DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Plane on October 26, 2014, 03:05:41 AM
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This is a good article , but it let loose one of those ambush adverts that are really annoying.
I hope that the ad is not a feature of the site.
Anyway it seems the results of voter ID are starting to roll in, and very few of the results are complaints.
Almost three quarters of the population like Voter ID/
Where Voter ID requirements have been implemented there was no sign of reduction in minority participation.
Does it seem odd that with no sign at all that voter ID has any negative effect on voter participation, that the Republican party still likes the idea?
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/democrats-losing-long-war-against-voter-id/article/2554195
........ was shocking to voter ID opponents that the Supreme Court’s 6-3 majority decision was written not by a conservative justice but by John Paul Stevens, a liberal. The court held that Indiana’s photo ID law was constitutional and did not “qualify as a substantial burden on the right to vote, or even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting.” Attempts by the NAACP and the American Civil Liberties Union to persuade the Indiana Supreme Court to toss out the voter ID law also failed. Indiana’s law has been in place ever since, with none of the problems that plaintiffs predicted.
It was the same in Georgia. The state’s voter ID law went into effect in 2008 after it was challenged and upheld in both federal and state court. With the law in place, voter turnout has consistently increased, with 65 percent of the black voting-age population casting ballots in 2008, compared with 54.4 percent in 2004. Even without Obama on the ballot, the pattern held: While only 42.9 percent of registered black Georgians voted in 2006, 50.4 percent voted in 2010.
And Tennessee? Yes, another failure for voter ID’s opponents. Tennessee’s law went into effect in 2012. U.S. District Judge J. Ronnie Greer applied the rule set out by the U.S. Supreme Court, noting that “whether the plaintiff likes it or not, Crawford is the controlling legal precedent.”
On the eve of the 2012 general election, South Carolina won a $3.5 million battle to protect its voter ID law against Holder’s efforts to kill it. A three-judge panel dismissed the attorney general’s claim that the law was discriminatory under the Voting Rights Act. The law went into effect with no reports of problems.................
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It has clearly had an an impact on voting. That is why the GOP likes it.
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Almost three quarters of the population like Voter ID/
Where Voter ID requirements have been implemented there was no sign of reduction in minority participation.
So ......what's the huge racist problem that supposedly exists with voter ID again?? The question then becomes, why don't the Democrats like it??
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It has clearly had an an impact on voting. That is why the GOP likes it.
Nope.
Where it has been implemented minority voting has not diminished even slightly.
so...
False alarm there.
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After the election, there will be many stories about how this prevented people from voting.
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Before the election, I'd be far more concerned about the plethora of folks who would be illegally voting
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After the election, there will be many stories about how this prevented people from voting.
Why wait ?
There were already several elections in states requiring ID.
Press was present , poll watchers , everything necessary.
You could be saying "I told You So " already.
Hey , why hasn't the negative effect of ID requirement on elections we have already had made the first page ?
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BINGO!!
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I really like this article.
Even though in-person voter fraud isn’t rampant, it is easy for fraudsters to commit it without getting caught. New York City’s Department of Investigation last year detailed how its undercover agents claimed at 63 polling places to be individuals who were in fact dead, had moved out of town, or who were in jail. In 61 instances, 97 percent of the time, they were allowed to vote. (To avoid skewing results, they voted only for nonexistent write-in candidates.) How did the city’s Board of Elections respond? Did it immediately probe and reform them sloppy procedures? Not at all. It instead demanded that the investigators be prosecuted. Most officials don’t want to admit how vulnerable election systems are, but privately they express worry that close elections could be flipped by fraud.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/democrats-losing-long-war-against-voter-id/article/2554195
.... are discriminatory. Many also say fraud isn’t a serious issue. Rather than fighting such laws, however, they should be working to ensure that everyone can easily obtain an ID.
....the same in Georgia. The state’s voter ID law went into effect in 2008 after it was challenged and upheld in both federal and state court. With the law in place, voter turnout has consistently increased, with 65 percent of the black voting-age population casting ballots in 2008, compared with 54.4 percent in 2004. Even without Obama on the ballot, the pattern held: While only 42.9 percent of registered black Georgians voted in 2006, 50.4 percent voted in 2010.
It isn't a long article , but it answers all the important objections to voter ID quite well.
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The Florida legislature has not gone out of its way to make sure everyone has an ID.
It is run by an assortment of asshole Republicans. One example:the legislature refused to pass a law against wage theft, so that wnen a worker works 50 hours and is paid for 39, he can appeal to a state office and get paid what he is due without getting fired. So Miami-Dade and Broward Counties passed local laws with an office to prevent this sort of evil treatment.
What did the Republican'ts do? They passed a state law banning any of the other 65 counties from passing similar laws.
They for government of the bosses, by the bosses and for the bosses and deserve to perish from this Earth.
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How well does this law work? In the community that enacted it?
If a person worked 50 hours and got paid for 39 the employer is in violation of federal law and there is already a court for enforcing the minimum wage law.
I was not there when this was discussed , but with only what you have told me here , I would have voted against the ordinance because I would not want to spend county money on something that was entirely redundant to what the Feds were already doing.
