DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on June 24, 2015, 04:50:50 PM

Title: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 24, 2015, 04:50:50 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912 (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912)
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on June 24, 2015, 07:10:19 PM
more evidence that it is not the guns!

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on June 24, 2015, 09:22:06 PM
  That is a very good article , but I am disappointed to learn that in Switzerland a maniac can find gun free zones to wreak mayhem in.

     Central in this article is the assertion that having practically 100% registration does not prevent many crimes.
Quote
"There is a lack there," admits Mr Suter. "The systems are not connected. But today they are really on their way to fitting all the information together, and there is not a single legal gun here which is unregistered. But a national register does not necessarily avoid tragedy - 100% control you cannot organise. It's impossible."

Since about half of the guns there were either issued by the government or bought with government subsidy , you would expect that registration would be easier there than anywhere.


Laugh line
Quote
Yet despite the prevalence of firearms, violent gun-related street crime is extremely rare in Switzerland.
  Despite?  I don't think this word means what the author thinks it does.


I agree with this guy
Quote
Hermann Suter, vice-president of the Swiss lobbying group Pro Tell, is infuriated by calls that the Swiss military should give up their guns and store them in a central arsenal.

"It is a question of trust between the state and the citizen. The citizen is not just a citizen, he is also a soldier, " he reminds me. "The gun at home is the best way to avoid dictatorships - only dictators take arms away from the citizens."
  This is the central intent of the second amendment, in this respect getting more like Switzerland would be a winner. Swiss Democracy is much older than our own and they have the method down pat.
          I learn that the Swiss citizen army is a lot smaller than it used to be , and that the government is keeping most of the ammunition away from the rifles. Is this related to the small increase in massacres?Is the shooting that leads this article a result of the harsher gun control that the Swiss are submitted to now?



      This chart is mysterious,(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/65786000/gif/_65786660_gun_homicides304.gif)

What sort of laws does Mexico need? They must be closing in on Chicago.


     I learn that the Swiss citizen army is a lot smaller than it used to be , and that the government is keeping most of the ammunition away from the rifles. Is this related to the small increase in massacres?
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 24, 2015, 10:57:47 PM
Switzerland has one seventh the number of gun deaths.
How much of this is due to Swiss attitudes and to the greater regulations does not seem to be known, and perhaps is not knowable.

But one seventh is definitely better.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on June 24, 2015, 11:25:46 PM


But one seventh is definitely better.

   Yes , but they don't have as many guns available to the public as they used to , and there is a small spate of shootings in gun free zones.

   Given time , perhaps they will reduce their guns enough to have several times our murder rate.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 25, 2015, 12:34:56 PM
Perhaps pigs will aviate.
Get fucking serious.

The Swiss require gun owners to be responsible.
The Swiss require guns to be registered.
The Swiss have ONE SEVENTH the number of shootings we do.

The reason that there are so many guns in Mexico is that Americans, with lax gun laws, sell them to make a buck.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 25, 2015, 02:24:02 PM
We have, in no way, "lax gun laws".  I just purchased an accurized Colt AR-15, and had to go thru multiple bureaucratic hoops, background check, and waiting period

You confuse/conflate the legal responsible gun owner, with the illegal bad gun nut........again
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 25, 2015, 03:01:57 PM
I am glad to hear that it is difficult to buy a gun.

But unless there is a National Gun Registry, we have what anyone with any knowledge of gun laws in the First Word Countries would call lax gun laws.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 25, 2015, 03:06:18 PM
I am glad to hear that it is difficult to buy a gun.

Which refutes/debunks the notion that we have laxed gun laws, and supposed "ease of getting a gun"


But unless there is a National Gun Registry, we have what anyone with any knowledge of gun laws in the First Word Countries would call lax gun laws.

That however runs counter to the whole concept of the 2nd amendment.  Don't like it....tough.  But that still deosn't make purchasing a firearm "lax" in this country......unless you do it illegally of course, in which case no amount of "registering" would absolve that, since when doing it illegally, they're not registering their gun to begin with
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 25, 2015, 03:08:39 PM
The Federal government has the power to have a National Gun Registry. They can limit a large number of firearms as it is.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 25, 2015, 03:09:40 PM
The Federal Government has the power to impose martial law.  Doesn't make it right or even legal, under our Constitution
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 25, 2015, 03:26:48 PM
I say, pass a law requiring gun registration of all new guns and all gun sales, and let the Supremes decide.

One small step to prevent these mass shootings.
I realize you think that mass shootings are a small price to pay so fools like Zimmerman and you can amass personal arsenals, but that is perhaps because no one you know has been shot. I attribute this to your lack of imagination. You are singularly uncreative and incapable of imagining anything other than a lack of symmetry in News items.
 
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 25, 2015, 03:38:19 PM
And I say, not only are you dead wrong, but I also say we abide by our rule of law & Constitution.  Otherwise we are no better than some 3rd world dictatorship
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 25, 2015, 06:30:17 PM
Yeah, the Swiss are a Third World dictatorship. Like the English, the Germans, all the rest of the Western Europeans that do not have to worry about some right wing nut case shooting them in Church, at the Mall, in their universities,  and at the movies.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 25, 2015, 06:52:58 PM
Not talking about the Swiss, as they aren't run by our rule of law & Constitution.  Many of their policies & practices would be ruled unconstitutional in this country.  You don't like it?, tough.  Amend it.  The one thing you don't do is ignore the law you don't like
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 25, 2015, 07:28:19 PM
Like you know diddley about the law.

The Swiss are wiser than we are. They are no less free, and seven times safer from bad gun nuts.

Stupidity has a price, I know. But you enjoy stupid.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 25, 2015, 08:23:01 PM
Much like the Constitution, I apparently know exponentially more about the law, than you do.  But, I'll concede that you do know exponentially more spanish than I.  Hope that makes you feel better
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 25, 2015, 09:40:56 PM
I know exponentially more about damned near everything than you.

