DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Christians4LessGvt on May 06, 2013, 06:55:15 PM
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Immigration Reform Cost 6.3 Trillion Dollars
May 6, 2013
The comprehensive immigration overhaul being taken up in the Senate this week could cost taxpayers $6.3 trillion if 11 million illegal immigrants are granted legal status, according to a long-awaited estimate by the conservative Heritage Foundation.
The cost would arise from illegal immigrants tapping into the government's vast network of benefits and services, many of which are currently unavailable to them. This includes everything from standard benefits like Social Security and Medicare to dozens of welfare programs ranging from housing assistance to food stamps.
The report was obtained in advance by Fox News.
"No matter how you slice it, amnesty will add a tremendous amount of pressure on America's already strained public purse," Robert Rector, the Heritage scholar who prepared the report, said in a statement.
The numbers could raise additional concerns for Republicans as a Senate committee prepares to consider the legislation later this week.
The comprehensive study also factored in the cost of public education and other services like highways and police. The government is already providing some of those services to illegal immigrants, so the $6.3 trillion figure would not represent all new costs.
But most of that cost would be new spending, according to Heritage, as illegal immigrants gain access to additional government benefits. The study acknowledges that, for a 10-year period, illegal immigrants seeking a reprieve would be barred from these benefits. After that window, though, Heritage forecasts the costs skyrocketing.
On an annual basis, the report estimates the cost will be $106 billion after the interim phase is over. In the course of their lifetime, the report estimates that illegal immigrant households would receive an average of $592,000 in government benefits.
The $6.3 trillion figure is based on what illegal immigrants would cost the government over the course of their lifetime. It factors in the expected taxes they?d pay to the government.
Supporters of immigration legislation have been skeptical of efforts to assign a cost to the immigration bill. Proponents argue that the value of bringing millions of illegal immigrants out of the shadows and presumably into the taxpaying workforce is immeasurable.
Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., a key co-author of the legislation, has also stressed that illegal immigrants applying for legal status would not have access to federal benefits while they are applying.
http://janmorganmedia.com/2013/05/immigration-reform-cost-6-3-trillion-dollars/ (http://janmorganmedia.com/2013/05/immigration-reform-cost-6-3-trillion-dollars/)
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"give each $150K and send them home?"
oh wait a minute
that wont work
cuzz they cant vote for the Taxocrats if we pay them to go home!
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I pionted this out earlier and it never gets address
The recipient of these benefits are not nessicarily illegal meaning americans can pose as multiple illegal aliens to recieve this. So the high cost be that a good chuck of this 11 mil . Might not be real.
Identity theft is quite the thing nowadays
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The recipient of these benefits are not nessicarily illegal meaning americans can pose as multiple illegal aliens to recieve this. So the high cost be that a good chuck of this 11 mil . Might not be real.
Hell even if they were way off the mark and it was half the 11 trillion
thats still a huge huge chunk of money we dont have.
why why why we allow our country to be over-run
with poor, uneducated, low-skilled workers is insanity.
it's suicide!
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why why why we allow our country to be over-run
with poor, uneducated, low-skilled workers is insanity.
it's suicide!
the major bulk of china`s labor is poor,uneducated,low skilled workers and it progress pretty well with them I`ll even go as far as say depend on it. if America can`t do the same whose fault is that?
the problem with America was never ability ,but ultilization
americans are the noted to be the most skilled workers in the world but can`t be trusted to make mouse traps. until somebody figure out how to get these folks to work. illegals will always be in demand.
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the major bulk of china`s labor is poor,uneducated,low skilled workers and it progress pretty well with them
Yes and China is still a third world country.
China has risen from shit to "ok".
We dont want to be Third World.
The US if it imports enough poor uneducated will be third world too.
We don't want to be China....
As the link below shows
The US sits at #3 of the UN's Human Development Index and China sits at a pathetic #101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index)
americans are the noted to be the most skilled workers in the world but can`t be trusted to make mouse traps.
Oh Americans can make a mouse trap,
but they have more important things they can do
like create/design technology like I-pads and computers
and let un-educated slave-labor peasants in China build simple stuff like mouse-traps and tennis shoes
assembly lines are last century....and will no doubt be replaced by robots
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Let us not assume that the Heritage Foundation knows anything about anything.
