DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Plane on June 16, 2013, 08:19:55 PM
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Cabela's Open Carry Conundrum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q47nVz0YC5M#ws)
Detained by Biddeford PD for Open Carry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifv5qfuXmKQ#)
Best Open Carry Explanation Ever! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxXRJILDwEY#)
The Police are not being well breifed on what the law really is , as a rule it is not good to irritate them , but should they be irritated ?
A Field Guide to Gun Shop CUSTOMERS: Beware of the Lurking Know it all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ5d2lnTkdo#ws)
This one is just very funny.
Especially when he is speaking of the "know it all".
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On a serious note however, open carry is NOT, repeat, NOT a good idea. The reason concealed carry is such an effective deterrent is that the bad guy doesn't know who might be carrying. If they do know, them they become target #1
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If I had my way I would make a goal of 5%.
If 5% of the regular Joes and Janes were carrying concieled arms all of the time , a criminal would be playing odds of one in twenty every time he robbed , raped or otherwise comitted a crime.
It would not even be hard to find 5% of the population that had good historys and reasonable self controll.
I would expect the result to be a drastic decline in violent crimes.
Every percent above 5% would just be gravy.
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I like the goal, but definately wouldn't make it a legislative mandate
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Yes , but I think a small percent like 5% could be encouraged without being forced .
How much change would this require?
Could you give a small reward to people who carry and behave well?
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To be honest, I wouldn't want to place some "reward", at least monetarily. I think it may attract too many who just want to recapture images of the old west. I'll have to mull other some other incentives
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Ok
Want to brainstorm?
What could be done that would destroy the confidence of criminals , without offending a lot of ordinary citizens or causing opression to even a few innocents?
This is not a trivial problem, it is the whole reason the police exist.
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Exactly, and why monetary incentives should be relegated to law enforcement, IMHO. Hmmmmmm So, common sense tells us criminals do not want to get shot. They'll try to avoid persons/places they know have guns, except of course for the extreme nut cases that may be targeting someone famous or political, regardless of what bodyguards they may have. I love the idea of signs that include "This neighborhood patrolled by Concealed Carry Holders".
But as for incentivising 5% of the population to be CCW holders?.......hmmmm......perhaps they can be provided extra discounts or even free access to Gun safety courses and defensive pistol competitions. My time in IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association) was very rewarding and instructive
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The IDPA: "Experience the thrill, the excitement and the camaraderie of competitive shooting. Join IDPA, ....."
"The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters."
http://www.idpa.com (http://www.idpa.com)
Ha ha, in other words, get your rocks off shooting at human targets.
BSB
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Naaa, more like learn how to defend yourself safely using a pistol. That is what a bad guy is to someone defending themself with a firearm...a human target.
Well, if BnonameB doesn't like the idea, I'm thinking its a better idea all the more 8)
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"if BnonameB doesn't like the idea"
I said nothing about Planes idea.
BSB
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A serious revolver. Freedom Arms does really great work.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/freedom-arms-1997-45-lc-pr23938/ (http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/freedom-arms-1997-45-lc-pr23938/)
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"if BnonameB doesn't like the idea"
I said nothing about Planes idea.
When did I say you did??
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Funny, I see IDPA, and its competition shooting, as a fact, and you and plan are working on an idea.
BSB
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That made no sense. He asked about brainstorming ideas. I referenced the notion (possible plan) of providing opportunity to incentivise potential CCW holders, with improved access to Safety Courses and firearms training, such as IDPA. So, it was never Plane's idea, as it relates to IDPA
Would you like to provide some ideas to bring about a goal of 5% of the population as being CCW holders? THAT would be Plane's idea
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A serious revolver. Freedom Arms does really great work.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/freedom-arms-1997-45-lc-pr23938/ (http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/freedom-arms-1997-45-lc-pr23938/)
Very nice, but I really like my SigSauer, and have gotten pretty proficient with it.
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That made no sense. He asked about brainstorming ideas. I referenced the notion (possible plan) of providing opportunity to incentivise potential CCW holders, with improved access to Safety Courses and firearms training, such as IDPA. So, it was never Plane's idea, as it relates to IDPA
Would you like to provide some ideas to bring about a goal of 5% of the population as being CCW holders? THAT would be Plane's idea
Yes , but I wouldn't mind hearing about some other ideas that would discurage violent crime.
Cameras everywhere?
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That made no sense. He asked about brainstorming ideas. I referenced the notion (possible plan) of providing opportunity to incentivise potential CCW holders, with improved access to Safety Courses and firearms training, such as IDPA. So, it was never Plane's idea, as it relates to IDPA
Would you like to provide some ideas to bring about a goal of 5% of the population as being CCW holders? THAT would be Plane's idea
Yes , but I wouldn't mind hearing about some other ideas that would discurage violent crime.