This includes the history of this country. My first ancestor arrived in Massachusetts in 1635. And at least one Choctaw was already here before that.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on June 25, 2015, 11:10:44 PM


The Swiss require gun owners to be responsible.
Yes this I like about them.
Quote
The Swiss require guns to be registered.
Even in the article you brought it was stated that the registration is a new thing and is impossible to do a complete job of . The murder rate in Switzerland was low an hundred years before their regulations tightened up.
Quote
The Swiss have ONE SEVENTH the number of shootings we do.
We probably do have things to learn from them, but I note that there, as here, massacres happen more in gun free zones than in any other sort of venue. Lets not learn what we wish they were instead of what they are.
Quote
 

The reason that there are so many guns in Mexico is that Americans, with lax gun laws, sell them to make a buck.
  Yes , something that would never happen if the US had tougher laws, why not?
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 26, 2015, 12:24:56 AM
I know exponentially more about damned near everything than you.

You're 99% wrong opinion has been measured, weighed, and found wanting.  Case in point, your ancestry is completely irrelevant, when the topic is about the Constitution & rule of law.  You could be descended from Jesus Christ himself.  That "might" make your opinion regarding Christianity a tad more credible, but not anything to do with the history of this country, how it came to be, and specifically the intention of the founders, as chronicled in both the Federalist papers & solidified in the Bill of Rights of the Constitution
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 26, 2015, 12:28:28 AM
The Federalist Papers have no real standing in law. No citizen ever voted on one damned thing in the Federalist Papers.

The progress and welfare of the people of this country are much more important to me than the constitution.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 26, 2015, 12:50:29 AM
The Federalist Papers have no real standing in law.

I never said they did, Dr deflection.  They do demonstrate the Founders' intentions however, and solidified that in the Constitution, which IS STANDING IN LAW


The progress and welfare of the people of this country are much more important to me than the constitution.

And there, ladies & gentlemen, is precisely why this country is heading into the toilet
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 26, 2015, 11:18:57 AM
Yeah, they thought slavery was really nifty as well.

You are the one that brings up the Federalist Papers, which have nothing whatever to say about the matter at hand, and therefore you are the one deflecting.

Go deflect yourself, sirs.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 26, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
Yeah, they thought slavery was really nifty as well.

And the Constitution was AMENDED to make it clear that it was no longer thought of as "nifty"


You are the one that brings up the Federalist Papers, which have nothing whatever to say about the matter at hand, and therefore you are the one deflecting.

It had everything to do with demonstrating the intention of the Founders, which would include how there was nothing in their that discussed a need for everyone to be armed, merely so they could hunt or track down slaves.  I realize you have this overt need to avoid points being made, but my bringing up the Federalist papers is intimately connected to both the clear intent of the Constitution, and the fact that the latter is is THE LAW OF THE LAND.  You don't like it, tough AMBE 

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 26, 2015, 12:28:00 PM
The Federalist Papers  are just some crap that right wingers like to mention when they say stupid shit.
It is not like you have actually READ them.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 26, 2015, 01:27:43 PM
LOL...apparently I've read far more than you have.  Point being, they were directly referencing the issue regarding the Constitution, and the intent of the Founders as they established our LAWS (which includes how those laws could be amended).  Hardly a deflection, oh master of deflection.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 26, 2015, 02:15:06 PM
Why not enact the laws that the Swiss have, and see if six-sevenths of gun deaths are avoided?
It would not turn this into a "Third World Country".
Switzerland is clearly a first world country which has its share of gun nuts and far fewer gun deaths.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 26, 2015, 02:30:41 PM
Because we're not the Swiss, and we already have the mechanisms to enact laws in THIS country.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 26, 2015, 03:42:44 PM
No, we don't.

If we did, nine people would have been alive today.
 The Swiss rate for gun deaths is SEVEN TIMES higher than the US rate. That is 85.7% MORE here than in the Land of Heidi and world-class yodeling and holey cheese.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 26, 2015, 04:26:29 PM
No, we don't.

Yes, we do


If we did, nine people would have been alive today.

Because you know for a fact, that Roof wouldn't have been able to acquire a blackmarket firearm, and NOT without violating our laws & Constitution.  There are people dying every day, and yet upwards of TEN TIMES more people saved in this country, using a firearm.  That'd be as many as 90 lives that were saved, when those 9 were murdered

NO AMOUNT OF BANNING GUNS will prevent evil people from killing.  And until OUR Constitution is amended, which IT CAN BE, people have a legal, not to mention the constitutional right to protect themselves with a gun

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 26, 2015, 07:06:18 PM
That is total bullshit.  There is no proof of your crap.

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 26, 2015, 07:13:47 PM
Actually there is.  It's called the FBI

Bottom line however, is that in this country, as opposed to "the Swiss", Firearms isn't just some mandate by the Government, it's Constitutional right, as legally protected as your free speech
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 26, 2015, 09:08:53 PM
Actually there isn't.
If someone scares an armed burglar with a gun, they don't always report it.
The FBI statistics you crow about are invalid to the case you are making, and don't count.

There still are SEVEN TIMES MORE gun crimes in the US than in Switzerland.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 26, 2015, 09:17:43 PM
Actually there is, regardless of how deep you want to bury your head in the sand with that reality & FBI facts

If someone comes at you with a knife and you point a gun at him, he is very unlikely to keep coming, and far more likely to head in the other direction, perhaps in some haste, if he has a brain in his head. Only if he is an idiot are you likely to have to pull the trigger. And if he is an idiot with a knife coming after you, you had better have a trigger to pull.
 
Surveys of American gun owners have found that 4 to 6 percent reported using a gun in self-defense within the previous five years. That is not a very high percentage but, in a country with 300 million people, that works out to hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns per year.
 
Yet we almost never hear about these hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns from the media, which will report the killing of a dozen people endlessly around the clock. 