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Uhm
You do know that those ipad and computers are made in china don't you? You will be hard press to find tech made in the U.S.
Third world?
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm (http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm)
But besides that using the development index is too general .
Do to sheer size of china's popula tion it'll look like china is underdeveloped compared to the u.s. despite more advance commercial technology,internet,manufactor and medicine.
Remember americans go to asia for medical treatments nowadays.
Forgot to mention unlike america the use of labor is different . The work assembly is design to ultilized unskilled labor to make technology.
The same goes for all other country used for outsourcing from america.
But i'll give credit to america for one thing those annoying safety regulation that seem to hamper businesses has earn alot of trust with the world. Most countries will trust american food products over thier own. America has the best rep for safety.
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P.S. do you really believe china a country not to considered a worthy competitor?
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Uhm ....You do know that those ipad and computers are made in china don't you?
You will be hard press to find tech made in the U.S.
Exactly as I expected...you change the subject you brought up ....mousetraps to where computers are "made"
I thought about addressing that because I knew you'd "run for cover" under that umbrella
Oh well...addressing it now...is just the same.
Yes Kimba...China "makes" computers....basically puts them together
Thats soooooo last century....but soon robots will be even cheaper than slave labor in China!
The point is ingenuity, design, inventive-ness is where it's at
Besides you trying to make a point that a country is somehow better off
in importing tens of millions of poor uneducated unskilled workers seems rather silly
China wants to become as developed as we are,
We dont wanna become a very poor country like China is
Third world?
Yes Third World....but I dont wanna argue over semantics....we can say "Very Poor" instead
China over-all is still a very poor country....basically most of China is a shit-hole.
Has it improved?...Yes!....but it no where near a developed country over-all....like First World Nations
I have a close liberal friend that after college graduation went to China
he travelled all over China....
He said he was utterly astounded at the level of poverty...like really really bad...outside the big cities
China wants/dreams to be like the US...rated high in the UN Development Index.
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I did not say be poor like china. I said learn how to use thier system to ultilize labor. Do you really believe china will never catch up on inventiveness? America is not exactly pushing for creativity in school.
China i pretty sure will make every effort to bridge the creativity gap.
I was not aware i was voiding the topic, i really thought i was facing you head on. I' ll try better but obviously i'm missing something.
I truely believe america is in no position to not learn from other countries,if anything it's a liabilty. Funny you said robots. America invented automated assembly but japan ultilized it since ths country refused to use it til much later on.
Meaning this country is not exactly fighting to stay on top. I hear china will make it own processors soon. Meaning we may see some made in china computers by your own definition.
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China can build anything the US can. So could most other countries. The important thing is who can build an item at the lowest cost. The Chinese have a huge source of cheap labor in the interior that can be moved easily to factories nearer the coast and convenient distribution points.
If you paid $100 for something made in the US, it most likely cost around $30 to manufacture. If you make the same item in China, the cost is around $10. The difference is an extra $20 in that for some middlemen, and extra profit for the rest of the distribution chain.
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Don't forget redtape
Chins can get a production going in less than a month. In america it takes quite abit longer.
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China can build anything the US can.
Ah, not quite. They had to buy a mothballed nuclear carrier from Russia to get started on that program. They have a ways to go.
BSB
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Do you really believe china will never catch up on inventiveness?
Of course they won't catch up....as long as they remain Communist.
Communist make good copy-cats....but not innovators.
And besides Commi-holdbacks....there's this.
(http://atlantaseos.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Business-Insider-logo.png)
UBS' George Magnus: Cultural Genes Are
Preventing China From Leading The World
Rob Wile | Sep. 13, 2012
UBS senior economic adviser George Magnus published a lengthy note earlier this week explaining why Asia is slowing down, and what can be done to avoid it.
One passage stuck out to us because it connected China's lack of technological progress to deap-seated cultural norms.
According to Professor Peng Gong of Tsinghua University and Berkeley, China?s problem isn?t the amount of R&D it produces, but the quality, and this is related to two cultural genes that have passed through generations of Chinese intellectuals.