Me too, which is why I asked B, and will be patiently awaiting his input
Cameras everywhere?
Not as much a deterrent as improved evidence for subsequent trials
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When you are brainstorming , ideas that are pretty wild and unrealistic can be thrown in , from some such better ideas and more practical ideas sprout.
Suppose I reccomended that we train a lot of undercover cops to wander around looking like easy marks, I know that undercover cops are not cheap so there will always be a limit on the utility of ideas like this.
But what if the next idea was to hang alarms on easy marks , such that when they are attacked it is never long before the police know.
Still not a practical idea , but there is movment in the direction of an idea that is useable.
What would you think if a policeman told you that you looked like easy meat , and said" Would you wear this monitor so that we will know instantly when a mugger trys to harvest you?"?
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When you are brainstorming , ideas that are pretty wild and unrealistic can be thrown in , from some such better ideas and more practical ideas sprout.
Absolutely.......and I don't want to say I'm trying to shoot down the idea of cameras. Merely giving you my 2 cents on how potentially applicable the idea is, from my limited perspective. So don't think any critisim is designed to cease any brainstorming ideas. If anything, to possibly narrow the parameters, perhaps
Let's play with the camera idea a bit....perhaps technology can be improved upon which doesn't focus so much on facial recognition, but more on weapon identification. Let's say a camera spots someone with a gun, identifies it as such, and initiates a program that alerts all the other nearby cameras to lock on to that subject. The software would have to be able to identify a police officer from some person brandishing a gun. And most importantly, this information is made public so as the bad guys are fully aware they're going to be seen & recorded. THAT becomes the deterrent
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I think that is possible , and it might even be possible to put transponders in guns that activate locators based on cell phone tecnology.
Would gun owners want their guns to be that easily located?
Just the thing if your gun gets stolen , but contrary to the purpose of guns being the resorce of resistance.
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I think that is possible , and it might even be possible to put transponders in guns that activate locators based on cell phone tecnology.
Would gun owners want their guns to be that easily located?
No they wouldn't. Far too easily for that kind of technology, in the hands of a more oppressive Government, to be used for confiscation.....in the name of security and "if it saves just 1 life" mantra. No, I think if we could just focus on identifying a person with a deadly weapon, has the potential for passage and provide the deterrence you're looking for, while not providing Government the tools for easier tracking of the law abiding
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"Very nice, but I really like my SigSauer, and have gotten pretty proficient with it."
That wasn't for you sirs. You don't have the imagination, style, or talent, for a revolver like that.
BSB
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LOL....yea, you're probably right. That's more the revolver for folks who simply get their rocks off at shooting human targets
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A serious revolver. Freedom Arms does really great work.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/freedom-arms-1997-45-lc-pr23938/ (http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/freedom-arms-1997-45-lc-pr23938/)
I do like the type , but the price puts it out of consideration.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Dan-Wesson-Model-15-2-357-Magnum.cfm?gun_id=100347950 (http://www.gunsinternational.com/Dan-Wesson-Model-15-2-357-Magnum.cfm?gun_id=100347950)
I used to have one of these Dan Wesson 357 replaceable barrell revolvers.
I really liked it and the potential for trying diffrent barrell lengths was intreagueing.
Best of all I bought it used and didn't pay too much.
When I needed to sell I got almost all the money back at a Pawn shop.
I have to believe that reasonable quality can be had a a reasonable price.
Early in the history of Guns , dependable guns were possessions of the wealthy only, I think that in the future cheaper guns will grow more dependable .
That has been the trend ;1540 the king can afford the state of the art, 1994 I can afford one of the best.
http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/424574/German-School-16th-century/Wheel-lock-breech-loading-gun-of-King-Henry-VIII-?search_context=%7B%22url%22%3A%22%5C%2Fsearch.aspx%3Fkey%3D%24AMR%26filter%3DCBPOIHV%26sl%3Dgb%22%2C%22filter%22%3A%7B%22filter_text%22%3A%22%24AMR%22%2C%22filter_searchoption_id%22%3A%224%22%2C%22filter_assetstatus_id%22%3A1%2C%22filter_prev_text%22%3A%22%24AMR%22%7D%2C%22num_results%22%3A%22683%22%2C%22sort_order%22%3A%22best_relevance%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22search_assets%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A57%7D (http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/424574/German-School-16th-century/Wheel-lock-breech-loading-gun-of-King-Henry-VIII-?search_context=%7B%22url%22%3A%22%5C%2Fsearch.aspx%3Fkey%3D%24AMR%26filter%3DCBPOIHV%26sl%3Dgb%22%2C%22filter%22%3A%7B%22filter_text%22%3A%22%24AMR%22%2C%22filter_searchoption_id%22%3A%224%22%2C%22filter_assetstatus_id%22%3A1%2C%22filter_prev_text%22%3A%22%24AMR%22%7D%2C%22num_results%22%3A%22683%22%2C%22sort_order%22%3A%22best_relevance%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22search_assets%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A57%7D)
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Eventually, I'll invest in a nice long barreled ornate Peacemaker, for the apparent lack in style I have 8)
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Now
If I could spend a lot , I might get something fancy.