TEN TIMES MORE LIVES SAVED WITH A GUN in the U.S. that those killed with a gun, in the U.S.  Hell, more children die in bathtub accidents, than shooting accidents

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 26, 2015, 10:00:11 PM
There are no accurate statistics on lives saved with guns.
That is just horseshit.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on June 26, 2015, 10:25:57 PM
Why not enact the laws that the Swiss have, and see if six-sevenths of gun deaths are avoided?
It would not turn this into a "Third World Country".
Switzerland is clearly a first world country which has its share of gun nuts and far fewer gun deaths.

Is it a matter of the law?

Or is it more the general attitude and expectation of the public at large that is different?

We can change the law , and we can change the knowledge and attitude of the people , or both even , but which would be most effective?

If the Law was really that effective Chicago would be one of the safest Cities in the world.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on June 26, 2015, 10:28:49 PM
There are no accurate statistics on lives saved with guns.
That is just horseshit.

  Everyone knows a few anecdotes of that nature.

   There may be no reliable means of tabulation , but this results in an underestimate , not an over estimate.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 27, 2015, 12:08:24 AM
There are no accurate statistics on lives saved with guns.
That is just horseshit.

That is just FACT.   Just demonstrated some.  If a life is perceived at risk, it is in fact a life saved, if the person doesn't die, by whatever means they used to prevent said injury/death. 

But by all means, keep head firmly planted in sand
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 27, 2015, 02:45:06 PM
You are clueless and just like Fox Mulder, you WANT to believe.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 27, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
I don't have to believe anything......like hard core liberals are required.  I just have to be able to read & do math
- a little over 30,000 gun related murders in the U.S., on an annual basis
- a LOW ball figure of 200,000 cases where a gun was used to defend oneself, on an annual basis.  Other polls cite upwards of a million uses annually.  But let's go with the low ball figure

200,000 / 30,000 = 6.7

Well lookie there, that magic 7 TIMES number, if we round up.  In this country, for every life lost at the hands of gun violence, 7 were saved.  And that's using the low ball figure of 200,000. 

Perhaps you should have focused more on your math skills than Spanish
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 27, 2015, 06:35:24 PM
Come off it, you do not know shit. You are even incapable to the guy standing next to shit.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 27, 2015, 07:12:28 PM
Yet we almost never hear about these hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns from the media, which will report the killing of a dozen people endlessly around the clock.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS???

I doubt that most of these are actually reported, which means that the FBI does not know about them, either.

Guns ate the favored means of violence in the US. This is untrue of countries with stricter gun laws and many, may fewer guns.

I do not believe what you call FBI statistics. I do not believe this HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS crap, either. I think you are brainwashed, irrational and obsessed and I do not believe you and I doubt that I ever will.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 27, 2015, 08:56:17 PM
YES, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEFENDING ONESELF WITH A FIREARM, ANNUALLY, IN THE UNITED STATES.  So its a moot point if guns are a "favored means of violence", since apparently its at minimum a 7xTIMES favored means of defending oneself.  Although most defensive uses of guns do not involve actually shooting, nevertheless the total number of criminals killed by armed private citizens runs into the thousands per year. A gun can also come in handy if a pit bull or some other dangerous animal is after you or your child.

The painful reality that the left would have us ignore, is that regardless of what we do or don't do about gun control laws, there will be innocent people killed by guns. We can then look at hard facts in order to decide how we can minimize the number of needless deaths.  In this country, exponentially far more lives are saved using a gun than those taken by one.  That's just a fact in this country

So, be my guest, and keep sticking the head in the sand and don't believe the facts.   What's that old saying?.....facts to a die-hard liberal, like kryptonite to Superman.  My goal has never been to try and get you to believe me.  My efforts are to simply produce cogent debate, provide facts and common sense to irrational leftist ideological tripe, and highlight hypocrisy when it rears its ugly head.  I truly appreciate your efforts in helping me along those lines
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: kimba1 on June 28, 2015, 01:00:11 AM
It's quite unfair to compare america to switzerland. Thiers hardly anything similiar about the two.i've been thier and i seen nothing familiar about the place. A small multi-lingual country with a homogenized culture with a differing economy. Nobody smiles there. But thier definately better looking than us.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 28, 2015, 01:20:08 AM
You're absolutely correct, Kimba. 
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 28, 2015, 10:37:20 AM
Perhaps the Swiss are better looking than sirs.

The ones I know are also a LOT SMARTER.

Again, I am not saying that the US should become Switzerland, just that if the US adopted Swiss gun control, we could expect to see fewer Gun Nut Massacres. It certainly would not cause more of them.

Should a majority of Americans tolerate bimonthly massacres in order to support guns in the hands of morons who should never be allowed to touch a gun?

I do not think so.

And no, more guns make no one safer. If sirs owns fifty guns we are no safer than if he owns one or seventeen. He is a Useless Gun Nut, and protects no one.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 28, 2015, 12:55:28 PM
Should a majority of Americans suffer 7x more death, just to appease the conscience of supposed know-it-all leftists, trying to unfairly compare our country to the Swiss?

I think not

Not to mention the myth of "bimonthly massacres" and protecting no one.  Anyone & everyone around me is being protected at any given time.  But when all you have is lying and the emotion of using a tragedy in your quiver of dialog, to push an ideological socialist agenda, that's what you get...the sacrificing of so many more potential deaths to bring about their Utopian fascist/socialist pipe-dream of a society
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 28, 2015, 01:18:25 PM
You protect no one, except yourself, when actually wearing or carrying a loaded gun.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 28, 2015, 01:27:52 PM
Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  Anyone & EVERYONE immediately near me has a level of protection they would not otherwise have.  Sorry to burst that imaginary bubble as well
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 28, 2015, 03:00:42 PM
That is only when you are armed and properly dangerous.
I doubt that is most of the time.

If you had fifty guns, you would be no more dangerous than if you had only two.

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 28, 2015, 03:06:45 PM
That is only when you are armed and properly dangerous.
I doubt that is most of the time.

Doubt all you want.  That's what makes it a deterrent, since no one else knows.  And fyi, I only carry one at a time.  Its not practical or necessary to me, for any more than that.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on June 29, 2015, 07:22:29 PM
  As a thought experiment :

   Lets imagine doubling the number of gun free zones in the US.