I had a job like that once , I didn't get fired , the employer left town on payday.
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It is NOT redundant. What happens is the Feds do nothing useful when wage theft is reported. If they do anything, it is to interview the employer and inform him of the complaint. At this point the employee gets fired. Then the Feds do nothing.
The local ordinance is NOT redundant, because the Feds are useless.
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Actually, you're describing the current state of fraudulent voting in this country, whereby the votes are cast, the election is finalized, only to find out later, that the margin of error was exceeded by just enough illegal votes. It's the main reason Al Franken became senator. But the Feds do nothing when actual voter fraud is discovered, AFTER THE FACT, or in the case of the Black Panthers, voters are intimidated.
You're right, the Feds are useless. Best folks obtain a simple ID to take part in something so sacrosanct in this country, that could lead to folks who improperly became elected, like Mr Franken
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It is NOT redundant. What happens is the Feds do nothing useful when wage theft is reported. If they do anything, it is to interview the employer and inform him of the complaint. At this point the employee gets fired. Then the Feds do nothing.
The local ordinance is NOT redundant, because the Feds are useless.
Dang !
That is a very good point!
My unit was visited by OSHA recently, our supervisors were in full funk, no work occurred anywhere near the inspectors.
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Wage theft comes under the NLRB. There is a fix in on the appointment of NLRB officials. In so-called "right to work" states, where the legislature is dominated by Republicans, NLRB appointees are pro-employer and anti-employee. Only in states withh Democratic legislatures and no so-called "right to work" laws are NLRB people pro-worker.
Because we have a Republican dominated legislature and an asshole Republican governor in FL, the workers are screwed. They will never get the wages due them.
If they report wage theft to the NLRB, they will be ratted out by the officials and they will almost certainly get fired, or get their hours cut.
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I accept your posit that the Federal law is less dependable and less useful than local ordinance as a general principal.
Every problem ought to be solved at the lowest level of government possible.
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Well, the Republican't FL legislature has told the people of 65 counties they have no right to have a venue for people who experience wage theft. And this is a big problem here.
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Well, the Republican't FL legislature has told the people of 65 counties they have no right to have a venue for people who experience wage theft. And this is a big problem here.
Well yes!
I think we have some agreement .
If the counties can set wage levels and enforce them better than the state and federal governments , then the state and federal governments ought to get out of their hair and get out of the minimum wage business.
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This is not about minimum wages. This is about WAGE THEFT. Promising to pay a worker and then not paying him as promised.
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This is not about minimum wages. This is about WAGE THEFT. Promising to pay a worker and then not paying him as promised.
This should both break the laws that defend labor contracts and the minimum wage .
So it is prosecutable from the state and federal courts to begin with.
However , if a better monitor and enforcer is the county , then it fits my philosophy to get the larger levels out of the hair of the more competent and more local.
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Something I referenced earlier is coming to fruition, and why such a need for making voting not just sacrosanct, but ONLY to those legally allowed to vote in this country, which voter ID improves. More and more reports are coming out, with possible voter fraud, in states that have races that are razor thin. So thin, that the margain of victory could easily fall within the range of illegal votes cast
Yes, fake ID's can be had, but that's going out of one's way to commit a crime. I'm referring to those here illegally, or ignorant of our laws, who are literally handed ballots, or they're simply automatically mailed, without any proof or reference to the person being legal to vote
The idea that voting should be made easy, ignores the point of just how important voting is. It should not be made easy simply to be easier, so more folks can vote. It should be made easy for those who are legally able to vote...and still breathing.
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Wage theft is a CRIME. It has not one thing to do with ostensible voter fraud.
The issue is how to get the police to prosecute wage theft. MOst of those affected cannot hire a lawyer.
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The issue is actually Voter ID......thus the thread title
But to address your tangent, if there were ANY crime causing some form of hardship to minorities, Civil Liberty lawyers would be over it, like bees on honey
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That is a figment of your warped imagination.
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What is specifically? That civil liberty lawayers wouldn't be surrouding supposed minority crime victims?? they do that all the time, even when there isn't a crime
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Also keep in mind....Police don't "prosecute", they merely enforce the law, when they observe someone breaking it, or arrest someone accused of a crime, if there's enough evidence. It's the DA's office that would "prosecute" criminals.
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Wage theft is a CRIME. It has not one thing to do with ostensible voter fraud.
The issue is how to get the police to prosecute wage theft. MOst of those affected cannot hire a lawyer.
Remember Arizona's governor trying to enforce immigration law?
The courts found against her , State officials shouldn't usurp the enforcement , even when the Feds are not really enforcing the law.
I agree that wage theft is a crime , it isn't a rare crime either, it is a fraud on Federal terms , cheating not only the worker but also the government that was going to withhold income tax.
If it is not enforced much, by the Federal marshals, the IRS or the state revenue officers that could be enforcing it , I have to wonder why not?
The victims of wage theft that I know personally earned money off the books and couldn't carry their complaint to any government agency. This isn't the governments fault, local nor fed.