But I don't expect to buy one of these.
SIG-MPX Introduction Video Version 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkUqsUt8Psk#ws)
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When you are brainstorming , ideas that are pretty wild and unrealistic can be thrown in , from some such better ideas and more practical ideas sprout.
Absolutely.......and I don't want to say I'm trying to shoot down the idea of cameras. Merely giving you my 2 cents on how potentially applicable the idea is, from my limited perspective. So don't think any critisim is designed to cease any brainstorming ideas. If anything, to possibly narrow the parameters, perhaps
Let's play with the camera idea a bit....perhaps technology can be improved upon which doesn't focus so much on facial recognition, but more on weapon identification. Let's say a camera spots someone with a gun, identifies it as such, and initiates a program that alerts all the other nearby cameras to lock on to that subject. The software would have to be able to identify a police officer from some person brandishing a gun. And most importantly, this information is made public so as the bad guys are fully aware they're going to be seen & recorded. THAT becomes the deterrent
I think it possible to develop algorythyms that can determine the caricteristic postures of criminals .
Policemen and Criminals often recognise each other , by the alertness that is developed and isn't easy to really hide.
This is pretty stubtle stuff for a dependable machine , but everything that a person can sense a machine can sense also , it just becomes a matter of refinement.
At bank doors and the walkway ramps of airports cameras could determine that you were shifty eyed and flag your person for further attention.
I think there would be a lot of false positives for policemen are often just as alert as their quarry.
But most people go about their day absent from their selves thinking about somewhere they are not, this much hay could be removed from the hay stack.
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How much of a deterrent factor do you think this could be?
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"I do like the type , but the price puts it out of consideration."
You're going to pay for a Freedom Arms revolver no matter, let alone a special order. I don't know of anyone manufacturing firearms today who makes a better single action revolver. They're the best.
Collectors Firearms, where that revolver is, runs a little high. I bought a bisley style, 7and 1/2 inch, super blackhawk in 45 long colt from them several years ago. It had been worked on by Turnbull, had antique ivory grips, beautiful. Because I liked it so much I met their price. But in so doing I paid probably 10% more than it was worth on the open market. For me though, it was worth every penny.
You can take a look at Turnbull's work here:
http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=20793 (http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=20793)
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That made no sense. He asked about brainstorming ideas. I referenced the notion (possible plan) of providing opportunity to incentivise potential CCW holders, with improved access to Safety Courses and firearms training, such as IDPA. So, it was never Plane's idea, as it relates to IDPA
Would you like to provide some ideas to bring about a goal of 5% of the population as being CCW holders? THAT would be Plane's idea
Yes , but I wouldn't mind hearing about some other ideas that would discurage violent crime.
Me too, which is why I asked B, and will be patiently awaiting his input
Hmmmmmmmmmm
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take a look at this baby: http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=36432 (http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=36432)
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So..........no suggestions to contribute towards the point of the thread?
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take a look at this baby: http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=36432 (http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=36432)
There is a very good rifle .
Underneath a baroque work of art.
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How much of a deterrent factor do you think this could be?
Ah well , untill it is well known it is not a deterent at all.
The point of deterence is to break the confidence of a criminal that he will succeed.
So this would have to be a well publicised success before it was an effective deterrant.
I think that mechanical sorting of people ought to cause us qualms, but we could wind up doing it.
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How much of a deterrent factor do you think this could be?
Ah well , untill it is well known it is not a deterent at all.
Which really is the key here. Yes, the technology is necessary, but its goal needs to be one of deterrence
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How much of a deterrent factor do you think this could be?
Ah well , untill it is well known it is not a deterent at all.
Which really is the key here. Yes, the technology is necessary, but its goal needs to be one of deterrence
That is a matter of philosophy , or strategy if you rather.
If the laws are good laws only bad people want to break them, so if you deter crime you merely postpone the inevitable, but if by means secret or public you catch lawbreakers you reduce the number of people who need to be watched.