    I don't think that this would cause an immediate doubling of massacres.

      For this reason; even though gun free zones are just as needed for a massacre to happen as the guns are, there are many gun free zones that go unused by murderous maniacs every year, so there must already be plenty of gun free zones  for each potential murderer to choose between.

      So doubling the number of gun free zones might make no impact on public safety , or a very small difference as murderers might enjoy slightly greater convenience.

      Cutting the number of gun free zones in half might for the same reasons have little impact , half as many as we now have would still be many more venues for mayhem than we have madmen ready to use them.

       These guys are fewer than one in a million of us , probably by a factor of five or more, not enough to fill a single prison. This suggests that the scarce resource that could be curtailed most profitably is the guy willing to commit such a crime. I wish this were really simple , but the rare individual ready to commit mass murder is not obvious to detection and their small numbers make them hard to find not like a needle in a hay stack , but like a needle in a needle stack.

        The simplest feasible means of making a large reduction in mass murder might be the 100% elimination of one of the three requirements. Guns , collections of helpless victims, or miscreants of this peculiar type.

        I suggest that for the USA the simplest and cheapest part of this triangle to eliminate would be gun free zones. This might not reduce the number of miscreants nor  disarm them , but whatever fraction of them are cowardly would be out of the game .
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: kimba1 on June 30, 2015, 06:16:26 AM
S.f. schools i think are all gun free zones and dont recall any incidents. I think we have way less knowledge on this subject. Maybe its none of these factors.  As i get olders i notice we all tends to assume we know things and refuse to research on certain matters. Guns maybe one of them. I tend agree since both sides quickly are blaming the other on this subject. The very tragic downside is while these opinions fly people are still at risk.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 30, 2015, 09:59:45 AM
Allowing people to carry guns everywhere is insanity.  Guns in college dorms, guns in bars, guns in churches, guns everywhere.
That is surely going to lead to even more massacres.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 30, 2015, 10:02:25 AM
Not if they're in law abiding responsible gun owners' hands.  Quite the opposite in fact
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 30, 2015, 10:07:50 AM
Then gun owners have to be registered and vetted far better than we do now.
Not all gun owners are responsible and some of those who are get drunk or high or get road rage and such.
You want even nutjobs like Zimmerman to run about packing heat everywhere.

Rest easy, sirs, they will not take your beloved guns away and the massacres will continue.
A small price to pay for your sense of satisfaction.\

Nonetheless, the more guns are out there, the more people are gonna get shot.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 30, 2015, 11:50:16 AM
No, they don't, and you're right, the Government won't be confiscating our guns, since we won't be registering them for the Federal Government to track which law abiding gun owers have them
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 30, 2015, 02:11:38 PM
Next time we have another mass murder, you will say the same stupid crap. Why? Because you are stupid, dumber than a sack of hammers.

More guns will always result in more people shot, unless there is a greater effort to control who owns guns.
And the fault will be idiots like you.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 30, 2015, 02:23:43 PM
..and next time we do have an infrequent mass murder, I'll again remind you that at MINIMUM, SEVEN TIMES MORE LIVES SAVED, with that same gun.  Why?...because you don't care who or how many more people dies, so long as your prescious socialist/fascist agenda is pushed forward

Ignorance is indeed the cornerstone of liberal think
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 30, 2015, 05:19:54 PM
What bullcrap.

Mass murders in the US happen about every two months.

More guns mean more people get shot.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 30, 2015, 05:35:04 PM
One liberal's bullcrap is the rest of the world's truth.  In this country, more guns in the law abiding hands means more lives saved than those taken.  It gives me a certain sense of relief knowing that exponentially more lives are saved, because of people like me, compared to all those extra deaths at the hands and policies of of people like yourself, if you had your way
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 30, 2015, 06:24:07 PM
more guns = more gun violence

You have not saved one fucking life and you never will.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on June 30, 2015, 07:10:52 PM
MORE GUNS IN LAW ABIDING HANDS = MORE LIVES SAVED IN THE UNITED STATES THAN TAKEN BY A GUN


And hopefully I'll never be in a situation where I have to save a life, since that's not a goal.  But if I am, at least I'll be ready and have the appropriate tool for it
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on June 30, 2015, 07:54:47 PM
Quote
Lakewood Church told KHOU-TV that a number of their volunteer ushers are also law enforcement officials. Those officials are apparently armed during the services so that they can react to anything like what happened Sunday.

Eaglin said he's thankful for the quick response of the Lakewood Church security.

"For a second there I started thinking about the church shooting that happened and I was thinking 'Oh God something bad is about to happen' but they were real quick," he said.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/06/29/pastor-joel-osteen-heckled-lakewood-church/29469585/


Not a big incident , but this is a very big Church, it would be silly to try to make it a gun free zone, better, rather make it an incident ready zone.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on June 30, 2015, 08:09:31 PM
MORE GUNS IN LAW ABIDING HANDS = MORE LIVES SAVED IN THE UNITED STATES THAN TAKEN BY A GUN


And hopefully I'll never be in a situation where I have to save a life, since that's not a goal.  But if I am, at least I'll be ready and have the appropriate tool for it

     I am considering a gentle action.
     Perhaps telling establishments that request Patrons be unarmed that I cannot be a patron.
     Not because I was ever before armed there , but that the policy of gun free zone is attractive to murderous persons and is therefore an unacceptable decrease in my safety as long as I am exposed to the gun free environment.

       I don't suppose that anyone would consider a spill of honey on a tabletop would be a good defense or repellant to bees, so how is an advertised gun free zone supposed to reduce the chance of attack by gun toting goon?
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 01, 2015, 09:02:36 AM
If guys like Zimmerman, a freelance self-appointed vigilante, is a law abiding citizen, then this is just rot.

As it stands, any nut can get a gun, and the police cannot even trace it, because unlike in Switzerland, there is no registry to search.