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Wage theft in Miami is most concentrated in construction, the needle trade, old folks homes, restaurants and hotels. A lot of the workers are undocumented, many are here legally but know nothing of the laws. The EOC and the NLRB have only a few Spanish speaking agents, and the ones they have are Cubans, who typically only care about other Cubans. Complaints get referred to Spanish speaking agents who do nothing, and phoine calls go to them and are answered by machines that tell the caller that the mailbox is full, call back later. The County is somewhat more effective, I hear, and the legislature is opposed to the State or the other 65 counties doing anything, because of intense lobbying from Fanjul and the other Big Sugar producers, who contract buses of Jamaicans and Haitians and don't want any complaints. There is not a type of fraud that contractors have not committed. Every once in a while someone does an expose and they write it up in the paper. Occasionally a flunky goes to jail.
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This makes the minimum wage law seem ineffective.
In a way that I hadn't considered much.
There is an underground economy here too, but I don't know how a county government would be effective at reigning it in .
What should the Feds be doing that is easier for the locals to do?
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I do not see this as a matter of which is better.
The least corrupt is better. County governments can be horribly corrupt. The same is true of state governments.
We need an ombudsman system like Sweden, and honest consumer protection agencies focused on the average person.
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It is better not to have duplication of effort.
So which is more competent to perform the function?
Whichever is the right one for the job should have the entire job.
If the Federal system of minimum wages is difficult to enforce , it might be better to ditch it and use state or city/county ordinances, whichever is actually more effective.
This would fit well with another fact , the cost of living is not even nationwide , the best wage for one state might be too high for its neighbor on one side and too low for its neighbor on the other, a nationwide minimum wage has never really been a good idea.
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It's hard to keep track of who hits more commentary homers, Krauthammer or Sowell. They've both produced 2 outstanding commentaries with their latest, but I'll share Sowell's here
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Voter Fraud and Voter I.D.
One of the biggest voter frauds may be the idea promoted by Attorney General Eric Holder and others that there is no voter fraud, that laws requiring voters to have a photo identification are just attempts to suppress black voting.
Reporter John Fund has written three books on voter fraud and a recent survey by Old Dominion University indicates that there are more than a million registered voters who are not citizens, and who therefore are not legally entitled to vote.
The most devastating account of voter fraud may be in the book "Injustice" by J. Christian Adams. He was a Justice Department attorney, who detailed with inside knowledge the voter frauds known to the Justice Department, and ignored by Attorney General Holder and Company.
One of these frauds involved sending out absentee ballots to people who had never asked for them. Then a political operator would show up -- uninvited -- the day the ballots arrived and "help" the voter to fill them out. Sometimes the intruders simply took the ballots, filled them out and forged the signatures of the voters.
These were illegal votes for Democrats, which may well be why Eric Holder sees no evil, hears no evil and speaks no evil.
As for race-based "voter suppression," amid all the political hysteria, how many hard facts have you heard? Probably none that supports that claim. Widely available free photo identification cards mean that poverty is no barrier to voting.
Since blacks and whites both have to show photo I.D. for everything from cashing checks to getting on a plane, why has requiring a photo I.D. for voting caused such shrill outcries?
Unfortunately, this is part of the cynical politics of promoting as much racial polarization and paranoia as possible, in hopes of getting more black voters to turn out to vote for the Democrats.
Nothing is too gross when promoting racial hysteria in an election year. Veteran Democrat Congressman Charlie Rangel from Harlem declared that Republicans "don't disagree -- they hate!" According to Rangel, "Some of them believe that slavery isn't over and that they won the Civil War!"
Republicans did win the Civil War. That's why there is no more slavery. It was a Republican president who issued the Emancipation Proclamation. It was a Republican-controlled Congress that voted for the 13th Amendment, outlawing slavery.
In the 1960s, a higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats voted for the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. If we are going to talk about history, let's at least get the facts right.
Only an utter ignorance of history, in this era of dumbed-down education, could allow demagogues like Rangel to get away with the absurdities that abound in election year politics.
Images of lynching and Jim Crow laws that made blacks sit in the back of buses are used against Republicans, even though the "solid South" was solidly controlled by Democrats during that era.
Bull Connor, who turned police dogs and fire hoses on civil rights demonstrators, was a Democrat. So were other Southern segregationists. In those days, you could go hundreds of miles through the Jim Crow South without seeing a single Republican official. That is why political observers called it "the solid South."
Perhaps the biggest voter fraud of all is the fraud against black voters, by telling them bogey man stories, in order to try to get them to come out on election day to vote for Democrats.
The most cynical of these bogey man ploys is Attorney General Holder's threats of legal action against schools that discipline a "disproportionate" number of black boys. Unless you believe that black boys cannot possibly be misbehaving more often than Asian American girls, what does this political numbers game accomplish?
It creates another racial grievance, allowing Democrats like Holder to pose as rescuers of blacks from racist dangers. The real danger is allowing disruptive students in ghetto schools to destroy the education of other black students -- in a world where education is the only hope that most ghetto youngsters have for a better life.
Sacrificing these young people's futures, in hopes of gaining some additional black votes today, is as cynical and fraudulent as it gets.