OR
Lawbreaking is innate to human nature, every criminal detered is a spate of crimes not begun.
Or
Crime happens where the oppurtunity exists , deterance reduces the rate of something that is not possible to eliminate.
So do you want to develop a secret tecnique that harvests the few criminals who neveer know what hits them?
Or do you assume that all of us are criminals but for the effectiveness of deterance and so all advances in deterance are to the good and secret devices are just entrapment of people who might have remained honest a long time if properly deterred?
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Bad guys are bad guys. Evil is evil. The combination is going to do what they're going to do regardless of the laws, which is why the call for MORE gun laws and restrictions is so ridiculous, and why so many mass shootings occur in so-called "gun free zones". Check out how those gun laws in Chicago & DC are doing, 2 of the most strict gun law locations, in the country
Deterrence + Enforcement of current laws = significant decrease in violent crime. One without the other will get you perhaps some measured decrease............maybe
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" There is a very good rifle .
Underneath a baroque work of art."
There's a lot of history behind engraved lever-action Winchesters. They made a movie based on the 1873 "one of one thousand".
BSB
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That made no sense. He asked about brainstorming ideas. I referenced the notion (possible plan) of providing opportunity to incentivise potential CCW holders, with improved access to Safety Courses and firearms training, such as IDPA. So, it was never Plane's idea, as it relates to IDPA
Would you like to provide some ideas to bring about a goal of 5% of the population as being CCW holders? THAT would be Plane's idea
Yes , but I wouldn't mind hearing about some other ideas that would discurage violent crime.
Me too, which is why I asked B, and will be patiently awaiting his input
Hmmmmmmmmmm
Apparently not able to. Ok, moving on
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She did everything right......and she's still dead
WEST HILLS -- Hours after the arrest of a San Fernando Valley teacher for allegedly stabbing his estranged wife to death at her friends' home, witnesses recounted the horrifying aftermath of the attack, when they were unable to save her life as she lay bleeding in the street. | RESTRAINING ORDER: It didn't work for mother of two
Retired photographer Loni Specter watched helplessly Saturday morning as a 43-year-old mother of two, Michelle Ann Kane, took her final gasps. Los Angeles Police Department officials say she was stabbed multiple times outside the home of friends in the 7100 block of Deveron Ridge Road, where she had taken refuge from her husband. Elementary teacher Michael Rodney Kane, 46, was taken into custody Monday without incident shortly after midnight in the Joshua Tree area, officials announced.
Specter said his 20-year-old daughter heard some commotion outside and saw what appeared to be a woman lying in the street with a man kneeling over her Saturday. She then ran back inside and called the rest of the family outside.
"We saw a woman lying in the street with blood flowing downhill," Specter said in a telephone interview. "There were so many stab wounds on her back, in her cheek, in the top of her head, in her sides. ... She was dead, I'm sure, within moments of being attacked."
Specter's wife Julie tried to stop the bleeding with a towel while their son Colin, 25, was doing chest compressions to "try to keep whatever life was in her."
Julie tried to give Kane mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, Specter said, but there was so much blood on Kane's face that it was not possible. Police and paramedics soon arrived, and she was declared dead at the scene.
Specter said Michelle Kane and her two young children were staying with his
The West Hills home where Michelle Kane was allegedly murdered by estranged husband Michael Kane over the weekend is seen on Monday, June 17, 2013. (David Crane/Los Angeles Daily News) next-door neighbor, whom he only knew as Howard, and his family, he said.
Gary Phillips, a neighbor of Howard's, said he saw through his kitchen window Howard's wife come running out of their house screaming "Call 9-1-1" Saturday morning. Phillips said he called the police and saw a man hopping in a car and driving off. He then saw his neighbors, the Specters, running to give the woman aid.
"It's just something no one's prepared for," Phillips said. Howard and his wife "went to his (Michael Kane's) wedding. They were close friends. You never know."
Specter said Howard told him after the incident that he had known the Kanes for many years. Howard also told Specter that Michael Kane came to the door and calmly asked to speak to his wife. When Howard said that wasn't a good idea, Michael then pushed him out of the way, burst through the door and wrestled with him. Kane then pulled out a pocket knife, which Howard tried to take away from him, and then sliced Howard's hand open, Specter said, citing Howard's account. Howard yelled for Michelle to run as fast as she could but the man followed her out and proceeded to finish her off on the street -- about 50 or 60 feet from Howard's front door.
Howard, who was treated at a hospital and released, could not be reached Monday. A man who answered the door at his home declined to talk to a reporter.
Michael Kane, who is employed by the Los Angeles Unified School District, has worked as a teacher since 1997 and has taught since July 2008 at Nestle Avenue Charter Avenue Elementary in Tarzana.