The more guns there are, period, the more people will get shot, period. People die, their guns remain, and many will fall into the hands of all sorts of nutjobs.
It=f you cannot understand this, you are too fucking stupid to dress yourself.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 01, 2015, 10:03:06 AM
Zimmerman was an anomaly, and hardly the poster-child for those who are legally allowed to carry a firearm.  Nor was it any kind of "massacre".  Notice how many stories similar to Zimmerman occurred prior to that event....and since.  Like zero

As it stands, registering does squat to prevent any of your so-called all too frequent massacres, which supposedly is what you're all up in arms about. 

The more guns in LAW ABIDING HANDS, THE MORE LIVES SAVED, than those taken......PERIOD....END OF SENTENCE.   And if you're all bent out of shape that bad gun nuts might get shot....THAT'S A GOOD THING. It=f you cannot understand this, you are too fucking stupid to dress yourself.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 01, 2015, 08:04:28 PM
If guys like Zimmerman, a freelance self-appointed vigilante, is a law abiding citizen, then this is just rot.

As it stands, any nut can get a gun, and the police cannot even trace it, because unlike in Switzerland, there is no registry to search.

The more guns there are, period, the more people will get shot, period. People die, their guns remain, and many will fall into the hands of all sorts of nutjobs.
It=f you cannot understand this, you are too fucking stupid to dress yourself.

   I don't think Mr. Zimmerman ever broke a law , and I can't be certain , but it does not seem as though he is a racist nor has ever assaulted anyone. He seems rather to have been the focus of which hunting.

     Now he might be too unpleasant to make a friend of , but he still has a right to live , which right he is enjoying thanks to his having a gun.

       Do you think a knife would have been enough? If it were you,.. If another person were trying earnestly to break your head , would you knife them , shoot them , use whatever weapon was ready to hand?

   You may often repeat your asserted opinion, but it is not anything like a proven fact that every gun in circulation must be used to harm someone. What you are thinking of is Chekov's gun.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 02, 2015, 08:38:54 AM
Zimmerman has the right to live, but unarmed. Wait and see, he is not likely to die of natural causes.

All he had to do was keep his fucking car moving. He was a hotheaded idiot looking for trouble and might have stayed in his car if he was not out looking for trouble with his goddamned gun.

I don't think for one minute that Switzerland would allow this stupid hothead to own a gun.

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 02, 2015, 10:23:23 AM
Zimmerman has the right to live, but unarmed.

Not in this country.....he has every right to defend himself with a firearm as well, the same as your right to spew such irrational vitriol

But notice how easily the left will abolish a sacred right they simply don't like.  Thank God for our Constitution
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 02, 2015, 11:25:57 AM
God did not write the Constitution, you insufferable twit.
Your right to a gun is not "sacred" God did not even invent your fucking guns.

Twisted asshole.

More guns means more people get shot.
And you are the enabler. 

People who willingly cornhole one another are no threat to society.
Assholes like Zimmerman are demonstrably a threat.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 02, 2015, 01:17:18 PM
God did not write the Constitution, you insufferable twit.

It's an inalienable right, you ignorant baffoon.  Our right to defend ourselves with a firearm is JUST as sacred as your right to claim it isn't

More guns in law abiding hands means more lives saved than taken, you motheyed gumsmacker

But should we be surprised at just how easily the left would deny us our rights, while at the same time putting exponentially more people at risk for injury & death at the hands of a bad gun nut, WHO WOULDN'T BE ADHERING TO ANY LAWS TO BEGIN WITH

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 02, 2015, 02:01:28 PM
Sacred?  Do you WORSHIP gun ownership? Do you have a little altar in your home where you burn incense to your firearms? You are a real hoot, sirs.

Sean Hannity with a prefrontal lobotomy could not be more an object of so much ridicule and yes, even pity.

What is this "inalienable right" shit?  Life Liberty and the Pursuit if Happiness is hardy the same thing as Life, and the Liberty to pursue suspicious Negroes in your gated community.

God did not bestow the right to gun ownership on any human being. If that was part of his plan, he surely would have provided Adam and Eve with Glocks, Colts or Winchesters. God does not give a shit about your gun ownership. There is nothing sacred about owning a gun.

Scary, perhaps, but not sacred.

 
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 02, 2015, 02:12:14 PM
Sacred?  Do you WORSHIP gun ownership?

No more than I WORSHIP free speech     ::)
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 02, 2015, 03:07:21 PM
Your speech endangers no one.
When you are the Late sirs, you have no ideas what your guns might be endangering.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 02, 2015, 03:40:42 PM
Sure it can.  Many a riot have been instigated by nothing more than speech.  Much of that speech however is defended as being a Constitutional protection.   When a firearm is used negligently or criminally to hurt or kill, that right is forfeited.   UNTIL that time however,  the right to defend oneself with a firearm is as sacred as your right to say it isn't
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 02, 2015, 03:44:44 PM
Zimmerman has the right to live, but unarmed. Wait and see, he is not likely to die of natural causes.



Without his gun he would be dead already.
Why begrudge him his life?

Do you really maintain that walking around the streets of his own neighborhood should be a capitol offense?

If he had been unarmed , that is how it would have been.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 02, 2015, 04:27:43 PM
I really maintain that all Zimmerman needed to do was just keep driving his truck and not stop to interrogate Martin, being as (1) Martin was doing nothing illegal and (2) even if he were, this is a job for the real cops, not some self-appointed vigilante.

I suggest that having the gun with him caused him to act belligerently.  Both Martin and Zimmerman were out of line, of course, but it was Martin who ended up dead.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 02, 2015, 05:33:22 PM
  You mean that getting out of his car was a crime worthy of death?

Neither you nor I know his level of belligerence, but what could he have said that  would make killing him a good idea?
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 02, 2015, 05:59:43 PM
It would have been better off for both Zimmerman and Martin had Zimmerman just kept on a-driving. No laws were being broken, he had no reason to bother Martin.
Zimmerman was the older, and therefore he should have been the most responsible.

Both of these guys behaved like morons, of course.