The first is the Confucian proposal that intellectuals become loyal administrators, the second comes from the writings of Zhuang Zhou who proclaimed that a harmonious society would arise from isolating families to avoid exchange and conflict, and by shunning technology. The modern consequence, he says, is a society that discourages curiosity, critique, challenge, commercialisation and collaborative technology. China's celebrated high speed rail network may be a case in point. Until 2003,the Ministry of Railways sought to develop high speed rail and track without foreign assistance, and in an official attempt to take on world bullet train manufacturers. But this indigenous technology initiative failed seemingly for many of the reasons suggested above, and was abandoned abruptly in favour of a "market access for technology transfer policy", which resulted in approaches to major high speed companies in Japan, France, the UK and Germany. The programme accelerated rapidly, with China buying the patents, but its suppliers retaining the intellectual property rights.
Magnus thinks they must make changes soon or they'll never truly become global leaders:
Anecdotes and examples, such as this, can certainly be seen as half full, or half empty examples of where China has arrived. But there's a strong view that China's innovation and technology shortcomings are rooted in a socio-cultural system, and an incentive system that emphasises incremental over radical change, and quantity over quality and uniqueness. No one can say that these problems will retard Chinese innovation and technological competitiveness forever. But in our view they emphasise that in the absence of on-going political reform, and the creation of robust institutions, China's technological cutting edge may forever lag behind that of its western competitors and rivals.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ubs-george-magnus-china-2012-9#ixzz2Se1gJmD2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/ubs-george-magnus-china-2012-9#ixzz2Se1gJmD2)
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China's leaders have managed to have an annual positive growth rate of 6 to 10% for the past decade.
No capitalist nation has EVER done this.
Being Communist and being copycats are entirely different things.
Mercedes and BMW are famous for innovations in cars, but Lexus beats them both on reliability, mostly by copying.
China has built a rapid train system in a fraction of the time that the Europeans required.
Rapid and steady development does not require a country to possess the latest technology, only the latest workable technology.
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I have the Lexus LS460L and there's more Toyota in it, and I don't mean that as a negative, than Mercedes. I don't think Lexus needs to copy any more. You're right though in that Lexus is more reliable but less technologically advanced.
BSB
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True china may have a cultural hangup with technology but that article did not factor hong kong and taiwan. Totally different cultures that can easily tip the scale if china really want to catch up.
Also that article did not mention how easy it can be creative. Just be exposed to massive amount of reference data. Meaning travel and study art.
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China's leaders have managed to have an annual positive growth rate of 6 to 10% for the past decade. No capitalist nation has EVER done this.
Ha! The ONLY reason China has crawled out from the shithole is BECAUSE they opened up to allow investment, technology, and international business to enter the Chinese economy. They have growth because they were so backward and slowly allowing more freedom. When we first started our company the first 5 years we won awards for rapid growth and expansion....sure we were doing well....but it's easier to grow rapidly when you start from nothing.
Would you rather have decades and decades of economic growth/prosperity like the US that puts you in the elite class of the UN's Human Development Index....or few years of rocket growth like China? There is simply no comparison! Tight economic control via Communism held China in the shitters and open free market pro business economics propelled the US to prosperity and innovation.
China has built a rapid train system in a fraction of the time that the Europeans required.
Obviously you did not read the article where it speaks exactly about China's "celebrated" high speed rail you refer to.....where they had to approach major high speed companies in Japan, France, Germany, and the UK.
"China's celebrated high speed rail network may be a case in point. Until 2003,the Ministry of Railways sought to develop high speed rail and track without foreign assistance, and in an official attempt to take on world bullet train manufacturers. But this indigenous technology initiative failed seemingly for many of the reasons suggested above, and was abandoned abruptly in favour of a "market access for technology transfer policy", which resulted in approaches to major high speed companies in Japan, France, the UK and Germany. The programme accelerated rapidly, with China buying the patents, but its suppliers retaining the intellectual property rights".
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So what? They built the railroads and they did it fast, with no more disruptions than the Europeans had when they built their railroads.
What is the point? that the Chinese should develop a different alternative technology to build railroads?
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I think the message is china will never be considered of notice to America. nation of failure always.
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China has done more in the past 20 years than the US did in 50 with regard to building infrastructure. Of course, they had absolute control of the labor market, they controlled all the resources, and could do things that no US government had the power to do.
