest of the world watching?

BTW just so you are clear, HAMAS would be nuked too.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 08:19:45 PM
SHOOTING IS SHOOTING 

KILLING IS KILLING

SHOOTING IS NOT KILLING
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 08:29:19 PM
Your position all along  has been that Israel was justified in killing those 20 unarmed protestors.

Are you changing that position?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 09:01:01 PM
No, they were justified in the use of force they used, which was shooting, which happened to have killed 20 illegally crossing protesters.  Killing requires a mindset that the object/intention WAS TO KILL.  Neither you nor I have any idea if the Israelis had shoot to kill orders.

Which again isn't even in the same ballpark is inferring some ok on my part to blow people's heads off     ::)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 09:09:17 PM
No, they were justified in the use of force they used, which was shooting, which happened to have killed 20 illegally crossing protesters.  Killing requires a mindset that the object/intention WAS TO KILL.  Neither you nor I have any idea if the Israelis had shoot to kill orders.

Which again isn't even in the same ballpark is inferring some ok on my part to blow people's heads off     ::)

Do you think the Israeli's might have suspected they were killing the protestors after the first one fell and didn't move? My understanding is the border was manned by trained snipers on the Israeli side of the border. One would think they would have been better shots.

But it's good to know that you agree that they shouldn't have killed anyone. That that was just overkill for the situation at hand.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 09:14:17 PM
No, I'd suspect they believed them to be injured, like most others might think.  If the object was to kill, why were there not far more killed?  There were more than 20 protesters, weren't there??   And as you say, with trained snipers, they'd have been able to kill pretty much any and everyone....IF that were the intention
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 08, 2011, 10:00:48 PM
BT presses SIRS about "murdering" unarmed protesters
while BT advocates plans that include nuking entire unarmed populations
irony?
go figure
 ::)
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 10:11:48 PM
BT presses SIRS about "murdering" unarmed protesters
while BT advocates plans that include nuking entire unarmed populations
irony?
go figure
 ::)


Ummm in order to qualify for the nuking, one or the other side must break the peace. I would suspect that breaking the peace involves arms. Tanks, airplanes, missiles, bullets, those kind of things.

I doubt a Palestinian shepherd mooning an Israeli sentry would qualify as breaking the peace.


Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 11:09:36 PM
I doubt any Palestinian shepherd would be attempting such a tactic, as a means of breaking the peace.  FAR MORE likely in that of a simple Hamas rocket attack, if knowing that the repercussions, per BT's plan, would bring about the end of Israel, via a U.S. nuclear attack

But back to the prior point....were there not more than 20 protesters, illegally crossing into Israeli territory?
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 11:32:14 PM
Quote
But back to the prior point....were there not more than 20 protesters, illegally crossing into Israeli territory?

Yes indeed. There were 325 additional people wounded. Interesting enough, at the Gaza border Israel choose to respond to protestors with rubber bullets and tear gas.
 
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 11:35:50 PM
Quote
I doubt any Palestinian shepherd would be attempting such a tactic, as a means of breaking the peace.  FAR MORE likely in that of a simple Hamas rocket attack, if knowing that the repercussions, per BT's plan, would bring about the end of Israel, via a U.S. nuclear attack

My guess is the Palestinian and Israelis would disarm anyone not affiliated with the armed forces. No random rockets fired by rabble rousers allowed.

I doubt a mooning would constitute a violation.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 08, 2011, 11:42:58 PM
Quote
I doubt any Palestinian shepherd would be attempting such a tactic, as a means of breaking the peace.  FAR MORE likely in that of a simple Hamas rocket attack, if knowing that the repercussions, per BT's plan, would bring about the end of Israel, via a U.S. nuclear attack

My guess is the Palestinian and Israelis would disarm anyone not affiliated with the armed forces. No random rockets fired by rabble rousers allowed.

But as you've already referenced, Hamas will find a way.  They're that committed, especially given the majority of Palestinians that support their efforts.  ......   *poof*, no more Israel


Quote
But back to the prior point....were there not more than 20 protesters, illegally crossing into Israeli territory?

Yes indeed. There were 325 additional people wounded.

Ahhh...wounded you say?  You mean the Israelis are THAT BAD at killing??  Wow  Or...Or....that was never the intention perhaps
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 08, 2011, 11:56:32 PM
Quote
But as you've already referenced, Hamas will find a way.  They're that committed, especially given the majority of Palestinians that support their efforts.  ......   *poof*, no more Israel

What i said in essence was that requiring Hamas to acknowledge Israels right to exist as a prerequisite for the peace talks was a delaying tactic on the Israelis part and basically a meaningless demand.

And if peace did break out with a satisfactory two state solution for all parties involved my guess is the Palestinians and Israeli's would treat very harshly any dissidents who would not allow the peace to stand. I doubt the US and Russians would ever have to deliver on the final solution. But a credible threat would be very important in motivating a lasting and mutually profitable settlement of the hostilities.

Quote
Ahhh...wounded you say?  You mean the Israelis are THAT BAD at killing??  Wow  Or...Or....that was never the intention perhaps

The decision to use live rounds at one border and not the other reveals all the intent necessary.

Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 09, 2011, 12:34:15 AM
The fact only 20 died, while far more were wounded indeed presents what the real intent was
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 09, 2011, 12:50:45 AM
The fact only 20 died, while far more were wounded indeed presents what the real intent was

Certainly the choice of live rounds had nothing to do with the fatalities.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 09, 2011, 01:11:40 AM
Given the amount wounded vs those that were killed, definately.  Also sent a really good message.......don't do it again
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: BT on June 09, 2011, 01:18:28 AM
Given the amount wounded vs those that were killed, definately.  Also sent a really good message.......don't do it again

Yeah zero fatalities in Gaza vs 20 in the Golan. Rubber vs metal. Hmmm

restraint vs slaughter.

decisions decisions.
Title: Re: Debunking myths about Israel
Post by: sirs on June 09, 2011, 01:28:06 AM
20 vs hundreds.  Yep