Police identified him as a suspect soon after the stabbing.
After an alert was sent out, San Bernardino County sheriff's officials located the suspect's vehicle Sunday abandoned in a parking lot in the Twentynine Palms/Joshua Tree area, Lt. Warren Jones of the LAPD Topanga Division said. That prompted investigators to focus on that region, where Kane had a relative. San Bernardino County sheriff's conducted a search of the relative's home, but did not find the suspect. But he was later found in a motel in the Joshua Tree area and was taken into custody without incident, he said.
According to a hotel clerk, Michael Kane checked in about 3 p.m. Saturday at the Desert View Motel on Primrose Drive in Yucca Valley, saying he planned to stay for two nights. He handed over a $100 bill and got $10 change, along with the key to Room 112.
"He looked just like a regular person," said the clerk, who refused to give her name. "He was walking around, he went shopping. He walked back and forth to the Walmart," which was less than a mile away. "He didn't look like there was anything wrong."
After he was taken into custody, Kane, who police said lives in either Canoga Park or West Hills, was treated at a medical facility for lacerations and punctures, then taken to the Topanga station and eventually booked for murder at the downtown county men's jail, said Lt. Jones. Kane is expected to be arraigned Wednesday at the Van Nuys Courthouse, Jones said.
He had been transferred to the county jail because of the extent of his injuries and because "they wanted a higher level of medical oversight for him," Jones said. It was not immediately clear if the injuries were sustained during Saturday's alleged attack on his wife or at another time, he said.
A day before her death, Michelle Kane of West Hills had visited the Topanga station and reported that her husband -- from whom she was separated and was in the process of a divorce -- had violated a restraining order, police said.
Her family released a statement Monday calling the incident "a shocking and horrific tragedy."
"Michelle was a wonderful mother who loved her children deeply, and did everything she could to protect them," the statement read. "The family appreciates everyone's thoughts and prayers, and requests that the media please respect their privacy at this very difficult time, while their focus is on Michelle's children."
Her family law attorneys said Monday that Michelle Kane had made multiple pleas to police for protection from her estranged husband.
"We advised Ms. Kane to take all necessary precautions available to her with regard to the restraining order we were able to obtain on her behalf, which she took," said Steve Mindel, managing partner at Feinberg, Mindel, Brandt & Klein, in a written statement. "She went to the police station Friday, twice, and later called again to seek assistance from what she considered an imminent threat to her life and the lives of her children."
Jones said he could not confirm that Kane had also called after visiting the police station to seek assistance from what she considered an imminent threat. Jones did say that had conducted an investigation and completed a lengthy report about the alleged violation of a temporary restraining order. That, however, would go through the court system back to the judge, who granted the original restraining order, he said.
Meantime, neighbors were relieved to hear of the quick arrest.
"I'm happy he's not at large, and I'm sure he'll get what's coming to him," Specter said.
....the only thing left that would have prevented this....a firearm. A CCW in particular (http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_23481179/lausd-teacher-suspected-wifes-west-hills-stabbing-death)
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" There is a very good rifle .
Underneath a baroque work of art."
There's a lot of history behind engraved lever-action Winchesters. They made a movie based on the 1873 "one of one thousand".
BSB
Was that the one with Jimmy Stewart?
Stewart was one of my favorites.
I have a utilitarian preference for my own stuff, but I acknowledge the right and the value to others of art.
All the art I own is within my hands and my head, what I understand is mine , why own the article if I get the point?
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Ok
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So my attitude is going to starve all of the professional artists in the world to death and you say that is OK?
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i would think fancy artwork on rifles would be done on commission versus speculation.
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i would think fancy artwork on rifles would be done on commission versus speculation.
http://www.jimblairengraving.com/firearms (http://www.jimblairengraving.com/firearms)
Looks like it here, I gotta admit that these are pretty things.
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Like I said, some day, I'll invest in a real nice ornate Peacemaker & Henry Rifle combination, to satisfy the apparent need for style, in my repertoire
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Like I said, some day, I'll invest in a real nice ornate Peacemaker & Henry Rifle combination, to satisfy the apparent need for style, in my repertoire
Too pretty to conceal carry?
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This tangent has had nothing to do with the subject at hand ;) My sig will remain the functional non-stylish component to that question
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This tangent has had nothing to do with the subject at hand ;) My sig will remain the functional non-stylish component to that question
I donnknow, I never before thought about guns as accessorys.
Nor even as substrates of artwork.
But I have been looking at examples, very pretty , if I had plenty of money my attitude might be different.
As it is , I admire a well put together and well thought out machine.