But China's development has been exemplary.
The Phony Christian has been brainwashed. Not a lot of soap was required, I imagine.
I was not answering the question "would I prefer to live in China or the US"?
At the moment, the people who are running the US economy are simply importing crap from places like Bangladesh so they can quadruple their money. It is just a race to the bottom, and it is not good for most Americans. Certainly not good for all those 200+ Bengalis that died, either.
I am happy that the stock market is doing well, as I have money invested (none in Bangladesh or even China).
But capitalism is the only game that anyone can play, and the situation is that on study up on the rules and play or be played, like all those assholes buying CD's at 2%.
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I find it funny believing china and india is too backward to figure out how to reverse engineer the tech being assembled there.
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I find it funny believing china and india is too backward to figure
out how to reverse engineer the tech being assembled there.
thats exactly my point!
they cant do shit on their own
they have to "reverse engineer"...aka....copycat
why the hell cant they invent things?
why cant they be creative...instead of being a "cover band"?
instead of "reverse engineering" stuff....
how 'bout invent tons of life changing stuff in recent times?
oh sure they can assemble cell phones
oh sure they can reverse engineer a cell phone
but they'll never will be on par with American/Western World ingenuity....
until they trash the outdated failed theories of Commi-ism
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dang this is my forth post hopes this makes it
How do you know china hasn`t made anything new? besides that. copying hasn`t exactly hurt japan or korea anyway. and their some of their products has exceeded U.S. made counterparts. cars for example.
you say innovation. but don`t forget development.
but don`t forget education in America at this moment pushing math,science and computers for education but the tech companies are insourcing engineers with background beyond those core requirements ex. art and philosophy.
standard stuff from a british education. I recall America used to have this kind of education.
foreign language,art,music, literature, subject today considered not even secondary.
It took me decades to figure out how incredibly important those subject are to everything else. I love science but will push philosophy and literature.
steve jobs was a philosophy student and his product are items no standard engineer would ever think of developing or want.
ipod,phone or pad didn`t have a card reader but only people with abit of tech knowledge would find it a bad idea. but most consumers don`t even care to used a card reader. apple is geared toward consumers. tech minded folks has no idea how a consumer thinks. I have a ipod and all I see is flaws but this is the most indemand item . my old mp3 is easier to use. I can totally understand how a philosophy student see something I don`t about the wants of people.
I remember along time ago I asked a engineer friend of to install office and he simply can`t understand why people would want it. now it`s considered standard to have office. absolutely no concept of the needs of business or the average consumer. remember the big hassle about backwards compatabilty.
I`ll bet office2013 will have that issue.
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How do you know china hasn`t made anything new?
I didnt say China "hasn't made anything new"....
They just are not very good at it or have not been very innovative in huge volume
at least not like free market democratic countries have shown to be
China is on their way to a free market economy
and they will get there one day..
like you said earlier in some ways they are more free market than we are
and thats a big reason why they are improving so fast....
Richard Nixon helped billions of people when he was first
in extending an open hand in a realistic way to China
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I think the message is china will never be considered of notice to America. nation of failure always.
No, any thinking person knows that China very likely is looking at a bright future. They'll catch up on inventiveness. That takes time. You can't underestimate the advantage our secondary education institutions give us. China has to develop that.
BSB
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It is indeed idiotic to credit Nixon with recuing China and putting it on the path to success.
First, it was Kissinger, NOT Nixon that came up with this idea. The intent had NOTHING to do with fostering development in China, and everything to do with guaranteeing that when Nixon threatened to bomb the Hell out of North Vietnem, laos and Cambodia, the Chinese would not intervene, as they had done in Korea.
It was Deng Xiaoping that was responsible for this, NOT tricky dicky or Kissinger.
The Chinese, of course, realized that there was no advantage in fighting the US in Vietnam.
They did not gain much in Korea, either, but in Vietnem there was no danger that they would end up with a prosperous capitalist country on their border.
The Chinese gained a veto seat in the UN and recognition of the PRC by the US. It was a no brainer for the Chinese.
The main reason the US did not recognize the real China as China up until Nixon, was the red baiting Nixon himself.
That is why they say "Only Nixon could have gone to China."