It is never a good idea to kill anyone. There was no war going on there.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 02, 2015, 06:40:02 PM
It would have been better off for both Zimmerman and Martin had Zimmerman just kept on a-driving. No laws were being broken, he had no reason to bother Martin.

Neither did Mr Martin have any justification for beating Mr. Zimmerman this is not even. bothering someone with unwelcome presence is an order of magnitude less malicious than is an attempt to crack a persons skull.
Quote
Zimmerman was the older, and therefore he should have been the most responsible.
Even so. he was never outside his rights to walk , not outside his rights to speak. Why would Mr. Martin be within his rights to throw Mr. Zimmerman down and beat him even a little?
Quote

Both of these guys behaved like morons, of course.
The fault is not evenly distributed , both had cell phones , both felt suspicious, one of them called 911, the other seems to have set up an ambush.
Quote
It is never a good idea to kill anyone. There was no war going on there.
Which one are you referring to?

It is a good idea to avoid violence as long as there is a better choice .

By the time Mr. Zimmerman's gun became involved Mr. Zimmerman was on his back and being beaten, was he at this point unreasonable to be worried about his being killed?
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 03, 2015, 12:34:19 PM
There was nothing that either Martin or Zimmerman did that was not incredibly stupid. The fact that it was not illegal is hardly the point. I am not talking about legal or illegal, I am not discussing the rights of anyone. The ACTIONS are what count, and both of them acted stupidly and both would have been better off had they used their brains instead of playing macho man games. Zimmerman was the older, and therefore had the greatest responsibility to refrain from being a dick. Alas, he failed. And his entire life was changed as a result, and not for the better.

Zimmerman should have continued driving his truck. Martin was unlikely to steal anything. Zimmerman could have just left a message with the cops.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 03, 2015, 03:22:46 PM
What Zimmerman did or didn't do is largely irrelevant at this point.  Fact is, he was attacked,  and without his firearm, would likely have been permanently injured, if not killed.  He hadn't pulled it, he hadn't brandished it, he wasn't looking to hurt anyone.  The judicial system agreed.  Yet another life saved with the use of a firearm
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 03, 2015, 03:59:35 PM
  The entire event matters, but when you have an ax to grind , it helps to selectively recall the details.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 03, 2015, 04:02:32 PM
Another life lost because of some ijit and his gun.

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 03, 2015, 04:18:19 PM
Another life lost because of some ijit and his gun.

How can you blame the gun?

Everything except Mr. Zimmerman's survival could have happened without it.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 03, 2015, 04:25:34 PM
I blame Zimmerman for being a total fool and  appointing himself as a vigilante. He was protecting no one, he was looking for trouble. If he had not been packing heat, perhaps he would have just kept on driving and left Martin and whatever he was doing, up to the cops. Martin was also an idiot.

It was not just the gun, it was the gun in the hands of a dummy looking for trouble.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 03, 2015, 04:36:28 PM
  You have3 a strange idea about his motivation.

    Neighborhood watch is not a bad idea and many communities have encouraged volunteer effort.

     Keeping a watch on the street should have made everyone safer , in theory even Mr. Martin was safer.

       But mistakes being made , it certainly was not the case that Mr. Zimmerman attacked Mr. Martin first.

         Anyone who attacks someone assumes the responsibility for the outcome at that moment, perhaps he thought he was under threat , but if he had not attacked Mr. Zimmerman for a few minutes more , the arrival of the Police that Mr. Zimmerman had called might have prevented all of the trouble.

              Why indeed did Mr. Martin attack ?
                We know he had a cell phone , why not call for help?
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 03, 2015, 05:23:44 PM
Another life lost because of some ijit and his gun.

Caused by the thug who attacked the "ijit and his gun"
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 03, 2015, 06:02:08 PM
The particular neighborhood where Zimmerman lived did NOT have neighborhood watch and Zimmerman was basically a freelance vigilante.

 I see anyone doing something suspicious in my neighborhood, I will not stop the car or get out oif it, and I will just call the cops.

Zimmerman and Martin would both be better off had this fool stayed in his damned car. I am tired of talking about this, you are too damn dumb to bother with.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 03, 2015, 06:13:15 PM
The particular neighborhood where Zimmerman lived did NOT have neighborhood watch and Zimmerman was basically a freelance vigilante.

 I see anyone doing something suspicious in my neighborhood, I will not stop the car or get out oif it, and I will just call the cops.

Zimmerman and Martin would both be better off had this fool stayed in his damned car. I am tired of talking about this, you are too damn dumb to bother with.

This might have been a mistake on his part , but I do not see it excusing an attempt at killing him.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 03, 2015, 07:23:09 PM
Precisely.  Not to mention that Zimmerman DID call the police
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 05, 2015, 11:20:12 AM
Here is how "calling the police works:
(1) call the police.
(2) wait for them to arrive.
Zimmerman did not do this.
The dispatcher told him not to confront Martin.
And then he did.
Both Zimmerman and Martin would be better off today had he simply followed this suggestion.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 05, 2015, 12:12:22 PM
There is no manual to follow, when calling the police.  Point is that Zimmerman did.  He was also attacked.   Without his firearm to defend himself he may be the one who died at the hands of his attacker.  And the Judicial system supported that scenario
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 05, 2015, 12:26:31 PM
Here is how "calling the police works:
(1) call the police.
(2) wait for them to arrive.
Zimmerman did not do this.
The dispatcher told him not to confront Martin.
And then he did.
Both Zimmerman and Martin would be better off today had he simply followed this suggestion.

There is no evidence that Mr Zimmerman attacked Mr Martin .
There may be a mistake on both sides , but this is not coming out even.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: hnumpah on July 06, 2015, 10:30:41 AM
*Sigh* Since I'm here...
There is no manual to follow, when calling the police.  Point is that Zimmerman did.  He was also attacked.   Without his firearm to defend himself he may be the one who died at the hands of his attacker.  And the Judicial system supported that scenario

If I remember correctly, the only 'evidence' of Zimmerman being attacked were some injuries and his own statement...no one saw this alleged attack, or could say whether or not Zimmerman himself initiated the altercation. The only other direct witness was, conveniently for Zimmerman, dead.

There is no evidence that Mr Zimmerman attacked Mr Martin .
There may be a mistake on both sides , but this is not coming out even.

There is also no evidence he did not attack Martin. And no witnesses to substantiate either version. Barring that, the jury was stuck having to accept Zimmerman's version.

I support gun rights. I support 'stand your ground'. Most of all, I support telling the whole truth, not slanting it to support some agenda.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 06, 2015, 12:05:51 PM
Welcome hack, H.  Nice to see an old saloon friend, and hope your visit can be extended. 

IIRC there was an entire judicial process that corroborated the events, as Zimmerman statements originally described.  Nor do I believe that Martin would have backed up Zimmerman's account either.  I don't believe either myself of Plane are slanting anything to support some agenda.  Speaking for myself, I'm simply acknowledging that the courts didn't find Zimmerman as the aggressor in any way.  True, that there was no "hard evidence", merely that the circumstantial evidence, including not just injuries, but I believe an eye witness did see Martin on top of Zimmerman, backed up those original statements.  Much like the Missouri shooting, nothing there is pushing some agenda. 

The folks pushing an agenda would be those who couldn't wait to make it all about race
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 06, 2015, 02:43:46 PM

If I remember correctly, the only 'evidence' of Zimmerman being attacked were some injuries and his own statement...no one saw this alleged attack, or could say whether or not Zimmerman himself initiated the altercation. The only other direct witness was, conveniently for Zimmerman, dead.

...............

There is also no evidence he did not attack Martin. And no witnesses to substantiate either version. Barring that, the jury was stuck having to accept Zimmerman's version.

I support gun rights. I support 'stand your ground'. Most of all, I support telling the whole truth, not slanting it to support some agenda.


I do not think that the "stand your ground" law was involved in this incident.

If Mr Zimmerman might have attacked first , how would he have done this?

It makes no sense that he might have attacked with his gun, then he would have no injury.

Mr Martin had only a single injury , no marks from punches , kicks or holds.

That Mr Zimmerman had injuries and had no time to self inflict them , does strike me as significant.

If the gun had been brandished , the struggle would have been entirely over the gun .

The evidence is not so complete that it produces certainty, but the preponderance of what became provable was consistent with Mr. Zimmerman's first statement.

Since that time Mr Zimmerman has put up with a lot of vilification and even a little stalking , but even so he is most likely better off having had his gun than not.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 06, 2015, 10:29:58 PM
Look: had this fool just stayed in his fucking truck and driven home and left Martin alone, Martin would be alive, and Zimmerman would not be leading the rather miserable life that is now his lot.  He did not need his damned gun to drive around and observe the neighborhood. He was the wrong guy to do this anyway, because he was a hothead and a dipshit.

Martin was also a hothead and a dipshit, but younger so he had a better excuse.

Perhaps is Zimmerman was not armed, he would have done the right thing and stayed in his moving truck. 
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 06, 2015, 10:59:48 PM
Why you keep harping on what he could have done, is moot.  He could have slept in....he could have gone miniature golfing....he could have sat and binge watched Breaking Bad.  Coulda/woulda/shoulda....matters not.  What matters are the facts of what DID happen, and the courts have supported Zimmerman's account of what happened.  And he's still alive due to the fact he defended himself with a firearm

And this had noting with Stand Your Ground, either
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 06, 2015, 11:49:13 PM
Look: had this fool just stayed in his fucking truck and driven home and left Martin alone, Martin would be alive, and Zimmerman would not be leading the rather miserable life that is now his lot.  He did not need his damned gun to drive around and observe the neighborhood. He was the wrong guy to do this anyway, because he was a hothead and a dipshit.

Martin was also a hothead and a dipshit, but younger so he had a better excuse.

Perhaps is Zimmerman was not armed, he would have done the right thing and stayed in his moving truck.

You really mean that approaching a stranger in your own neighborhood is unforgivable?
Or that just getting out of your car anywhere but your own house is grounds for execution?

I see this position as poorly thought out.

If Mr. Martin had been too polite to knock Mr. Zimmerman down and beat his head onto the pavement , this would have been an exceedingly minor incident leaving both alive and perhaps earning an apology for each other being suspicious of each other.

One of these guys might or might not have been impolite, the other one definitely did assault, that is not an even distribution of responsibility.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 07, 2015, 03:59:37 PM
It is not unforgivable, it is stupid.
He was looking for trouble and so was Martin. And Zimmerman should have known that, but he was simply stupid.


If Zimmerman were here talking about this, he would agree that he was stupid.
He would be better off today had he been LESS stupid.

I bet you and probably even sirs are not so stupid as to go driving around playing vigilante.
 You have a right to dress in a gorilla suit and parade about the Mall.
But is is also stupid, albeit more amusing to the passersby.
Now sirs can chime in that gorilla suit wearing is not a fundamental right guaranteed by the sacred Constitution and thre Federalist Papers.

And that would also be stupid. Gorilla suit wearing is not mentioned by the US Constitution, and I doubt that there is an actual law against it.
It might be disorderly conduct if the Mall Cops lacked a sense of humor.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Plane on July 07, 2015, 04:46:25 PM
  In political circumstances a gorilla suit might be first amendment protected speech.

    But wearing a mask into a bank is not .

   Walking or driving along ones own streets and sidewalks should not be contrary to anyone's rights.

   I have not actually worn a gorilla suit ever.

     But I have joined an impromptu posse that chased down a burglar.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 07, 2015, 06:06:46 PM
Wearing a gorilla suit is stupid. Like confronting some guy walking about your neighborhood.
I would refrain from either. And I am sure that now Zimmerman is aware that he did something stupid.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 07, 2015, 06:40:57 PM
Coming across "some guy" in the neighborhood isn't stupid.  I came across "some guy" yesterday myself.  I was walking my dog, and upon coming up to him, he came across as very pleasant & neighborly. 