Has a Democrat done it, they would have been accused of being a Communist....by Nixon, Goldwater and the rest of the crypto Fascist GOP.
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(http://puzzles.telegraph.co.uk/site/images/telegraph_logo.gif)
China may not overtake America this century after all
Doubts are growing about whether China can pass the US to become
the world's biggest economy this century amid warnings that the
country?s 30-year miracle is nearing exhaustion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/10044456/China-may-not-overtake-America-this-century-after-all.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/10044456/China-may-not-overtake-America-this-century-after-all.html)
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yeah but that only talks about china. what about the U.S. ? I pointed out problems with education today. How the requirements of decades past is quite abit higher than todays standards.
colleges todays are cited to have less variety of courses.
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(http://puzzles.telegraph.co.uk/site/images/telegraph_logo.gif)
China may not overtake America this century after all
Doubts are growing about whether China can pass the US to become
the world's biggest economy this century amid warnings that the
country?s 30-year miracle is nearing exhaustion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/10044456/China-may-not-overtake-America-this-century-after-all.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/10044456/China-may-not-overtake-America-this-century-after-all.html)
No economy is going to do nothing but grow unimpeded. What's with you CU4? Competition is the best thing for us.
BSB
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The goal should be to be the country with the best quality of life, NOT the country that has the largest economy.
It should be irrelevant whether China or the US has the biggest economy. It would not affect my life if the Chinese had a bigger economy.
BSB is right, competition provokes lower prices, more efficiency, more innovation.
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New Technologies That Could Change the World
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100709926#_gus (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100709926#_gus)
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BSB is right, competition provokes lower prices, more efficiency, more innovation.
So as SIRS constantly points out......you agree with a strawman argument....BFD.
Who stated they are against competition?
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As i used japan as an example ;the thing about new tech is it still needs to be used. Meaning it doesn't nessecarily will be used in the U.S. and will likely be whatever countries advantage. Created in america doesn't mean made and used in america. One of the very reason people go overseas for thier medical treatments.
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Who stated they are against competition?
======================================
Who is "They"?
You started this by badmouthing China as backward and its people as mere copycats.
So long as the competition is simply economic, that is, of course, the way to go and will benefit everyone.
But the US, specifically the Oligarchy of this country, always tries to get the upper hand by hook or crook, like assassinations of Mossedeagh, the overthrow of countless Latin American democracies, and the support of dictatorial leaders and kings. This sort of thing is always more prevalent when the GOP is in charge.
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You started this by badmouthing China as backward and its people as mere copycats.
Wrong again Professor Bozo.
I did not start this...read before you write!
Kimba was the first to refer to Chinese workers as "poor, uneducated, low skilled"....
but I know reality hardly ever stops you from inventing some fantasy world strawman bullshit.
I simply get sick of all the "glowing reports" about China when in reality China is basically a very poor country. China is backward in many ways. China has a piss poor ranking from the World Bank and is crying about their ranking!
http://rt.com/business/rating-china-world-bank-951/ (http://rt.com/business/rating-china-world-bank-951/)
While western countries were moving forward, China was sitting still for the last hundred years or so....Commi-ism of course made it worse.
China is now moving from a subsistence, agricultural based economy to a more manufacturing based one, but the western countries all made this move a hundred years ago (or more)!
But the US, specifically the Oligarchy of this country, always tries to get the upper hand by hook or crook, like assassinations of Mossedeagh, the overthrow of countless Latin American democracies, and the support of dictatorial leaders and kings. This sort of thing is always more prevalent when the GOP is in charge.
Or use drones to assassinate enemies like Obama does...directed by the Oligarchy,
Obama has used drones for oversees assassinations more than any President in history!
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See if you can follow this CU4isaBozo. I said competition is good for us. I implied that you didn't want Chinese competition, not XO. Then you came in here and without reading the posts go after XO. A clue for you Christian, don't declare someone has WMD until you know that for a fact.
This is also very funny: "Obama has used drones for oversees assassinations more than any President in history!"
How many presidents have used drones for overseas assassinations Christianbozo? Two?
BSB
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Yeah, saying that Obama evil because he used drones is like saying that President Polk was good because he never ordered the Air Force to strafe Mexicans in the Mexican-American War.
General Lee never used machine guns. Genghis Khan never used poison gas.