Unless of course you're implying Martin was dressed and acting like a thug.  Is THAT what you're implying??
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 07, 2015, 08:22:56 PM
Martin was wearing a hoodie. I was not implying anything. ON TV the bad guys and neighborhood thugs generally wear hoodies. He had it pulled up because it was raining, I suppose.

I would have just driven on by. I am pretty sure Zimmerman wished=s that is what he did as well. This incident did him no good.


But both of these fools were looking for trouble, and both if them found it.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 08, 2015, 12:08:51 AM
Martin was wearing a hoodie. I was not implying anything. ON TV the bad guys and neighborhood thugs generally wear hoodies. He had it pulled up because it was raining, I suppose.

You're making no sense.  If he was dressed appropriately, then it wasn't stupid for Zimmerman, who lives in the neighborhood, to approach a stranger.  Maybe he's lost.  Maybe he's looking for someone specific. 

If, on the other hand, you're implying that Martin was dressed like a thug, then you might have a point about Zimmerman approaching an apparent hoodlum.....if that's what you're trying to imply


I would have just driven on by.

Good for you.


But both of these fools were looking for trouble, and both if them found it.

Again, how is being a focused observer of one's neighborhood "looking for trouble"??  Again, that makes no sense.  So, anyone that approaches anyone else in their neighborhood is "looking for trouble"??  When I came across that gentleman the other day while walking my dog, I was "looking for trouble"??  Seriously??    :o
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 08, 2015, 10:41:33 AM
We know he was looking for trouble because he found trouble. There is a recording of what they said.

Go on, you silly schmuck, go out and play armed neighborhood vigilante, if you think Zimmerman was so fucking cool.

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 08, 2015, 11:40:49 AM
I don't think anyone is cool.......You just aren't making any sense.  You're literally implying that no one should ever approach anyone else....ever.  Especially if they're wearing a hoodie, because then they are obviously up to no good.  Because at that point, they must be "looking for trouble", per your inferrence

You must lead a very lonely life
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 08, 2015, 12:18:16 PM
No one should go out at night as a self-appointed vigilante with the attitude that Zimmerman had. And I am sure that Zimmerman would agree that he fucked up hisa life for at least several years.  I encourage you to go out a-cruising and to personally confront any hoodie wearing Black guys you see and interrogate them about what they are doing on your sacred turf. Go on, you have the guns and the idiot attitude to become the next Zimmerman.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 08, 2015, 12:50:48 PM
You have no fricken clue what Zimmerman's attitude or intentions were.  You keep conveniently ignoring that Zimmerman had a CCW long before this incident.  He'd been approaching people for years, not to mention this didn't happen in the dead of night either.  So we're back to your initial irrational implication. ...that no one should ever approach anyone else, because of course you must be looking for trouble. ....per the Professor
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 08, 2015, 01:31:43 PM
Just go forth and replicate Zimmerman. Clearly the world needs more vigilantes with bad attitudes.

Dumb fucker ruined his life with this stupid episode, and I am sure he knows this now.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 08, 2015, 01:41:52 PM
I replicate Zimmerman every fricken day, as far as approaching people.  You're apparently the person with the hoodlum assumptions,  if wearing a hoodie i guess
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 08, 2015, 01:52:09 PM
You actually walk up to people and ask them what they are doing on YOUR turf?

I wave at the neighbors and they wave back. I interact with people that look friendly and pretty much ignore those who don't.
And no one gives me a hard time.

Again, Zimmerman himself is no longer prowling around at night, confronting people. Why do you think that is? He clearly has the right to do this?
Could it be that he has learned his lesson?
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 08, 2015, 02:10:03 PM
You actually walk up to people and ask them what they are doing on YOUR turf?

No, and ...THAT'S NOT WHAT ZIMMERMAN DID EITHER
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 09, 2015, 08:00:07 AM
That is precisely what he did.

Maybe he did not use the word "turf".

If Zimmerman was such a fucking great guy doing the right thing, then why isnlt he still out there on patrol, saving the world from crazed Negroes in hoodies?

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 09, 2015, 11:48:33 AM
That is precisely what he did.

No, that's what your revisionist made up little mind has come up with to try and justify the outrageous comments you're making now


Maybe he did not use the word "turf".

From what the court case has produced, he never said anything, much less something so provocative.  IIRC, the Court case seems to have indicated that it was Martin that jumped out at him, making demands, just before he started his attack on Zimmerman


If Zimmerman was such a fucking great guy doing the right thing, then why isnlt he still out there on patrol, saving the world from crazed Negroes in hoodies?

Because race-baiters, such as Sharpton & Holder pretty much put a target on him, so now he's literally having to look over his shoulder at all times, thanks to the reckless claims that this was all race induced
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 09, 2015, 12:17:28 PM
Yeah, blame Al Sharpton..
Why not blame Farrakhan as well?

Zimmy will never be a cop as he had wanted to be. He screwed up, and surely he knows it.
You, being less bright than even the rather dim Zimmy, keep beating this dead horse to death, But it has been dead for a long time already.

You don't go out patrolling, you just like shooting your stupid mouth off.
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 09, 2015, 01:33:47 PM
Yeah, blame Al Sharpton..
Why not blame Farrakhan as well?

Blame them for race baiting?...race hustling?...stoking racial tension even when race was never a factor?  Absolutely he can be included


You don't go out patrolling, you just like shooting your stupid mouth off.

Zimmerman wasn't "patrolling" either.  Thankfully however, his life was saved by the use of his firearm, while his attacker won't be attacking anyone else.  And the Courts agreed
Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on July 09, 2015, 03:14:52 PM
Zimmerman will never play vigilante again. He has learned his lesson. But you, you are too fucking lamebrained.

Title: Re: Living with Guns...The Swiss Way
Post by: sirs on July 09, 2015, 03:17:22 PM
Minus the fact he was never playing vigilante in the 1st place.  He was playing how do I defend myself.  Alas, you have embraced yourself in an umbrella of ignorance to keep spewing deflective nonsense.  As long as it makes you feel better, go for it